Pandora: From near-death to profitability in a year(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Pandora: From near-death to profitability in a year
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/25/pandora-from-near-death-to-profitability-in-a-year/
56 comments
I like Pandora a lot but a couple of months ago I switched to last.fm because it gave me more variety. Maybe it's time to check out Pandora again -- though last.fm is still 100% free.
I just switched to last.fm from Pandora. The last straw was the same video ad for 'Mercy hospital' every single time I changed stations.
I have to admit that listening to last.fm is a completely different experience. There are a much deeper selection of tracks and I was thrilled to hear a 24 minute DJ Shadow song.
I wish pandora the best, and I was ok with the occasional video ad. But every time I change a station? If it was every 3rd time I might have put up with it.
I have to admit that listening to last.fm is a completely different experience. There are a much deeper selection of tracks and I was thrilled to hear a 24 minute DJ Shadow song.
I wish pandora the best, and I was ok with the occasional video ad. But every time I change a station? If it was every 3rd time I might have put up with it.
Coding at my new job I tried out Pandora and after a few days I kept hearing the same music. My test is eclectic and I like hearing folk to jazz to alternative to 80s to etc ... Pandora does not seem to offer this type of station, but Last.fm does as if you trained it via a plug in it knows exactly what genres you like and the artists in those genres.
Also, I use Fire.fm firefox last.fm toolbar which is great as it puts play controls right into firefox and last.fm does not need to be open!
Also, I use Fire.fm firefox last.fm toolbar which is great as it puts play controls right into firefox and last.fm does not need to be open!
I'm not exactly sure about those particular mixes, but I know I end to get good results mixing genres in Pandora by using the "Add Variety" feature. I also find that keeping the window open and just pausing it stops the repetition, they tend to only repeat songs you really, really seem to like, or they will only once per page load (per station).
Cool thanks. I might give it a try. Though prefer last.fm's toolbar (fire.fm) as no site needs to be open, there are play controls at the bottom of firefox, as well it tells you what's playing. As I code/test within one Firefox window I prefer not to have to switch tabs to control music, learn who is playing, as well heart or ban the track playing. Though maybe Pandora has similar toolbar?
They have a desktop client, but you (apparently) have to be a member for that. I'm not sure about the features, but I would think it would allow for that.
It does, and it works on any platform Adobe Air works on. It's 30-something bucks for a whole year, and totally worth it for not having your music tied to the browser being open.
How often are you changing stations? I tend to only change stations every couple of hours, if that often. It seems like frequent station changing defeats the purpose of music discovery, because of how Pandora seems to react when changing stations. If I change a station, listen to an entire song, and then change back, it (seems) to reset the "play things I know skolor likes before branching out into new things". I don't have any data at all on it, but after I have a sufficiently mature station (50+ "liked" songs, or so) it seems to mostly play through 10-20 songs before introducing any new songs I've never heard before.
My main complaint with Last.FM is that it makes me putting a label on what I like in music, and then match that up with how other people label music. I know next to nothing about music, I just know I like certain songs and dislike others (Ok, I know a little more than that, but not much). When I used Last.FM I would pick a genre/tag I liked/artist, listen for a while, and get bored with it because it either sounded exactly the same or else I picked the wrong tag and it turns out that wasn't the factor in the original music I liked.
My main complaint with Last.FM is that it makes me putting a label on what I like in music, and then match that up with how other people label music. I know next to nothing about music, I just know I like certain songs and dislike others (Ok, I know a little more than that, but not much). When I used Last.FM I would pick a genre/tag I liked/artist, listen for a while, and get bored with it because it either sounded exactly the same or else I picked the wrong tag and it turns out that wasn't the factor in the original music I liked.
"last.fm is still 100% free."
Except in other countries than the United States, United Kingdom and Germany.
http://blog.last.fm/2009/03/24/lastfm-radio-announcement
Except in other countries than the United States, United Kingdom and Germany.
http://blog.last.fm/2009/03/24/lastfm-radio-announcement
don't forget available outside the US
That's basically what happened with me, except that I didn't wait to hit the 40 hours.
I'm a huge Pandora fan as well. For some reason one day I decided to quickly profess my love for them via email and actually got a response asking if I wanted a shirt or hat. This blew my mind, and I rock my Pandora baseball tee often as a result.
What's your shirt size? We'll send you a t-shirt (or a few!) if you're willing to try our service. And actually, I'll extend this offer to any HN reader/user.
Chris from Grooveshark.
Chris from Grooveshark.
Grooveshark looks nice! Pandora's been recycling the same songs too much for my tastes lately, and I'm getting bored with it. I also wish I could easily access the "station logs" later.
I like the fair use policy on the copyrights page a lot.
