You're Young. I'm 18. So what?(theindustry.cc)
theindustry.cc
You're Young. I'm 18. So what?
http://theindustry.cc/2012/09/14/youre-young-im-18-so-what/
112 comments
i'm 20, work at a tech startup in NYC. fuck everything about this kid. real phony, rubs me the wrong way 100%
I kinda agree. I am 23, but even though age is a proxy for experience one shouldn't overvalue experience in first place. In face experience can be a huge hindrance. Experience can (but doesn't necessarily) lead to be less open, to be less creative and also can cause you to lose the ability to see things open and from different perspectives.
People (I) start to rely on their experience and while this can allow you to do things more effectively, because you have them in your working memory, etc.
However, when I look back to the things I used to do when I was eleven, I felt like there were no border. I was able to understand concepts instantly, just read things and I knew it.
Sometimes I think a wunderkind is just someone whose hobbies are related to school wisdom. When I look back to every teacher was constantly calling me professor just because I read the stuff in the math books, read other books, liked to watch the educational program (which I our class watched again in high school) one can just think so.
On the flip side I didn't learn a lot of the things with other hobbies did. Sometimes a wunderkind is someone with lots of hobbies and having basics skills everywhere seems like a good countermeasure to relying on experience you made in a certain field.
Well, my life wasn't that good though. I was that kind of geek that got beaten up by others for good marks and so stopped going to school for a long time (but decided to still get my finals at a later, just learning on my own doing the necessary tests). Still, when I look back to that time when everyone called me professor things changed. I think I made a lot of different experiences because of it though. These days I don't give the impression of a creepy geek anymore, because my social skills were forced to develop quite nicely.
Basically why I want to write this is because I know there are a lot of people who are outsiders and stay like that all their life. I know how it is when they say you have a high IQ and you try to be super nice, because you may find it nice to be a geek around some people, but feel strange around others. But hey being a geek means being smart, so one can just spend a nice time doing something social, looking what others do, how they react and also self reflect on your self. Even if non-geeks might behave differently, they are also just people like you. I think most geeks tend do focus on themselves and when they are shy they try their best to look good and then (correctly) come to the conclusion one shouldn't try to be different and just accept oneself. However what they sometimes forget is that one usually can learn most by just listening. Completely focus on someone else. One doesn't need to fear looking like a creep, if you just listen and people are even going to like you for it!
About the rest of this article: I don't know, but it looks like something that is going to bore one in the long run. Yeah startups are exciting and I am working for one too. It's great fun to actually do thing, but first off I don't really need a job to do something great and really wouldn't consider creating a successful company the greatest thing ever. It was done over and over and all you get is money, which seems like something rather boring if you are not a poor person or just addicted to it, which also won't make you happy.
So question: Do you really consider creating something like tumblr a great goal? I mean, if you take away all the hype then it's just a blog and the ability to like other blog posts. I wouldn't really call that something great, amazing and influential (not in the way I think most people want to be influential I guess). It's no revolutionary great thing and isn't more likely to save lives than to destroy them.
Of course I'd be happy and proud of myself, if I created tumblr, twitter or Facebook and see how it is successful, but at least I wouldn't feel like I had done something great with my life. If you do that's great, go for it!
Speaking about tumblr, I'd feel like a lot these "average" (that sounds really bad, sorry) people did more with writing a simple blog post and while I would find it super awesome that they did it with my software it just feels wrong to act like I'd really have contributed a lot by creating tumblr. There were easy to use blogs before that and hey, who says things actually didn't make it harder or something even better could have happened.
So before you go on, I urge you to think about what exactly makes you great about what you plan, else you risk to feel like you have wasted your time. When you are in your early twenties, you'll know what I mean. ;)
People (I) start to rely on their experience and while this can allow you to do things more effectively, because you have them in your working memory, etc.
However, when I look back to the things I used to do when I was eleven, I felt like there were no border. I was able to understand concepts instantly, just read things and I knew it.
Sometimes I think a wunderkind is just someone whose hobbies are related to school wisdom. When I look back to every teacher was constantly calling me professor just because I read the stuff in the math books, read other books, liked to watch the educational program (which I our class watched again in high school) one can just think so.
On the flip side I didn't learn a lot of the things with other hobbies did. Sometimes a wunderkind is someone with lots of hobbies and having basics skills everywhere seems like a good countermeasure to relying on experience you made in a certain field.
Well, my life wasn't that good though. I was that kind of geek that got beaten up by others for good marks and so stopped going to school for a long time (but decided to still get my finals at a later, just learning on my own doing the necessary tests). Still, when I look back to that time when everyone called me professor things changed. I think I made a lot of different experiences because of it though. These days I don't give the impression of a creepy geek anymore, because my social skills were forced to develop quite nicely.
Basically why I want to write this is because I know there are a lot of people who are outsiders and stay like that all their life. I know how it is when they say you have a high IQ and you try to be super nice, because you may find it nice to be a geek around some people, but feel strange around others. But hey being a geek means being smart, so one can just spend a nice time doing something social, looking what others do, how they react and also self reflect on your self. Even if non-geeks might behave differently, they are also just people like you. I think most geeks tend do focus on themselves and when they are shy they try their best to look good and then (correctly) come to the conclusion one shouldn't try to be different and just accept oneself. However what they sometimes forget is that one usually can learn most by just listening. Completely focus on someone else. One doesn't need to fear looking like a creep, if you just listen and people are even going to like you for it!
About the rest of this article: I don't know, but it looks like something that is going to bore one in the long run. Yeah startups are exciting and I am working for one too. It's great fun to actually do thing, but first off I don't really need a job to do something great and really wouldn't consider creating a successful company the greatest thing ever. It was done over and over and all you get is money, which seems like something rather boring if you are not a poor person or just addicted to it, which also won't make you happy.
So question: Do you really consider creating something like tumblr a great goal? I mean, if you take away all the hype then it's just a blog and the ability to like other blog posts. I wouldn't really call that something great, amazing and influential (not in the way I think most people want to be influential I guess). It's no revolutionary great thing and isn't more likely to save lives than to destroy them.
Of course I'd be happy and proud of myself, if I created tumblr, twitter or Facebook and see how it is successful, but at least I wouldn't feel like I had done something great with my life. If you do that's great, go for it!
Speaking about tumblr, I'd feel like a lot these "average" (that sounds really bad, sorry) people did more with writing a simple blog post and while I would find it super awesome that they did it with my software it just feels wrong to act like I'd really have contributed a lot by creating tumblr. There were easy to use blogs before that and hey, who says things actually didn't make it harder or something even better could have happened.
So before you go on, I urge you to think about what exactly makes you great about what you plan, else you risk to feel like you have wasted your time. When you are in your early twenties, you'll know what I mean. ;)
Pretty cool both that you are accomplishing so much at your age, and also pretty cool that the industry is embracing that (try doing that in the biotech or financial services industry). Good luck!
