If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming(dump.com)
dump.com
If people tried to pay for other services like they try to pay for programming
http://www.dump.com/2010/12/13/the-vendor-client-relationship-in-real-world-situations-video/
127 comments
I bargain for almost everything (much to my wife's embarrassment :). One thing I've found, is that if you can't get them to reduce the price, you can often get extras thrown in. I recently bought a fairly expensive coffee machine (a real one, not one of those electronic ones); supplier wouldn't budge on price, but I did manage to get $400 credited to my account, 2x barrista training vouchers worth $150 each, and a few other little bits. Extra value to me, over $700. Cost to supplier, assuming reasonable markup, probably less than $300. Win win.
Edit: few things:
* Most important of all - don't be a dick. Be friendly, honest and don't waste people's time
* If you can, hold of your purchase until you get the deal you're looking for. When I got my macbook, I when to a number of places and in the end got free applecare and a free case.
* If you're buying white/brown goods (except computers), a simple "What price can you do on that?" will almost always see a 10% discount, sometimes way more.
* Some stock is in constant demand, and you'll almost never get a discount. Black mens trousers, for example.
* If something on offer, the person selling it want's to get rid of it, and will most likely negotiate. Best example is food at the end of the day. Walking past a stand discounting the remaining donuts for $6/box, but you've only got $4? Make an offer anyway.
er... think I'l stop before this looks like a post on Lifehacker or something :)
Edit: few things:
* Most important of all - don't be a dick. Be friendly, honest and don't waste people's time
* If you can, hold of your purchase until you get the deal you're looking for. When I got my macbook, I when to a number of places and in the end got free applecare and a free case.
* If you're buying white/brown goods (except computers), a simple "What price can you do on that?" will almost always see a 10% discount, sometimes way more.
* Some stock is in constant demand, and you'll almost never get a discount. Black mens trousers, for example.
* If something on offer, the person selling it want's to get rid of it, and will most likely negotiate. Best example is food at the end of the day. Walking past a stand discounting the remaining donuts for $6/box, but you've only got $4? Make an offer anyway.
er... think I'l stop before this looks like a post on Lifehacker or something :)
Great comment.
> * Some stock is in constant demand, and you'll almost never get a discount. Black mens trousers, for example.
The flipside is, if you're a guy and you're willing to wear light blue, pink, purple, and yellow, you can get some seriously great buys. You can get very high quality clothes in those colors for dirt cheap sometimes, which is why around half of my wardrobe is bright.
It takes a little aesthetic knowledge so you don't look ridiculous, but everyone should probably learn a little basic aesthetics anyways - it's one of those areas that a tiny bit of knowledge pays huge dividends.
> * Some stock is in constant demand, and you'll almost never get a discount. Black mens trousers, for example.
The flipside is, if you're a guy and you're willing to wear light blue, pink, purple, and yellow, you can get some seriously great buys. You can get very high quality clothes in those colors for dirt cheap sometimes, which is why around half of my wardrobe is bright.
It takes a little aesthetic knowledge so you don't look ridiculous, but everyone should probably learn a little basic aesthetics anyways - it's one of those areas that a tiny bit of knowledge pays huge dividends.
It takes a little aesthetic knowledge so you don't look ridiculous, but everyone should probably learn a little basic aesthetics anyways - it's one of those areas that a tiny bit of knowledge pays huge dividends.
Very true, but how does one go about gaining this knowledge?
Very true, but how does one go about gaining this knowledge?
Try strange things, see if people chuckle.
(Experience is a harsh teacher.)
(Experience is a harsh teacher.)
Here's a few suggestions, in ascending order of subjective difficulty to the average HN user:
Smashing Magazine (which doubles as good for web design).
Study the color wheel, read analyses of ways to use it.
Fashion websites.
Go to lots of museums.
Go to art galleries.
Flip through 2-3 fashion magazines per month at the bookstore.
Read book(s) on how to dress for different functions.
Go to high end stores and try things on.
Talk to artists, designers, architects, painters, etc. about why things look the way they look.
Take some art class, either crafting/doing-based, or art history.
Go with some sort of visual artist to a museum, and ask their thoughts about paintings.
Get a girlfriend/boyfriend/significant other who is an artist.
Any of those would help. The more you layer on, probably the faster you learn.
Also, study fashion/clothing advertisements. Scrutinize and analyze why they chose what they chose... many fashion ads will be regarded as high art in the distant future, because immense amounts of preparation, lighting, setting, and skill goes into making them. Almost anything that's in one is in it for a reason. Look at it and ask, "Why did they choose this? What are they trying to say/portray? Why this background/environment with that sort of clothing?" It's not instant gratification on the last one, but soon you start seeing the patterns. It's kind of beautifully awesome when you do.
Smashing Magazine (which doubles as good for web design).
Study the color wheel, read analyses of ways to use it.
Fashion websites.
Go to lots of museums.
Go to art galleries.
Flip through 2-3 fashion magazines per month at the bookstore.
Read book(s) on how to dress for different functions.
Go to high end stores and try things on.
Talk to artists, designers, architects, painters, etc. about why things look the way they look.
Take some art class, either crafting/doing-based, or art history.
Go with some sort of visual artist to a museum, and ask their thoughts about paintings.
Get a girlfriend/boyfriend/significant other who is an artist.
Any of those would help. The more you layer on, probably the faster you learn.
Also, study fashion/clothing advertisements. Scrutinize and analyze why they chose what they chose... many fashion ads will be regarded as high art in the distant future, because immense amounts of preparation, lighting, setting, and skill goes into making them. Almost anything that's in one is in it for a reason. Look at it and ask, "Why did they choose this? What are they trying to say/portray? Why this background/environment with that sort of clothing?" It's not instant gratification on the last one, but soon you start seeing the patterns. It's kind of beautifully awesome when you do.
Or you can look at all the time you'd spend doing all this, figure out the opportunity cost and simply pay full price for the pants.
"Study the color wheel, read analyses of ways to use it."
Do you have any specific resources or tips on how this relates to clothing? I've done this, and tried to argue my case in color choices based on this, but generally I've been laughed at when I bring this up. (probably because other factors also come into play and I'm about as blind as a mole when it comes to choosing colors).
Do you have any specific resources or tips on how this relates to clothing? I've done this, and tried to argue my case in color choices based on this, but generally I've been laughed at when I bring this up. (probably because other factors also come into play and I'm about as blind as a mole when it comes to choosing colors).