Are you really going to be able to let users drive to the exact song they want to hear, even after critical mass builds up? Seems too good to be true. I always assumed that was how Pandora managed to keep the heat off (by not letting users pick the exact song when they want to hear it).
I like the fair use policy on the copyrights page a lot.
Are you really going to be able to let users drive to the exact song they want to hear, even after critical mass builds up? Seems too good to be true. I always assumed that was how Pandora managed to keep the heat off (by not letting users pick the exact song when they want to hear it).
Thanks! Our new version is even nicer :) You can go to preview.grooveshark.com to check it out.
To answer your question, yes, we will always have a search-and-discover interface because that is where our real value comes from.
As far as critical mass is concerned, we are doubling about every 2-3 months with absolutely no marketing or PR (which is why you don't hear about us on TechCrunch very often). We've got a lot of work ahead of us in terms of scaling to meet demand, but so far we're handling it well.
To answer your question, yes, we will always have a search-and-discover interface because that is where our real value comes from.
As far as critical mass is concerned, we are doubling about every 2-3 months with absolutely no marketing or PR (which is why you don't hear about us on TechCrunch very often). We've got a lot of work ahead of us in terms of scaling to meet demand, but so far we're handling it well.
Hey Chris, I'm a huge fan of Grooveshark, and it's cool to see you guys on HN.
I do have one suggestion for you though: autoplay is a great feature, but it took me a long time to realize the button was even there. If there's a way to make it more prominent I think that would help.
I do have one suggestion for you though: autoplay is a great feature, but it took me a long time to realize the button was even there. If there's a way to make it more prominent I think that would help.
Hey, we're all huge fans of HN. Great community.
Thanks for your suggestion about Autoplay. This will be fixed in our upcoming product launch. If you want a sneak peak, check out preview.grooveshark.com.
Thanks for your suggestion about Autoplay. This will be fixed in our upcoming product launch. If you want a sneak peak, check out preview.grooveshark.com.
dibs. I'm a large.
Huge fan of your service, great way to get a hold of obscure music fast. Haven't built out my playlists yet though
Finally tracked down a song I've been looking for since I stopped using my old creative zen player: http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/Sasha_s_Voyage_Of_Ima/1...
Huge fan of your service, great way to get a hold of obscure music fast. Haven't built out my playlists yet though
Finally tracked down a song I've been looking for since I stopped using my old creative zen player: http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/song/Sasha_s_Voyage_Of_Ima/1...
We do have quite a bit of obscure music. For sharing songs, you might want to check out our URL shortener, TinySong.com (we have other sharing features on the songs themselves in the Info pane). You can also utilize our API if you'd like to do cool stuff with our library.
Grooveshark's awesome! Hopefully I can come visit you guys the next time I'm back in Gainesville.
Thanks! Visit anytime. We're right next to the Hippodrome on the 2nd floor above Dragonfly. If you walk out on the ledge until you hear Skyler pounding on his 1980's style IBM keyboard, you've found Grooveshark.
Checked it out after reading this post, and I'm damn impressed. It seems to have everything I can think of, and the quality's sweet. One question, though: I'm located in Canadian, and lots of streaming services including Pandora and others I was interested in using either didn't offer service outside of the states or stopped offering it once they hit a certain size. Is that going to be the case with your service as well? If not, I'm probably hooked.
Thanks.
PS: If you'd be willing to toss a shirt up north of the border, I'm a medium.
Thanks.
PS: If you'd be willing to toss a shirt up north of the border, I'm a medium.
We fully intend on offering a worldwide service. There are many factors involved of course with providing that type of coverage (some technical, some legal). But know that we are keeping our international users in mind as we negotiate contracts and develop our products.
I'll be happy to toss up a shirt up North (my e-mail is in my profile). We get them made by American Apparel and they are quite comfy. I've been wearing mine all week and I think my co-workers are starting to demand a change.
I'll be happy to toss up a shirt up North (my e-mail is in my profile). We get them made by American Apparel and they are quite comfy. I've been wearing mine all week and I think my co-workers are starting to demand a change.
I had a similar experience. I was working thanksgiving evening and sent them an e-mail complimenting their unique advertisements (weird, I know - I'm graphic artist though, so I really appreciate the creativity that goes into most of their ads). I got an e-mail back a few minutes later, from the cfo. I was blown away, and actually felt kinda bad for e-mailing on a holiday!
I never expected a response at all, let alone that night.
I never expected a response at all, let alone that night.
I got a hat. I treasure that hat like it were my first born.
Its amazing how much more highly I think of them for basically just throwing out hats.
Its amazing how much more highly I think of them for basically just throwing out hats.
You have stumbled onto my all-encompassing Theory of Service: people love getting comped. No matter how cheap or silly, if it came for free people will remember you fondly for it and give you their business in the future. And they will probably blog and post on HN about it too :)
If I ever open a restaurant I am going to randomly dispense free appetizers and desserts. If I ever run a (freemium) startup, I am going to randomly give away free accounts. Not to everyone, not so much that it hurts the bottom line, but enough that the buzz and goodwill generated outweighs whatever loss I'm taking.