Fellow Baltimorean! It's not so boring... so long as you're over 21.
That's one hell of a story of hustle. What you've discovered, I think, is (paraphrasing Steve Jobs [1]) that the world around you was built by people just like you. You've seen behind the curtain, and there's no wizard, only some dude who's no smarter than you are figuring it out as he goes along. Kudos to you for discovering this at such a young age, I didn't get it 'till my twenties.
My advice to you: put the last section of your article out of your mind. You've achieved some pretty amazing things, focus on that, and keep shipping. Comparing yourself to others is a path to insanity, there will always be someone who has accomplished more, done it faster, made it look easier, etc. And one more thing-- you're never too young to do anything, but keep in mind that with age comes experience. There are people out there (like the ones you mentioned), who have been where you are before, have faced similar challenges, and overcome them. No matter how early you start, you'll always have more experience the older you get, so continue to seek out the advice and mentorship of those who have walked the path before you.
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U...
My advice to you: put the last section of your article out of your mind. You've achieved some pretty amazing things, focus on that, and keep shipping. Comparing yourself to others is a path to insanity, there will always be someone who has accomplished more, done it faster, made it look easier, etc. And one more thing-- you're never too young to do anything, but keep in mind that with age comes experience. There are people out there (like the ones you mentioned), who have been where you are before, have faced similar challenges, and overcome them. No matter how early you start, you'll always have more experience the older you get, so continue to seek out the advice and mentorship of those who have walked the path before you.
[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U...
>"Age is just a number."
Age is a proxy for wisdom. The longer you are on this earth, the more wisdom and experience you will acquire. That has value. But that's not to say that age alone should be a dealbreaker or barrier to success, as the author has proven.
I'm 32; I look back at me at 18, 19, 20, even 25 and laugh at how little I knew. I have learned so much since then, and continue to do so. The main problem with being young is that you don't realize what you've yet to realize.
Age is a proxy for wisdom. The longer you are on this earth, the more wisdom and experience you will acquire. That has value. But that's not to say that age alone should be a dealbreaker or barrier to success, as the author has proven.
I'm 32; I look back at me at 18, 19, 20, even 25 and laugh at how little I knew. I have learned so much since then, and continue to do so. The main problem with being young is that you don't realize what you've yet to realize.
> The longer you are on this earth, the more wisdom and experience you will acquire.
Well, maybe. You get experience when things happen. The more you play it safe, the less happens. And you only get wisdom when you think about your experiences.
There are plenty of people with wisdom well beyond their years.
> The main problem with being young is that you don't realize what you've yet to realize.
Bad news! It gets worse. At some point, just when you start to feel like you know what you don't know, you realize that they are making new things up faster than you can keep track. Talking to people a generation younger than me can be a humbling experience. I have to tread carefully, as you do when you're talking with a person from another country.
Well, maybe. You get experience when things happen. The more you play it safe, the less happens. And you only get wisdom when you think about your experiences.
There are plenty of people with wisdom well beyond their years.
> The main problem with being young is that you don't realize what you've yet to realize.
Bad news! It gets worse. At some point, just when you start to feel like you know what you don't know, you realize that they are making new things up faster than you can keep track. Talking to people a generation younger than me can be a humbling experience. I have to tread carefully, as you do when you're talking with a person from another country.
> There are plenty of people with wisdom well beyond their years.
I still haven't met any. I've met plenty of smart kids, and I'm pretty sure I was one, 15 years ago. However, I had no idea what I was doing, and worse yet, had the hubris to think I did.
I was insufferable, and I'd never hire 15-years-ago me. I also won't hire any other young engineers -- I'll let them find out how little they actually know on someone else's dime.
On the other hand, if I was in the VC game, I'd absolutely leverage young engineers as grist for my mill. They're the most amenable to the risk, and it doesn't really matter if the vast majority of small investments fail (and they will, especially given the inexperienced teams), if you hit just a few home run exits.
> Bad news! It gets worse. At some point, just when you start to feel like you know what you don't know, you realize that they are making new things up faster than you can keep track. Talking to people a generation younger than me can be a humbling experience. I have to tread carefully, as you do when you're talking with a person from another country.
That's unnecessarily defeatist. There are steady advances, but there's very little that's genuinely new under the sun, and quite a bit of what the youngsters get excited about is just the cyclic rediscovery of what we already knew.
I still haven't met any. I've met plenty of smart kids, and I'm pretty sure I was one, 15 years ago. However, I had no idea what I was doing, and worse yet, had the hubris to think I did.
I was insufferable, and I'd never hire 15-years-ago me. I also won't hire any other young engineers -- I'll let them find out how little they actually know on someone else's dime.
On the other hand, if I was in the VC game, I'd absolutely leverage young engineers as grist for my mill. They're the most amenable to the risk, and it doesn't really matter if the vast majority of small investments fail (and they will, especially given the inexperienced teams), if you hit just a few home run exits.
> Bad news! It gets worse. At some point, just when you start to feel like you know what you don't know, you realize that they are making new things up faster than you can keep track. Talking to people a generation younger than me can be a humbling experience. I have to tread carefully, as you do when you're talking with a person from another country.
That's unnecessarily defeatist. There are steady advances, but there's very little that's genuinely new under the sun, and quite a bit of what the youngsters get excited about is just the cyclic rediscovery of what we already knew.
> I also won't hire any other young engineers
Your loss, really. I've interviewed and worked with several young engineers who were really top-notch, who worked out great, and were mature in their approach to work and life in general. They also tend to come with a lower price tag. Some have not worked out so well, but I don't have any reason to believe that the failure rate changes dramatically with age.
As I myself get older, I'm not so sure that the maturity level changes all that much either. People are just better at hiding their flaws as they grow older, then you find out too late when there's an issue.
Your loss, really. I've interviewed and worked with several young engineers who were really top-notch, who worked out great, and were mature in their approach to work and life in general. They also tend to come with a lower price tag. Some have not worked out so well, but I don't have any reason to believe that the failure rate changes dramatically with age.
As I myself get older, I'm not so sure that the maturity level changes all that much either. People are just better at hiding their flaws as they grow older, then you find out too late when there's an issue.
I've never worked with a top-notch young engineer. Brilliant, yes, top notch, no. Every single one has had misguided priorities, significant experience gaps (leading to both bad engineering decisions and misguided priorities), and -- even in the best of them -- hubris.
Despite their intelligence they've always required constant senior level supervision, and have generally been the ones most likely to create maintenance-heavy components due to inexperience.
I'm not sure why our experiences differ so substantially, but I'm happy to hire only senior engineers and let other companies pay to train the young ones. The senior engineers are more than worth the minimal financial premium.
Despite their intelligence they've always required constant senior level supervision, and have generally been the ones most likely to create maintenance-heavy components due to inexperience.
