Why Cruise Ships are My Favorite Remote Work Location(tynan.com)
tynan.com
Why Cruise Ships are My Favorite Remote Work Location
http://tynan.com/cruisework
318 comments
I'm gently surprised SO hasn't done a 6 month torrent of a stand-alone locally searchable SO. They could possibly do a monthly subscription download?
That'd help the people wanting to turn off the Internet.
EDIT: And, if you really need it, you can get Internet on a ship. It's hideously expensive, but that's okay. You just need to think before going online.
That'd help the people wanting to turn off the Internet.
EDIT: And, if you really need it, you can get Internet on a ship. It's hideously expensive, but that's okay. You just need to think before going online.
We release an XML data dump every 3 months. It'd only be a bit of work to make it presentable and load it into something searchable. http://www.clearbits.net/creators/146-stack-exchange-data-du...
In fact, that work has already been done:
http://stackapps.com/questions/3610/stackdump-an-offline-bro...
If someone could make this into an Android app with wifi hotspot functionality that would be awesome.
This actually sounds quite interesting. I might just go and do it. The question is, will SO approve?
Edit: I'm guessing SO probably won't have an issue with it.
Edit: I'm guessing SO probably won't have an issue with it.
I wouldn't mind doing that, but not what sure you mean with "wifi hotspot functionality"?
I'm not sure what the original poster had in mind, but what I'm guessing (and what I would want) is making it a web UI so access could be shared easily to other people or devices.
I took it to mean "put it on your phone and let the phone serve it"
Yep, this. So I hit a button in the app, fire up the laptop and enter a url like 146.162.0.9:2020 to browse the offline stackoverflow.
An example of similar hotspotting would be the ftp app on f-droid.
An example of similar hotspotting would be the ftp app on f-droid.
> at least 20-30GB of space
What would be good would be if there was an easy way to filter the local database for specific tags before putting it on the phone.
What would be good would be if there was an easy way to filter the local database for specific tags before putting it on the phone.
Why not just server it on your laptop, locally?
I have used this iPhone app while programming on the trans-siberian express:
https://itunes.apple.com/de/app/stackstash-stackoverflow-off...
It works but the experience is terrible. I'd be happy to throw money at a better app, in case anyone here is bored... :)
https://itunes.apple.com/de/app/stackstash-stackoverflow-off...
It works but the experience is terrible. I'd be happy to throw money at a better app, in case anyone here is bored... :)
Could it be converted into a ZIM?
http://www.openzim.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.openzim.org/wiki/Main_Page
Thank you. Stack Overflow is like the wikipedia of tech knowledge.
I know of at least one shop that does most of their work offline and keeps a local SO cache for exactly this purpose.
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It would be really nice to be able to easily download whole (or parts) websites for offline use. One thing is SO, but maybe you also want the API of some specific library or language, some specific Wikipedia articles or whole topics on Wikipedia... does something like this exist?
The Algarve rocks for work, surfing, sunny weather...and not much else ;-)
Might head down for the winter again, would be my my 4th I think, and I still only grok about 5% of the language (Brazilian Portuguese is worlds easier for me to comprehend).
My remote work setup is simple: rent an apartment with high speed internet for a few months and dive in.
Might head down for the winter again, would be my my 4th I think, and I still only grok about 5% of the language (Brazilian Portuguese is worlds easier for me to comprehend).
My remote work setup is simple: rent an apartment with high speed internet for a few months and dive in.
Would you mind sharing how expensive is to live in the Algarve? (i.e. renting an apartment, food, etc.) I only been there (Faro) as a tourist.
In the off-season, quite cheap, can rent an apartment for 300-500 euros per month, with high speed internet.
Finding that apartment is the tricky bit, you have to dig around on the net -- odd given that there are great swaths of empty apartments everywhere down there in the winter, which is of course the best time to be there, 16-18C, warm-ish water, etc.
Finding that apartment is the tricky bit, you have to dig around on the net -- odd given that there are great swaths of empty apartments everywhere down there in the winter, which is of course the best time to be there, 16-18C, warm-ish water, etc.
Can I ask how you spend per day in Lanzarote? We were just there for a weekend and "splurged" on an €88/night property, but it seemed like we could have done just fine at €30–40/night. What an interesting place.
Probably around 50 EUR last time I was there, at a decent 3* all inclusive. In Portugal I was paying 60EUR a night half board at a five star.
I agree completely on the internet access. Very hard to work through issues without online resources nowadays. How did we do it before there was such great online help like StackExchange?
Last year, I spent about six months without regular Internet access. It was fascinating watching my muscle memory adjust, and it got me thinking about how I worked in the past. Not just StackOverflow (which I don't find very useful for what I do), but the tendency to immediately google for a library, or current papers on a class of algorithms, or a piece of code I can study to see the preferred idiom for something.
In some ways I was more productive than before, but I tended to reuse less code, and use less sophisticated algorithms and data structures to solve problems. Having good code around to read became a lot more important, as did having access to good books, and good man pages. (It reminded me why I loved OpenBSD so much in the 90s)
The most positive thing that came out of it was reading a lot more code; I realized one of the habits that had diminished most since sometime in the last decade was the habit of reading the source code for something when I had a problem with it, instead of immediately googling it.
It made me think that maybe younger programmers should try working without a connection now and then (say, for a week at a time). Also that open source has really changed things; there's so much stuff that I don't even think about writing myself now, because I know someone out there has already written and open sourced.
In some ways I was more productive than before, but I tended to reuse less code, and use less sophisticated algorithms and data structures to solve problems. Having good code around to read became a lot more important, as did having access to good books, and good man pages. (It reminded me why I loved OpenBSD so much in the 90s)
The most positive thing that came out of it was reading a lot more code; I realized one of the habits that had diminished most since sometime in the last decade was the habit of reading the source code for something when I had a problem with it, instead of immediately googling it.
It made me think that maybe younger programmers should try working without a connection now and then (say, for a week at a time). Also that open source has really changed things; there's so much stuff that I don't even think about writing myself now, because I know someone out there has already written and open sourced.
" How did we do it before there was such great online help like StackExchange?"
Books. And if you were lucky you would buy 2 or 3 so you could triangulate something that didn't make sense. At least that is what I did.
Also plenty of trying and iteration.
Try this.
Try that.
For hours on end. (Not sure by your question if you had done this or were just asking btw.).
When I bought a Unix system (mid 80's) it came with a bound set of maybe 10 manuals iirc. Getting other books was difficult I had to drive miles to a University bookstore to even find anything on Unix or C. Software wasn't free of course. It cost real dollars and was pretty expensive and came on floppies.
Books. And if you were lucky you would buy 2 or 3 so you could triangulate something that didn't make sense. At least that is what I did.
Also plenty of trying and iteration.
Try this.
Try that.
For hours on end. (Not sure by your question if you had done this or were just asking btw.).
When I bought a Unix system (mid 80's) it came with a bound set of maybe 10 manuals iirc. Getting other books was difficult I had to drive miles to a University bookstore to even find anything on Unix or C. Software wasn't free of course. It cost real dollars and was pretty expensive and came on floppies.
I hear you, and that's how I learned. :-) But I find it much tougher on the topics I'm learning today. Perhaps it's because the old stuff is hard wired because it needs to be, but I keep less of the new topics in long term memory because I can outsource that storage to Google?
Yeah the memory thing is a problem for sure. I've noticed that and it worries me.
A few years ago I built this php/mysql just to store things that I learned or figured out (correct syntax for rsync might be an example) so I wouldn't have to re google them. [1] But now what I'm seeing is that most things can be found by google quicker than in the format I am using the db for. (But it's still helpful because I can cut paste and edit). I also use a wiki to keep track of what I have found that is helpful. Putting something in the wiki seems to help a little.
My point is in the past there would have been much more memorization reinforcement (see [1] below) than today. My brain is totally getting lazy because it knows the answer is right at my fingertips one way or another. When I used to do the 3x5 cards [1] I typed it up, printed it, reduced it, pasted it and the act of creating and using those "flash" cards made me memorize the answers.
The other problem is the flood of information. To many cool and interesting things to test out and get the hang of. I remember back when I tried C for the first time (don't even think there was c++). Could work with that for a long time since there wasn't really anything else to play with. [2]
[1] Old way of doing this used to be 3x5 cards or those 8.5 x 11 plastic (can't think of the actual word for it) cheat sheets like "Unix Quick Reference". See: http://www.bookdepository.com/Unix-Inc-Barcharts/97815722239...
[2] I'm not a programmer but I do some programming to help with what I do. And have been doing it for a long time. So perhaps if I was doing this full time and my needs were different (instead of intermittent) this would be less of an issue for me.
A few years ago I built this php/mysql just to store things that I learned or figured out (correct syntax for rsync might be an example) so I wouldn't have to re google them. [1] But now what I'm seeing is that most things can be found by google quicker than in the format I am using the db for. (But it's still helpful because I can cut paste and edit). I also use a wiki to keep track of what I have found that is helpful. Putting something in the wiki seems to help a little.
My point is in the past there would have been much more memorization reinforcement (see [1] below) than today. My brain is totally getting lazy because it knows the answer is right at my fingertips one way or another. When I used to do the 3x5 cards [1] I typed it up, printed it, reduced it, pasted it and the act of creating and using those "flash" cards made me memorize the answers.
The other problem is the flood of information. To many cool and interesting things to test out and get the hang of. I remember back when I tried C for the first time (don't even think there was c++). Could work with that for a long time since there wasn't really anything else to play with. [2]
[1] Old way of doing this used to be 3x5 cards or those 8.5 x 11 plastic (can't think of the actual word for it) cheat sheets like "Unix Quick Reference". See: http://www.bookdepository.com/Unix-Inc-Barcharts/97815722239...
[2] I'm not a programmer but I do some programming to help with what I do. And have been doing it for a long time. So perhaps if I was doing this full time and my needs were different (instead of intermittent) this would be less of an issue for me.
Stop cutting and pasting and start typing. I try to copy from memory, but even writing it out while looking at the original still seems to help retention.
I actually do do that almost always. Habit started with books actually. Exactly true as far as learning and retention.
Noting even that when learning php somethings that I cut and pasted had weird invisible embedded characters that caused things to fail [1]. That was actually a pretty good learning experience trying to take something that appeared correct character by character and figure out why it wasn't working by stripping things down the the basics.
[1] Might have been on w3schools or something like that.
Noting even that when learning php somethings that I cut and pasted had weird invisible embedded characters that caused things to fail [1]. That was actually a pretty good learning experience trying to take something that appeared correct character by character and figure out why it wasn't working by stripping things down the the basics.
[1] Might have been on w3schools or something like that.
You're being generous about it being laziness. I'm blaming my own on old age. :-)
But seriously, there are pros and cons with this. On the one hand, by outsourcing certain aspects of memory, we can hold much more. It's kind of like learning to call APIs rather than re-writing everything from scratch. On the other hand, I believe that instant recall has it's advantages. (I think our generation can do math approximations in our head faster than the current generation, and that's an advantage)
But seriously, there are pros and cons with this. On the one hand, by outsourcing certain aspects of memory, we can hold much more. It's kind of like learning to call APIs rather than re-writing everything from scratch. On the other hand, I believe that instant recall has it's advantages. (I think our generation can do math approximations in our head faster than the current generation, and that's an advantage)
I keep searching for stuff and finding old blog posts of mine I wrote after the first time I solved the problem...
and have little or no memory of writing... that happened to me only a few weeks ago. Pretty darn scary.
We read the source code, reverse-engineered existing applications and hardware, wrote test harnesses, and implemented things ourselves. :-)
Think of the value added by StackExchange and other websites. The amount of efficiency the Internet has created is incredible.
I now find a lot of better answers through Github issues and personal blogs. I should remember to search Github code when I'm stuck trying to figure something out.
The point is similar though - need the cheap internet connection on both.
Books and Usenet.
As the article mentions, there is internet, it's just expensive. And big downloads can be done at an internet cafe in port.
What kind of stuff do you work on where you need to pull gems so frequently? Why do people need so many external libraries?
Over the last week I moved http://www.thebigeat.com/uk from PHP to Rails. That uses Geocoder, Carrierwave, Stripe, gmaps4rails, FriendlyId and Rakismet. I use Gems because they do what I need to be done. When they don't then I roll my own - I used to use Devise, but hacking around it just became inflexible and more work than my own.
Cruise ships are also an amazing alternative to nursing homes.
I did some work for p&o cruises, on a ship that focused on round the world trips. These was one old lady there in her 80s who had swapped a nursing home for the ship - and had been there for 3 years or so. The food was incredible, she had diffent company every night due to other guests coming and going, was treated like royalty by the crew (unlike normal nursing home residents), and had an onboard doctor and nurse when needed. And all this was cheaper than any nursing home. Inspired idea.
I did some work for p&o cruises, on a ship that focused on round the world trips. These was one old lady there in her 80s who had swapped a nursing home for the ship - and had been there for 3 years or so. The food was incredible, she had diffent company every night due to other guests coming and going, was treated like royalty by the crew (unlike normal nursing home residents), and had an onboard doctor and nurse when needed. And all this was cheaper than any nursing home. Inspired idea.
Probably about the same cost, according to snopes - http://www.snopes.com/travel/trap/retire.asp
They are also similarly priced, there was a discussion of this earlier this year on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5806006
This is an insanely great idea. Cruise ships are incredibly quiet places. the lack of internet/expensive internet is a forcing function. Great way for co founders to spend time together if they're normally in different locations. We might just do this for a big push. Transatlantic cruises are very, very cheap and not crowded; and since it's not incredibly warm outside there's an added incentive to work. :)
Another benefit: take your spouses/partners; so long as they are able to let you work during the day while they hit the gym/spa/bingo etc. Everyone wins.
Only danger I see is eating too much.
Another benefit: take your spouses/partners; so long as they are able to let you work during the day while they hit the gym/spa/bingo etc. Everyone wins.
Only danger I see is eating too much.
To the eating part; if you aren't on "vacation" the gyms on cruise ships are ghost towns usually. Good way to fight to free food factor.
yes. also another tip I got that worked the last time we did a big family cruise: never take the elevators, always take the stairs. On at sea days we made it a point to walk at least 3 miles on the track outside on the ship. Managed not to gain any weight, which I counted as a win.
Most of the repositioning cruises are in November or April, which probably won't work for any employees with kids in school. I don't think you could make this mandatory if you have any employees with kids.
If it's not mandatory then you're splitting your team up for 1-3 weeks.
If it's not mandatory then you're splitting your team up for 1-3 weeks.
neither my co-founder nor I have kids. so it could work out well. not every technique has to work for everyone.
Some startups demand you travel for 2 weeks a year for "hackathons" in remote locations. I don't see the difference.
Some startups demand you travel for 2 weeks a year for "hackathons" in remote locations. I don't see the difference.
In my humble opinion, this is a shitty idea. There are other quiet places with decent enough bandwidth that don't have the costs or risks of a cruise ship. My favorite one is the study section of the local library. I've also gone out to a cabin in the woods that only had a satellite link. My neighbor has soundproof walk-in closet.
As for the risks of a cruise ship, if something goes wrong, your options are limited. I say this as a navy veteran that's had to deal with multiple things that go wrong on a ocean vessel. (Fire, flooding, engine failure, etc...) As a civilian, I'm very wary of cruises.
As for the risks of a cruise ship, if something goes wrong, your options are limited. I say this as a navy veteran that's had to deal with multiple things that go wrong on a ocean vessel. (Fire, flooding, engine failure, etc...) As a civilian, I'm very wary of cruises.
A better option, in my opinion, is an all-inclusive resort. My preference is Mexico. After going recently, my main takeaway was how nice life would be if everything were always taken care of for me -- cleaning, food, etc. It's going to cost more than a cruise, but cruises have all sorts of hidden/surprise fees that you don't have at a good all-inclusive resort. Our resort was calm, peaceful and full of couples, no rowdy partiers. Good internet access, the highest quality service imaginable, and some of the best restaurants I've ever experienced (where you can order whatever you want without the stress of worrying about cost!). If you go during low season, you can get a great rate, and some rain shouldn't bother you if you're there to work.
Our resort was calm, peaceful and full of couples, no rowdy partiers.
That reminds me of a funny experience I had in Cancun a few years back in Cancun. My wife booked a room at the all-inclusive Temptation resort because it had the best rate. When we got there, we were surprised to find that it was basically clothing optional. Be sure to check out the hotel website first if you want to avoid distractions!
That reminds me of a funny experience I had in Cancun a few years back in Cancun. My wife booked a room at the all-inclusive Temptation resort because it had the best rate. When we got there, we were surprised to find that it was basically clothing optional. Be sure to check out the hotel website first if you want to avoid distractions!
What resort did you go to? Mind if I ask what the approx. costs where?
http://www.occidentalhotels.com/resort/royal-hideaway-playac...
I booked it through Costcotravel.com. It's much cheaper in the low season. Paid $325/night total including tax; that's for two people and it included round-trip airport transfers ($120 value). If we were to have a dinner experience like what they offer in the US, it would easily run $300+ each time.