I've used it to pick out shirts with suits. I've picked out scarves based on my jackets. You can go monochromatic (shades of all one color) or you can do some cool three-color looks at the... points on the wheel? (sorry, I'm not so versed in the terminology)
We're talking about art here more than science, so there's no breakthrough right answer like in mathematics. My experience is that I'm more savvy and I start to notice the patterns, but my skill level isn't high enough that I can lecture on the topic intelligently. It's like, after doing all this stuff I have intuitions when shopping for clothing and dressing, and I tend to get complimented on what I wear, which didn't happen before I studied.
I hate vague answers like that - I wish I could give you something more concrete. It's not the "oh you just have to figure it out" whimsical idealism, it's that I lack the skill to give a more cohesive and concrete explanation... apologies for that. If you know anyone who is an excellent photographer or painter, and is also good at explaining things analytical, they might be able to provide more answers.
We're talking about art here more than science, so there's no breakthrough right answer like in mathematics. My experience is that I'm more savvy and I start to notice the patterns, but my skill level isn't high enough that I can lecture on the topic intelligently. It's like, after doing all this stuff I have intuitions when shopping for clothing and dressing, and I tend to get complimented on what I wear, which didn't happen before I studied.
I hate vague answers like that - I wish I could give you something more concrete. It's not the "oh you just have to figure it out" whimsical idealism, it's that I lack the skill to give a more cohesive and concrete explanation... apologies for that. If you know anyone who is an excellent photographer or painter, and is also good at explaining things analytical, they might be able to provide more answers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complimentary_colors
One tenet of color theory.
One tenet of color theory.
It also helps to know fabric. 10-15 years back, my wife wrote an article, "Fabric for Bachelors":
http://www.virtue.to/fabric/
http://www.virtue.to/fabric/
How is losing $450 a win for the seller? You mean it was a requirement to get your business, to throw in $450 of extras? I hope it was a very real coffee machine. Plumbed variety? :)
He didn't lose money, he sold something at a smaller profit (we assume he's intelligent enough that he didn't cut his margin down beyond cost). The reason it's a win for him is that it's a sale he wouldn't otherwise have made and therefore a profit he wouldn't otherwise have had.
There are potential downsides (if it was his last one he might have missed the chance to sell it for full price, it might be seen as setting a precedent) but generally salesmen understand these and figure them into their reasoning.
There are potential downsides (if it was his last one he might have missed the chance to sell it for full price, it might be seen as setting a precedent) but generally salesmen understand these and figure them into their reasoning.
[deleted]
Yeah better stop with the haggling for stale donuts ;)
What are "white/brown goods"?
What are "white/brown goods"?
White goods are washing machines, dish washers, fridges…, while brown goods are the audio/video stuff (TVs, stereo).
Kind of old fashion but based on the typical color of these items (mostly from a couple of decades or more ago: washing machines and fridges are in many colors and A/V stuff is almost always black and/or silver)
According to Wikipedia, it seems to be mostly a UK idiom.
Kind of old fashion but based on the typical color of these items (mostly from a couple of decades or more ago: washing machines and fridges are in many colors and A/V stuff is almost always black and/or silver)
According to Wikipedia, it seems to be mostly a UK idiom.
This idiom appears exactly the same in Dutch (and thus possibly other languages too?)
Italian too. We could probably say that this is an European thing. ;)
German as well :) (Weisse Ware / braune Ware)
In French too (produits blancs/bruns).
Portuguese too: branco/marrom
Línea blanca in Spanish
Browngoods refers to Bakelite. Once, all radios / radiograms were made of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite
> er... think I'l stop before this looks like a post on Lifehacker or something :)
Yea, let's lay low. We don't want gnosis thinking we're another gawker site or something.
Yea, let's lay low. We don't want gnosis thinking we're another gawker site or something.
Where did you end up getting a MacBook with free Applecare? I want in on this!
JB HiFi, Cockburn (yes, that's a real suburb (pronounced co-burn)) in Perth
Got it late one evening early 2009 or late 2008. It's one of the first gen unibody Al macbooks. Conversation was something like
<gentle discussion on price />
"Hang on, let me go check with the boss"
[few minutes later] "We can't drop the price, but if you're willing to buy it right now we can throw in free Applecare and a free case"
"Deal"
Got it late one evening early 2009 or late 2008. It's one of the first gen unibody Al macbooks. Conversation was something like
<gentle discussion on price />
"Hang on, let me go check with the boss"
[few minutes later] "We can't drop the price, but if you're willing to buy it right now we can throw in free Applecare and a free case"
"Deal"
You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective.
This is where price discrimination comes in, and it is staggeringly effective: coupons, sales, discounts, etc etc. The great thing about fixed prices is that there are so many to choose from!
This is where price discrimination comes in, and it is staggeringly effective: coupons, sales, discounts, etc etc. The great thing about fixed prices is that there are so many to choose from!
Or even easier: put the same shampoo in three different bottles and charge three different prices.
A friend worked on a documentary about a major UK supermarket a while back. Talking to them off camera they admitted that their budget range chickens and their regular chickens where identical save the packaging.
I'm not entirely surprised but I don't see where's the incentive for them to behave like this. They double the lines they must carry and are surely to some degree both undercutting themselves and overcharging so reducing sales. Surely they could achieve better results with a mid-range pricing and labelling?
When firms offer price discrimination (that's what this is called formally, offering different prices to various classes of consumer) they are making more money by taking the consumer surplus that would have been made (the extra money a consumer would have paid for the good).
Think of it this way: a rich man is willing to pay up to $10.00 for the chicken breast that his family needs for dinner, but his blue-collar cousin can only afford $6.00 at the most. Had the grocery store only created one line with the price of $8.00, their revenue from these two consumers would be only the rich man's sale, 8 dollars. If, on the other hand, the store had two lines, one for $5 and one for $10, they can make 15 dollars from these two shoppers!
Hope that clears it up.
Think of it this way: a rich man is willing to pay up to $10.00 for the chicken breast that his family needs for dinner, but his blue-collar cousin can only afford $6.00 at the most. Had the grocery store only created one line with the price of $8.00, their revenue from these two consumers would be only the rich man's sale, 8 dollars. If, on the other hand, the store had two lines, one for $5 and one for $10, they can make 15 dollars from these two shoppers!
Hope that clears it up.