I'm not sure why our experiences differ so substantially, but I'm happy to hire only senior engineers and let other companies pay to train the young ones. The senior engineers are more than worth the minimal financial premium.
"I'm not sure why our experiences differ so substantially"
Sounds like you have bad projects management and let people go cowboy and build bad things because you don't communicate with each other.
Sounds like you have bad projects management and let people go cowboy and build bad things because you don't communicate with each other.
No, it's simply impossible to babysit junior engineers to a sufficient degree as to prevent bad implementation without effectively doing their job for them. It's not worth the effort.
It's called comparative advantage. Have junior engineers work on easy things that are a waste of time for senior engineers to do. Personally, I'd rather not have my $200,000 a year senior engineer working on debugging cross browser javascript or writing documentation.
Hopefully he's not wasting a bunch of time debugging cross-browser javascript because A) He already knows how to fix it, or B) It didn't break to begin with. JavaScript is hardly difficult material.
As for documentation, I'm not sure quite what to say. The best person to document code is the person that's writing it. The best person to document things that aren't code is a technical writer, not an engineer.
As for documentation, I'm not sure quite what to say. The best person to document code is the person that's writing it. The best person to document things that aren't code is a technical writer, not an engineer.
Those were just example of simple tasks that a junior developer can do. And a junior develop in my company is someone of any age who has less experience. What kind of industry would we have if we only hired senior developers? If we said junior developers have no value? I guess we'd be a bit like the fashion industry where anyone new is just supposed to work for free.
Ah, I love when "I can't think of a way to do it" turns into "it's simply impossible".
Not only can I not think of a way to do it, I have never, in 15 years, seen an organization that successfully managed junior engineers in a way that resulted in the production of code on par with what senior engineers would produce.
Getting good work out of junior engineers requires a management investment greater than the cost of simply hiring experienced engineers to begin with, and they still will not produce code to the same level of robustness and quality.
I can see from your company that you don't operate this way. I assume this choice expands the apparent pool of available applicants, but it also ensures that your company is likely completely uninteresting to senior, experienced, genuinely expert engineers.
In my experience, there are two kinds of engineering managers. The first is the kind that has figured out (or thinks they've figured out) how to get decent enough code out of inexperienced or just plain bad engineers. The second is the kind that realizes that they don't have to work nearly so hard or jump through so many procedural hoops if they just hire people that know what they're doing to begin with.
What's more, those experienced people tend to have extensive contacts and make it easy to hire their friends.
That said, I'm happy to let you spend the time, money, and energy training and managing junior engineers, while dealing with their subpar work output.
Getting good work out of junior engineers requires a management investment greater than the cost of simply hiring experienced engineers to begin with, and they still will not produce code to the same level of robustness and quality.
I can see from your company that you don't operate this way. I assume this choice expands the apparent pool of available applicants, but it also ensures that your company is likely completely uninteresting to senior, experienced, genuinely expert engineers.
In my experience, there are two kinds of engineering managers. The first is the kind that has figured out (or thinks they've figured out) how to get decent enough code out of inexperienced or just plain bad engineers. The second is the kind that realizes that they don't have to work nearly so hard or jump through so many procedural hoops if they just hire people that know what they're doing to begin with.
What's more, those experienced people tend to have extensive contacts and make it easy to hire their friends.
That said, I'm happy to let you spend the time, money, and energy training and managing junior engineers, while dealing with their subpar work output.
This thread has grown somewhat stale but I never replied initially and I think I can probably address some of the differences in our experience. I don't run a company, so I almost certainly have a different viewpoint, but senior engineers are often great at displacing blame/CYA, so it may not always be apparent to management what is really going on in an organization. I've never worked at a place that had particularly well-engineered software to begin with, and there were those who were either capable (and willing) to do a little bit of ad-hoc coding with an eye towards refactoring on a larger scale, or those who weren't. I've had really bad experiences with 'senior engineers' being left to build something semi-autonomously, thinking they know the best solutions a priori, etc., and seeing nothing functional at the end of months of effort. I've seen it happen way more than with junior engineers who are at least a little unsure of themselves. I'd probably take a good senior engineer over a good junior one for many of the hand-holding reasons you point out, but I really have worked with several young folks who did not have the problems you've encountered.
Fascinating! Please tell me more about how I run my company, and all the things I apparently believe. Plus more about what kind of manager I am.
You certainly have an active imagination, so I'm sure the next things you make up would be just as interesting.
You certainly have an active imagination, so I'm sure the next things you make up would be just as interesting.
Sorry, apparently somebody downvoter prefers dry prose to sarcasm. A more temperate reply:
Flatline3, you're wrong in pretty much every particular about how I work and how my company works.
It's certainly possible to mentor younger developers well and at low organizational cost. It depends a lot on your process. In particular, I think pair programming, frequent commits, good unit tests, and collective code ownership together make it entirely safe to hire somebody younger, and you get substantial benefits.
I also think it's shortsighted to say, "Hey, let the shitty shops train junior developers." Great senior developers have to come from somewhere, and I think they'll never get great working at places that don't have their acts at least somewhat together. I benefited a lot from people taking a chance on me when I was younger, and I think I have a professional obligation to return the favor.
Flatline3, you're wrong in pretty much every particular about how I work and how my company works.
It's certainly possible to mentor younger developers well and at low organizational cost. It depends a lot on your process. In particular, I think pair programming, frequent commits, good unit tests, and collective code ownership together make it entirely safe to hire somebody younger, and you get substantial benefits.
I also think it's shortsighted to say, "Hey, let the shitty shops train junior developers." Great senior developers have to come from somewhere, and I think they'll never get great working at places that don't have their acts at least somewhat together. I benefited a lot from people taking a chance on me when I was younger, and I think I have a professional obligation to return the favor.
Except Engineers have a fairly narrow cost range. Something like 50k - 200k except add in Benefits, Management Overhead, Resources (computers, software, office space etc.) are more or less flat and it's really only about a 2.5x cost increase from fresh from a no name school to some of the vary best in the field. Add in communication overhead if you let the team grow and unless you have really simple problems easily solvable by recent graduates it's best to focus on an experienced team.
[deleted]
Yes. Good young engineers are very amenable to learning new approaches. And I love the raw energy of somebody who is 25 and sees every project as a fresh! exciting! new! challenge!
I would never publicly post opinions that could put me or my current or future employer/company into legal jeopardy with respect to discrimination against protected classes.
Yet, there seems to be quite a bit of this on here.
Yet, there seems to be quite a bit of this on here.
In the US, age is only a protected class for the range of 40+, as per federal law.
However, what we're talking about is experience. Those with little experience are not members of a protected class.
However, what we're talking about is experience. Those with little experience are not members of a protected class.
For example, a CEO getting up on stage saying "We never hire anybody older than 28 years old!"
As far as I know, nothing ever happened because of that.
As far as I know, nothing ever happened because of that.
Are you replying to yourself below? flatline responds to flatline3. Suspicious.