I booked it through Costcotravel.com. It's much cheaper in the low season. Paid $325/night total including tax; that's for two people and it included round-trip airport transfers ($120 value). If we were to have a dinner experience like what they offer in the US, it would easily run $300+ each time.
Add to that Turkey and Greece.
What kind of risks do you have on a cruise ship that you do not have in everyday life traffic, public places and outdoor activities ? Statistically, your cabin in the woods with nobody around is probably an order of magnitude more dangerous than a cruise ship ;)
Getting sick is a big one.
How many people die per 1,000 passenger miles?
Not really the right comparison, since you're not using the cruise for transportation.
Better question might be deaths/injuries/etc per day, as compared to living in a city, a cabin in the woods, etc.
Better question might be deaths/injuries/etc per day, as compared to living in a city, a cabin in the woods, etc.
What things can go wrong on a cruise ship that are very bad for people onboard? Isn't a life boat just a short run away?
I thought I'd share an interesting segment from Tina Fey's book regarding her honeymoon cruise when a fire broke out on the boat.
"In the event of an emergency, it is the entertainers who are in charge of the lifeboats. Because the rest of the crew has actual nautical duties, the kids from Fiesta Caliente are trained to man the lifeboats. If you ever have to get on a lifeboat, the person in charge of your safety will likely be a nineteen-year-old dancer from Tampa who just had a fight with his boyfriend about the new Rihanna video. James also told me that each lifeboat has a gun on it and that once a lifeboat is in the water, the performer–lifeboat captain is trained to shoot anyone who is disruptive. This is apparently legal in accordance with maritime law."
"In the event of an emergency, it is the entertainers who are in charge of the lifeboats. Because the rest of the crew has actual nautical duties, the kids from Fiesta Caliente are trained to man the lifeboats. If you ever have to get on a lifeboat, the person in charge of your safety will likely be a nineteen-year-old dancer from Tampa who just had a fight with his boyfriend about the new Rihanna video. James also told me that each lifeboat has a gun on it and that once a lifeboat is in the water, the performer–lifeboat captain is trained to shoot anyone who is disruptive. This is apparently legal in accordance with maritime law."
I worked on a cruise ship as an entertainer and can confirm this. Except for the gun part. We had lifeboat assignments and had drills each cycle before the passengers arrived. We were trained on getting people in, not what to do once in the water.
[deleted]
Wide-spread gastro-intestinal illnesses -
google "cruise" and "norovirus"
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm
It is important to distinguish among cruise outcomes - I'd rather experience a 24-36 hour power outage than a fire that resulted in passengers at sea in lifeboats, but there appear to be some narratives that conflate "our honeymoon was not what I had dreamed of" with "captured, burned, sunk, and destroyed" without any points on a scale in between.
Third party advice I'd heard on cruising:
avoid the very cheapest lines
choose an operator with a generally nordic background (not flag/registration, more company origin).
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm
It is important to distinguish among cruise outcomes - I'd rather experience a 24-36 hour power outage than a fire that resulted in passengers at sea in lifeboats, but there appear to be some narratives that conflate "our honeymoon was not what I had dreamed of" with "captured, burned, sunk, and destroyed" without any points on a scale in between.
Third party advice I'd heard on cruising:
avoid the very cheapest lines
choose an operator with a generally nordic background (not flag/registration, more company origin).
No power for 3-4 days.
Google "cruise ship no power", it happens more often than you'd think
That means
-no showers
- no toilets flushing.
- No internet
- no hot meals
That means
-no showers
- no toilets flushing.
- No internet
- no hot meals
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fire-carnival-cruis...
Oh god, that sounds nightmarish.
Oh god, that sounds nightmarish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Concordia
or if you're of a different age:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic
or if you're of a different age:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic
Things can also go wrong sleeping in your bed at night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_fransisco_earthquake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_fransisco_earthquake
read the comment to which I replied. it will put it in context.
2 incidents in 100 years, seems safe...
Those are only the two he mentioned off the top of his head.
And how many planes come down per year ? The probability of something like that is extremely low. Life is risky, you also have a theoretical risk of dying of a heart attack every second.
Norovirus.
Norovirus by itself is enough to keep me off cruise ships. http://www.cdc.gov/features/norovirus/
Going to the library doesn't get your room cleaned and our meals prepared.
The whole point of the suggestion is that a Cruise is an entire package of benefits.
The whole point of the suggestion is that a Cruise is an entire package of benefits.
Wow, I don't think this would have ever occurred to me, but it's genius!
I can go from London to San Juan in 14 days, for about £32 / day. That's cheaper than life at home.
Think I'm gonna book myself a cruise soon
Edit: Just exploring this guy's blog, and it turns out he's Herbal from "The Game" - an excellent book if you've not read it.
I can go from London to San Juan in 14 days, for about £32 / day. That's cheaper than life at home.
Think I'm gonna book myself a cruise soon
Edit: Just exploring this guy's blog, and it turns out he's Herbal from "The Game" - an excellent book if you've not read it.
That was a terrible book! You might as well read Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
I've not read RDPD, but unless I'm mistaken isn't it a self help type book? (in the vein of 4HWW). Where as The Game a novel, you can't really learn to pick up women from reading it, so not sure they can be compared.
They are both self-help books disguised as pseudobiographies. They both make overt and covert attempts to direct the reader to buying more of the author's products, or at least buy into the author's bullshit. They are both filled with the kind of empty rhetoric that, in the wrong hands, are capable of ruining someone's life. They have both found the bottom of my trash bin. Perhaps I'm just bitter, but still, readers beware!
The Game isn't a novel, it's an account of the author's experience in the so-called seduction community. It's arguable as to whether you could learn how to "pick up" women from it, whatever that means. (it's not an instruction manual) It is a decent read though, Strauss is a talented author.
True, I didn't mean literally a novel, just that it reads like one (as opposed to a self-help book). I thoroughly enjoyed it, I quite like some of Strauss' other books too.
Does this include meals etc. ? Where did you find it ? Seems like a great idea indeed
"Frankly, if you're not into bingo and ballroom dancing, you may find there's not much for you to do on the ship other than work or read."
What is happening to people? When you are insulating yourself from nearly every aspect of day-to-day normality just to be able to concentrate without distraction there is a problem and it's likely you are working to much. I'm all up for travelling but this just seems like an easy way to remove yourself from the world to get more done. Why not just check into a mental health clinic with a wifi dongle - you won't have to cook or clean and they'll be perfectly equipped to deal with you once the monumental burnout hits.
What is happening to people? When you are insulating yourself from nearly every aspect of day-to-day normality just to be able to concentrate without distraction there is a problem and it's likely you are working to much. I'm all up for travelling but this just seems like an easy way to remove yourself from the world to get more done. Why not just check into a mental health clinic with a wifi dongle - you won't have to cook or clean and they'll be perfectly equipped to deal with you once the monumental burnout hits.
What if there's something I want to get done, and I have the time but I keep getting interrupted? I'll just go off somewhere with fewer distractions. That's what this is for.
I got the same impression from reading it as pastylegs did. To me, it sounded like the author does thing on the regular, as opposed to a one-off or rare type thing. If you have that much trouble creating a segmented space to work in your normal life, you either have too many distractions in your space, are too easily distracted, or have an unreasonable expectation of what it means to work.
Maybe they just enjoy working from a ship? The food, drink, sports and international travel are all attractive.
Lots of people sought isolation to do mental work. The writer's cabin is not a cliché by chance.
I'd agree with you if he recommended doing this constantly. But to me it seems like a great way to promote a healthy work-life balance most of the year, with infrequent work-vacations for times when you do want extreme productivity, and even a break from your social life.
This tactic seems like it could be more of a sanity-booster than anything, if applied responsibly.
This tactic seems like it could be more of a sanity-booster than anything, if applied responsibly.
OP touched on another great remote work idea: the RV. Find a smaller model in good condition and outfit it with a Verizon mobile AP and you're in business. Sadly, I didn't move into remote work until after I got married and started a family but if I was 22 again, this is how I'd do it. I'd spend my winters in South Texas, around San Antonio and Port Aransas. In the springtime, I'd head up to Southern Utah, places like Escalante and Moab where I could mountain bike and go canyoneering. In the summer, I'd head for the mountain towns: Telluride, Colorado...Aspen...Park City, Utah...Idaho...for more mountain biking and hiking. In the fall, I'd head south again and start it all over.
All of these places have easily available wifi, good food, great people, and lots to do after work. If you're smart about it, there are even nice places just outside of these towns where you can camp (< 14 days) for free and still have 4G cell service.
All of these places have easily available wifi, good food, great people, and lots to do after work. If you're smart about it, there are even nice places just outside of these towns where you can camp (< 14 days) for free and still have 4G cell service.
I think the RV is ultimately a better lifestyle. Biking, hiking, sightseeing, canyoneering, etc. appeal to me a lot more than being stuck on a ship with a sad crew and tons of vacationers.
I don't think I'd compare the two directly, though. Driving an RV is probably more expensive per-day even discounting the food and services on a ship and assuming very little depreciation on the vehicle (i.e. you got a deal used), and it's a lot more work. Between finding places to park/camp, run the generator or hook up power, empty the toilet, maintain the drivetrain, cooking, and the inevitable RV disaster-breakdowns RVing is a lot of work - a far cry from "saunter to the restaurant, pick a meal, eat it, come back to a freshly cleaned room and more food."
I don't think I'd compare the two directly, though. Driving an RV is probably more expensive per-day even discounting the food and services on a ship and assuming very little depreciation on the vehicle (i.e. you got a deal used), and it's a lot more work. Between finding places to park/camp, run the generator or hook up power, empty the toilet, maintain the drivetrain, cooking, and the inevitable RV disaster-breakdowns RVing is a lot of work - a far cry from "saunter to the restaurant, pick a meal, eat it, come back to a freshly cleaned room and more food."
Like others here, my major concern would be access to the technical resources that are freely available on the internet like StackOverflow. I was curious and consulted the StackExchange API and license. They seem to indicate it would not only possible to pull down the site's entire contents but it also would be allowed under the CC license that is used. Although judging by the various throttles in place, it would take you roughly 11 days to grab all the data. So who wants to take the plunge, write up the scripts, pull the data, and then share it with everyone else?
The work is already down regularly:
http://www.clearbits.net/creators/146-stack-exchange-data-du...
I do not know what format it is however because I have not gotten around to using it yet.
http://www.clearbits.net/creators/146-stack-exchange-data-du...
I do not know what format it is however because I have not gotten around to using it yet.
It's always friendlier to first look for an official data dump before thinking about scraping - and in this case, SO does have one[1] :)
[1]: http://www.clearbits.net/creators/146-stack-exchange-data-du...
[1]: http://www.clearbits.net/creators/146-stack-exchange-data-du...
[deleted]
I wonder if Tynan would be as gung ho about working on cruise ships if he didn't happen to be launching a cruise deal aggregator site
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around: he wouldn't be launching a cruise deal aggregator site if he weren't so gung ho about working on cruise ships. http://tynan.com/cruisesheet
Yeah... this is my 12th cruise or so now. I really love them. For a while I was going twice a year pretty regularly. The cruise aggregator started as a way for me to find the best prices (because cruisehotsheet.com went down), and I decided to try to make money with it to fund access to better cruise data.
Also... I didn't post either of these... did one of my 2 minute cruise-internet email checks and was pretty surprised to see that I was on the front page twice.
Also... I didn't post either of these... did one of my 2 minute cruise-internet email checks and was pretty surprised to see that I was on the front page twice.
Posts like this seem self-congratulatory, to me. Working in this field, we're well-compensated, and in a position of relative privilege based on that alone. Add to that the flexibility (when we have it) to not be tied down to a daily commute or an office/cube-farm, and we're living in another world entirely. We shouldn't forget this.
There is no honor in acting like you aren't privileged when you are. But moreover, cruises have a generally more glamorous image than the reality. You can often get on a cruise ship essentially for free, because they want you to spend money shopping and eating on the ship.
In case someone didn't get to the bottom of the article, the author also built Cruise Sheet, which helps you find the cheapest cruises http://cruisesheet.com/.
Perspective from David Foster Wallace - "Shipping Out: On the (nearly lethal) comforts of a luxury cruise". Also known as "A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again".
[pdf] http://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/HarpersMagazin...
However, I don't think this (somewhat critical) article should deter any would-be cruise goers, especially if you have work to engage you during the time.
[pdf] http://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/HarpersMagazin...
However, I don't think this (somewhat critical) article should deter any would-be cruise goers, especially if you have work to engage you during the time.
My personal preference is 5 day stays in cat I to IV Starwood hotels in interesting places, during lower occupancy periods, with top tier status -- ends up costing $20-100/day all-in by gaming the points system.
I tend to go full Howard Hughes (not leaving my 2-3 room suite) for a few days, do some limited local exploration, etc. I feel a lot better having a separate bedroom and office. Free breakfast and lounge means effectively unlimited food, although local restaurants, room service, etc are options.
This week I've been at the Le Meridien Bangkok, probably my favorite hotel in town, for 5000 points/night, net, which is essentially $50/night in foregone cash back on credit card purchases, or about $100/night at retail. It cost me $50 to fly here from Singapore, where I couch surfed with friends for a few days, after 10 days in Bali with the girlfriend.
Less risk of fire, norovirus, my hotel is mainly full of nice Japanese people instead of either obnoxious partier spring break types or old dying people, 50M Internet, etc.
I tend to go full Howard Hughes (not leaving my 2-3 room suite) for a few days, do some limited local exploration, etc. I feel a lot better having a separate bedroom and office. Free breakfast and lounge means effectively unlimited food, although local restaurants, room service, etc are options.
This week I've been at the Le Meridien Bangkok, probably my favorite hotel in town, for 5000 points/night, net, which is essentially $50/night in foregone cash back on credit card purchases, or about $100/night at retail. It cost me $50 to fly here from Singapore, where I couch surfed with friends for a few days, after 10 days in Bali with the girlfriend.
Less risk of fire, norovirus, my hotel is mainly full of nice Japanese people instead of either obnoxious partier spring break types or old dying people, 50M Internet, etc.
This was an interesting read. His arguments for why he likes working on a cruise ship are very much my arguments for why I prefer to vacation on a cruise ship:
(1) Internet access is "limited". I'll stick with "limited" because it's a mixed bag. It's been 5 years since I cruised, though not Mediterranean and was able to find flat rate per-day, however, the one day I broke down and purchased access I found it to be very unreliable (single shared satellite connection for the entire ship). This is the same for phone service. The last ship I was on had a ship-board cell "tower" that showed up as international and I can imagine even T-Mobile doesn't cover that in their zero roaming considering ship to shore calls were $9.00/minute from the suite. This also encourages my coworkers to think long and hard about whether or not to call me in an emergency.
(2) Everything is taken care of, including entertainment. I find it difficult to relax, even on vacation -- it's an exercise of planning what to eat, when to eat, what to see, what to do and when to do it. When "at sea", the cruise director provides a menu of what you can do and when. You pick. Very little energy is expelled in enjoying myself.
(3) When in port, same rules apply. You don't have enough time to plan some grand excursion, so you pick one or two things to do and head back. I always opt for a room with a window and have found that if the ship is oriented with me facing the shore, I can pick up free Wi-Fi from restaurants at shore for a fix (even when the ship is too big and has to be anchored at sea). This provides for a quick fix of internet and stretching.
Because there are many times of the day where there is literally nothing else to do, I find it's the only thing that slows my mind down. By day 7 or so I'm ready to be home again, and the weeks that follow my vacation are usually amazing. The time spent being forced to be alone with my thoughts results in me returning with new ideas, new ways to solve old problems and just a generally more positive outlook. It's the only vacation I take where I truly get the idea of taking time out to decompress.
(1) Internet access is "limited". I'll stick with "limited" because it's a mixed bag. It's been 5 years since I cruised, though not Mediterranean and was able to find flat rate per-day, however, the one day I broke down and purchased access I found it to be very unreliable (single shared satellite connection for the entire ship). This is the same for phone service. The last ship I was on had a ship-board cell "tower" that showed up as international and I can imagine even T-Mobile doesn't cover that in their zero roaming considering ship to shore calls were $9.00/minute from the suite. This also encourages my coworkers to think long and hard about whether or not to call me in an emergency.
(2) Everything is taken care of, including entertainment. I find it difficult to relax, even on vacation -- it's an exercise of planning what to eat, when to eat, what to see, what to do and when to do it. When "at sea", the cruise director provides a menu of what you can do and when. You pick. Very little energy is expelled in enjoying myself.
(3) When in port, same rules apply. You don't have enough time to plan some grand excursion, so you pick one or two things to do and head back. I always opt for a room with a window and have found that if the ship is oriented with me facing the shore, I can pick up free Wi-Fi from restaurants at shore for a fix (even when the ship is too big and has to be anchored at sea). This provides for a quick fix of internet and stretching.
Because there are many times of the day where there is literally nothing else to do, I find it's the only thing that slows my mind down. By day 7 or so I'm ready to be home again, and the weeks that follow my vacation are usually amazing. The time spent being forced to be alone with my thoughts results in me returning with new ideas, new ways to solve old problems and just a generally more positive outlook. It's the only vacation I take where I truly get the idea of taking time out to decompress.