If I ever open a restaurant I am going to randomly dispense free appetizers and desserts. If I ever run a (freemium) startup, I am going to randomly give away free accounts. Not to everyone, not so much that it hurts the bottom line, but enough that the buzz and goodwill generated outweighs whatever loss I'm taking.
There is definitely a limit there. No matter how cheap or silly, as long as it doesn't seem cheap, if it came for free people will remember. The times I have been given something free that is particularly cheaply made, usually something made out of very low quality plastic, I always think "Oh, these guys evidently don't care about their users/fans/supporters, if they're going to give me something that won't last 10 minutes".
I think its important to give away things that are not your core business. I like the pandora hat and I remember it fondly, but if my coworker got a super-awesome pandora account, I think I would just feel "dang, why didn't I get one".
I never used Pandora that much—I prefer consciously sitting down and listening to a particular album—but when I threw an early morning party, I set Pandora to play light jazz and the music gave everything a great feel. It's awesome that nowadays tools exist to let us manage music that way.
Perhaps I am weird but every time pandora recommends me a song and I really like it, I bookmark it. I do this so that if I end up deciding I want to buy it, I can click through to amazon from them and get them some referal money :).
It really says something about how good you are doing if people will go out of their way to make sure you get paid.
It really says something about how good you are doing if people will go out of their way to make sure you get paid.
I started out with Pandora, but then they added that 40 hour limit, seeing as how I have the radio on 24/7, I hit that the 3rd day. So I started looking for alternatives and quickly found grooveshark, they completely blow Pandora out of the water with their selection and you can actually pick the actual song you want to play right away.
Their autoplay feature is a little bit less refined than Pandoras, but I actually like that, since with Pandora I ended up listening to the same 30-40 songs over and over again, since it kept reccomending the same songs.
Their autoplay feature is a little bit less refined than Pandoras, but I actually like that, since with Pandora I ended up listening to the same 30-40 songs over and over again, since it kept reccomending the same songs.
Thanks! I'll pass the good feedback on to the rest of our team. We're working hard to bring you more features. I'm actually working on the autoplay algorithm right now so any feedback is quite helpful. Drop me a line anytime.
Chris from Grooveshark
Chris from Grooveshark
For autoplay, I think the algorithm needs to give the initial song genre a little bit more weight, especially long term.
Short term it works fine, but long term(couple of days) it'll go off on a tangent. For example, I'd start out with a fast paced upbeat song, and eventually it'll go to playing non-stop slow country music.
For new discovery, I think you should let the user be able to select a new song style mid-way through. Something like "Play more like it" button, that would reset the algorhytm around the current song you are listening to.
Short term it works fine, but long term(couple of days) it'll go off on a tangent. For example, I'd start out with a fast paced upbeat song, and eventually it'll go to playing non-stop slow country music.
For new discovery, I think you should let the user be able to select a new song style mid-way through. Something like "Play more like it" button, that would reset the algorhytm around the current song you are listening to.
That's a great suggestion! Autoplay right now just takes into account your current playing song. We're hoping to build an algorithm that learns as your music moods change and adapts real time. If that doesn't give good results we might opt to give users more choice in how they want their recs to be delivered.
Oh yeah, you def need to implement that. Thing is, that most people will search for a song that fits the type they want. So letting the genre wander, just delivers them wrong results.
i.e. you start out with Hip Hop, then eventually you'll hit a song that is Hip Hop/Country, then you'll hit a song that's Country/Country, and then you are stuck listening for 3 hours to country music. Until you hit Country/Hip-Hop and get out of the loop.
You could probably expand the options a little bit by making a few mutually exclusive lists. For example someone whose initial search was a country music song, probably doesn't want to ever hear gangsta rap. And vice versa.
As far as trying to figure out the mood, I don't think that's plausible. The whole like/dislike/forward thing isn't going to get you the results you want. For example, I might "like" a song, but it doesn't mean I want to start hearing more songs like that at the moment. The dislike/forward is mostly used to skip past the songs that don't fit my initial criteria.
I think it's something that you are better off leaving for your users to do manually. If they want to start hearing new types of music, they'll just search for a new song. There is no real reason to try to guesstimate their mood, since chances are you'll just get it wrong and will ruin the user experience.
Oh and here is another suggestion for auto-play, let users use it without searching for the initial song. Use it as a "Play me a random song" button. This way users can discover new music.
i.e. you start out with Hip Hop, then eventually you'll hit a song that is Hip Hop/Country, then you'll hit a song that's Country/Country, and then you are stuck listening for 3 hours to country music. Until you hit Country/Hip-Hop and get out of the loop.