That said, I hate ageism. Always have. However, as I get older, I find it more annoying that 22 year olds think they are "old." I'm 35 and Know I'm not old so 13 years my junior as old is just silly. Certainly 22 year olds can be mature. Old... no.
That said, I hate ageism. Always have. However, as I get older, I find it more annoying that 22 year olds think they are "old." I'm 35 and Know I'm not old so 13 years my junior as old is just silly. Certainly 22 year olds can be mature. Old... no.
> Are you replying to yourself below? flatline responds to flatline3. Suspicious.
No. Caused me to raise my eyebrows too.
No. Caused me to raise my eyebrows too.
Doubly eyebrow-raising three hours later: http://i.imgur.com/jL7m2.png
I'd never hire old engineers, they're stuck in their ways and insist on using SOAP. Software engineering is a young man's game as people on slashdot were apt to say. Old programmers are always complaining about being forced into management. Plus they insist on things like having time for their families. Old engineers can't focus %100 on the company like young geeks satisfied with foosball and beer.
Ageism cuts both ways, and it's never an excuse for winning an argument or evaluating a person. You evaluate people on their merits or you pass over valuable people and pay the price for it.
Older people can be full of hubris too, using appeals to experience and authority arguments to shortcut rational thinking.
Using the I'm more experienced than you argument is the same as people saying you insist on C++ cause that is what your comfortable and experienced with, and you'll cost the company millions in lost productivity.
Ageism cuts both ways, and it's never an excuse for winning an argument or evaluating a person. You evaluate people on their merits or you pass over valuable people and pay the price for it.
Older people can be full of hubris too, using appeals to experience and authority arguments to shortcut rational thinking.
Using the I'm more experienced than you argument is the same as people saying you insist on C++ cause that is what your comfortable and experienced with, and you'll cost the company millions in lost productivity.
I'd never hire old engineers, they're stuck in their ways and insist on using SOAP
Just as a nice case study...
I was "old" when SOAP got popular (late twenties early thirties). Most of my (age) peer group seemed to agree with me in that it seemed over complicated and messy. We were, of course, old stick-in-the-muds who couldn't adapt to the new technology :-)
It was the "young" developers who jumped on it more than anybody else that I saw - the everything-in-xml crowd.
Ten years on, of course, the "young" crowd are now seen as "old".
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose :-)
Ageism cuts both ways, and it's never an excuse for winning an argument or evaluating a person. You evaluate people on their merits or you pass over valuable people and pay the price for it.
Amen. Young and old both have stick-in-the-mud types. It's just that the young folk haven't had the time to demonstrate whether they are stick-in-the-mud types. You don't want to hire them whatever their age.
Using node.js (or whatever) doesn't make you cool, hip, and open to new ideas. I can guarantee that, if this forum is still around in ten years time, there will be somebody complaining about this old fker who wants to do everything in node.js :-)
Just as a nice case study...
I was "old" when SOAP got popular (late twenties early thirties). Most of my (age) peer group seemed to agree with me in that it seemed over complicated and messy. We were, of course, old stick-in-the-muds who couldn't adapt to the new technology :-)
It was the "young" developers who jumped on it more than anybody else that I saw - the everything-in-xml crowd.
Ten years on, of course, the "young" crowd are now seen as "old".
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose :-)
Ageism cuts both ways, and it's never an excuse for winning an argument or evaluating a person. You evaluate people on their merits or you pass over valuable people and pay the price for it.
Amen. Young and old both have stick-in-the-mud types. It's just that the young folk haven't had the time to demonstrate whether they are stick-in-the-mud types. You don't want to hire them whatever their age.
Using node.js (or whatever) doesn't make you cool, hip, and open to new ideas. I can guarantee that, if this forum is still around in ten years time, there will be somebody complaining about this old fker who wants to do everything in node.js :-)
Did you seriously refer to late twenties as 'old'?
Parts of the industry certainly do. I've observed it going down from 40 years to 35 years and now to the early 30s.
In the same way (not industry-related) I've observed that people who are 50+ years are seen as "elderly". That was 60 or 65 some 15 years ago.
In the same way (not industry-related) I've observed that people who are 50+ years are seen as "elderly". That was 60 or 65 some 15 years ago.
It's been my experience that there's quite a lot of folk in their late teens/early twenties who see 29/30/31 as "old" :-)
There are always bad engineers, which is what you're really describing above.
All other things being equal, I'll always pick the older engineer with more experience and maturity than the young engineer without.
All other things being equal, I'll always pick the older engineer with more experience and maturity than the young engineer without.
My work place must be fucked up. Me as the old guy is still baffled why the young guys implemented our API in SOAP. a few of us older guys are. And this was in the last couple years. Way after SOAP lost its cool.
This stereotyping reminds me of stuff that was said about women in the past.
Woman are this, women are that, we don't want to hire women because they are XYZ. People don't say it as much explicitly anymore, but I see it in their attitudes.
Every woman is different, as is every 18 year old. We should not have pre-conceived notions about what they are like, we should have a hiring process that is a meritocracy where we will let anyone prove to us they have what it takes. Just because you haven't met a young person who would make a good engineer at your company doesn't mean they don't exist. Young people, like women, have often not been aware or been encouraged to seek opportunities in engineering.
Woman are this, women are that, we don't want to hire women because they are XYZ. People don't say it as much explicitly anymore, but I see it in their attitudes.
Every woman is different, as is every 18 year old. We should not have pre-conceived notions about what they are like, we should have a hiring process that is a meritocracy where we will let anyone prove to us they have what it takes. Just because you haven't met a young person who would make a good engineer at your company doesn't mean they don't exist. Young people, like women, have often not been aware or been encouraged to seek opportunities in engineering.
quite a bit of what the youngsters get excited about is just the cyclic rediscovery of what we already knew
This happens _a lot_.
This happens _a lot_.
> You get experience when things happen. The more you play it safe, the less happens. And you only get wisdom when you think about your experiences.
In some ways, yes. But just mundane everyday life teaches you a lot -- the hundreds of coworkers you've interacted with, the stories you've swapped about dealing with projects and bosses and clients and customers, your romantic relationships, etc. You pick up on the patterns of failure and success and, above all, good judgment, that can't really be learned any other way.
> plenty of people with widsom well beyond their years
Things like raw coding/product talent, pure drive -- sure. You can have these at any age. But wisdom beyond one's years? I wish it were true, but I don't think it is.
Running a whole product team, dealing with employees, stakeholders, deciding what to invest resources in, etc. -- that's where maturity and experience really provide their value, so you don't make all the really costly novice mistakes. Intelligence is very helpful, but it isn't a substitute.
In some ways, yes. But just mundane everyday life teaches you a lot -- the hundreds of coworkers you've interacted with, the stories you've swapped about dealing with projects and bosses and clients and customers, your romantic relationships, etc. You pick up on the patterns of failure and success and, above all, good judgment, that can't really be learned any other way.