I had no idea cruises were so cheap. I though they're ~$100/day. This is what it costs to get a cabin on a cargo ship.
It can be much cheaper than that to get cargo ship carriage:
http://www.flightlesstravel.com/plan/cargo-ships/
http://www.flightlesstravel.com/plan/cargo-ships/
I think many of the cruises leave on very short notice. That would bring the price way down.
The prices do not include taxes and tips. Tips are added to your bill. Taxes can easily exceed to cost of the trip.
OK, I have to be that guy. Barcelona to Casablanca is not a "transatlantic cruise".
Anyway, interesting idea if you can live without internet. Technically speaking, if you're in international waters (and not a US citizen, which is a long story), you won't even owe taxes on the work you do aboard.
Anyway, interesting idea if you can live without internet. Technically speaking, if you're in international waters (and not a US citizen, which is a long story), you won't even owe taxes on the work you do aboard.
Those could have just been two connecting ports of many.
In ship lingo it is. A trip from Florida across the Suez Canal and out to Singapore is also considered "Transatlantic".
Basically it just matters what your starting ocean is and if it's round trip or not.
Basically it just matters what your starting ocean is and if it's round trip or not.
Ugh. I meant to say Panama, and I'm wrong anyway. Derp moment. Disregard.
Thanks for coming back for that. I was scratching my head trying to figure out if there was some horrid route cruise ships took to get to the Mediterranean from Florida that involved them not going into the Atlantic.
"And then everyone gets out to help carry the ship over the Darien Gap..." or possibly,"Shackleton, the adventure."
"And then everyone gets out to help carry the ship over the Darien Gap..." or possibly,"Shackleton, the adventure."
Original author here... I wrote the post in transit between those ports. On cruises you go to a lot of ports... this particular one ends up in Florida (Florence to Florida, with 8 stops or so)
I can see how the lack of Internet is awesome for preventing you from checking Facebook / Twitter / HN all day. At the same time, I'm not sure how productive I could be without near-constant access to StackOverflow. :)
Feel like I've had my head in the sand. Dash is great - thanks
Earlier this year I wrote about how shrinking my business size down to one (me) allows me to work from trains. Specifically, I wrote that post while on board VIA Rail's The Canadian, which goes to/from Toronto to Vancouver in four days. It was awesome, and if you know where to look, these trips are always 50% off.
http://hackertourism.com/growing-by-shrinking
http://hackertourism.com/growing-by-shrinking
I totally second this...
I took the Toronto to Vancouver train in 1984, and although I understand the details of that route have changed quite a bit since, it was a wonderful experience.
95% of the trip is through wilderness, with occasional stops in small cities that seem to just spring up in the middle of nowhere (Winnipeg...). Once past Thunder Bay, the train suddenly empties out a bit, so it doesn't feel crowded, and spending all day reading, in comfortable seats, with wilderness streaming by the huge window next to you is just wonderful. I found the other passengers quite interesting—I shared my four-seat "section" with a forestry student off to work in a lumbercamp for the summer, and learned a lot of interesting stuff about Canada, and forests... :]—and the vibe was very amiable and quiet. People were friendly, but there was a distinct lack of "chatterers" and most people seemed content to do their own thing most of the time.
Because the trip took five days, and there was basically no demand on my time, it felt incredibly unrushed, and combined with constant low-level "passive" distraction in the form of scenery, the wonderful light, and the soothing motion and sounds of rail travel, it left me feeling both incredibly relaxed and oddly energetic.
Extreme long-distance train travel is generally way underrated, I think; obviously it's not ideal if you're in a hurry, but if you have a few days, it's often a treat. Although the Canadian trip was the best, I've also traveled by train from Seattle to Boston, and it was a great trip too, for many of the same reasons (Amtrak long-distance seats are just amazingly huge and comfortable though).
I took the Toronto to Vancouver train in 1984, and although I understand the details of that route have changed quite a bit since, it was a wonderful experience.
95% of the trip is through wilderness, with occasional stops in small cities that seem to just spring up in the middle of nowhere (Winnipeg...). Once past Thunder Bay, the train suddenly empties out a bit, so it doesn't feel crowded, and spending all day reading, in comfortable seats, with wilderness streaming by the huge window next to you is just wonderful. I found the other passengers quite interesting—I shared my four-seat "section" with a forestry student off to work in a lumbercamp for the summer, and learned a lot of interesting stuff about Canada, and forests... :]—and the vibe was very amiable and quiet. People were friendly, but there was a distinct lack of "chatterers" and most people seemed content to do their own thing most of the time.
Because the trip took five days, and there was basically no demand on my time, it felt incredibly unrushed, and combined with constant low-level "passive" distraction in the form of scenery, the wonderful light, and the soothing motion and sounds of rail travel, it left me feeling both incredibly relaxed and oddly energetic.
Extreme long-distance train travel is generally way underrated, I think; obviously it's not ideal if you're in a hurry, but if you have a few days, it's often a treat. Although the Canadian trip was the best, I've also traveled by train from Seattle to Boston, and it was a great trip too, for many of the same reasons (Amtrak long-distance seats are just amazingly huge and comfortable though).
I went London-Osaka by train and ferry, which was great fun, but the longest single train was two and a half days (Moscow - Shymkent) and I wouldn't've wanted it to be any longer, even travelling with a friend and a tablet. Possibly the scenery was more repetitive than yours - empty snowfields as far as the eye can see is beautiful for a day or two, but does become boring.
Yeah, there's a nice amount of variation of environments across Canada, which did help.
I was also well prepared for some isolation, with a big stack of books to read, pads of paper etc for writing on etc.
In a way I also think it was easier alone. Travelling with a friend can great fun, but to some degree it can also detract from the feeling of freedom... Because there were some friendly passengers, I never felt lonely, but I also felt completely free to stare out the window and think for hours on end. No pressure.
I was also well prepared for some isolation, with a big stack of books to read, pads of paper etc for writing on etc.
In a way I also think it was easier alone. Travelling with a friend can great fun, but to some degree it can also detract from the feeling of freedom... Because there were some friendly passengers, I never felt lonely, but I also felt completely free to stare out the window and think for hours on end. No pressure.
If somebody is blogging about their lifestyle you have to question it. Creative geniuses seem to vary in their response to distractions. Leonhard Euler claimed that he did important work with baby on knee. The inventor of the shape sorter (I forget his name) used to head off to a place of absolute quiet and stillness to conceive his inventions. John von Neumann turned the TV volume up in order to work. Go figure
Having been of a few cruises, I'd like to point out a few things:
1) Listed prices generally DO NOT include gratuities. Low level cruise employees like the cleaning crew, cabin stewards, waiters, cooks, etc. are paid ridiculously low wages, because cruise ships are registered to countries like Panama and the companies do not need to adhere to U.S. standards. I don't recall offhand, but for a 7-day cruise the "automatic" gratuity is, I believe, around $100 or so per person, so take that into consideration. You can remove the charge if you want to, but you'd have to be a pretty big asshole to do that :) Also, prices are based on double-occupancy, so if you go by yourself, double the fares.
2) Internet is expensive, slow, and charges by the minute). However, if you do this a lot, some cruise loyalty programs will give you free internet. I know Princess does this. Also, you're cell phone my work in certain locations. I'm a U.S. AT&T subscriber and I have full service in U.S. ports like San Juan and the U.S. Virgin Islands. If you can tether your phone, you'll get much faster and cheaper service that way than on the boat internet.
3) Don't get sick / injured. My wife stepped on broken glass while wearing open-toed shoes and got cut up pretty bad. The doctor on board used strips instead of stitches, and the cut reopened in two days, by which time we were already off the ship. The crew handled the incident terribly. The problem with the glass was not resolved quickly, my wife had to wait a fair amount of time for someone to show up with a wheelchair to take her to the doctor and the crew went into "don't get sued" mode really quickly. They gave us pushback when we refused to sign a liability waiver before getting treatment and we had some security guy who kept insisting to come into our room to photograph the shoes my wife was wearing at the time. When we complained the next day about the process, a nice woman sat down with us to hear out our complaint, but never really did anything. We were adamant about NOT paying for the care and it never showed up on our bill, so we let well enough alone. Three months later, they sent us a bill for $300 for the care. After we sent their HQ a letter in response, they ended up waiving the fee and giving us $100 credit towards our next cruise. Nice, but it was ridiculous in the first place since.
4) In regards to the above, had something worse happened, or they had refused to waive the fee, good luck fighting the cruise company in court. You're not only bound by typical consumer-crushing stuff like forced arbitration, but you're also getting into international legal difficulties. For big cases like the cruise that tipped over, it's worth the hassle, but for smaller claims, you're pretty limited in what you can realistically do.
All that said, I think this is a pretty cool idea and had always thought about how cruises could be a cool little work/vacation thing.
1) Listed prices generally DO NOT include gratuities. Low level cruise employees like the cleaning crew, cabin stewards, waiters, cooks, etc. are paid ridiculously low wages, because cruise ships are registered to countries like Panama and the companies do not need to adhere to U.S. standards. I don't recall offhand, but for a 7-day cruise the "automatic" gratuity is, I believe, around $100 or so per person, so take that into consideration. You can remove the charge if you want to, but you'd have to be a pretty big asshole to do that :) Also, prices are based on double-occupancy, so if you go by yourself, double the fares.
2) Internet is expensive, slow, and charges by the minute). However, if you do this a lot, some cruise loyalty programs will give you free internet. I know Princess does this. Also, you're cell phone my work in certain locations. I'm a U.S. AT&T subscriber and I have full service in U.S. ports like San Juan and the U.S. Virgin Islands. If you can tether your phone, you'll get much faster and cheaper service that way than on the boat internet.
3) Don't get sick / injured. My wife stepped on broken glass while wearing open-toed shoes and got cut up pretty bad. The doctor on board used strips instead of stitches, and the cut reopened in two days, by which time we were already off the ship. The crew handled the incident terribly. The problem with the glass was not resolved quickly, my wife had to wait a fair amount of time for someone to show up with a wheelchair to take her to the doctor and the crew went into "don't get sued" mode really quickly. They gave us pushback when we refused to sign a liability waiver before getting treatment and we had some security guy who kept insisting to come into our room to photograph the shoes my wife was wearing at the time. When we complained the next day about the process, a nice woman sat down with us to hear out our complaint, but never really did anything. We were adamant about NOT paying for the care and it never showed up on our bill, so we let well enough alone. Three months later, they sent us a bill for $300 for the care. After we sent their HQ a letter in response, they ended up waiving the fee and giving us $100 credit towards our next cruise. Nice, but it was ridiculous in the first place since.
4) In regards to the above, had something worse happened, or they had refused to waive the fee, good luck fighting the cruise company in court. You're not only bound by typical consumer-crushing stuff like forced arbitration, but you're also getting into international legal difficulties. For big cases like the cruise that tipped over, it's worth the hassle, but for smaller claims, you're pretty limited in what you can realistically do.
All that said, I think this is a pretty cool idea and had always thought about how cruises could be a cool little work/vacation thing.
He says room service is "free", which suggests that he's not tipping. Someone pointed out down thread that this guy's a pickup artist (http://www.pualingo.com/pua-profiles/herbal-tynan/), which is empirically correlated with "asshole", which in turn is correlated with "does not tip".
You realize that this "tipping culture" is not that prevalent outside the US? In many countries, especially in Europe, service and stuff is paid market wages, and there's no reason to tip by default, just when you are extremely satisfied with the service.
Does the fact that I didn't know about "tipping culture" when I was first time in the US makes me an asshole?
Does the fact that I didn't know about "tipping culture" when I was first time in the US makes me an asshole?
Tipping and basic etiquette (particularly involving dining) is one of the fundamental bits of culture everyone should research when traveling to another country.
If you are in the US and received good service, but left crappy or zero tips then yes, you definitely leave a negative impression of yourself. Nobody will understand why you left a bad tip or just think "oh, he's a foreigner, he doesn't understand." They will just think you stiffed them. Or they will perhaps think - "oh he's from country X - they must all be cheap assholes there. I hope I don't get any more tables with people from that country."
Would it not be the same if I visited your country and was rude or insulting regarding some very basic and obvious part of your culture?
If you are in the US and received good service, but left crappy or zero tips then yes, you definitely leave a negative impression of yourself. Nobody will understand why you left a bad tip or just think "oh, he's a foreigner, he doesn't understand." They will just think you stiffed them. Or they will perhaps think - "oh he's from country X - they must all be cheap assholes there. I hope I don't get any more tables with people from that country."
Would it not be the same if I visited your country and was rude or insulting regarding some very basic and obvious part of your culture?
Would it not be the same if I visited your country and was rude or insulting regarding some very basic and obvious part of your culture?
People may differ about what is "obvious." Something that doesn't exist in my country and that I've never heard of ... is not going to be "obvious" to me.
People may differ about what is "obvious." Something that doesn't exist in my country and that I've never heard of ... is not going to be "obvious" to me.
If only there were some way people going to new countries could learn the basics about where they're going. I was thinking maybe an app, but connectivity is hard when traveling, so I'm thinking maybe a book. Sort of like a FAQ or a new user's guide. Maybe we could call it a guide-book?
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g191-c3541/United-States:C...
Bullet point #1. I would consider that fairly obvious.
If you can't manage to stumble across #1 cultural tip then you obviously have not done much research. You shouldn't expect people to excuse your ignorance of their culture. That goes for any country - not just the US.
Bullet point #1. I would consider that fairly obvious.
If you can't manage to stumble across #1 cultural tip then you obviously have not done much research. You shouldn't expect people to excuse your ignorance of their culture. That goes for any country - not just the US.
>"oh he's from country X - they must all be cheap assholes there. I hope I don't get any more tables with people from that country."
This is generally what happens. I have a few friends who are bartenders/servers and they loathe Australians.
This is generally what happens. I have a few friends who are bartenders/servers and they loathe Australians.
Sorry on behalf of them! I knew about the tipping culture because my grandfather was a general manager for a branch of a US based multinational company and had to travel there a lot, and my father had traveled a bit to use scientific instruments there (like synchrotrons).
But to the average Australian - we have a very decent minimum wage and ridiculously good penalty rates (like, work a public holiday and you get double time or double time and a half). Tipping is just something that is non-existent, and I think people just don't expect that the US would treat people so much worse than we do...
But to the average Australian - we have a very decent minimum wage and ridiculously good penalty rates (like, work a public holiday and you get double time or double time and a half). Tipping is just something that is non-existent, and I think people just don't expect that the US would treat people so much worse than we do...
"...I think people just don't expect that the US would treat people so much worse than we do..." The US would be in much better shape if your expectation was correct. Sadly, many Americans [1] think that tipping is a good thing for servers because if they work hard then they'll get good tips.
[1] I've lived in the USA almost my entire life, and have never understood why "we" are "Americans" when there are many, many other countries on both American continents that aren't "Americans". Why is there not a term for us that is more accurate and less Americentric (wait, really?).
[1] I've lived in the USA almost my entire life, and have never understood why "we" are "Americans" when there are many, many other countries on both American continents that aren't "Americans". Why is there not a term for us that is more accurate and less Americentric (wait, really?).
Well, we call ourselves Americans too :) (here in South America), and we call people from the USA "Estadounidenses".
You might see on many left-wing president's speeches, they start with "Hermanos Americanos" ("American Brothers"), which definitely does NOT include the USA :P .
You might see on many left-wing president's speeches, they start with "Hermanos Americanos" ("American Brothers"), which definitely does NOT include the USA :P .
Scare quotes are unnecessary; nobody would confuse you with a cultural imperialist.
The country is called "The United States of America," so its people are "Americans." Similarly, people from "The United States of Mexico" (yes, that's its real full name) are called "Mexicans."
Languages evolve as an emergent property of people who speak them. Language usage is not subject to revision or control by self-appointed intellectual fairness monitors who unilaterally arrogate to themselves such an authority. Linguists call this practice "prescriptivism," and it is widely denigrated as (ironically) an imperialist tactic used by the power class to enforce their social position.
However, the principle itself is not limited to any particular political orientation; leftist prescriptivism is just as unsupportable in a linguistic sense as imperialist prescriptivism is.
The country is called "The United States of America," so its people are "Americans." Similarly, people from "The United States of Mexico" (yes, that's its real full name) are called "Mexicans."
Languages evolve as an emergent property of people who speak them. Language usage is not subject to revision or control by self-appointed intellectual fairness monitors who unilaterally arrogate to themselves such an authority. Linguists call this practice "prescriptivism," and it is widely denigrated as (ironically) an imperialist tactic used by the power class to enforce their social position.
However, the principle itself is not limited to any particular political orientation; leftist prescriptivism is just as unsupportable in a linguistic sense as imperialist prescriptivism is.
I grew up reading Richard Feynman, and was particularly impressed by his dislike for tipping (both giving and receiving), because it matched my thoughts on it.
He was from the US, and I don't think he was being an ass-hole.
He was from the US, and I don't think he was being an ass-hole.