No, I'm aware of the theory, I'm just not at all convinced it actually works out anything like this in practice - particularly once the extra costs of carrying the same line artificially twice are factored in. Oh well - they know their business but it still sounds fishy to me!
* I don't see where's the incentive for them to behave like this.*
They almost certainly get more money.
They are selling the budget chickens to the budget customers at a profit. They are getting the same chickens at a larger profit to other people.
They almost certainly get more money.
They are selling the budget chickens to the budget customers at a profit. They are getting the same chickens at a larger profit to other people.
Big supermarkets also lease shelf space. So they are competing with their leasees products in two different segments.
Or in a more scrupulous light: let some pay for a story and others pay for a commodity.
What I love about price discrimination is that sometimes you have to think through a few steps to figure out who the target demographics are, which makes it a sort of game for me. Sometimes it's obvious (senior discounts), but often it's a little more indirect. One of my favorites: I drive a diesel, and every Monday Shell sells their diesel at a discount of $0.10/gal. I figure that they're trying to discriminate between businesses (the overwhelming majority of diesel drivers in the U.S.) and individuals: a long-haul trucker has to buy gas right when he needs it, and probably can't just put it off until Monday; I typically use slightly more than half a tank of gas each week, so I rarely need gas so badly that I can't put it off until Monday.
The weekly diesel discount might also be a good way of attracting loyal customers from local businesses who operate diesel vehicles.
Here's a thought: Could it be a form of weak lock-in? If you fill your tank on Monday, then you're less likely to fill up at that cheaper gas station on Thursday. When the next Monday comes around, you're probably going to need to fill up again, and well, there they are :)
Though I would think if you want to get consumers rather than trucks, you would do it on Sunday becuase that is the day most truckers take off.
I learnt about price discrimination in a pop-economics book a few years ago, and it's everywhere. One of the most important things I've ever learnt.
Or "Over 65s get 10% discount on thursdays" type thing.
In many places people still haggle for most things.
Even where I live (Melbourne, Australia) a very non bargaining place, some restaurant districts have bargaining cultures. If you play your cards right, you can get wine and dessert thrown in if you order the steak, site by the window before the dinner rush (makes the restaurant look full).
My point is that bargaining norms aren't necessarily evolved from necessity, it's often just cultural quirks. This video is poking fun at a particularly quirky subculture.
Even where I live (Melbourne, Australia) a very non bargaining place, some restaurant districts have bargaining cultures. If you play your cards right, you can get wine and dessert thrown in if you order the steak, site by the window before the dinner rush (makes the restaurant look full).
My point is that bargaining norms aren't necessarily evolved from necessity, it's often just cultural quirks. This video is poking fun at a particularly quirky subculture.
I'm living in Melbourne and I am unaware of this. Wine and dessert? Surely you must be joking.
Take a walk down Lygon st or Hardware Lane of an evening. All the maitre d's will vi for your business with the best deal. You play it cool and you can get 30%+ off the menu costs especially in a large group (Lygon St for groups, Hardware Lane can be touch and go on tables as it is smaller).
I am a bit more shifty as I normally have the target place chosen before I even leave home and will try to make sure the maitre d' seeing me chatting to next door so I can play him off against them.
It is all good natured and they expect it.
I am a bit more shifty as I normally have the target place chosen before I even leave home and will try to make sure the maitre d' seeing me chatting to next door so I can play him off against them.
It is all good natured and they expect it.
Now I have an image of Lygon St spruikers madly typing in vi...
A near lifelong citizen of Fitzroy and Brunswick, I've noticed that locals have shifted heavily away from Lygon St - for me, I refuse to eat there simply because even after you've had a satisfying dinner, you can't walk down the street without being accosted by every spruiker you come across. Having to walk a couple of hundred meters continually chanting "no thanks, we just ate, we just ate" takes the shine from a good dinner. I'd rather pay for dessert and wine than run the spruiker gauntlet...
A near lifelong citizen of Fitzroy and Brunswick, I've noticed that locals have shifted heavily away from Lygon St - for me, I refuse to eat there simply because even after you've had a satisfying dinner, you can't walk down the street without being accosted by every spruiker you come across. Having to walk a couple of hundred meters continually chanting "no thanks, we just ate, we just ate" takes the shine from a good dinner. I'd rather pay for dessert and wine than run the spruiker gauntlet...
For the rest of us.
spruiker:
(Australian) One who promotes his own cause; one who toots their own horn.
(figurative) A person standing outside a place of business trying to persuade patrons to enter, or vigourously trying to persuade customers to purchase a their wares (ie. a fruiterer calling out the price of bananas)
spruiker:
(Australian) One who promotes his own cause; one who toots their own horn.
(figurative) A person standing outside a place of business trying to persuade patrons to enter, or vigourously trying to persuade customers to purchase a their wares (ie. a fruiterer calling out the price of bananas)
It can sometimes be quite surprising to learn which words are a part of your local vernacular.:)
There's the decent end of lygon where you can get great italian for cheap prices like tiamo.
then there's the gauntlet of death down the other end. we generally walk the back streets to avoid the spruikers
then there's the gauntlet of death down the other end. we generally walk the back streets to avoid the spruikers
[deleted]
Slightly related: In pretty much any store which has sales people that come and talk to you those people have the ability to knock 5-10% off if you ask for it. Cheap things aren't worth negotiating a lot for, but they certainly can be negotiated and the other side will quite happily make a small concession normally since it pays off in happy customers.
This is why always asking for a discount is worth it.
This is why always asking for a discount is worth it.
The medical equipment company I used to work for had a 5% discount that they built into every sale - people rarely paid full price, so sometimes just asking 'can you do better?' on high cost items will at least get you this "auto" discount.
Well on the software side I saw it as the difference between software as a product, versus bespoke development (although it can get fuzzy with enterprise sales, I am sure) - but the principle is the same. Many consumers == no wasting time (and no need) bargaining, vs 1 consumer: you have no choice.
True, on the other hand scenarios very similar to this do happen in real world consumer retail situations. If any of your friends work in retail show them this video and ask if they have any stories about customers.
Exactly. Funny is, I've seen this video months ago (or more) linked as 'pay for marketing/advertising/webdesign', so it applies to most industries.
Been there, had most of those (and many other similar) situations..