> plenty of people with widsom well beyond their years
Things like raw coding/product talent, pure drive -- sure. You can have these at any age. But wisdom beyond one's years? I wish it were true, but I don't think it is.
Running a whole product team, dealing with employees, stakeholders, deciding what to invest resources in, etc. -- that's where maturity and experience really provide their value, so you don't make all the really costly novice mistakes. Intelligence is very helpful, but it isn't a substitute.
> hundreds of coworkers you've interacted with, the stories you've swapped about dealing with projects and bosses and clients and customers, your romantic relationships
Yes. Those are some of the experiences I'm talking about. Take a safe job, don't date, don't interact much: you'll have a lot less raw material to turn into wisdom.
> But wisdom beyond one's years?
I have seen it. It's easiest to spot in people who've experienced early struggle or tragedy. It's not true for all of them (or even many of them), but they definitely have the raw material.
Yes. Those are some of the experiences I'm talking about. Take a safe job, don't date, don't interact much: you'll have a lot less raw material to turn into wisdom.
> But wisdom beyond one's years?
I have seen it. It's easiest to spot in people who've experienced early struggle or tragedy. It's not true for all of them (or even many of them), but they definitely have the raw material.
> There are plenty of people with wisdom well beyond their years.
Yes, there are. But not in the sense you want to mean. There are plenty of kids who have lived through great hardship, who have had to learn survival and coping skills which one would only expect of someone much older. Pampered, middle class American white kids don't have that kind of wisdom, never will.
What you are referring is cocky people who take their limited experience as some greater truth when all they are really doing is revealing how little they know.
Wisdom comes from experience. Experience requires you both to have done things in your life and to have had the time to reflect on those events. That comes with age.
Yes, there are. But not in the sense you want to mean. There are plenty of kids who have lived through great hardship, who have had to learn survival and coping skills which one would only expect of someone much older. Pampered, middle class American white kids don't have that kind of wisdom, never will.
What you are referring is cocky people who take their limited experience as some greater truth when all they are really doing is revealing how little they know.
Wisdom comes from experience. Experience requires you both to have done things in your life and to have had the time to reflect on those events. That comes with age.
Wisdom comes from experience. Experience requires you both to have done things in your life and to have had the time to reflect on those events. That comes with age.
... and with having those experiences, and with having the ability to reflect and learn from them.
I agree with William. I know some folk in their twenties who have done more (and reflected on what they've done and learned from it) that some folk I know that are my age (40s).
Wisdom comes from having experiences and the ability to learn from them. While that's roughly correlated with age there are:
* plenty of older folk who don't have many experiences, or don't have a good ability to learn from them
* plenty of younger folk who push themselves - or get pushed - to have a bunch of experience and learn those lessons very well.
I know people in their 20s who are wiser than people I know in their 60s. And vice versa. Personally I vastly prefer to look at people first rather than make assumptions based on age.
... and with having those experiences, and with having the ability to reflect and learn from them.
I agree with William. I know some folk in their twenties who have done more (and reflected on what they've done and learned from it) that some folk I know that are my age (40s).
Wisdom comes from having experiences and the ability to learn from them. While that's roughly correlated with age there are:
* plenty of older folk who don't have many experiences, or don't have a good ability to learn from them
* plenty of younger folk who push themselves - or get pushed - to have a bunch of experience and learn those lessons very well.
I know people in their 20s who are wiser than people I know in their 60s. And vice versa. Personally I vastly prefer to look at people first rather than make assumptions based on age.
I am fascinated by your claimed mindreading skills. The sense I want to mean?
Thanks, I know what I'm referring to. As I explained elsewhere in the thread (and before you posted), some of the people with wisdom beyond their years are indeed the people who had to learn coping skills early.
Also, wisdom definitely does not come with age. I have met unwise retirees because they assiduously did not think about their experiences.
Thanks, I know what I'm referring to. As I explained elsewhere in the thread (and before you posted), some of the people with wisdom beyond their years are indeed the people who had to learn coping skills early.
Also, wisdom definitely does not come with age. I have met unwise retirees because they assiduously did not think about their experiences.
One thing you eventually realize is that experiences always happen and there's no way to prevent them. You really don't have to hunt them out. Instead you may eventually just notice and appreciate them when they do happen.
I ran all over the world with a backpack before I realized that everything is relative and my adventurous experiences weren't necessarily any more valuable than a friend's who stuck around and built a family (which I'm finally doing now myself too).
I ran all over the world with a backpack before I realized that everything is relative and my adventurous experiences weren't necessarily any more valuable than a friend's who stuck around and built a family (which I'm finally doing now myself too).
There are plenty of people with wisdom well beyond their years.
True. But they, in my experience anyway, they still end up way wiser at 30 than they were at 20 :-)
True. But they, in my experience anyway, they still end up way wiser at 30 than they were at 20 :-)
I'll be 22 in a couple weeks, and I already see the progression from when I was 12, 15, 17, 20... However, it's not a strictly monotonic function of progress. Me_{2008} had a better life philosophy than Me_{2009}, though I think Me_{2012} has surpassed both plus I know a lot more. I've learned things when I was younger that later I either forgot or learned something opposing the initial belief, and then later either relearned or realized the original belief was the correct one. I'm certain there are things I have yet to (or may never) learn/relearn and thus correct whatever is incorrect with my present self... Was there something I understood at age 16 that I don't anymore, and such a thing would make me (even just marginally) better? Probably.
Do you find your self progressing after each year, or every few years, and never taking a wrong turn? As an extreme example I can imagine someone having a bad drug problem in their 30s during which they're worse off in every way than in their 20s, and only come out of it in their 40s. I think for most people improvement and regression are more subtle and happen in many dimensions. Strict progress is illusory. I think it's too easy to get caught up in your present values and discount the wisdom of your younger self just because you care about your present self more than your past self.
It's also fairly obvious with older people that their minds just don't work like they did when they were in their 30s. Are they really wiser, do they really have more total knowledge than at their prime? What's the ratio of those who are and those who aren't? I also like to point out that a lot of important knowledge and wisdom can be found in books alone without experience. It's easy to forget this fact among all humans regardless of age: other people (including your past selves) may be privy to information you are not privy to.
Do you find your self progressing after each year, or every few years, and never taking a wrong turn? As an extreme example I can imagine someone having a bad drug problem in their 30s during which they're worse off in every way than in their 20s, and only come out of it in their 40s. I think for most people improvement and regression are more subtle and happen in many dimensions. Strict progress is illusory. I think it's too easy to get caught up in your present values and discount the wisdom of your younger self just because you care about your present self more than your past self.
It's also fairly obvious with older people that their minds just don't work like they did when they were in their 30s. Are they really wiser, do they really have more total knowledge than at their prime? What's the ratio of those who are and those who aren't? I also like to point out that a lot of important knowledge and wisdom can be found in books alone without experience. It's easy to forget this fact among all humans regardless of age: other people (including your past selves) may be privy to information you are not privy to.