You could probably expand the options a little bit by making a few mutually exclusive lists. For example someone whose initial search was a country music song, probably doesn't want to ever hear gangsta rap. And vice versa.
As far as trying to figure out the mood, I don't think that's plausible. The whole like/dislike/forward thing isn't going to get you the results you want. For example, I might "like" a song, but it doesn't mean I want to start hearing more songs like that at the moment. The dislike/forward is mostly used to skip past the songs that don't fit my initial criteria.
I think it's something that you are better off leaving for your users to do manually. If they want to start hearing new types of music, they'll just search for a new song. There is no real reason to try to guesstimate their mood, since chances are you'll just get it wrong and will ruin the user experience.
Oh and here is another suggestion for auto-play, let users use it without searching for the initial song. Use it as a "Play me a random song" button. This way users can discover new music.
Duly noted. Thanks again. The comment about adapting to your mood is in reference to how much weight we should give to your prior play history versus your current playing song. It sounds like you like the emphasis on the current song but want it to stay in the same genre until changed.
I use Grooveshark and I agree that the autoplay is very naive compared to Pandora. A better autoplay algorithm will definitely help but it is hard give you feedback unless we know what you are trying to do with the new algorithm. Currently, correct me if am wrong, your algorithm for recommendation is heavily biased toward genre. It is really hard to discover new songs that I like with it and that's when I fall back to Pandora.
The original algorithm uses a mix of strategies to select songs. Its more or less hand picked. One thing that makes Grooveshark special is that it is all user-submitted content which is terrific from a selection and discovery point of view but an unwieldly problem from a data point of view. Note that our library stands somewhere around 6 million songs compared to Pandora's 600,000 so generating recs has to be done at great scale. The way in which users interact with our site is fundamentally different as well because you can add any mix of songs to your queue at any period in time.
I like how you and vaksel gave diametrically opposed suggestions...poor Chris.
Haha you'd be surprised by how many people love the current autoplay despite it's drawbacks. I have a feeling we're not hearing from the people who don't like it because they end up going to Pandora for better recs. I think it's a problem we can solve though. By our next product launch we'll have the logic in place to make both user groups happy.
The problem with Groveshark is that I can't seem to find one legal piece of music on it. Other than that it is definitely better (that is easy though, Pandora doesn't work at all.
Keep up the good work.
Keep up the good work.
"The problem with Grooveshark is that I can't seem to find one legal piece of music on it."
You're very casually making a serious accusation. Can you offer any evidence that Grooveshark is doing something illegal?
You're very casually making a serious accusation. Can you offer any evidence that Grooveshark is doing something illegal?
I wasn't trying to say that Groveshark did anything illegal, just most of the songs there (and all those I had seen) didn't seem to be licensed (mostly because they where available in multiple copies). I assume that the uploads was done by users, not Groveshark.
We are a completely legal business. We follow federal dmca rules and if you want something taken down you can notify us and we'll remove it within 48 hours. We are also in the process of negotiating with all major labels. We like to think that we help new artists get discovered though. We have a very good analytics solution that tracks the number of plays new artists get and present the results in our Grooveshark Artists section. New artists can also pay for Autoplay campaigns and we'll circulate their songs into users Autoplay sessions.
I have simply not seen one of those new artists, but that is definitely a good idea.
If you get an agreement with the major labels, I will become a paid subscriber. It would be one of the greatest things that have happened to music in this millennium.
If you get an agreement with the major labels, I will become a paid subscriber. It would be one of the greatest things that have happened to music in this millennium.
Part of it is just not having a good way of offering those recommendations when you're in the midst of an Autoplay session, which is going to change in the next launch cycle as we implement our new algorithm.
As for the major labels, keep your eyes peeled. We're working hard on that end. We know it will be a critical component.
As for the major labels, keep your eyes peeled. We're working hard on that end. We know it will be a critical component.
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Glad to see these guys doing well, I've been a rabid fan since a friend turned me onto the service four(ish) years ago.
Although I don't entirely understand the last line of the article "Pandora will be a textbook case for why execution matters more than vision in tech"
I get that they've worked their asses off to make it a reality, I think the vision of smart music recommendation and discovery is what drove the execution. ??
Although I don't entirely understand the last line of the article "Pandora will be a textbook case for why execution matters more than vision in tech"
I get that they've worked their asses off to make it a reality, I think the vision of smart music recommendation and discovery is what drove the execution. ??
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just putting out there that pandora totally crushes deezer and last.fm when it comes to music selection for artists or songs you enter in.
In case anyone working with/at Pandora is reading this: you guys are awesome. I've gotten more new music from you than anywhere else. I noticed you seem to have changed your algorithm lately (At least, in the past few weeks I've suddenly gotten a LOT of new music) and I like it a lot.