The worst customer experience... Once a guy called me and asked for a quote. I told I prefer hourly rate * hours worked and explained why it's better for him. He called me crazy and insisted on fixed quote, although he wasn't even sure what he exactly wants. I did fast calculation in my mind and gave him a rough quote. I was bargaining at that time and quote was really very low. Then client did a fast calculation on his end and was lecturing me for ~ 45 minutes that I'm ridiculously expensive and I won't have any clients unless I lower my prices 3x and how dare I charge average monthly salary (for probably 2+ months work...) if I never went to university and so on..
Fast forward 1.5 years - I charge 4x more than in those days and I'm fully booked...
The worst customer experience... Once a guy called me and asked for a quote. I told I prefer hourly rate * hours worked and explained why it's better for him. He called me crazy and insisted on fixed quote, although he wasn't even sure what he exactly wants. I did fast calculation in my mind and gave him a rough quote. I was bargaining at that time and quote was really very low. Then client did a fast calculation on his end and was lecturing me for ~ 45 minutes that I'm ridiculously expensive and I won't have any clients unless I lower my prices 3x and how dare I charge average monthly salary (for probably 2+ months work...) if I never went to university and so on..
Fast forward 1.5 years - I charge 4x more than in those days and I'm fully booked...
Back when I was contracting, I knew it was time to raise my rates if I hadn't been told I was too expensive recently.
After years of doing contracting, I've found a general pattern where the clients that wanted to the pay the very least, tended to cause me the most headaches, cause the most scope creep, be the most anal, etc. I also found that doing fixed fee contracts were the most likely to cause both sides problems. I also found another interesting pattern where the clients who treated me with the most skepticism or paranoia ended up being the ones who themselves were the most problematic or dishonest with me. Another pattern I've seen is that whichever side throws out a dollar figure first, almost always "loses" in the negotiations (meaning, gets a deal that is less beneficial to them in terms of dollar cost/income.) General trends, not without exceptions.
Also, there's no such thing as a single standard rate. Varies by skill set, by person, by project, by time/situation, by non-monetary factors (the strategic benefits or opportunity costs of doing a deal/project, etc.) So when someone asks me what's my rate, it signals to me that they are, at least somewhat, a newbie and/or unsophisticated (even if "experienced"). Instead, you tell me what you (think you) want. I tell you whether (I think) I can provide that. We go back and forth. Then somebody (hopefully the other guy) throws out a figure. The other accepts or counter-proposes a different figure/terms. Back and forth. Then shake/sign on something. Move on. Repeat.
Also, there's no such thing as a single standard rate. Varies by skill set, by person, by project, by time/situation, by non-monetary factors (the strategic benefits or opportunity costs of doing a deal/project, etc.) So when someone asks me what's my rate, it signals to me that they are, at least somewhat, a newbie and/or unsophisticated (even if "experienced"). Instead, you tell me what you (think you) want. I tell you whether (I think) I can provide that. We go back and forth. Then somebody (hopefully the other guy) throws out a figure. The other accepts or counter-proposes a different figure/terms. Back and forth. Then shake/sign on something. Move on. Repeat.
So is it time to go 5-6x?
the cheaper your hourly rate is, the less that people respect you, simple.
if your not told your expensive on a monthly basis your too cheap
if your not told your expensive on a monthly basis your too cheap
Hmm. Not sure if I was interpreted as saying something different (considering you have 3x the upvotes) but I agree.
If I wasn't clear, I was saying: if you're fully booked and charging 4x what you were once told is too much, are you considering increasing your rate? In general, I would say you should but I was interesting in hearing this person's thoughts.
If I wasn't clear, I was saying: if you're fully booked and charging 4x what you were once told is too much, are you considering increasing your rate? In general, I would say you should but I was interesting in hearing this person's thoughts.
There are two angles at play that got a little mixed together in the video. The first is the hard bargain during initial negotiations (ala the CD for much less) the second (and much uglier) is the restaurant, where after the work is done the client flat refuses to pay.
I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad.
I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad.
It does go both ways, though. I'm a software developer/consultant and am sympathetic to the video but lets look at from the other side.
Most pro level consulting teams work open ended time and materials contracts. There's very good reasons for this, but this definitely gets abused to deliver a project that was never expected to come in on budget. It also exposes the client to the effects of bad management or other incompetence without a lot of redress.
Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double.
The hard bargaining can go both ways too. I've included what I considered ridiculous rates in a first draft of a proposal (to give me room to negotiate) only to have them often accepted without a blink. In fact, I'm quite sure not having a standard rate card has been responsible for hundreds of thousands of extra money over the years.
It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep.
If you have a contract where's the after the fact negotiation come from anyway? Are they really willing to say then sue me?
Most pro level consulting teams work open ended time and materials contracts. There's very good reasons for this, but this definitely gets abused to deliver a project that was never expected to come in on budget. It also exposes the client to the effects of bad management or other incompetence without a lot of redress.
Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double.
The hard bargaining can go both ways too. I've included what I considered ridiculous rates in a first draft of a proposal (to give me room to negotiate) only to have them often accepted without a blink. In fact, I'm quite sure not having a standard rate card has been responsible for hundreds of thousands of extra money over the years.
It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep.
If you have a contract where's the after the fact negotiation come from anyway? Are they really willing to say then sue me?
It sounds to me like the creator of the video probably does fixed price bidding, at least in part. In my experience that's never a good idea or worth doing - even if you can manage it OK (extremely unlikely) you end up alienating the customer by having to be so anal about scope creep.
I whole heartily agree with your summation. Fixed price just sets it off on the wrong foot in the first place. What I generally do, is provide my best estimate of what the project will take. I also agree if the project runs past my estimate by 15% that I reduce my rate to my bottom dollar rate. This way I am not handing it out for free, but they understand that I am not trying to run up the clock as well. The other thing we agree on is that any feature creep pushes the estimate back by the size of the feature. I have found that this works well, gives the customer a comfort level, and though it is my rock bottom rate, I am not eating costs left and right for a project that goes bloody. It cost me opportunity costs but not hard out of pocket costs which are far harder to swallow.
I whole heartily agree with your summation. Fixed price just sets it off on the wrong foot in the first place. What I generally do, is provide my best estimate of what the project will take. I also agree if the project runs past my estimate by 15% that I reduce my rate to my bottom dollar rate. This way I am not handing it out for free, but they understand that I am not trying to run up the clock as well. The other thing we agree on is that any feature creep pushes the estimate back by the size of the feature. I have found that this works well, gives the customer a comfort level, and though it is my rock bottom rate, I am not eating costs left and right for a project that goes bloody. It cost me opportunity costs but not hard out of pocket costs which are far harder to swallow.