You're right about a lot here. Gaining wisdom with age is not guaranteed, and it's not a monotonic progression. Your comment about drug addiction is insightful.
But neither of those invalidate the original point -- that you can have age without wisdom, but not wisdom without age.
But neither of those invalidate the original point -- that you can have age without wisdom, but not wisdom without age.
Taken at face value, the fact you can't have wisdom without age seems nothing more than a truism. The more interesting questions are: what age is necessary (since if old men can be utter fools, no age is sufficient) for a potential (realized or not) of significant amounts of wisdom (enough "to be dangerous" and acquire more on one's own), and is more age always better? I'd say no to the second, and arbitrarily 14 (with fuzzy boundaries) to the first. There are those in history (and right now) wiser in their teens than most others in the population above their 50s. "Whence wisdom?" is thus not answered with "age", even if people do in fact have to age to acquire wisdom given the nature of time. It is acquired through study and thought, and it is hard to come by in a vacuum. Personal experience matters to some degree, but I'd argue the experience of others is more important (and easier) to learn from. ("I don't need to try krokodil to see why it's bad", etc.) Those in history who were wise well beyond their years as a young teen usually had a wise helping hand tutoring them for many years. It's much like differential and integral calculus: a 7 year old can learn it without too much difficulty if they have the right instructor.
Your mileage may vary. But 10 years ago I was writing the same things you and others are here. My perspective changed. I'm just sayin.
So you assert you're further along the path with respect to the nature of wisdom (or am I misunderstanding you?), but you have provided no evidence to suggest whether that's really the case or whether you have actually gone off in the brush mistakenly thinking you are getting further ahead. There's an aphorism that comes to mind: "The great menace to progress is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge." As I alluded to above, I've thought the same thing about "I used to do that..", albeit with a shorter time interval. When I think it these days it's a warning sign, though I admit in many instances it really does seem like past me was obviously off-course and stupid, and I can see others making the same mistakes I made. What's interesting to me isn't the observation of that observation, what's interesting is what particular mistakes I think are being made. (Without elaboration, some examples include mistakes related to beliefs about Objectivism, communism, sovereignty, money, and cultures. An example where I was more correct at 13 than I was at 17 was beliefs about the nature of knowledge.)
So, what mistakes am I and others here making? What made your perspective change, and why are you sure your current perspective is less wrong? I've given some reasons for why I believe what I believe, how about you?
So, what mistakes am I and others here making? What made your perspective change, and why are you sure your current perspective is less wrong? I've given some reasons for why I believe what I believe, how about you?
I don't assert anything, I'm just sharing my experience: That I made _exactly_ the same arguments/points you and others are making when I was young and not taken as seriously. Now, having walked further down this path, I feel differently. I'm just sharing with you a single data point.
Age is correlative to wisdom, and yes, wisdom has plenty of value.
That being said, there are lots of exciting things to do when you know not what you realize. Especially for certain types of overachievers and perfectionists, we are significantly more hampered by what we can do excellently vs what we can simply deliver passably.
Go enjoy life and collect those data points, success and failure. :)
That being said, there are lots of exciting things to do when you know not what you realize. Especially for certain types of overachievers and perfectionists, we are significantly more hampered by what we can do excellently vs what we can simply deliver passably.
Go enjoy life and collect those data points, success and failure. :)
Yes but that doesn't mean any 25 year old must be wiser than any other 18 year old. This means those 18 year olds who are smarter than the average 18 year old will be disadvantaged.
I can relate to a lot of the points the article makes. When I was 14 I knew just as much as I know know in certain areas but I was never taken seriously because I was 'just a kid'.
I can relate to a lot of the points the article makes. When I was 14 I knew just as much as I know know in certain areas but I was never taken seriously because I was 'just a kid'.
> Yes but that doesn't mean any 25 year old must be wiser than any other 18 year old.
On the flip side, it means an equally applied 25 year old will be just that much wiser than the 18 year old.
On the flip side, it means an equally applied 25 year old will be just that much wiser than the 18 year old.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I turn 22 this year. I feel like I'm constantly learning new things. Not knowledge -- that's easier to obtain than ever -- but hard-won wisdom. Despite that, the list of things I know I don't know keeps growing longer each day. Age matters. And I don't think the OP was disputing this fact.
Young people are constantly told that they're young and inexperienced and don't know much about life, all of which is true. However, this has a huge negative effect on their self-confidence and sense of self-worth. I'm starting a company, and the words I fear most at a negotiation are "You're still young. What do you know about business?"[1] Not a lot of people say those words out loud, but most people at least hint at them. Those words hurt. If someone points out your shitty business practices or poor hacking skills as reasons to not do business with you, you can at least go back home and fix those problems. If someone says they're not going to do business with you because you're 22, then that's that. I don't know how prevalent this phenomenon is in Western countries, but I feel ageism is a huge thing in India.
You don't realize this unless you try to do things that people your age are not expected to do. Here's an anecdote: a friend -- let's call him P -- once interviewed for a senior-level position at a software company. P loves software and electronics and has deep practical knowledge about both. Not surprisingly, he did very well at the interview. According to the HR guys, he was exactly the kind of person they were looking for. So there he is post-interview, talking with one of the HR people about things he has built, when someone reading his resume notices his age for presumably the first time. Long story short, they swear at him for 15 minutes for wasting their time and tell him to GTFO of the building. All because he is 21 at the time.
This sort of stuff starts to get to you after a while, which is why posts like this one are useful. It's true that age is an indicator of wisdom, but as a young person you need not let that get to you. No matter what older people tell you, you need not let your age be a limiting factor in your success. That, I think, is the essence of this post.
PS: I'm not passing a moral judgement on society here. I don't mean to say that the Indian society should coddle young people. I'm just stating facts and sharing some of my feelings.
--
[1] I deal with very small business in what is often called the "unorganized" sector. People in other industries may have different stories to tell.
Young people are constantly told that they're young and inexperienced and don't know much about life, all of which is true. However, this has a huge negative effect on their self-confidence and sense of self-worth. I'm starting a company, and the words I fear most at a negotiation are "You're still young. What do you know about business?"[1] Not a lot of people say those words out loud, but most people at least hint at them. Those words hurt. If someone points out your shitty business practices or poor hacking skills as reasons to not do business with you, you can at least go back home and fix those problems. If someone says they're not going to do business with you because you're 22, then that's that. I don't know how prevalent this phenomenon is in Western countries, but I feel ageism is a huge thing in India.
You don't realize this unless you try to do things that people your age are not expected to do. Here's an anecdote: a friend -- let's call him P -- once interviewed for a senior-level position at a software company. P loves software and electronics and has deep practical knowledge about both. Not surprisingly, he did very well at the interview. According to the HR guys, he was exactly the kind of person they were looking for. So there he is post-interview, talking with one of the HR people about things he has built, when someone reading his resume notices his age for presumably the first time. Long story short, they swear at him for 15 minutes for wasting their time and tell him to GTFO of the building. All because he is 21 at the time.