Tipping etiquette is far from basic and almost downright intimidating. Even when I thought I had tipping at restaurants under control, I then lived in fear of embarrassing myself not tipping people in hotels and I'd stayed in a dozen hotels before I suspected that the maid cleaning the room expected a tip! Once got caught without change in a bathroom in a club in Hollywood and was so embarrassed that I handed over $10 foreign currency to a guy who handed me a towel - insane on every level.
Restaurant tipping in the US is fairly standard and shouldn't be too confusing or stressful. But I know exactly what you are talking about with other situations. For what it's worth, Americans are sometimes uncomfortable and don't know what the heck to do either! Hotels can be especially confusing.
Basically restaurants are the only place where tips are absolutely expected and you can make yourself look bad by not tipping. For anything else, if I'm not sure I usually just check a travel guide or go on forums and ask other people what they do.
I would do this if I travel to any country, just ask around at how you should behave if you want to fit in.
Basically restaurants are the only place where tips are absolutely expected and you can make yourself look bad by not tipping. For anything else, if I'm not sure I usually just check a travel guide or go on forums and ask other people what they do.
I would do this if I travel to any country, just ask around at how you should behave if you want to fit in.
I've been to 30+ countries and the US is the only one where you'd need to research tipping beforehand. The notion that you'd need to hit up a forum to learn how to supplement certain wages in very specific situations in a hotel is pretty silly!
You even admit that locals barely know what's expected in some situations!
You even admit that locals barely know what's expected in some situations!
You answered your own question tho, didn't you? No, it makes you someone who comes from a different culture, and I think it would be safe to assume that the person to whom you're responding would agree.
(1) I have personally met Tynan, and he's not an asshole. In fact, he's quite sweet in person. Even if you read his blog, there's nothing assholish about it. He doesn't lie. He does his own thing.
(2) People who generalize about an entire class of people being "assholes" ... maybe should look in the mirror.
(2) People who generalize about an entire class of people being "assholes" ... maybe should look in the mirror.
Generalizing about groups can be problematic. However, not so when you're generalizing based on what the group has in common.
The whole PUA thing is about manipulating vulnerable people so you can have sex with them. It's definitionally assholish. Assuming that a given PUA is an asshole is like assuming an Englishman speaks English. It's not a perfect correlation, but it's certainly the way to bet.
The whole PUA thing is about manipulating vulnerable people so you can have sex with them. It's definitionally assholish. Assuming that a given PUA is an asshole is like assuming an Englishman speaks English. It's not a perfect correlation, but it's certainly the way to bet.
Or, perhaps the whole PUA thing is about offering a list of techniques of social interaction that some people intuitively aren't born with, and need actual coaching. Neil Strauss documents this pretty well in his "The Game" books about how he fell into pickup culture.
Such techniques of course can be abused by assholes against the vulnerable as well.
Such techniques of course can be abused by assholes against the vulnerable as well.
Nobody's buying it, man. PUA techniques are for the socially awkward the same way blown glass pipes are for tobacco smokers. What people claim and what the vast majority use it for are two different things.
All you have to do is look at the OP's profile to find this picture.[0] That sure doesn't look like some poor bloke who has trouble talking to people.
[0]: (slightly NSFW) http://www.pualingo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/herbal-ty...
All you have to do is look at the OP's profile to find this picture.[0] That sure doesn't look like some poor bloke who has trouble talking to people.
[0]: (slightly NSFW) http://www.pualingo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/herbal-ty...
Yeah. A fine example is this article about how a well-known pick-up artist upset that a country with good social welfare programs makes it harder for him to manipulate women into letting him fuck them: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/cockblocked-by-redist...
Also, excellent analogy.
Also, excellent analogy.
http://www.rooshv.com/katie-j-m-baker-purposefully-distorted...
She didn't accurately quote from his book and may have mis-represented key quotes that she pulls from it.
She didn't accurately quote from his book and may have mis-represented key quotes that she pulls from it.
> But the book never stated that the pussy flow was blocked in Denmark, just that there was low quality, masculine pussy.
He sure isn't helping his case. All of the random claims of "socialism" and "left-leaning" don't help, either.
In fact, none of his clarifications actually prove she misquoted him, and each time he quoted his book in that post, it fit exactly with the original review.
From his language (referring to women as "the pussy" instead of as, you know, actual people) to his extreme generalizations of women and cultures, it's apparent the original review was spot-on for both Roosh's book and PUA culture in general.
He sure isn't helping his case. All of the random claims of "socialism" and "left-leaning" don't help, either.
In fact, none of his clarifications actually prove she misquoted him, and each time he quoted his book in that post, it fit exactly with the original review.
From his language (referring to women as "the pussy" instead of as, you know, actual people) to his extreme generalizations of women and cultures, it's apparent the original review was spot-on for both Roosh's book and PUA culture in general.
I don't look like a "poor bloke who has trouble talking to people" because I learned pickup and learned how to talk to people. I was very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time and be taken under the wings of the best PUAs. As a result I went from being a VERY shy socially awkward guy to being generally comfortable around people. Pickup changed my life for the better-- one of the best things that happened to me.
This echoes my experience with myself and acquaintances who learned pickup (though I only read a couple books). My fiancé even respects and uses PUA techniques for gaining social power as a female executive in a male-dominated industry.
The point is that at its best this stuff is about learning to evolve how you handle yourself with others to have more success in social endeavors. Ie. most things that don't involve staring at a screen.
The point is that at its best this stuff is about learning to evolve how you handle yourself with others to have more success in social endeavors. Ie. most things that don't involve staring at a screen.
What people claim and what the vast majority use it for are two different things.
True, but your implication has it backwards. Tynan is not part of the vast majority. He is an outlier, one degree of separation from Mystery(Erik von Markovik) and Neil Strauss.
The vast majority of people are unable or unwilling to be so ruthlessly selfish and sacrifice healthy, stable relationships on the altar of hedonistic sex-- even if they think that's all they want (and most will admit otherwise).
The dilemma is that guys who write about attraction and having sex with women tend to benefit a great deal by having a lot of experience with women. That's not very compatible with traditional monogamous relationships, so it will always be easy to attack them from this angle however irrelevant that angle may be.
True, but your implication has it backwards. Tynan is not part of the vast majority. He is an outlier, one degree of separation from Mystery(Erik von Markovik) and Neil Strauss.
The vast majority of people are unable or unwilling to be so ruthlessly selfish and sacrifice healthy, stable relationships on the altar of hedonistic sex-- even if they think that's all they want (and most will admit otherwise).
The dilemma is that guys who write about attraction and having sex with women tend to benefit a great deal by having a lot of experience with women. That's not very compatible with traditional monogamous relationships, so it will always be easy to attack them from this angle however irrelevant that angle may be.
Yet the photo of Tynan on the original post look nothing like the image you link to.
http://cdn.sett.com/images/user/201311080003dc887f36b225a18e...
http://cdn.sett.com/images/user/201311080003dc887f36b225a18e...
It is me, but it was taken probably around 2005, when I was 24. Funny how much things change over the years...
The whole PUA thing is about manipulating vulnerable people so you can have sex with them.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
Yeah! It's about empowering socially awkward people who just have trouble holding conversations! That's why it's called "pick up artistry": because you're picking up conversations!
Wait...
---
I honestly wonder how far up your ass your head has to be to completely ignore just how saturated the PUA community is with terms designed to objectify, marginalize, belittle, and disparage specifically women, and just how many of the highest regarded figureheads of the community are throbbing dickholes whose only goal in life is to find a modicum of self worth by pandering to the most cliche stereotype of traditional, toxic masculinity.
Wait...
---
I honestly wonder how far up your ass your head has to be to completely ignore just how saturated the PUA community is with terms designed to objectify, marginalize, belittle, and disparage specifically women, and just how many of the highest regarded figureheads of the community are throbbing dickholes whose only goal in life is to find a modicum of self worth by pandering to the most cliche stereotype of traditional, toxic masculinity.
> Yeah! It's about empowering socially awkward people who just have trouble holding conversations! That's why it's called "pick up artistry": because you're picking up conversations!
He didn't say the end goal is "picking up conversations". Mindcrime was almost certainly taking offense to the infantilizing attitudes expressed in the quote he included, not to its reference to sex.
For the most part, the end goal is sex, and sometimes it's long-term companionship. There's nothing wrong with either of those.
---
I honestly wonder how far up your _ss your head has to be to completely ignore just how saturated the feminist community is with terms designed to objectify, marginalize, belittle, and disparage specifically men, and just how many of the highest regarded figureheads of the community are throbbing c_nts whose only goal in life is to find a modicum of self worth by pandering to the most cliche stereotype of fragile, vulnerable femininity.
---
See? It's easy to disparage large groups!
He didn't say the end goal is "picking up conversations". Mindcrime was almost certainly taking offense to the infantilizing attitudes expressed in the quote he included, not to its reference to sex.
For the most part, the end goal is sex, and sometimes it's long-term companionship. There's nothing wrong with either of those.
---
I honestly wonder how far up your _ss your head has to be to completely ignore just how saturated the feminist community is with terms designed to objectify, marginalize, belittle, and disparage specifically men, and just how many of the highest regarded figureheads of the community are throbbing c_nts whose only goal in life is to find a modicum of self worth by pandering to the most cliche stereotype of fragile, vulnerable femininity.
---
See? It's easy to disparage large groups!
I love how you automatically assume I'm a feminist or have some connection to the feminist community, despite me never proclaiming that. Is this another PUA technique? To fall flat on your face in an argument?
You're wrong.
Women aren't adults who can be held responsible for their own actions and decisions; they're vulnerable children who need to be protected at every turn.
If you (as a man) visit an Apple Store just to look around, and you walk out with a brand new laptop, you're a customer. You made a decision. Yes, Apple works very hard to maximize conversions, but you're an adult, and it's silly to shame and vilify Apple for "manipulating" a "vulnerable" man into buying their products.
However, if you (as a woman) choose to have sex with a man who reads tips about how to increase his chances of having sex, you're a vulnerable victim of manipulation. That mean, bad predator who took advantage of you needs to be shamed!
Western media is overflowing with tips for women to get what they want from men. And that's okay. :)
But if you're a man, don't you dare read tips about how to get what you want from women. That would be misogynist. You don't hate women, do you, mindcrime?
Women aren't adults who can be held responsible for their own actions and decisions; they're vulnerable children who need to be protected at every turn.
If you (as a man) visit an Apple Store just to look around, and you walk out with a brand new laptop, you're a customer. You made a decision. Yes, Apple works very hard to maximize conversions, but you're an adult, and it's silly to shame and vilify Apple for "manipulating" a "vulnerable" man into buying their products.
However, if you (as a woman) choose to have sex with a man who reads tips about how to increase his chances of having sex, you're a vulnerable victim of manipulation. That mean, bad predator who took advantage of you needs to be shamed!
Western media is overflowing with tips for women to get what they want from men. And that's okay. :)
But if you're a man, don't you dare read tips about how to get what you want from women. That would be misogynist. You don't hate women, do you, mindcrime?
We are all adults responsible for our decisions. We also are all adults, responsible for how we treat others, and how it shapes their decisions. Responsibility is not zero sum.
The common name for the system in which men and women manipulate one another is called "patriarchy". (When you look beyond men and women, it's called "kyriarchy".) It's bullshit on both sides.
There are two reason it's seen as worse for men, both historical. One is the men have had way more power and are still substantially advantaged. The more power you have, the more responsible you are for a fucked-up situation.
The other is that people with less power are forced to be manipulative to survive. E.g., 100-200 years ago, when professional women were very rare, women focused a lot marrying well, because they didn't have a lot of other options. So there's a bunch of cultural hangover from that.
The common name for the system in which men and women manipulate one another is called "patriarchy". (When you look beyond men and women, it's called "kyriarchy".) It's bullshit on both sides.
There are two reason it's seen as worse for men, both historical. One is the men have had way more power and are still substantially advantaged. The more power you have, the more responsible you are for a fucked-up situation.
The other is that people with less power are forced to be manipulative to survive. E.g., 100-200 years ago, when professional women were very rare, women focused a lot marrying well, because they didn't have a lot of other options. So there's a bunch of cultural hangover from that.
This thread is not the place for a debate about whether life has historically been (or currently is) easier on men than on women.
So I'll simply say that it shows a remarkable lack of empathy and understanding for you to call those desperate men who resort to PUA tactics "powerful". Almost by definition, they are acting from a position of weakness.
I realize it's currently trendy to break the world down into large, tidy, digestible traits (maleness and femaleness in this case), labeling one as "privileged" and the other as "oppressed".
Life's way too complicated for that.
So I'll simply say that it shows a remarkable lack of empathy and understanding for you to call those desperate men who resort to PUA tactics "powerful". Almost by definition, they are acting from a position of weakness.
I realize it's currently trendy to break the world down into large, tidy, digestible traits (maleness and femaleness in this case), labeling one as "privileged" and the other as "oppressed".
Life's way too complicated for that.
The "let's not argue, so let me argue just a little" is bullshit.
As to your non-argument argument, I have plenty of empathy for the desperate. But I can still condemn them using what power they have to manipulate other desperate people.
Further: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...
As to your non-argument argument, I have plenty of empathy for the desperate. But I can still condemn them using what power they have to manipulate other desperate people.
Further: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...
[deleted](1)
I know some awkward nerdy guys who took up DJing partly so that people in clubs open to casual sex would find them interesting and choose them over others. Does this make them assholes?
PUA strikes me as a "sales and marketing" technique to advertise yourself as an interesting casual sex partner. There are some asshats who manipulate, but then there are also high-pressure salespeople who manipulate; that doesn't make all sales and marketing unethical.
PUA strikes me as a "sales and marketing" technique to advertise yourself as an interesting casual sex partner. There are some asshats who manipulate, but then there are also high-pressure salespeople who manipulate; that doesn't make all sales and marketing unethical.
> I know some awkward nerdy guys who took up DJing partly so that people in clubs open to casual sex would find them interesting and choose them over others. Does this make them assholes?
I dunno if I'd call them assholes, but I do feel sorry for them.
I dunno if I'd call them assholes, but I do feel sorry for them.
> (2) People who generalize about an entire class of people being "assholes" ... maybe should look in the mirror.
Why would you suggest that an entire class of people do something?
Why would you suggest that an entire class of people do something?
Wow, this is a pretty strong attack, for something that is likely just a miswording. Cruise passengers pay an automatic gratuity at the end of a trip. Much of this goes to your room attendant. So it's "free" in the sense that it's essentially included in the total price.
I am annoyed with this comment. You do not seem to realise that there are many parallels between the "PUA" community and the startup community. Both are about people striving to meet their goals.
You should read "The Game", by Neil Strauss. He documents the process of becoming a pickup artist, the people he met, the stages he went through. And as you read it, you will realise something - the only surefire way to becoming a successful PUA is to improve yourself, to become the best version of yourself, and at the end of it all, that's what these guys were trying to do.
Yeah, there are assholes. There's always assholes. But at the end of the day, this so-called "PUA" culture is about turning yourself into the best version of yourself you can be. And isn't that what all us startup types are trying to do? Rising to a challenge? Stepping into those shoes? Pushing ourselves beyond what we thought possible? Closing the deal?
There are more parallels than you think. Read that book. And don't be so eager to judge people. They're more like you than you realise.
You should read "The Game", by Neil Strauss. He documents the process of becoming a pickup artist, the people he met, the stages he went through. And as you read it, you will realise something - the only surefire way to becoming a successful PUA is to improve yourself, to become the best version of yourself, and at the end of it all, that's what these guys were trying to do.
Yeah, there are assholes. There's always assholes. But at the end of the day, this so-called "PUA" culture is about turning yourself into the best version of yourself you can be. And isn't that what all us startup types are trying to do? Rising to a challenge? Stepping into those shoes? Pushing ourselves beyond what we thought possible? Closing the deal?
There are more parallels than you think. Read that book. And don't be so eager to judge people. They're more like you than you realise.
>I am annoyed with this comment. You do not seem to realise that there are many parallels between the "PUA" community and the startup community. Both are about people striving to meet their goals
That also happens to describe the mob and the serial killers community.
That also happens to describe the mob and the serial killers community.
One big difference between PUA culture and startup culture is that the former is generally more expressly proud of its misogyny.
On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"?
The real world?
http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/
http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/
Congratulations on discovering human psychology. I don't have a blog post at hand exemplifying how bosses "neg" potential hires to get them at a lower rate, but I assure you, it is a Thing.
"Negging" is a negotiating tactic and you have failed to show how it is linked to misogyny in any way, shape or form.
"Negging" is a negotiating tactic and you have failed to show how it is linked to misogyny in any way, shape or form.
If somebody harms people's self esteem to get something out of them, that person is an asshole. If that person is a boss, they are an asshole boss. If they are carefully studying how to be an asshole to women, I'm ok calling them misogynist.
I accept their rationalization might be different. But it always is. Everybody thinks they wear a white hat.
I accept their rationalization might be different. But it always is. Everybody thinks they wear a white hat.
You're fedorable. For such an expert on human psychology, you are having an awfully hard time understanding why you are not being well received here. You don't seem to be able to figure out how to get a bunch of nerds like us to like you, which should be easier than women since you are like us, right? And you're doing a great job at digging a deeper hole.