That's pretty smart.
Well I don't know about smart, but it is practical. The problem with our profession and the reason the video while comical is not accurate. We get compared to other professionals a lot, like doctors or lawyers but the problem is unlike doctors or lawyers, each new job we do, is like performing a completely new procedure.
I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most. The economies of scale are way out of whack to make those kind of comparisons. What other professional, in generally do is a reproduces group of processes.
Our profession is unique in the fact that while there are similarities in what we do, each new project is wholly different (if you are doing custom apps). Now we do have stuff like Wordpress that make the simple stuff cookie cutter but for the most part people are not looking for that when they hire a custom software developer. They are looking for a new and novel product. The problem is that it is one of the only professions where product development is purchased from small and unsophisticated buyers.
We really are a unique profession in which our product is still crafted and not manufactured. The problem is as a society we have gotten used to everything being manufactured so the expectation is that building software is akin to manufacturing where the reality is it is more akin to an art and just like art, their are few really talented artist to go around.
Understanding, this goes a long way to helping customers see your value without alienating them by becoming defensive. I read the horror stories about bad clients all the time and sometimes wonder if it is a lack of educating the customer. I have had maybe 2 or 3 really bad customers in my 20 years. I just don't see how luck could produce those odds. I don't think I have a secret sauce and I am sure I have turned a good deal away that would have been bad customers, I just take time to understand their needs and to explain how software development works. Usually, if someone does not feel like they are getting screwed they are pretty agreeable.
If someone comes to me and says I have 50k to build X and X looks like 40K to me, I will tell them I am not comfortable taking the gig, based on the fact if it overruns they don't have the reserve to see it through and that I do not want to leave a customer without a product at the end of 50k. They then either tell me what they can burn to, which is usually far more than needed or we both agree that they are putting their capital at risk. In which case, I try to work with them to trim features to get it to a 25k product. Double the estimate overruns are rare if one is even remotely decent at estimation.
I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most. The economies of scale are way out of whack to make those kind of comparisons. What other professional, in generally do is a reproduces group of processes.
Our profession is unique in the fact that while there are similarities in what we do, each new project is wholly different (if you are doing custom apps). Now we do have stuff like Wordpress that make the simple stuff cookie cutter but for the most part people are not looking for that when they hire a custom software developer. They are looking for a new and novel product. The problem is that it is one of the only professions where product development is purchased from small and unsophisticated buyers.
We really are a unique profession in which our product is still crafted and not manufactured. The problem is as a society we have gotten used to everything being manufactured so the expectation is that building software is akin to manufacturing where the reality is it is more akin to an art and just like art, their are few really talented artist to go around.
Understanding, this goes a long way to helping customers see your value without alienating them by becoming defensive. I read the horror stories about bad clients all the time and sometimes wonder if it is a lack of educating the customer. I have had maybe 2 or 3 really bad customers in my 20 years. I just don't see how luck could produce those odds. I don't think I have a secret sauce and I am sure I have turned a good deal away that would have been bad customers, I just take time to understand their needs and to explain how software development works. Usually, if someone does not feel like they are getting screwed they are pretty agreeable.
If someone comes to me and says I have 50k to build X and X looks like 40K to me, I will tell them I am not comfortable taking the gig, based on the fact if it overruns they don't have the reserve to see it through and that I do not want to leave a customer without a product at the end of 50k. They then either tell me what they can burn to, which is usually far more than needed or we both agree that they are putting their capital at risk. In which case, I try to work with them to trim features to get it to a 25k product. Double the estimate overruns are rare if one is even remotely decent at estimation.
"I mean if the doctor overruns putting your new liver in, it is by a few hours at most."
Speaking as someone who went to get a new filling in June, went through getting a root canal on another tooth, and finally will end up going under a GA to get some more serious work done in a month or two, I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do <i>not</i> charge on a fixed-symptom basis.
Even if you need to return to a doctor only to get a new copy of a script you have already had, most doctors will charge you the consult time.
Given that you appear to suggest there is no art to medicine, it sounds like you have no exposure to the medical world. Our profession isn't as unique as you make it out to be.
Speaking as someone who went to get a new filling in June, went through getting a root canal on another tooth, and finally will end up going under a GA to get some more serious work done in a month or two, I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do <i>not</i> charge on a fixed-symptom basis.
Even if you need to return to a doctor only to get a new copy of a script you have already had, most doctors will charge you the consult time.
Given that you appear to suggest there is no art to medicine, it sounds like you have no exposure to the medical world. Our profession isn't as unique as you make it out to be.
You are right, my exposure to medicine is pretty cut and dry, so I was speaking from my experience. As well I did not mean it as derogatory towards medicine practitioners. My summation was more geared towards routine surgery which for the majority of us, is what medicine is, check-ups and routine surgery.
Most of us are fortunate to not have medical anomalies that require anything other than routing medical attention in which case prices are pretty cut and dry. My point was when a doctor recommends a path of treatment they usually have a comfort level with that treatment and it's effectiveness.
In your case the filling, the root canal and the serious work where three separate projects. In the development world, you would get the requirements for the filling and the root canal would feature creep in as the filling was being done. That was my point, was that doctors (for the most part) have pretty fixed problem sets like root canal where developers have different problem sets for each new project.
Most of us are fortunate to not have medical anomalies that require anything other than routing medical attention in which case prices are pretty cut and dry. My point was when a doctor recommends a path of treatment they usually have a comfort level with that treatment and it's effectiveness.
In your case the filling, the root canal and the serious work where three separate projects. In the development world, you would get the requirements for the filling and the root canal would feature creep in as the filling was being done. That was my point, was that doctors (for the most part) have pretty fixed problem sets like root canal where developers have different problem sets for each new project.
* I can assure you that doctors (well, dentists) do <i>not</i> charge on a fixed-symptom basis.*
Interestingly, under the Medicare reimbursement system, that's pretty much exactly how they are paid (if the patient is a Medicare patient).
Interestingly, under the Medicare reimbursement system, that's pretty much exactly how they are paid (if the patient is a Medicare patient).
Are you honestly saying that if you go to your local bulk-billing doctor with a stubborn symptom that won't go away, necessitating multiple visits, that the doctor will only ever be paid for the first consultation? That the rest are all (metaphorically) 'bug-fixes that are included in the original fixed-price spec'?
Ain't so. Doctors get paid for their time, Medicare just has the government pay for it instead of the patient.