This sort of stuff starts to get to you after a while, which is why posts like this one are useful. It's true that age is an indicator of wisdom, but as a young person you need not let that get to you. No matter what older people tell you, you need not let your age be a limiting factor in your success. That, I think, is the essence of this post.
PS: I'm not passing a moral judgement on society here. I don't mean to say that the Indian society should coddle young people. I'm just stating facts and sharing some of my feelings.
--
[1] I deal with very small business in what is often called the "unorganized" sector. People in other industries may have different stories to tell.
I agree that you gain what can be called "wisdom" in many areas: you start to see things you've seen before, and you're prepared to act appropriately.
However, I don't know how much that matters. I'm 24, and when I was 17-18, I was KILLING IT as a band manager and show promoter. I sold $80,000 worth of tickets in 3 years for my own bands, and for anyone that's wondering: getting shows at good venues is borderline impossible, getting people to pay to see them another miracle.
I've done things since that people may call "more significant" but they weren't. That was the hardest thing I've ever done and my most significant accomplishment. And I couldn't do it again if I started today.
However, I don't know how much that matters. I'm 24, and when I was 17-18, I was KILLING IT as a band manager and show promoter. I sold $80,000 worth of tickets in 3 years for my own bands, and for anyone that's wondering: getting shows at good venues is borderline impossible, getting people to pay to see them another miracle.
I've done things since that people may call "more significant" but they weren't. That was the hardest thing I've ever done and my most significant accomplishment. And I couldn't do it again if I started today.
I would clarify that age is a proxy for wisdom only if you've meaningfully made use of the given time. A lot of people simply sleep through life, their "xp counter" goes up very slowly.
This is very much in line with the whole "there's no speed limit to learning" and the commonly accepted fact that working in a startup will make you mature much faster than most other positions you might hold.
This is very much in line with the whole "there's no speed limit to learning" and the commonly accepted fact that working in a startup will make you mature much faster than most other positions you might hold.
Age can be a proxy for wisdom and responsibility, but it isn't very accurate. Everyone knows someone in their 40s that act as though they are 15.
Further, the wisdom people gain with age includes what is not possible and what is foolish. History is filled with stories where being a little foolhardy has changed our world. This is why mentor relationships can be so valuable. I recommend everyone commit time to them, they often pay great dividends to both parties.
Further, the wisdom people gain with age includes what is not possible and what is foolish. History is filled with stories where being a little foolhardy has changed our world. This is why mentor relationships can be so valuable. I recommend everyone commit time to them, they often pay great dividends to both parties.
no it's not. most people are born stupid, live stupid and die stupid. I don't know whether your experiences are justified or not and i dare not judge.
But let me put it in a simple analogy, hackernews readers itself amount to a very tiny minority of people worldwide. higher education, same story.
now does either one amount to wisdom or experience? imho, the answer is no. if you look at the world right now, it looks more like the average guy gets more stupid with each day passing.
But let me put it in a simple analogy, hackernews readers itself amount to a very tiny minority of people worldwide. higher education, same story.
now does either one amount to wisdom or experience? imho, the answer is no. if you look at the world right now, it looks more like the average guy gets more stupid with each day passing.
That's also the beauty of it. You get to start with a beginners mind.
[deleted]
Sounds like rather remarkable story, and might have read it all, had the annoyingly small font size, not been forced on Chrome and Safari users.
Grandpa's eyes at age 33, can't read your blog comfortably, as a result. :p
-webkit-text-size-adjust [1][2], is just NOT cool
[1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1831922/how-to-prevent-us...
[2] http://theindustry.cc/css/style.css
Grandpa's eyes at age 33, can't read your blog comfortably, as a result. :p
-webkit-text-size-adjust [1][2], is just NOT cool
[1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1831922/how-to-prevent-us...
[2] http://theindustry.cc/css/style.css
That is obnoxious.
Here's a workaround: http://viewtext.org/article?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheindustry.cc%...
Here's a workaround: http://viewtext.org/article?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheindustry.cc%...
Here's a userstyle that turns off -webkit-text-size-adjust:none on all sites:
http://userstyles.org/styles/54719/ctrl-plus-text-zoom-fix
http://userstyles.org/styles/54719/ctrl-plus-text-zoom-fix
This may sound all bitter and such from some 'old guy', but... I wonder how Jared will view things at 50. Will he be saying "age is just a number", or might he find that people start to pass him over for younger blood? I do realize that much of his story hinged on getting connected to people without them knowing his age up front, but at some point, people will know your age (range, or at least guess somewhat accurately).
I'm not saying he's right or wrong, or I'm right or wrong - I'm not sure there is a 'right' or 'wrong' to be found, but I'm very curious about what his perspective will be 30 years from now.
I'm not saying he's right or wrong, or I'm right or wrong - I'm not sure there is a 'right' or 'wrong' to be found, but I'm very curious about what his perspective will be 30 years from now.
I used to think the same as Jared. I was 14 and writing DirectX 8 mini games for fun in VB6. Thought I could get a job soon, and I'd set myself up nice and early in life.
In high school I had a few "clients" for websites and such as well, as I'd learn PHP by that stage, along with the usual XHTML and CSS - almost just like Jared. It's not the same though.
In the professional space, there is SO many more factors that you're just not ready for until you've worked for a company or two.
That being said, there are exceptional people out there, and they shouldn't be judged by their age. Soon I think there will be more of them. We really just have to remember that no matter how old or "wise" we supposedly get, we're no better than anyone else. We all deserve a chance sometimes.
""" Listen up, maggots. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else. We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world. We are all part of the same compost heap.
In high school I had a few "clients" for websites and such as well, as I'd learn PHP by that stage, along with the usual XHTML and CSS - almost just like Jared. It's not the same though.
In the professional space, there is SO many more factors that you're just not ready for until you've worked for a company or two.
That being said, there are exceptional people out there, and they shouldn't be judged by their age. Soon I think there will be more of them. We really just have to remember that no matter how old or "wise" we supposedly get, we're no better than anyone else. We all deserve a chance sometimes.
""" Listen up, maggots. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else. We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world. We are all part of the same compost heap.
Jared, I nearly cried at the end of reading. So many people, even those closest to me, never believed (and still do not) or understood what you have so beautifully and artfully articulated. Reading what you wrote, I could relate to your every sentiment. People think that just because of an age, we lack the ability to create and provide amazing things. It works against us, beyond the ‘cute’ factor, and it is seemingly a constant pressure and embarrassment that we have no hold over. Then, even in our best moments, people will question what we’ve done and dismiss it as nothing more than an ‘exercise’. It’s aggravating, frustrating and depressing. But then we’ll have those amazing experiences where we meet ‘adults’ that understand this and they treat us like equals. Our opinion, expertise, and passion weigh so much more than a number. The level of gratification from meeting these people, to know that there are others that accept the results we produce, is simply awe-inspiring.