Yeah, I'm not trying to make you like me. I was just trying to stick up for a community which I don't think is as malevolent as the GP proposed.
FWIW, to be accused of misogyny is really offensive to me personally.
FWIW, to be accused of misogyny is really offensive to me personally.
Have to say that you're not reacting particularly well to being "negged".
is this usual outcome?
is this usual outcome?
> not reacting particularly well
What makes you say that? He's not the one throwing names around. What would constitute "reacting well" in your book? Agreeing with you?
What makes you say that? He's not the one throwing names around. What would constitute "reacting well" in your book? Agreeing with you?
Agreeing with me about what?
All I'm doing is pointing out that being "negged" just seems to be making him quite defensive and angry. I thought that having his self-esteem be reduced should make him more sexually appealing and available - but that doesn't seem to be happening.
All I'm doing is pointing out that being "negged" just seems to be making him quite defensive and angry. I thought that having his self-esteem be reduced should make him more sexually appealing and available - but that doesn't seem to be happening.
The only reason you don't want to sound "anti-woman" is...professional advice against it. You may not understand exactly how that makes you sound like you're barely holding back the pent up misogyny.
"Not being well received here"?
A handful of feminists are accusing him of hating women for wanting to be more attractive to women. Nothing's new.
Just because people aren't standing up to a handful of feminist bullies ("fedorable"?) doesn't mean the community here doesn't like him. It just means that don't want to pick a fight.
A handful of feminists are accusing him of hating women for wanting to be more attractive to women. Nothing's new.
Just because people aren't standing up to a handful of feminist bullies ("fedorable"?) doesn't mean the community here doesn't like him. It just means that don't want to pick a fight.
I had to scroll all the way down here to see someone use the word "feminist" as a baseless insult. You guys need to step up your game.
Welp, congratulations! If you fail to see the misogyny in that blog post that means you're another venerable member of the PUA community who is proud of its misogyny.
[deleted]
i can't believe what i just read
> On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"?
Its called Earth, where using ability to sexually manipulate women as the yardstick to measure your personal development is, for reasons which should be quite obvious, seen as misogyny (or, more precisely, objectification of women.)
Its called Earth, where using ability to sexually manipulate women as the yardstick to measure your personal development is, for reasons which should be quite obvious, seen as misogyny (or, more precisely, objectification of women.)
I know I will get downvotes for this...
But "here comes the shaming language" ...
Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years.
EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water.
Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
But "here comes the shaming language" ...
Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years.
EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water.
Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
> Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years.
See, here, where you gender stereotype "women" (and not a subset of them) as equivalent to "the PUA community", that's a good illustration of the problem right there.
> EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever.
Lots do, but, no, not every single one does. (Leaving aside for the moment whether the things you describe are actually PUA-equivalent.)
> It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water.
Actually, they do notice it. For some women, its part of the reason they buy the magazines (though, usually -- unlike for self-proclaimed members of the "PUA community" -- not usually a point of pride.) For other women, its a source of entertainment, something to laugh about (either among each other or with male friends.)
For other women, its part of the reason they object to many mainstream women's fashion & lifestyle magazines as reinforces of patriarchy and traditional gender roles.
But what is certainly not true is that they don't notice it.
> Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
No, only when they proudly label themselves as members of a community whose very name is about using whatever knowledge or skills they have to manipulate women into sex.
You can't really be surprised that people react to the labels you choose for yourself.
See, here, where you gender stereotype "women" (and not a subset of them) as equivalent to "the PUA community", that's a good illustration of the problem right there.
> EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever.
Lots do, but, no, not every single one does. (Leaving aside for the moment whether the things you describe are actually PUA-equivalent.)
> It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water.
Actually, they do notice it. For some women, its part of the reason they buy the magazines (though, usually -- unlike for self-proclaimed members of the "PUA community" -- not usually a point of pride.) For other women, its a source of entertainment, something to laugh about (either among each other or with male friends.)
For other women, its part of the reason they object to many mainstream women's fashion & lifestyle magazines as reinforces of patriarchy and traditional gender roles.
But what is certainly not true is that they don't notice it.
> Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
No, only when they proudly label themselves as members of a community whose very name is about using whatever knowledge or skills they have to manipulate women into sex.
You can't really be surprised that people react to the labels you choose for yourself.
Cosmo is also full of patriarchal heteronormative bullshit, you'll get no argument from me there.
Punching up vs punching down.
I wonder...
Is it impossible for there to be such a thing as pick-up artistry amongst members of the homosexual community? I bet it's just a magical thing that happens in the LGBT community, where courtship is preternaturally effortless. Perhaps, it's not even a learned behavior, to attract sexual partners?
Are heterosexual women incapable of manipulative behavior? Is there no such thing? ...but if that's true, wouldn't that damage any purported premise of equality?
Is it impossible for there to be such a thing as pick-up artistry amongst members of the homosexual community? I bet it's just a magical thing that happens in the LGBT community, where courtship is preternaturally effortless. Perhaps, it's not even a learned behavior, to attract sexual partners?
Are heterosexual women incapable of manipulative behavior? Is there no such thing? ...but if that's true, wouldn't that damage any purported premise of equality?
Why would a community that wants to date women be considered misogynists?
mi·sog·y·ny məˈsäjənē noun 1. the hatred of women.
mi·sog·y·ny məˈsäjənē noun 1. the hatred of women.
Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1]
misogyny n. hatred of or hostility toward women.[2, emphasis added]
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny
misogyny n. hatred of or hostility toward women.[2, emphasis added]
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny
You see them as objects to be acquired, and not as individuals/friends. There are many "artists" (ergh) that are quite clearly misogynist.
The climax of the book was when Neil realized that indoctrinating yourself into the PUA community creates strange, robot like humans incapable of real connections and that lasting relationships are based on having real substance behind the facade and tricks of the PUA community.
It's strange how half the people who read this book ended up infatuated with the over-glamorized lifestyle of the "pickup artist" and missed the tale of the value of being yourself.
It's strange how half the people who read this book ended up infatuated with the over-glamorized lifestyle of the "pickup artist" and missed the tale of the value of being yourself.
I think we interpreted the book in different ways.
Yes, he realised that the culture of trying to trick women into bed via tricks or routines was wrong, and the people who went down that path had flawed, weak personalities. It's interesting that on HN we tend to laud people who try to "hack the system" - but it's a shortcut, it's not real, and even if you succeed you can't handle it when you get there.
He realised that the real way to "win" women was to be yourself, the very best version of yourself you could manage. That is the central truth to which I was trying to refer. If you want to get the girls, be cool and confident and popular and successful. If that doesn't drive at least 50% of the startup community then I don't know what does.
I think we actually agree, except you have picked up a negative bias somewhere that I don't have. I liked that book very much. I have never been, nor want to be, a "PUA" but by god do I understand the sentiment.
Yes, he realised that the culture of trying to trick women into bed via tricks or routines was wrong, and the people who went down that path had flawed, weak personalities. It's interesting that on HN we tend to laud people who try to "hack the system" - but it's a shortcut, it's not real, and even if you succeed you can't handle it when you get there.
He realised that the real way to "win" women was to be yourself, the very best version of yourself you could manage. That is the central truth to which I was trying to refer. If you want to get the girls, be cool and confident and popular and successful. If that doesn't drive at least 50% of the startup community then I don't know what does.
I think we actually agree, except you have picked up a negative bias somewhere that I don't have. I liked that book very much. I have never been, nor want to be, a "PUA" but by god do I understand the sentiment.
Neil Strauss's "The Game" is what cemented my nagative views about PUA's
Want to elaborate on this?
For me that book shone a really bright light on a community, and its two types of citizens - the "wantrepreneurs" who would try to trick their way to success, and the really serious guys who changed their whole lives to succeed.
I saw obvious parallels between them and the startup community. And, yes, I suppose, serial killers and any other community who wants to succeed.
Curious as to what you found was negative and why.
For me that book shone a really bright light on a community, and its two types of citizens - the "wantrepreneurs" who would try to trick their way to success, and the really serious guys who changed their whole lives to succeed.
I saw obvious parallels between them and the startup community. And, yes, I suppose, serial killers and any other community who wants to succeed.
Curious as to what you found was negative and why.
There's just not a lot redeeming about most "pick-up artist" type characters. They practice their craft by relying on automatic human behavior using borrowed stories, magic tricks, or flat-out lies to establish trust.
In my opinion, diluting a relationship down to scientific behaviors and applying that to your relationships is dehumanizing and disingenuous. I don't want to associate with people like that.
In my opinion, diluting a relationship down to scientific behaviors and applying that to your relationships is dehumanizing and disingenuous. I don't want to associate with people like that.
Isn't your conclusion a bit of a stretch? Anyone who is a pickup artist is an asshole, and every asshole doesn't tip? Tynan is actually a pretty nice guy if you meet him in person.
If I found an asshole that does tip, would that destroy your theory?
If I found an asshole that does tip, would that destroy your theory?
If you're a pickup artist doesn't this imply a certain degree of dishonesty and manipulation? Not sure these are things a nice person engages in.
I'd wager that the most manipulative people in social settings are people with the most neediness but least experience, self-esteem, and emotional stability. And those are things most people wrestle with to some degree.
Since I imagine most guys come to the PUA community because those traits relegate them to a life of loneliness and zero ass, I would think that their real goal is to transcend those traits altogether and to become better people. It's what PUA nirvana must be.
Since I imagine most guys come to the PUA community because those traits relegate them to a life of loneliness and zero ass, I would think that their real goal is to transcend those traits altogether and to become better people. It's what PUA nirvana must be.
An interesting reply. But doesn't seem to address anything about the question I posed and more an attempt to throw a positive spin on PUA.
I mean, what you suggest here is that people are manipulative and sad before they become involved in the PUA community, and that the joining of said community is an attempt to free them of these negative traits?
I get confused by this logic because as far as I can tell the PUA community endorses manipulative and dishonest behavior, so what you're suggesting is that these lonely, manipulative, people, can transcend their manipulative behavior through more manipulative behavior.
I mean, what you suggest here is that people are manipulative and sad before they become involved in the PUA community, and that the joining of said community is an attempt to free them of these negative traits?
I get confused by this logic because as far as I can tell the PUA community endorses manipulative and dishonest behavior, so what you're suggesting is that these lonely, manipulative, people, can transcend their manipulative behavior through more manipulative behavior.
I get confused by this logic because as far as I can tell the PUA community endorses manipulative and dishonest behavior, so
A subset of "the PUA community" do that, but there is nothing inherent about "learning PUA" that implies any dishonesty or manipulation. More than anything, it's about gaining confidence, learning some basic etiquette, grooming essentials, and a little bit of other stuff. It's Pareto's Law in action... 80% of your improvement at meeting women comes from 20% of the "stuff" that could potentially learn from PUAs. Better posture, better clothes, a fresh haircut, smiling more, and not being scared of, or intimidated by, beautiful women, is the heart of PUA-dom.
And to be quite frank, these days, the "PUA community" has really outgrown it's roots and become the "male self-help and improvement community". Lurk on many "PUA" forums and you'll find guys talking more about how to start businesses and make more money, than the ones swapping "routines" or whatever.
A subset of "the PUA community" do that, but there is nothing inherent about "learning PUA" that implies any dishonesty or manipulation. More than anything, it's about gaining confidence, learning some basic etiquette, grooming essentials, and a little bit of other stuff. It's Pareto's Law in action... 80% of your improvement at meeting women comes from 20% of the "stuff" that could potentially learn from PUAs. Better posture, better clothes, a fresh haircut, smiling more, and not being scared of, or intimidated by, beautiful women, is the heart of PUA-dom.
And to be quite frank, these days, the "PUA community" has really outgrown it's roots and become the "male self-help and improvement community". Lurk on many "PUA" forums and you'll find guys talking more about how to start businesses and make more money, than the ones swapping "routines" or whatever.
as I can tell the PUA community endorses manipulative and dishonest behavior
I haven't seen anything "manipulative and dishonest" on Tynan's blog, nor in his books. Well, at some level everything we do to influence another person is "manipulative," but that's such a broad definition as to be useless.
I haven't seen anything "manipulative and dishonest" on Tynan's blog, nor in his books. Well, at some level everything we do to influence another person is "manipulative," but that's such a broad definition as to be useless.
Some people seem to be able to learn how to socially interact on their own. Others need coaching. Is it dishonest if it is coached?
All social interactions at some level of depth eventually involve pursuasion of a sort. The question is when does that become unethical?
All social interactions at some level of depth eventually involve pursuasion of a sort. The question is when does that become unethical?
"All social interactions at some level of depth eventually involve pursuasion of a sort. The question is when does that become unethical?"
Truly A question we all must answer for ourselves.
Truly A question we all must answer for ourselves.
It could just mean communicating effectively. An untrained person would do terribly if they tried to plead a case in court, even if they knew all the relevant facts, because they don't know how to phrase their arguments in the way lawyers want them. But learning to "speak legalese" isn't learning dishonesty or manipulation - it's just about phrasing things the right way.
Sorry, what could mean communicating effectively? Describing a 'pick up artist' as simply being a student of rhetoric seems a bit disingenuous.
If you're a pickup artist doesn't this imply a certain degree of dishonesty and manipulation?
No, it doesn't. More than any single other thing, "being a PUA" is about learning not to be scared of / intimidated by, women. And about learning not to supplicate and do stupid shit, in order to try to manipulate women into having sex with you. The thing is, most so called "nice guys" are far more manipulative than a PUA! They just aren't as honest with themselves, OR the person they're trying to connect with.
No, it doesn't. More than any single other thing, "being a PUA" is about learning not to be scared of / intimidated by, women. And about learning not to supplicate and do stupid shit, in order to try to manipulate women into having sex with you. The thing is, most so called "nice guys" are far more manipulative than a PUA! They just aren't as honest with themselves, OR the person they're trying to connect with.
If you're a woman and put on makeup, doesn't this imply a certain degree of dishonesty and manipulation?
Compare:
Figure 1: http://www.mendaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Katy-Perr...
Figure 2: http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/katyperrynomakeup.jpg
Picking up girls, and selling are very similar, and you can often cross use the techniques you learn.
Is selling dishonest? It is if you lie and shit. Is it manipulative? What the hell does that really mean? When we interact with the world and people, we are by definition manipulating it.
If you show up to a party and act retarded, you are manipulating people into thinking you're a retard.
If you show up to a party and act cool, interesting, fun, you are manipulating people into thinking you're that.
Is the latter form of manipulation considered "bad" because you aren't cool, interesting, and fun all the time? No one is 100% of the time, we all have different emotional states, at different times.
Why is selling yourself wrong then? There's pretty much nothing wrong with that as long as you don't have STDs (and even that's ok if you mention it) or are a serial killer or something.
Compare:
Figure 1: http://www.mendaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Katy-Perr...
Figure 2: http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/katyperrynomakeup.jpg
Picking up girls, and selling are very similar, and you can often cross use the techniques you learn.
Is selling dishonest? It is if you lie and shit. Is it manipulative? What the hell does that really mean? When we interact with the world and people, we are by definition manipulating it.
If you show up to a party and act retarded, you are manipulating people into thinking you're a retard.
If you show up to a party and act cool, interesting, fun, you are manipulating people into thinking you're that.
Is the latter form of manipulation considered "bad" because you aren't cool, interesting, and fun all the time? No one is 100% of the time, we all have different emotional states, at different times.
Why is selling yourself wrong then? There's pretty much nothing wrong with that as long as you don't have STDs (and even that's ok if you mention it) or are a serial killer or something.
All PUAs are assholes. Not all assholes are PUAs.
1. That first statement isn't true, and you will never come close to proving it is. It's a broad generalization.
2. The comment you're responding to says, "Anyone who is a pickup artist is an asshole", which is synonymous with "All PUAs are assholes", so you haven't contradicted his point.
2. The comment you're responding to says, "Anyone who is a pickup artist is an asshole", which is synonymous with "All PUAs are assholes", so you haven't contradicted his point.
An interesting thought experiment would be to consider what you'd think of a female pick up artist.
Probably the same way, but being a female pickup artist doesn't carry all of that "constantly objectified in media" and "the subject of a steady stream of slut-shaming (but if she doesn't put out she's totally a bitch)" baggage that's there when a man is trying to manipulate a woman into having sex with him.
Author of the post, confirmed asshole, here. In most cruise ships you do not tip for anything until the end, and it is a flat rate. Enjoy.
That must be the worst argument I have seen in a long time.
The fact that he is/was [if you read his blog .. thats "was"] a PUA invalidates his experience/findings/credibility?
On cruise ships you tend to tip the staff at the end of the voyage.
I think you tip essentially a constant amount t on cruises. Room service is about as free as dining in the main room. The only time I would tip exceptionally is if someone went really above and beyond, or did something against policy, and in a lot of customer support cases, a cash tip separately is a better solution there. Or, if it is just exceptional service , calling the employee out by name to management a few layers above.
"2) Internet is expensive, slow, and charges by the minute). "
When I've been on cruises (this dates back to as early as 2002 iirc) I've always been concerned with this.