Also, dentists in particular are poorly covered by medicare here. I remember as a student going to a dentist that was affiliated with my uni and having the receptionist laugh when I pulled out my medicare card...
Ain't so. Doctors get paid for their time, Medicare just has the government pay for it instead of the patient.
Also, dentists in particular are poorly covered by medicare here. I remember as a student going to a dentist that was affiliated with my uni and having the receptionist laugh when I pulled out my medicare card...
You and michael_dorfman are probably talking past each other, on account of being from different countries with different "Medicare" systems. The US, Australia and Canada all have systems called "Medicare".
In the US, Medicare is only for old people, and it's uncommon for them to attend university. Also, "uni" isn't a usual American colloquialism. So it appears that michael_dorfman is talking about US Medicare, and you're probably talking about Australian Medicare.
In the US, Medicare is only for old people, and it's uncommon for them to attend university. Also, "uni" isn't a usual American colloquialism. So it appears that michael_dorfman is talking about US Medicare, and you're probably talking about Australian Medicare.
I was thinking of a hospitalization setting, where the payment is made for a DRG (a Diagnosis-Related Group) regardless of the specific procedures performed.
Cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis-related_group
Cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis-related_group
They'd have to agree that your bottom dollar rate is reasonable and that you can easily make your top dollar by spending that time elsewhere.
Sure it's about 1/3 the rate I charge, so it is reasonable for me, if they don't agree then we usually never come to a meeting of the minds. As well, I have had clients try to use it against me in negotiating my rates down, but for the few that do they either see the value of my top dollar (to somewhere in the middle) after negotiations or they find another consultant.
The reality is, I am fine with my middle rate, I expect negotiation so my mind is in the middle, if they don't negotiate, then the rest is gravy but when I go into a project, my rate reflects room to negotiate. I don't fear giving out my rock bottom rate as a tool that they can use against me based on the fact that they are receiving pressure for my time from other clientele. Having the ability to walk away from the table is the most powerful tool in ones arsenal when it comes to sitting at the negotiation table.
I believe in fairness, and I believe in making my clients comfortable with the value I provide for their dollar. I love negotiating, because it allows me to show my clients the value they are getting for their money and it allows me to make them feel like they have walked away with a deal. Both are psychologically important factors to creating happy customers.
The reality is, I am fine with my middle rate, I expect negotiation so my mind is in the middle, if they don't negotiate, then the rest is gravy but when I go into a project, my rate reflects room to negotiate. I don't fear giving out my rock bottom rate as a tool that they can use against me based on the fact that they are receiving pressure for my time from other clientele. Having the ability to walk away from the table is the most powerful tool in ones arsenal when it comes to sitting at the negotiation table.
I believe in fairness, and I believe in making my clients comfortable with the value I provide for their dollar. I love negotiating, because it allows me to show my clients the value they are getting for their money and it allows me to make them feel like they have walked away with a deal. Both are psychologically important factors to creating happy customers.
>Imagine if you were buying a hamburger and they told you that because they burned the first one you're going to have to pay double.
In my experience... The client orders a hamburger. You give them a hamburger. The client really wanted a hotdog and expects you to eat the cost of the hamburger.
Not a big deal in the real world, except in this example hamburgers cost tens of thousands of dollars.
In my experience... The client orders a hamburger. You give them a hamburger. The client really wanted a hotdog and expects you to eat the cost of the hamburger.
Not a big deal in the real world, except in this example hamburgers cost tens of thousands of dollars.
That or they force you to agree to a spec that absolutely will produce a burned hamburger, then refuse to accept it because its burned. Both you and the burger end up burned.
I'm fine with the former, you get what you pay for, the latter however, really makes me mad.
Seriously. Even though I know it's all mocked up, every time the video cut to the restaurant my pulse started to rise.
Seriously. Even though I know it's all mocked up, every time the video cut to the restaurant my pulse started to rise.
It's pretty stupid to let someone eat your product before you even check to see if they brought their wallet, isn't it.
Are you saying people usually ask you to produce your wallet at the beginning of a meal when you eat at a restaurant?
By ordering off the menu, you agree to the price on it. Similarly, when you sign an agreement to pay someone for work done, one would hope you'll pay that person when the work is done. Sadly, reality teaches us that this is not always the case.
By ordering off the menu, you agree to the price on it. Similarly, when you sign an agreement to pay someone for work done, one would hope you'll pay that person when the work is done. Sadly, reality teaches us that this is not always the case.
No, I'm just saying it's weird. People tried this (+) with houses and it didn't work very well. Why meals?
(+) this == "You saw the price and consumed the product, now it's time to pay." "But I don't have any money." "Oh fuck. I'm fucked, not you, even though you're the asshole."
(+) this == "You saw the price and consumed the product, now it's time to pay." "But I don't have any money." "Oh fuck. I'm fucked, not you, even though you're the asshole."
If you have to pay the money up front, you're less likely to buy; that's true for houses because they cost so much, and it's true for meals because there are lots of small individual charges in the course of a full meal. I guess restaurants find that the money lost via dine-and-dashing is not as bad as the money lost to misers.
Although you can get people to pre-buy at a discount (i,e, Groupon or, less directly, the various coupon books.)
There are substantial differences between the resturant and housing situations. Short of burning it down for fun there isn't really any way to consume a house. Also, the person who sold the house got paid for it, its the person who loaned the money to the buyer who is fucked. It would be more like if you took out a loan from a bank, used it to go out to eat, then couldn't pay back the bank. Maybe you are an asshole for not being able to pay, but the bank is incompetent for thinking you would be able to.
Anyway, as far as I can tell resturants are all about experience, and maybe forcing the customer to prove they can pay would degrade the experience to the point where the resturant makes more money by just accepting the occasional dine & dash.
Also in a real resturant if a customer was sitting there baldly refusing to pay, you could probably just call the police (I dont know, I've worked in resturants and have never even heard of this happening).
Anyway, as far as I can tell resturants are all about experience, and maybe forcing the customer to prove they can pay would degrade the experience to the point where the resturant makes more money by just accepting the occasional dine & dash.
Also in a real resturant if a customer was sitting there baldly refusing to pay, you could probably just call the police (I dont know, I've worked in resturants and have never even heard of this happening).
That is an interesting insight. I wonder how restaurateurs project customer default rates when analyzing new opportunities? They must teach this in hospitality management schools...
Regarding the housing comparison, the nature of the credit, the goods exchanged and the fact that maturities are so much shorter in restaurants (1:8)[1], allows (requires) restaurants to engage in riskier business practices. Mortgage lending risks are obviously much more complicated, but you are correct to point out that risk is an inherent part of issuing credit.
[1] Assumes 3 hours credit issued to the average customer, with average inventory borrowed for 30 days.
Regarding the housing comparison, the nature of the credit, the goods exchanged and the fact that maturities are so much shorter in restaurants (1:8)[1], allows (requires) restaurants to engage in riskier business practices. Mortgage lending risks are obviously much more complicated, but you are correct to point out that risk is an inherent part of issuing credit.
[1] Assumes 3 hours credit issued to the average customer, with average inventory borrowed for 30 days.
Tangentially related: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/813...
It's not getting people to bring their wallets that's the problem, it's getting them to open them
The in between one is the woman at the hairdresser.
Get past the point where negotiations usually happen and the deal appears done and your counterpart is committed, then bargain. We're used to it happening as consumers. There we call it bait & switch.
Get past the point where negotiations usually happen and the deal appears done and your counterpart is committed, then bargain. We're used to it happening as consumers. There we call it bait & switch.
The difference is that a CD is a commodity. People are not. Certainly there is a marketplace at work, but even if you do view programmers or designers as commoditized, no one wants to be treated that way. It's ugly behavior. (Although in my experience that is usually ignorance, not malice.)
I'd be fine with being treated like a commodity as long as that commodity is a type of bullion.
I find that the term "commoditized" refers to goods or services that one, are all identical and b) are really, really cheap, like most commodities in the late 90s.
I find that the term "commoditized" refers to goods or services that one, are all identical and b) are really, really cheap, like most commodities in the late 90s.
CD?
Shiny things they used to put un-ripped MP3's on.
Un-ripped MP3's? I thought they were just how AOL mailed software.
for a while I tried to start a collection of those "free install!" discs from various ISPs. it got too depressing.
AOL? Is that some sort of mass-market related startup?
Not a startup, more a winding-down.
By the way, is AOL still doing that? I used to get a couple every year, but I haven't received one in several years now.
By the way, is AOL still doing that? I used to get a couple every year, but I haven't received one in several years now.
The joke is that AOL is so out of the game and so irrelevant to the modern internet that people might not have even heard of them at this point, mistaking them for some sort of startup that focused on mass-mailings. Though, as far as I can tell, they don't do that anymore.
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If the latter is happening to you, you're doing it wrong.
25% retainer, equal installments of 25% at respective milestones. End of story.
25% retainer, equal installments of 25% at respective milestones. End of story.
It's war, I tell ya!
The video should play the first 10 minutes and then display a dialog box prompting for a credit card in order to update to "Premium" (which would just make the dialog box go away).
The hairdresser should color her hair purple, but once she paid the bill, it would magically turn blond at 3 a.m. via Microcolor Automatic Update.
The chef should electronically disable the steak-embedded Exlax dispenser once the bill was paid in full.
oops, just in case... </sarcasm>
The video should play the first 10 minutes and then display a dialog box prompting for a credit card in order to update to "Premium" (which would just make the dialog box go away).
The hairdresser should color her hair purple, but once she paid the bill, it would magically turn blond at 3 a.m. via Microcolor Automatic Update.
The chef should electronically disable the steak-embedded Exlax dispenser once the bill was paid in full.
oops, just in case... </sarcasm>
Funny. Now I want to see a comeback video from the clients' perspective.
Cutting edge meat, still some bugs being ironed out but totally worth it if you avoid that whole beef mess. A weird disc with wires attaching it to a projector that that you can put in the dvd player and it plays the projector reels, sort of. When the hair's half cut, a grey hair is discovered. Now it's on track to be finished by Christmas.
Cutting edge meat, still some bugs being ironed out but totally worth it if you avoid that whole beef mess. A weird disc with wires attaching it to a projector that that you can put in the dvd player and it plays the projector reels, sort of. When the hair's half cut, a grey hair is discovered. Now it's on track to be finished by Christmas.
The gray hair scene would be funny :)
The video shows perfectly why unwritten/verbal/implied contracts are to be avoided at all cost.
Against my better judgement I recently completed some work without a written contract. It was exactly like the restaurant scene: they'd received the services and used them but started questioning the bill (after it became overdue).
I still find it strange that people view other people as a commodity like oil or pork bellies yet they expect ridiculous returns, akin to a barrel of oil spontaneously duplicating and selling itself for $300
Against my better judgement I recently completed some work without a written contract. It was exactly like the restaurant scene: they'd received the services and used them but started questioning the bill (after it became overdue).
I still find it strange that people view other people as a commodity like oil or pork bellies yet they expect ridiculous returns, akin to a barrel of oil spontaneously duplicating and selling itself for $300
I used to work for an architectural and landscape designer and builder. After getting a judgement against him when a client took him to court, he quit using written contracts and instead went to week-by-week meetings with clients and billing on the same basis, so neither ran away with misunderstandings or too great sunk costs. It worked pretty well for the next 25 years, until he retired.
This sort of negotiation is common for things like design, photography, video, music, illustration and other creative assets. Based on the production values I'm assuming the video comes from that world, rather than the programming world.
My designer buddy says "oh yeah, that's a really old designer thing."
You appear to be correct.
You appear to be correct.
You're right, if it were about programming there would have to be a parody for file recovery and windows installs.
Am I a rare contractor because I haven't had problems with people paying up? Is that common in the software contracting world? Or is it the case (as it is with most things in this world) that the people with problems also have the loudest voice, or tend to make the most noise, so it seems to be an issue more than it is?
You may be rare, or haven't done much yet. I've been in software dev in some capacity for about 17 years, and have been stiffed myself a couple of times, and I've had companies I've worked for been stiffed too. In some cases it was for a lot of money, in some cases very little. If it hasn't happened yet, it probably will at some point. It's not guaranteed, but I don't think I know anyone that's been at this for more than 5 years that hasn't had client payment issues at some stage.
True, I've only been doing contract for 2 years, and it's only been hourly. Nobody's been late on the first (or any) monthly payment, so I've never had to worry about it. I'm assuming the problem is more with project-based pay? Which I'm afraid to take on (for these very reasons...)
No. Hourly can still be problematic - you're just generally out less than you might be on a milestone-based project.
I recently had a problem with someone not paying. I finally said "I'm done." I took the software somewhere else (after consulting a lawyer) and sold it to another business doing the same thing. I had gotten half up front from the first guy, and sold it for full price to the next guy.