And there are times as well (when sailing) that you are out of reach by satellite and have no connectivity at all. Unless things have changed you aren't going to be streaming video or doing anything that requires bandwidth. Once again, from my experience, things could have changed as I haven't cruised in at least 4 years.
With respect to internet on cruises it's a totally YMMV. I was concerned enough about access that I actually tracked down and contacted the operator of the service [1] for the particular ship I was on (and they do this for many cruise lines) and spoke to an engineer to ask questions before taking a particular cruise. I wasn't going to rely on what the cruise ship customer service told me. One of the questions I had was "do you block any ports"? The engineer (quite knowledgeable not customer service but engineering) said they didn't but it turned out that (at the time) they blocked anything that carried voice or obviously video (like ichat, skype etc.). Have no idea if that is still the case.
But here is the strangest thing. Back in perhaps 2004 on a particular ship you couldn't (get this) connect by wifi with a Mac!.
That's right you had to have a windows machine to connect to the ships wifi. Made no sense. But true. Nobody on the ship with a mac could connect only PC laptops. Ended up having to use the crap in the "Internet Cafe" which made 1996 using AOL seem quick. Literally couldn't even get email during certain times since all ship traffic went through one pipe.
For the next cruise I also brought a PC laptop. (But on that ship I didn't need it).
[1] It was this company: http://www.mtnsat.com/
When I've been on cruises (this dates back to as early as 2002 iirc) I've always been concerned with this.
And there are times as well (when sailing) that you are out of reach by satellite and have no connectivity at all. Unless things have changed you aren't going to be streaming video or doing anything that requires bandwidth. Once again, from my experience, things could have changed as I haven't cruised in at least 4 years.
With respect to internet on cruises it's a totally YMMV. I was concerned enough about access that I actually tracked down and contacted the operator of the service [1] for the particular ship I was on (and they do this for many cruise lines) and spoke to an engineer to ask questions before taking a particular cruise. I wasn't going to rely on what the cruise ship customer service told me. One of the questions I had was "do you block any ports"? The engineer (quite knowledgeable not customer service but engineering) said they didn't but it turned out that (at the time) they blocked anything that carried voice or obviously video (like ichat, skype etc.). Have no idea if that is still the case.
But here is the strangest thing. Back in perhaps 2004 on a particular ship you couldn't (get this) connect by wifi with a Mac!.
That's right you had to have a windows machine to connect to the ships wifi. Made no sense. But true. Nobody on the ship with a mac could connect only PC laptops. Ended up having to use the crap in the "Internet Cafe" which made 1996 using AOL seem quick. Literally couldn't even get email during certain times since all ship traffic went through one pipe.
For the next cruise I also brought a PC laptop. (But on that ship I didn't need it).
[1] It was this company: http://www.mtnsat.com/
Was the cruise line Royal Caribbean?
Yep. RCL.
Have been cruising with them for over 15 years. Have a love/hate relationship with them (also, several of my friends work onboard a variety of their ships in the entertainment tech department).
> Low level cruise employees like the cleaning crew, cabin stewards, waiters, cooks, etc. are paid ridiculously low wages, because cruise ships are registered to countries like Panama and the companies do not need to adhere to U.S. standards.
On most major lines, the cleaning, etc. staff get reprimanded if they receive reviews from their passengers that are less than 5 stars. Even if it's only 4/5 (or the equivalent), they are expected to keep "perfect" ratings and are punished if they don't.
Cruises end up being a convenient way for my family to take vacations for a number of reasons (not the least being that my grandmother has limited mobility and cannot enjoy other vacation destinations as easily), but I always feel very guilty every time I go, because I see firsthand how badly the staff are exploited.
(Also, if you never want to go on a cruise line again, read the chapter in Tina Fey's "Bossypants" about her experience the one and only time she took a cruise.)
As for the (lack of) connectivity, I actually like this feature. When I go on a vacation, I enjoy being completely disconnected from the "real world". I find that, after a week of this, I wind up completely refreshed and come back to work more productive than if my attention had been split. But YMMV.
On most major lines, the cleaning, etc. staff get reprimanded if they receive reviews from their passengers that are less than 5 stars. Even if it's only 4/5 (or the equivalent), they are expected to keep "perfect" ratings and are punished if they don't.
Cruises end up being a convenient way for my family to take vacations for a number of reasons (not the least being that my grandmother has limited mobility and cannot enjoy other vacation destinations as easily), but I always feel very guilty every time I go, because I see firsthand how badly the staff are exploited.
(Also, if you never want to go on a cruise line again, read the chapter in Tina Fey's "Bossypants" about her experience the one and only time she took a cruise.)
As for the (lack of) connectivity, I actually like this feature. When I go on a vacation, I enjoy being completely disconnected from the "real world". I find that, after a week of this, I wind up completely refreshed and come back to work more productive than if my attention had been split. But YMMV.
but I always feel very guilty every time I go, because I see firsthand how badly the staff are exploited
You have to consider any situation holistically. What you call exploitation is often a tremendous improvement over the alternatives those folks have in their countries of origin.
Go on the cruise, tip well, and be polite to staff.
You have to consider any situation holistically. What you call exploitation is often a tremendous improvement over the alternatives those folks have in their countries of origin.
Go on the cruise, tip well, and be polite to staff.
> You have to consider any situation holistically. What you call exploitation is often a tremendous improvement over the alternatives those folks have in their countries of origin.
To consider the situation holistically would mean to look at the global system of capitalism bootstrapped by years of outright colonization and exploitation that lead to the situation where doing low-skilled manual labour is considered an improvement in lifestyle for otherwise healthy and able individuals -- rather than (say) getting free, high-quality education or vocational training and a reasonable share of the improvements in life style industrialization and science have enabled.
I'm not buying into the idea that not going on a cruise would improve things, and I'm not even saying don't go on cruises -- but why delude yourself that exploiting people is ok, just because someone else have set the stage for doing so? It doesn't stop being exploitation just because someone comes from a worse situation than they're in now. That just makes participating in the exploitation is a rational choice by the one being exploited -- it doesn't make it a moral choice by the exploiter...
To consider the situation holistically would mean to look at the global system of capitalism bootstrapped by years of outright colonization and exploitation that lead to the situation where doing low-skilled manual labour is considered an improvement in lifestyle for otherwise healthy and able individuals -- rather than (say) getting free, high-quality education or vocational training and a reasonable share of the improvements in life style industrialization and science have enabled.
I'm not buying into the idea that not going on a cruise would improve things, and I'm not even saying don't go on cruises -- but why delude yourself that exploiting people is ok, just because someone else have set the stage for doing so? It doesn't stop being exploitation just because someone comes from a worse situation than they're in now. That just makes participating in the exploitation is a rational choice by the one being exploited -- it doesn't make it a moral choice by the exploiter...
why delude yourself that exploiting people is ok
I don't accept your interpretation of "exploiting".
They have jobs. They get paid for their jobs. They're getting paid more by doing their jobs than whatever alternatives they had since this isn't slave labor.
You're redefining what "exploiting" means and you're casually throwing concepts around like the perpetual victim status of entire societies due to colonialization.
Canada, Hong Kong, Singapore, and the USA were colonies too... we got over it.
If there's an evil in the whole colonial relationship, it's do-gooder Westerners who think they should care for and dictate to other societies rather than just letting them get jobs, sell their products, sell services, compete on the worlds stage, learn lessons, improve their lot, etc.
I don't accept your interpretation of "exploiting".
They have jobs. They get paid for their jobs. They're getting paid more by doing their jobs than whatever alternatives they had since this isn't slave labor.
You're redefining what "exploiting" means and you're casually throwing concepts around like the perpetual victim status of entire societies due to colonialization.
Canada, Hong Kong, Singapore, and the USA were colonies too... we got over it.
If there's an evil in the whole colonial relationship, it's do-gooder Westerners who think they should care for and dictate to other societies rather than just letting them get jobs, sell their products, sell services, compete on the worlds stage, learn lessons, improve their lot, etc.
> Canada, Hong Kong, Singapore, and the USA were colonies too... we got over it.
For Canada and the USA at least, I think it's a little strong to say that the indigenous inhabitants "got over it".
For Canada and the USA at least, I think it's a little strong to say that the indigenous inhabitants "got over it".
This is Armenian Radio. Caller asks us, what is difference between capitalism and socialism? We reply, under capitalism, man exploits man; under socialism, it's just the opposite.
True enough. I've never considered socialism much of an alternative, but I do think both (modern) anarchism and communism holds great promise.
As for the more fundamental question of "why can't we just all get along?" -- we'll just have to keep working on it...
As for the more fundamental question of "why can't we just all get along?" -- we'll just have to keep working on it...
Once, there was a peaceful anarchic village, where everybody was perfectly equal and there were no laws or rules. People shared everything freely and never fought. Then, one day, the neighboring village invaded, killed all the men, raped all the women, and enslaved all the children. That was the end of that.
Even if somehow the whole world were to switch instantaneously to the state of anarchy, it would be a very short matter of time before someone internally decided to take over and enforce rules with the threat of violence. This person would then be the "government."
As for Communism, Armenian radio listener calls in and says, "We are told that true Communism is just on the horizon now. I ask, what is horizon?" We reply, "Horizon is imaginary line that always recedes as you approach it."
The fundamental misapprehension at work here is confusing two meanings of the word "system." There are systems created by humans, such as "the justice system of Japan." We can change those, since they derive entirely from human control. Then, there are emergent or natural systems, such as gravity. These cannot be changed simply because people decide they don't like them.
Capitalism is of the latter category. It is not a human-created system; it did not emerge from colonialism. It is merely the natural emergent behavior of actors under resource scarcity. As long as there are not enough resources for everyone to have what they want, there will be some variant of a market and capitalistic trade. It is not possible to alter this scenario simply because it doesn't seem pleasant; that's wishful thinking. All that can be done is to make the market more or less efficient.
The Soviet Union and North Korea, for example, have always had internal capitalist black markets, despite massive penalties. Prisons have internal black markets. Countries that try to control their currency's value have massive internal black markets for hard currency. Cocaine is readily available for a price almost everywhere in the world, despite massive and coordinated efforts to suppress that market.
The reverse also applies; in the absence of actual scarcity, it is impossible to enforce a market, since that is an emergent property of scarcity rather than a human-chosen system. Illegal music and movie trading online, for example, continue to grow despite massive efforts to prop up the market, because there is no actual scarcity.
Even if somehow the whole world were to switch instantaneously to the state of anarchy, it would be a very short matter of time before someone internally decided to take over and enforce rules with the threat of violence. This person would then be the "government."
As for Communism, Armenian radio listener calls in and says, "We are told that true Communism is just on the horizon now. I ask, what is horizon?" We reply, "Horizon is imaginary line that always recedes as you approach it."
The fundamental misapprehension at work here is confusing two meanings of the word "system." There are systems created by humans, such as "the justice system of Japan." We can change those, since they derive entirely from human control. Then, there are emergent or natural systems, such as gravity. These cannot be changed simply because people decide they don't like them.
Capitalism is of the latter category. It is not a human-created system; it did not emerge from colonialism. It is merely the natural emergent behavior of actors under resource scarcity. As long as there are not enough resources for everyone to have what they want, there will be some variant of a market and capitalistic trade. It is not possible to alter this scenario simply because it doesn't seem pleasant; that's wishful thinking. All that can be done is to make the market more or less efficient.
The Soviet Union and North Korea, for example, have always had internal capitalist black markets, despite massive penalties. Prisons have internal black markets. Countries that try to control their currency's value have massive internal black markets for hard currency. Cocaine is readily available for a price almost everywhere in the world, despite massive and coordinated efforts to suppress that market.
The reverse also applies; in the absence of actual scarcity, it is impossible to enforce a market, since that is an emergent property of scarcity rather than a human-chosen system. Illegal music and movie trading online, for example, continue to grow despite massive efforts to prop up the market, because there is no actual scarcity.
> Capitalism is (...) not a human-created system; it did not emerge from
> colonialism. It is merely the natural emergent behavior of actors
> under resource scarcity.
1) I didn't mean to imply that capitalism emerged from colonialism, but that the current distribution of wealth an power within capitalism is connected to colonialism (among other things).
2) I don't think you're assertion of capitalism being "an emergent system" is correct -- capitalism is defined by having capital and private ownership over means of production. There are many other systems for regulating scarcity (artificial or otherwise) (eg: feudalism).
> As long as there are not enough resources for everyone to have what > they want, there will be some variant of a market and capitalistic > trade. The reverse also applies; in the absence of actual scarcity, > it is impossible to enforce a market, since that is an emergent > property of scarcity rather than a human-chosen system.
3) You imply that there aren't enough resources. While that may be true, I think the issue is more one of uneven distribution. This obviously also depend on your clause "for everyone to have what they want". I think the current system encourages aggregation without much regard for what individuals actually want (Who "wants" Foxxconn to dominate in certain areas of industrial production?).
4) Not all markets and trade systems define a capitalist system.
Note also that I specifically said modern anarchism. That doesn't necessarily define away the right to self defence. Communism certainly doesn't.
The main difference between the two, is that communism seeks to maintain a form of government, highly localized and highly democratic -- but with the option to retain such things as a police force and a justice system (reserve the right of the government to use violence such as detaining and investigation of crimes for the common good) while anarchism is generally more sceptical of any power structure and any use of force against the individual.
1) I didn't mean to imply that capitalism emerged from colonialism, but that the current distribution of wealth an power within capitalism is connected to colonialism (among other things).
2) I don't think you're assertion of capitalism being "an emergent system" is correct -- capitalism is defined by having capital and private ownership over means of production. There are many other systems for regulating scarcity (artificial or otherwise) (eg: feudalism).
> As long as there are not enough resources for everyone to have what > they want, there will be some variant of a market and capitalistic > trade. The reverse also applies; in the absence of actual scarcity, > it is impossible to enforce a market, since that is an emergent > property of scarcity rather than a human-chosen system.
3) You imply that there aren't enough resources. While that may be true, I think the issue is more one of uneven distribution. This obviously also depend on your clause "for everyone to have what they want". I think the current system encourages aggregation without much regard for what individuals actually want (Who "wants" Foxxconn to dominate in certain areas of industrial production?).
4) Not all markets and trade systems define a capitalist system.
Note also that I specifically said modern anarchism. That doesn't necessarily define away the right to self defence. Communism certainly doesn't.
The main difference between the two, is that communism seeks to maintain a form of government, highly localized and highly democratic -- but with the option to retain such things as a police force and a justice system (reserve the right of the government to use violence such as detaining and investigation of crimes for the common good) while anarchism is generally more sceptical of any power structure and any use of force against the individual.
I like the Communism on the horizon concept. I'm always suspicious of any government types who have a "better new way". They always have some new plan to get us to nirvana. That new plan always take a lot of funding, has no real scientific basis, no benchmarks, no accountability for the implementers, and no way to undo the damage once the plan fails. Despite the failures of similar masterminds in the past, the next plan will be the one that really fixes things and solves all our problems... always on the horizon.
it would be a very short matter of time before someone internally decided to take over and enforce rules with the threat of violence
Maybe, but then again that's what the conventional wisdom said about the Americans a couple hundred years ago. It was thought by intellectuals that so much individual freedom couldn't last very long. Yes, we've shifted pretty far toward socialism for the past hundred years. But I'd argue that if it weren't for the evil seed of slavery, we would never have had the Civil War and we wouldn't be dealing with the steady advance of the state.
it would be a very short matter of time before someone internally decided to take over and enforce rules with the threat of violence
Maybe, but then again that's what the conventional wisdom said about the Americans a couple hundred years ago. It was thought by intellectuals that so much individual freedom couldn't last very long. Yes, we've shifted pretty far toward socialism for the past hundred years. But I'd argue that if it weren't for the evil seed of slavery, we would never have had the Civil War and we wouldn't be dealing with the steady advance of the state.
the crew went into "don't get sued" mode really quickly
I hate this kind of thing. Why do we allow this sort of situation, where fear of lawsuits results in worse response/care?
I don't know exactly what would need to change, but this the legal process at its worst.
I hate this kind of thing. Why do we allow this sort of situation, where fear of lawsuits results in worse response/care?
I don't know exactly what would need to change, but this the legal process at its worst.
Less people suing would reduce that. The problem is that people sue over everything, so why deal with the hassle when you can go into defense mode early and stave off frivolous court proceedings? I agree, it sucks.
1) In this case the cruise company was at fault, so that is why they went into "don't get sued" mode. No need rely on a stereotype here.
2) I'm not an American but I think your legal system is very good and many objective people do too: http://www.quora.com/Litigation-and-Lawsuits/Why-are-America...
3) I'd recommend anyone to watch Hot Coffee [1] which documents the lobbying and spin that encourages American citizens to think there is a problem with "frivolous lawsuits"
[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1445203/
2) I'm not an American but I think your legal system is very good and many objective people do too: http://www.quora.com/Litigation-and-Lawsuits/Why-are-America...
3) I'd recommend anyone to watch Hot Coffee [1] which documents the lobbying and spin that encourages American citizens to think there is a problem with "frivolous lawsuits"
[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1445203/
Is there a movie based on the notion that anything that happens when you carry a cup of hot coffee in a motor vehicle is automatically your fault, and that 1000 burn injuries is no big deal when n >> 1000000000 cups served? I'd be more interested in watching that one, I think.
It would probably be more amusing for you to watch the movie where a guy gets handed a 190 degree cup of coffee (30 more than normal) in a flimsy paper cup.
The part where the cup disintegrates and leaves the person with 3rd degree burns on their crotch would be the highlight. The punch line would be the owner of the store saving $10 on coffee costs per month because he keeps the coffee too hot.
The part where the cup disintegrates and leaves the person with 3rd degree burns on their crotch would be the highlight. The punch line would be the owner of the store saving $10 on coffee costs per month because he keeps the coffee too hot.
With language barriers, the people we initially had to deal with had no real capability to determine fault. I think the security people who took down the incident report weren't even the same security who had to deal with the actual incident. I'd have to imagine their practices are standard and are along the lines of "don't admit fault; make sure passenger signs what we want her to sign". They acted as investigators and signing coercers and little more. Any decisions that were made were made later on.
I was more upset with them trying to bill us three months later. We had filed a formal complaint on our last day of the trip over the poor response and had spoken with one of the guest services managers for close to 30 minutes. So when a letter from the cruise line came three months later, I was expecting an apology, not a bill.
When this happened, my wife was in the final year of law school, so our response to the bill was probably atypical of a normal customer response, but even when they told us we wouldn't be responsible for the money and that they'd give us a credit for a future cruise, they still made sure to dismiss their liability and deny that they breached any duties.
One of the gross things with the incident was that another passenger started cleaning up the blood because no crew was doing it. Another passenger was a doctor and stepped in to help stop the bleeding while we waited for a wheelchair to take us to the doctor.
I was more upset with them trying to bill us three months later. We had filed a formal complaint on our last day of the trip over the poor response and had spoken with one of the guest services managers for close to 30 minutes. So when a letter from the cruise line came three months later, I was expecting an apology, not a bill.
When this happened, my wife was in the final year of law school, so our response to the bill was probably atypical of a normal customer response, but even when they told us we wouldn't be responsible for the money and that they'd give us a credit for a future cruise, they still made sure to dismiss their liability and deny that they breached any duties.
One of the gross things with the incident was that another passenger started cleaning up the blood because no crew was doing it. Another passenger was a doctor and stepped in to help stop the bleeding while we waited for a wheelchair to take us to the doctor.
Which cruise line was this? I worked for a company which did supported telemedicine on cruise lines and I really hope it wasn't a customer of theirs.
The problem is that people sue over everything, so why deal with the hassle when you can go into defense mode early and stave off frivolous court proceedings?
I suspect that going into "don't get sued" mode actually encourages lawsuits.
I read an article a while back that indicated the doctors with the highest rate of malpractice suits were not the ones who made the most errors but the ones who were the least empathetic. There has been at least one study that concluded insensitivity and poor communication after the incident was a major factor in the decision to sue.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7911925
I suspect that going into "don't get sued" mode actually encourages lawsuits.
I read an article a while back that indicated the doctors with the highest rate of malpractice suits were not the ones who made the most errors but the ones who were the least empathetic. There has been at least one study that concluded insensitivity and poor communication after the incident was a major factor in the decision to sue.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7911925
One potential solution could be to adopt a UK-esque legal process whereby the loser of a tort suit pays the legal fees. If you risk paying huge legal bills by filing a lawsuit, you'll be less likely to do so unless the case is a slam dunk.
Low level cruise employees ... are paid ridiculously low wages
The service staff work for tips. No wages. No benefits.
I was shocked when I first heard this. I asked around, a lot. Everyone confirmed.
I personally hate the cruise ship experience. The master/servant dynamic makes me very uncomfortable.
The service staff work for tips. No wages. No benefits.
I was shocked when I first heard this. I asked around, a lot. Everyone confirmed.
I personally hate the cruise ship experience. The master/servant dynamic makes me very uncomfortable.
My wife is from the Philippines and her friend works for Princess cruises and he loves it (he is a bartender). He gets to travel, meet interesting people, and he makes several times what he would make at home. I doubt the experience of the staff is much different from the experience of those working the same jobs back home, or possibly better.
I love it how everyone is extrapolating their personal cruise ship experiences -> every cruise ship in the world ever.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+are+cruise+ship+wor...
That their working conditions are only mostly terrible is sufficient for me to act on my values.
I'll give analogy. WalMart screws their workers, their suppliers, and their host governments (and by extension us tax payers). Not in every case. But enough to piss me off.
So, yea, I'm not shopping at WalMart. Maybe they're not all bad. Sorting it all out is too much work. Especially when I have plenty of options that are mostly good.
That their working conditions are only mostly terrible is sufficient for me to act on my values.
I'll give analogy. WalMart screws their workers, their suppliers, and their host governments (and by extension us tax payers). Not in every case. But enough to piss me off.
So, yea, I'm not shopping at WalMart. Maybe they're not all bad. Sorting it all out is too much work. Especially when I have plenty of options that are mostly good.
2) Internet is expensive, slow, and charges by the minute).
I worked remotely from a cruise ship that went around Hawaii for a week in 2007 (long story). I had a small Verizon cellular router that I set up in my room. It worked well enough, and I didn't have to use the ship's (presumably) crappy wi-fi, or pay by the minute or whatever.
Plus, when I'm coding, my bandwidth needs aren't that great.
I'd assume that using your phone as a hotspot today would work equally well in that scenario.
I worked remotely from a cruise ship that went around Hawaii for a week in 2007 (long story). I had a small Verizon cellular router that I set up in my room. It worked well enough, and I didn't have to use the ship's (presumably) crappy wi-fi, or pay by the minute or whatever.
Plus, when I'm coding, my bandwidth needs aren't that great.
I'd assume that using your phone as a hotspot today would work equally well in that scenario.
Now that T-Mobile has unlimited international roaming I can't wait to try this out on my next trip. It is only 2G but that is faster than ship internet.
Now imagine how much undistracted work you could get done on a six-month trip to Mars.
Great work on the article and CruiseSheet.com. Could you update the "From" dropdown to combine "New York, New York" and "New York, NY"?
Prediction: This will be a trend. People are less likely to be married now than they used to be. People increasingly feel loyalty to a culture rather than a country. Internet access on cruise ships will become cheaper.
Already this is a trend, but for senior citizens. Many of them use cruise ships as retirement communities for nearly similar reasons.
http://www.aplaceformom.com/blog/2013-2-2-cruise-ship-retire...
"According to Dr. Lee Lindquist’s 2004 study comparing assisted living costs and benefits to those offered by cruise ships, “cruises were priced similarly to assisted living centers and were more efficacious.” Lindquist claimed that over a 20-year life expectancy, cruise ships only cost about $2,000 more than the cost of assisted living. And, she says, “when you compare that to the $9,000 a month or more charged by some assisted living facilities,” a cruise ship may seem like a bargain indeed."
http://www.aplaceformom.com/blog/2013-2-2-cruise-ship-retire...
"According to Dr. Lee Lindquist’s 2004 study comparing assisted living costs and benefits to those offered by cruise ships, “cruises were priced similarly to assisted living centers and were more efficacious.” Lindquist claimed that over a 20-year life expectancy, cruise ships only cost about $2,000 more than the cost of assisted living. And, she says, “when you compare that to the $9,000 a month or more charged by some assisted living facilities,” a cruise ship may seem like a bargain indeed."
[deleted]
The idea of being able to travel around the world with just a laptop reminds me of being a 21st century writer. Take the notepad to a remote beach and just write. I love the idea of working on a cruise ship but I imagine it would get kind of hard to code without internet. Is that something you face?
As much as id like to work from different places alot, i just cant stand the fact of being hunched over a laptop all day. Most of these places that are not an office, just arent very ergonomic.
This could be somewhat bad for the cruise industry. I think cruises sell at a loss and hope to make there money back through alcohol spas, gambling or things someone working folks will not do.
I find Las Vegas is a great place to get work done, assuming you don't have a gambling addiction and don't mind working from hotel rooms. Hotels are super cheap, food is reasonable (if you're careful where you eat), and you can usually find cheap flights.
Downsides: You'll need a wireless hotspot since hotels charge too much for internet access (ones without resort fees). Starbucks is overpriced and there aren't many other coffee shops on the strip.
Downsides: You'll need a wireless hotspot since hotels charge too much for internet access (ones without resort fees). Starbucks is overpriced and there aren't many other coffee shops on the strip.
Hmm, I wonder if I could publish a dd-wrt fork that requires you to pay me $0.20 to $0.70 per minute for internet access.
Great post. Being new in my entrepreneurial career I'm just learning the pleasures of working from anywhere.
I live in San Diego, but a few weeks ago I drove up to NorCal to visit the parents. While there I attended Startup School in the bay area. The next week I flew to Boston and stayed with a friend in Cambridge and attended WordCamp Boston. I attended the Business of Software conference next and stayed at the Seaport Hotel. At the end of the conference I took the short ride to Cape Cod and stayed there for a week or so with some family. It was a little chilly this time of year, but with everyone gone during the day and the tourist season over I could really enjoy the beauty and eat at all of the great restaurants. It's incredibly peaceful. I even spent some time at the Chatham Bars Inn and worked from there...absolutely incredible.
By staying with friends and family and managing costs the whole few weeks probably cost around $1,000 including plane tickets. The most expensive thing was the three nights at the Seaport Hotel, which cost around $500 even though I split the room with someone. It would have been a lot more if my wife was with me since we would have wanted to do more.
So now I'm back in NorCal staying with my parents. I'll probably stay here through Thanksgiving then head back home to San Diego for the winter.
This lifestyle really is incredible. It'll be interesting to see how it works out when my wife and I have kids, I assume it'll be a pain in the ass. I can't believe I had a 'real' job for so long. Sure I work about 2x as much, but I love it. Besides, it's really only work if you'd rather be doing something else.
I live in San Diego, but a few weeks ago I drove up to NorCal to visit the parents. While there I attended Startup School in the bay area. The next week I flew to Boston and stayed with a friend in Cambridge and attended WordCamp Boston. I attended the Business of Software conference next and stayed at the Seaport Hotel. At the end of the conference I took the short ride to Cape Cod and stayed there for a week or so with some family. It was a little chilly this time of year, but with everyone gone during the day and the tourist season over I could really enjoy the beauty and eat at all of the great restaurants. It's incredibly peaceful. I even spent some time at the Chatham Bars Inn and worked from there...absolutely incredible.
By staying with friends and family and managing costs the whole few weeks probably cost around $1,000 including plane tickets. The most expensive thing was the three nights at the Seaport Hotel, which cost around $500 even though I split the room with someone. It would have been a lot more if my wife was with me since we would have wanted to do more.
So now I'm back in NorCal staying with my parents. I'll probably stay here through Thanksgiving then head back home to San Diego for the winter.
This lifestyle really is incredible. It'll be interesting to see how it works out when my wife and I have kids, I assume it'll be a pain in the ass. I can't believe I had a 'real' job for so long. Sure I work about 2x as much, but I love it. Besides, it's really only work if you'd rather be doing something else.
This guys is enjoying life while making money and seeing the world. Who am I to argue :) I'm not sure what I would do without internet for that long (especially since I listen to internet radio all the time), but if you can get past that, more power to you.
Internet on cruise ships is fairly cheap
I can't wait for a Google Driverless Car to essentially be the same thing for me.
I order one with my cell phone, it shows up, I hop in, type my destination, and then I can ignore the world while I'm getting stuff done. Or sleeping.
I get to see interesting places, but get stuff done.
I order one with my cell phone, it shows up, I hop in, type my destination, and then I can ignore the world while I'm getting stuff done. Or sleeping.
I get to see interesting places, but get stuff done.
Not for me: I get horribly carsick if I try to read inside of a moving car.
If I could SLEEP in a Google Driverless Car that would be awesome. And there's no real reason it should feel like car seats, if there's a more comfortable design.
On a Friday night, I could order a car from my phone, hop in, fall asleep, wake up in destination city on Saturday morning. On Sunday evening, I go home, waking up on Monday morning right outside my office. It'd be awesome.
On a Friday night, I could order a car from my phone, hop in, fall asleep, wake up in destination city on Saturday morning. On Sunday evening, I go home, waking up on Monday morning right outside my office. It'd be awesome.
Can't tell if trolling or serious...
Take a train.
Take a train.
Yeah, okay, I'll take a train...
That requires that I get from where I am to a train station. That also requires that the train leaves NOW to get to my destination. That also requires that the train has anything like a reasonable route to my destination. That also requires I get from the destination train station to the actual destination.
I'll just take a train to the Grand Canyon.
That requires that I get from where I am to a train station. That also requires that the train leaves NOW to get to my destination. That also requires that the train has anything like a reasonable route to my destination. That also requires I get from the destination train station to the actual destination.
I'll just take a train to the Grand Canyon.
He's serious, and so am I. Trains go on rails, so a driverless car can go many places trains can't. Can't wait for it to become reality either. Like in Children of Men, but with time better.
I think Vernor Vinge's depiction of the future of driverless cars in Rainbows End was interesting, and something that could actually happen someday.
If you haven't read it, in the book, there are numerous driverless cars that operate a bit like taxis: you can hail one or you can summon one. They take you to your destination, and then rejoin the pool of free cars that are ready to take people places.
There's a minor plot point where one of the characters fights with the embedded logic of the car, which refuses to take him where he wants to go (and indeed refuses to just "stop the damn car so I can get out" since he wants to get out along the shoulder of a freeway on-ramp or something like that).
Vinge's driverless cars are neat (I would be 99% happy with them) but they subvert the automobile's typical role in American society: rather than being an enabler of rugged independence, it only allows you to go where the state says you may go.
If you haven't read it, in the book, there are numerous driverless cars that operate a bit like taxis: you can hail one or you can summon one. They take you to your destination, and then rejoin the pool of free cars that are ready to take people places.
There's a minor plot point where one of the characters fights with the embedded logic of the car, which refuses to take him where he wants to go (and indeed refuses to just "stop the damn car so I can get out" since he wants to get out along the shoulder of a freeway on-ramp or something like that).
Vinge's driverless cars are neat (I would be 99% happy with them) but they subvert the automobile's typical role in American society: rather than being an enabler of rugged independence, it only allows you to go where the state says you may go.
Are you sure Children of Men is the movie you meant to reference? Seems like an odd future to aspire to...
In the US, even if you are willing to deal with the vagaries of erratic schedules, long-distance trains are problematic for the kind of hacker tourism that many on HN might be interested in, but still doable. Some observations to share from my own experiences:
Multi-day long-distances are best experienced in a cabin with a shower facility. These cabins get booked out a month or longer in advance. This cuts down on the ability to make short-notice trip decisions.
These cabins are not lockable except by the conductor. You need to be sensible with your gear, and don't draw attention to it. I took my laptop with me when I went to meals in the dining car or to sit in the observation car.
Temperature control is largely set by the conductor or porter. There are thermostats in the cabins, but I never actually have seen them work.
Internet connectivity on most lines is bring-your-own-Internet; Northeast lines have more options, Midwest/Western/Southern lines are the ones that are BYOI. With a Sprint 3G/4G modem, I mostly got 3G except near the major metro areas, and was able to get some work done, but definitely not anything that counted upon heavy connectivity. Web browsing and terminal-based work via SSH and screen (or similar) was easily doable; anything needing RDP or X11 was pretty much out of the question once you left the major metro areas. VPN is a crap shoot; sometimes the connection is not stable enough. There are vast deserts of absolutely zero connectivity out in the Western US.
Voice phone connectivity is surprisingly good, except in those aforementioned deserts.
Passengers keep to themselves if they see you wearing headphones. It is super easy to find a spot on the train, pop on the headphones (you don't actually need to be listening to anything, or even be plugged into anything), then hit your zone and crank some work out.
Trains are almost ideal for traveling young families. If you are on a $100K-type per annum income and live within your means, then the family cabins that include meals are not a stretch on that kind of budget, many young children are utterly enthralled with trains, and you get to introduce the youngsters to people from many walks of life. Though keep the trip to around two days, and break up longer trips with multiple day stays in towns in between if you can; longer than two days and they start to get bored. Use a car service at either end of the train trip, and it becomes a pretty comfortable way to travel with children compared to planes.
Luggage check-in and pick up is far easier than at airports, but there are limits, and Amtrak is far stricter with sticking to those limits than the airlines with their baggage rules. Trip check-in without the security lines is much less time-consuming than at airports.
Any carry-ons you cannot fit into your cabin are stowed out in the open in some storage bays. This has never presented a problem for me, though at times I have used a locking luggage cable when my paranoia got the better of me. Cabins don't have much storage space beyond what can fit underneath the beds.
If you are comfortable with taking a shower inside the tiny closet that the toilet is in, then you'll be fresh and clean on multiple-day trips. This is the same kind of setup that you have on smaller cruising sailboats. If that kind of setup raises your ick factor, reconsider long train trips.