Granted, my particular circumstance was a little bit loose on the details of the contract, but it was within my rights to do so, and I got paid in full (plus the extra half up front) for the work I did.
Granted, my particular circumstance was a little bit loose on the details of the contract, but it was within my rights to do so, and I got paid in full (plus the extra half up front) for the work I did.
You can order a filet for a fairly predictable price, it will take a fairly predictable amount of time, and it will fairly predictably make you happy.
Software, by and large, does not make people happy or do what they want nearly as reliably as steak does, and so if I were them I would be much more finicky about paying people to make it for me than I am about paying people to make me steak.
And especially, software made to order has even lower mean and even higher variance than most of the software that people use. And you don't know what you're getting until you get it, at which point the incompetent software vendor is demanding some ridiculously exorbitant sum for something it turned out you didn't want anyway.
You personally may not suck at programming, but the majority of programmers do, and so people are very justifiably unwilling to cough up the dough programmers demand.
Software, by and large, does not make people happy or do what they want nearly as reliably as steak does, and so if I were them I would be much more finicky about paying people to make it for me than I am about paying people to make me steak.
And especially, software made to order has even lower mean and even higher variance than most of the software that people use. And you don't know what you're getting until you get it, at which point the incompetent software vendor is demanding some ridiculously exorbitant sum for something it turned out you didn't want anyway.
You personally may not suck at programming, but the majority of programmers do, and so people are very justifiably unwilling to cough up the dough programmers demand.
I'm not really sure whether arguing the "the work you receive might suck" case is helpful for the discussion. (I'm also pretty sure that it won't get you much love here for that train of though ;-) )
If that's where you start, sure, you can arrive at a lot of conclusions and be none the wiser. I have been to restaurants where the steak was far less reliable than you suppose.
Actually, that's not true - I avoid restaurants like that by figuring out that the one I do go to respects me as a client as I do respect it as the place that makes my tummy full. And there we arrive at the point of the video: The vendors are the ones who bring respect and quality to the table, the problem is that the clients do in no way mirror that respect.
If a client is willing to "just get somebody to do something for as little cash as possible", that's what they will get. Fortunately, people who care about the things they want to have done check first, treat their business partners well and live in a happy place where real things are negotiated for real prices that are then paid like adults.
If that's where you start, sure, you can arrive at a lot of conclusions and be none the wiser. I have been to restaurants where the steak was far less reliable than you suppose.
Actually, that's not true - I avoid restaurants like that by figuring out that the one I do go to respects me as a client as I do respect it as the place that makes my tummy full. And there we arrive at the point of the video: The vendors are the ones who bring respect and quality to the table, the problem is that the clients do in no way mirror that respect.
If a client is willing to "just get somebody to do something for as little cash as possible", that's what they will get. Fortunately, people who care about the things they want to have done check first, treat their business partners well and live in a happy place where real things are negotiated for real prices that are then paid like adults.
The obvious counterpoint to that is that there is no give and take in the preparation of a filet.
The success of a development project, or software implementation depends just as much on involvement from the customer as it does for the developer or provider.
In the enterprise, this means setting up a project consisting of stakeholders from which you can gather information, get integration assistance, etc. In the single-project bespoke software or web development arena, it's even more important that the customer is able to provide good feedback, offer and direct according to their vision, etc.
Back to the steak analogy, what would be the remediation for the customer yelling "More salt! More salt!" and then refusing to pay when the final product is too salty?
The success of a development project, or software implementation depends just as much on involvement from the customer as it does for the developer or provider.
In the enterprise, this means setting up a project consisting of stakeholders from which you can gather information, get integration assistance, etc. In the single-project bespoke software or web development arena, it's even more important that the customer is able to provide good feedback, offer and direct according to their vision, etc.
Back to the steak analogy, what would be the remediation for the customer yelling "More salt! More salt!" and then refusing to pay when the final product is too salty?
The remediation would be to leave the restaurant that lets customers demand more salt, and get a job at a restaurant where salt is applied correctly and customers can take it or leave it.
In other words, if you're good at programming, why are you in the custom software business instead of something more scalable?
In other words, if you're good at programming, why are you in the custom software business instead of something more scalable?
Yes, but as both a contractor and someone who hires contractors, I would say the optimal approach for both developer and client would be to get a small task done first then move from there. So, order the appetizer first, and if it's good, then go for the main course. (Or even better, go out for salad, and then come back next week for the main course if you didn't get food poisoning.)
Link to original site
http://www.vendorclientvideo.com/
http://www.vendorclientvideo.com/
The difference, as I see it, is just that these people in the video really fight for their right. The cook will let his fists talk, if they don't pay. That dvd guy will never buy this dvd and so on. In the IT world there is the problem that there are actually really many people that let themself beeing enslaved and accept those situations. If 60% of the dvd shops would react positively to bargaining, every client would try it. That is "just" the situation w face in our business.
If you didn't see it, I can connect you to some companies. Work for them for some months and you see that 90% of the coders there (contractors or employers) effectively put themself in slavery.
Although not all software developers are like this, we all have to suffer from the consequences of these acts of low selfevaluation.
If you didn't see it, I can connect you to some companies. Work for them for some months and you see that 90% of the coders there (contractors or employers) effectively put themself in slavery.
Although not all software developers are like this, we all have to suffer from the consequences of these acts of low selfevaluation.
classic: "we'll do this this time but you need to show us how you did it so we can do it in house"
The guys that made this seem to do a lot of "high-end" marketing, so I guess it doesn't get much better with big clients (http://www.scofieldedit.com/).
Really neat video though!
Really neat video though!
Companies who treat their vendors like this have a company culture that treats them the same way. Its therefore OK to kick around other people, even easier since they are behind a company's 'mask'.
Ha, this reminds me of the Microsoft vs. GM comparison from yesteryears. Cars would crash unexpectedly, etc.
I am up-voting just because I have lived each and every one of these at least once.
this would be a great way to spend fu money. pretend to be a small time contractor and then absolutely destroy companies run by sleazy conniving wheeler-dealers who try to short you.
[video] better than i thought it would be
Historically, the consumer experience is actually the exception, not b2b. Up until fairly recently it was standard practice to haggle for everything you buy. It's only the rise of the middle class and of huge companies that sell goods/services to millions that brought about this new idea of fixed prices that aren't open to negotiation.