Meals in the dining cars are generally smaller portions than what you get a restaurant. For Europeans, the portions are normal. Frequent diners of an Applebee's or Outback Steakhouse are going to think the portions are on the small side. The snack bar topped off gluttons like me (I generally try to eat low-carb+high-protein, and carry on board my protein bars and a jar of nuts). On a $100K-type income, the meal and snack prices are not a big deal, though the fiscal and nutritional values are generally absent with some offerings. If you book a cabin, meals can be delivered for dining in your cabin, valuable if you are in crunch mode on something.
Motion was not really an issue; I was very pleasantly surprised at the comfort quality of the ride.
If you stay in a cabin, then tip your porter well when they help you board, and they will bend over backwards to make your trip enjoyable. I tip $50 (which is considered huge and extravagant) and our porters always sought to make sure our cabin was secure and comfortable, we had whatever drinks we wanted delivered to our cabin (water bottles, juices and coffees are served at a refreshments station in the middle of the car), our carry-ons got stowed regardless of whether there was room for them or not, and that we got our pick of meal times (dining car service is by time slot reservation).
I really wish Amtrak would expand their Auto Train service everywhere. Think "land ferry".
http://www.amtrak.com/auto-train
If I had serious FU money, then I would get a private railroad car (or two) built, hitch a ride to someplace interesting along Amtrak's routes, divert to a rail siding, and bounce around the US. I looked into it, and it seems Amtrak actually hauls private railroad cars. There is even an association of private railroad car owners (AAPRCO). I could bring along my own automobile, those diesel-electric engines supply a huge amount of high-voltage power, with that kind of platform and money satellite Internet becomes feasible, and there seem to be a lot of interesting stories out there in those towns (if nothing else I could scout for interesting places for offices).
Multi-day long-distances are best experienced in a cabin with a shower facility. These cabins get booked out a month or longer in advance. This cuts down on the ability to make short-notice trip decisions.
These cabins are not lockable except by the conductor. You need to be sensible with your gear, and don't draw attention to it. I took my laptop with me when I went to meals in the dining car or to sit in the observation car.
Temperature control is largely set by the conductor or porter. There are thermostats in the cabins, but I never actually have seen them work.
Internet connectivity on most lines is bring-your-own-Internet; Northeast lines have more options, Midwest/Western/Southern lines are the ones that are BYOI. With a Sprint 3G/4G modem, I mostly got 3G except near the major metro areas, and was able to get some work done, but definitely not anything that counted upon heavy connectivity. Web browsing and terminal-based work via SSH and screen (or similar) was easily doable; anything needing RDP or X11 was pretty much out of the question once you left the major metro areas. VPN is a crap shoot; sometimes the connection is not stable enough. There are vast deserts of absolutely zero connectivity out in the Western US.
Voice phone connectivity is surprisingly good, except in those aforementioned deserts.
Passengers keep to themselves if they see you wearing headphones. It is super easy to find a spot on the train, pop on the headphones (you don't actually need to be listening to anything, or even be plugged into anything), then hit your zone and crank some work out.
Trains are almost ideal for traveling young families. If you are on a $100K-type per annum income and live within your means, then the family cabins that include meals are not a stretch on that kind of budget, many young children are utterly enthralled with trains, and you get to introduce the youngsters to people from many walks of life. Though keep the trip to around two days, and break up longer trips with multiple day stays in towns in between if you can; longer than two days and they start to get bored. Use a car service at either end of the train trip, and it becomes a pretty comfortable way to travel with children compared to planes.
Luggage check-in and pick up is far easier than at airports, but there are limits, and Amtrak is far stricter with sticking to those limits than the airlines with their baggage rules. Trip check-in without the security lines is much less time-consuming than at airports.
Any carry-ons you cannot fit into your cabin are stowed out in the open in some storage bays. This has never presented a problem for me, though at times I have used a locking luggage cable when my paranoia got the better of me. Cabins don't have much storage space beyond what can fit underneath the beds.
If you are comfortable with taking a shower inside the tiny closet that the toilet is in, then you'll be fresh and clean on multiple-day trips. This is the same kind of setup that you have on smaller cruising sailboats. If that kind of setup raises your ick factor, reconsider long train trips.
Meals in the dining cars are generally smaller portions than what you get a restaurant. For Europeans, the portions are normal. Frequent diners of an Applebee's or Outback Steakhouse are going to think the portions are on the small side. The snack bar topped off gluttons like me (I generally try to eat low-carb+high-protein, and carry on board my protein bars and a jar of nuts). On a $100K-type income, the meal and snack prices are not a big deal, though the fiscal and nutritional values are generally absent with some offerings. If you book a cabin, meals can be delivered for dining in your cabin, valuable if you are in crunch mode on something.
Motion was not really an issue; I was very pleasantly surprised at the comfort quality of the ride.
If you stay in a cabin, then tip your porter well when they help you board, and they will bend over backwards to make your trip enjoyable. I tip $50 (which is considered huge and extravagant) and our porters always sought to make sure our cabin was secure and comfortable, we had whatever drinks we wanted delivered to our cabin (water bottles, juices and coffees are served at a refreshments station in the middle of the car), our carry-ons got stowed regardless of whether there was room for them or not, and that we got our pick of meal times (dining car service is by time slot reservation).
I really wish Amtrak would expand their Auto Train service everywhere. Think "land ferry".
http://www.amtrak.com/auto-train
If I had serious FU money, then I would get a private railroad car (or two) built, hitch a ride to someplace interesting along Amtrak's routes, divert to a rail siding, and bounce around the US. I looked into it, and it seems Amtrak actually hauls private railroad cars. There is even an association of private railroad car owners (AAPRCO). I could bring along my own automobile, those diesel-electric engines supply a huge amount of high-voltage power, with that kind of platform and money satellite Internet becomes feasible, and there seem to be a lot of interesting stories out there in those towns (if nothing else I could scout for interesting places for offices).
Thanks for your reply, there were some very interesting points in there. I know several amateur pilots, but it never occurred to me that you can pay a railroad to haul your own car around for you.
I went on my first cruise last year, 4 days, and it was one of the worst vacation experiences of my life. Don't go when school is out unless you're planning on bringing your asshole children and letting them roam free with the other kids.
Folks who are interested in this in terms of lack of distractions might also want to consider doing commercial freighter cruises.
I'm actually not into the whole cruise entertainment experience anyway and would appreciate a few weeks to mostly be a loner while my needs are taken care of. Commercial Freight is a fantastic idea that I plan on doing hopefully next year.
I had this same experience working in Cuba for a month. I was writing, so I didn't need internet. They don't have it there, except for occasional slow access in certain access points, where I went to handle correspondence once a week.
I stayed in a family's house. They cooked, cleaned and made coffee. I had zero responsibilities. Results:
I wrote 50% more than usual. I read 7 novels, including Moby Dick. I socialized more than usual. I exercised and went for long walks every day. I studied for the GMAT.
Not having internet was very helpful, but outsourcing all domestic tasks made a huge difference.
I stayed in a family's house. They cooked, cleaned and made coffee. I had zero responsibilities. Results:
I wrote 50% more than usual. I read 7 novels, including Moby Dick. I socialized more than usual. I exercised and went for long walks every day. I studied for the GMAT.
Not having internet was very helpful, but outsourcing all domestic tasks made a huge difference.
I am currently on a trip to Miami where I am actively working every day. For me the worst part about being away from home is finding a decent workspace where I can really concentrate and get in the zone to program.
The chairs are usually terrible and anything more than a few hours seated makes me want to move somewhere else. Even when working standing (using a kitchen counter for instance) is bad: the height is sub optimal.
I would love to hear suggestions if anyone has insights or good tips for what you do in cases like this.
The chairs are usually terrible and anything more than a few hours seated makes me want to move somewhere else. Even when working standing (using a kitchen counter for instance) is bad: the height is sub optimal.
I would love to hear suggestions if anyone has insights or good tips for what you do in cases like this.
> or to get caught up in the dreaded Reddit -> Hacker News -> Reddit cycle.
Dang!
Dang!
One of the academic conferences in my field has been on a cruise on and off [1], for some of these reasons. One of the main things people like about it is that it keeps everyone together: everyone eats in the same dining room, drinks at the same bars, and it's easy to meet up and split off into impromptu discussing/working groups somewhere. Whereas in a big city people tend to diffuse, partly by income (well-paid people go to different restaurants than grad students), partly by interest, partly by what part of the city they found a hotel in. Many people also like no-internet. No temptation to respond to work emails or check Facebook during talks! And finally, it means everyone has to come for the whole conference or none of it: no showing up for half the conference, or just for your keynote.
The cost is also surprisingly low, typically coming out less in total than a typical "big hotel" conference does: when you add up conference-room rental, catering for coffee breaks and lunch, cost of hotel rooms, restaurants for dinner, etc., the cruise ship's all-in group pricing typically ends up cheaper per person, sometimes substantially so.
The downsides:
1. It looks bad externally, like academics wasting taxpayer money on a boondoggle. Even if it's cheaper, the image is too luxurious. It looks better to have a conference at a Marriott in Chicago, even if that costs the taxpayers more. It looks bad enough that some people won't come, because their source of funds won't approve the trip.
2. Flipside of the community tightness aspect is that it can feel claustrophobic to be essentially stuck at the conference, literally unable to leave the floating conference hotel.
3. No internet means certain kinds of demos won't work, or need added preparation. Although this is good practice anyway, because conference-room internet is often flaky even on land.
4. Not being able to come for only part of the conference can also be a disadvantage, since the schedule is inflexible. If you have a hard conflict anywhere in the conference, you have to skip it, since there is no way to arrive half a day late, or leave even 2 hours early.
Last year we experimented with having it in a medium-sized town with a compact city center, in a lower-cost-of-living location [2], to try to get some of the advantages without the disadvantages. I think this worked fairly well, and I personally liked it more than the cruise ship. But there is an added travel disadvantage, because there are few compact towns that also have good international airports.
[1] http://www.fdg2014.org/
[2] Chania, Crete: http://www.fdg2013.org/attendees/
The cost is also surprisingly low, typically coming out less in total than a typical "big hotel" conference does: when you add up conference-room rental, catering for coffee breaks and lunch, cost of hotel rooms, restaurants for dinner, etc., the cruise ship's all-in group pricing typically ends up cheaper per person, sometimes substantially so.
The downsides:
1. It looks bad externally, like academics wasting taxpayer money on a boondoggle. Even if it's cheaper, the image is too luxurious. It looks better to have a conference at a Marriott in Chicago, even if that costs the taxpayers more. It looks bad enough that some people won't come, because their source of funds won't approve the trip.
2. Flipside of the community tightness aspect is that it can feel claustrophobic to be essentially stuck at the conference, literally unable to leave the floating conference hotel.
3. No internet means certain kinds of demos won't work, or need added preparation. Although this is good practice anyway, because conference-room internet is often flaky even on land.
4. Not being able to come for only part of the conference can also be a disadvantage, since the schedule is inflexible. If you have a hard conflict anywhere in the conference, you have to skip it, since there is no way to arrive half a day late, or leave even 2 hours early.
Last year we experimented with having it in a medium-sized town with a compact city center, in a lower-cost-of-living location [2], to try to get some of the advantages without the disadvantages. I think this worked fairly well, and I personally liked it more than the cruise ship. But there is an added travel disadvantage, because there are few compact towns that also have good international airports.
[1] http://www.fdg2014.org/
[2] Chania, Crete: http://www.fdg2013.org/attendees/
I guess another downside would be the connectivity problem, especially if you stream the presentations for remote participants, and anyway conference goers are constantly on their laptops connecting with work or whatever.
I like the floating village concept, though, and I guess everyone would be pretty relaxed overall, maybe bring the family as well, and what a way to combine vacation with work!
I like the floating village concept, though, and I guess everyone would be pretty relaxed overall, maybe bring the family as well, and what a way to combine vacation with work!
Where are keynotes or big talks held. I did not know ships had rooms where hundreds of people could listen to a presentatio. Do cruise ships have projctors/screens?
Many ships have auditoriums with projectors/screens. They're used for various kinds of shows during the cruise, but you can often arrange with them (far ahead of time, as part of booking the conference) to have use of the auditorium during certain hours.
The 2009 version of this conference was on a Disney cruise ship, and the keynotes and plenum sessions were in the auditorium/theatre pictured here: http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f8/t006888.html
The 2009 version of this conference was on a Disney cruise ship, and the keynotes and plenum sessions were in the auditorium/theatre pictured here: http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f8/t006888.html
According to his site, the daily rate is actually cheaper to take a cruise than to pay rent on a 3 bdr house in much of the bay area.
I took a cruise earlier this year with my girlfriend and we paid $600 combined. After tips and a lot of boozing, we ended up spending around $1000 combined an average of $100 per day. You can do it for a lot cheaper as well, plus we weren't using the internet.
I'd do it again in a heartbeat and work if there was a steady internet connection.
I'd do it again in a heartbeat and work if there was a steady internet connection.
Interesting idea, but the lack of internet to look things up easily could be a headache. I suppose it would help if you already have expert-level knowledge in the tech stack that you're working in, and/or you can download local copies of lots of documentation.
I find that for myself, that when I work without Internet access, the boost I get from a lack of distractions usually cancels out the problems caused by inability to look things up. A lot of the time, having to figure out things that I would usually look up helps me to think more deeply about the problem at hand. Downloading a manual or two is often all I really need to be productive offline.
Regarding the internet - one can set up the iodined server somewhere at home http://dev.kryo.se/iodine/wiki/HowtoSetup and use elinks to browse internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELinks) . m.facebook.com, m.google.com, m.gmail.com have light, html-only versions of their websites, which works OK in slow net conditions.
I would like to have an app that learn from my browsing usage and from time to time caches my favorite part of the internet (for example in my case it would cache the hacker news site 1 link deep from front page)
I would like to have an app that learn from my browsing usage and from time to time caches my favorite part of the internet (for example in my case it would cache the hacker news site 1 link deep from front page)
That sounds like a great idea. I've tried programming on a trans-siberian train ride, but it was SO HARD to get any exercise at all - feels unhealthy. Plus you end up thinking about food a lot (missing good food, mostly).
One of the reasons I enjoy cruises so much. So easy to disconnect from the rest of the world, but you still have access if you really need it. I bought an hour of internet on the last cruise we took to ration for the week, mostly to check email once a day. I used RDP on the way to Puerto Rico from my cabin to fix a quick server issue also. Connection was useable, but very laggy (as expected).
I've always wondered about this, the relative price of cruises make it a cool place to do the work from home thing. I lived in Costa Rica for 6 months while working from home, and it was a great experience. I was wondering about the internet connection, and I guess if you don't have to maintain visibility via some chat program then I guess you wouldn't really need it that often.
This is a pretty great idea. I'm trying to travel and work on a few projects right now, and my average is turning out to be around $75-$100 per day for the US. $50 per day sounds like a fun, cheap way to get some work done, assuming you can get access to the internet at least in some capacity.
Am I the only person left who enjoys having a nice comfy office, a nice beefy desktop, some books and a nice little sound system?
Even some co-workers who you can bounce ideas off of.
I find working for long periods on nothing but a laptop challenging.
Even some co-workers who you can bounce ideas off of.
I find working for long periods on nothing but a laptop challenging.
Lot's of choices on the West Coast as well, looks like you can go up to Alaska and down to Santiago, or over to Hawaii.
Interesting idea, although it's going to be a really tough sell to go without the family. :/
Interesting idea, although it's going to be a really tough sell to go without the family. :/
Great idea. Pretty sure I wouldn't get much done with limited internet access though. Maybe I'll try to simulate limited connectivity for a while a see how it goes...
Airport trips I like the most for the same reason, but they never take 9+ days. Tynan made a good point.
"Airport trips"? Can you elaborate?
When I was a student and had lots of free-time in the summer. I did some trips where I intentionally spent long hours on airports. Taking advantage of the many low-cost airlines in Europe, once I managed to buy a whole Budapest-London-Cork, Dublin-Barcelona, Barcelona-Budapest trip for $120. That made a trip with 5 flights, 8 different airports in 7 days and 3 cities where I actually stayed over.
I find airports very neutral in-between spaces and thus perfect for concentration and work.
I find airports very neutral in-between spaces and thus perfect for concentration and work.
Whatever works for you.
My favourite places to work are all-inclusive holiday resorts. Lanzarote and the Algarve most recently. Being all inclusive means there is no thought process in eating or drinking. Nor any need to shop, clean, cook.
The most difficult thing is finding out what the internet situation is in hotels - but this has vastly improved even in the last year. I generally call up reception, and travel with an ethernet cable.
Incidentally for an individual or a couple, Airbnb is generally far more expensive than a reasonable half-board hotel. I've only ever found Airbnb type stuff useful in capital cities.
I've been at my most productive working in:
- Wetherspoons in Slough
- An apartment in Cairo
- A bungalow in Lanzarote
- The lobby of the Apex hotel in Dundee (current)
Downsides are seeing a laptop screen in the sun (wear a dark shirt) and being surrounded by happy couples while on one's own.
(I'm back to Lanzarote for a week at the start of December if anyone fancies a coffee)