Among my circle of friends back in High School, I can think of only a select few who I can confide with these thoughts. It’s so difficult trying to find someone that really understands these kinds of struggles- the dismissive remarks, the attitude of negativity and failure, etc that people give when they find out your ‘age’.
Thank You for sharing your post with HN. To know that someone else is out there who truly understands these trials and struggles makes me feel just a bit less lonely – to know that I’m not the only one who feels that way about entrepreneurship. Your post was inspiring and for all the articles I’ve read on HN, yours makes everything worth it.
Among my circle of friends back in High School, I can think of only a select few who I can confide with these thoughts. It’s so difficult trying to find someone that really understands these kinds of struggles- the dismissive remarks, the attitude of negativity and failure, etc that people give when they find out your ‘age’.
Thank You for sharing your post with HN. To know that someone else is out there who truly understands these trials and struggles makes me feel just a bit less lonely – to know that I’m not the only one who feels that way about entrepreneurship. Your post was inspiring and for all the articles I’ve read on HN, yours makes everything worth it.
These teenage angst posts are both a little amusing and a little disturbing.
I'll skip the amusement part which you'll realize as you become older and just give you a little warning on this one:
But then we’ll have those amazing experiences where we meet ‘adults’ that understand this and they treat us like equals.
Be aware that there's not a small number of people who will not hesitate to take advantage of young eagerness. Especially in the startup scene.
Learn to distinguish between people who treat you well because they respect you, and people who treat you well because you're running half their business for an intern-salary. It's more common than you, at your age, think.
I'll skip the amusement part which you'll realize as you become older and just give you a little warning on this one:
But then we’ll have those amazing experiences where we meet ‘adults’ that understand this and they treat us like equals.
Be aware that there's not a small number of people who will not hesitate to take advantage of young eagerness. Especially in the startup scene.
Learn to distinguish between people who treat you well because they respect you, and people who treat you well because you're running half their business for an intern-salary. It's more common than you, at your age, think.
Ahh, another one.
I appreciate the lesson and understand that wisdom also comes with age. I don't dismiss that - in fact I realize and acknowledge that. That's why people have mentors, people with decades of life experience to learn from.
"Learn to distinguish between people who treat you well because they respect you, and people who treat you well because you're running half their business for an intern-salary."
Perhaps that is something you did not learn in your youth, but you should know that does not mean that those of similar youth age don't realize that. Personally, this was a point I exploited when I ran my business. Having interns that were years older than me doing work for me. Quite "amusing", as you point out, now that I think back...
Nevertheless, I think your advice is true. Lots of people out to take advantage of young people. This is not new, though and anyone with the level of experience in business having done work previously in youth years would know this.
The pattern that I've noticed is most people will speak similar to you. Those that don't and truly appreciate it were once young entrepreneurs themselves and experienced their levels of 'success' so they understand it. Though perhaps I just choose to surround myself with mentors of that particular quality.
I appreciate the lesson and understand that wisdom also comes with age. I don't dismiss that - in fact I realize and acknowledge that. That's why people have mentors, people with decades of life experience to learn from.
"Learn to distinguish between people who treat you well because they respect you, and people who treat you well because you're running half their business for an intern-salary."
Perhaps that is something you did not learn in your youth, but you should know that does not mean that those of similar youth age don't realize that. Personally, this was a point I exploited when I ran my business. Having interns that were years older than me doing work for me. Quite "amusing", as you point out, now that I think back...
Nevertheless, I think your advice is true. Lots of people out to take advantage of young people. This is not new, though and anyone with the level of experience in business having done work previously in youth years would know this.
The pattern that I've noticed is most people will speak similar to you. Those that don't and truly appreciate it were once young entrepreneurs themselves and experienced their levels of 'success' so they understand it. Though perhaps I just choose to surround myself with mentors of that particular quality.
I was a young entrepreneur. I started a web hosting company in 1998 when I was 16. A real one, not just a white-label reseller.
Here's something I learned: It takes years--several years--to come close to mastering anything of sufficient complexity to be worth mastering. That is just not possible when you're young. We've all had to deal with that.
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once. But I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
Be water, my friend.
Here's something I learned: It takes years--several years--to come close to mastering anything of sufficient complexity to be worth mastering. That is just not possible when you're young. We've all had to deal with that.
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once. But I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
Be water, my friend.
> Here's something I learned: It takes years--several years--to come close to mastering anything of sufficient complexity to be worth mastering. That is just not possible when you're young. We've all had to deal with that.
Magnus Carlsen [1] became the highest rated chess player in the world at 19. This means that either it is possible to master very complex subjects while young, or chess is not very complex.
[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen
Magnus Carlsen [1] became the highest rated chess player in the world at 19. This means that either it is possible to master very complex subjects while young, or chess is not very complex.
[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen
Or it could mean Magnus Carlsen was excepcionally endowed with the traits that make great chess players, as Phelps is to swimming. And his 29 year old self, given the same discipline he must have applied pre-19, would be a much better chess player than himself 10 years back.
I don't understand why people, including the author, are completely disregarding experience here. I agree with the author's points that a young person, even a teen, could bring a lot to the table and has his own qualities, one of which is not great experience. But that doesn't disqualify him for any job, given a hunger to learn and a passion for his work. But to suggest that "the only difference is in music taste"--well, if you measure any one young person against any one older one, you could get that result, but I'd be hard pressed to expect the same when comparing you with yourself 10 years down.
I don't understand why people, including the author, are completely disregarding experience here. I agree with the author's points that a young person, even a teen, could bring a lot to the table and has his own qualities, one of which is not great experience. But that doesn't disqualify him for any job, given a hunger to learn and a passion for his work. But to suggest that "the only difference is in music taste"--well, if you measure any one young person against any one older one, you could get that result, but I'd be hard pressed to expect the same when comparing you with yourself 10 years down.
The point above is not about age but time. Carlsen had been playing chess for at least 11 years before he turned 19.
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I hear you. People often seem to think I've done a lot for my age, whilst I'm thought strange for not necessarily agreeing.
I think the big thing is that most people don't have that interesting a life until after college, and many of those immediately get a relatively boring job.
Starting to get noticed and do interesting things at a younger age just came natural to me, so in a lot of ways I never considered it an achievement until recently.
I think the big thing is that most people don't have that interesting a life until after college, and many of those immediately get a relatively boring job.
Starting to get noticed and do interesting things at a younger age just came natural to me, so in a lot of ways I never considered it an achievement until recently.
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Something I didn't understand at 18 (that I do at 35) is that your 'enemies' may be dealing with things you simply cannot understand.
If a coworker is belligerent to an 18 year old, they are assholes. To a 35 year old (at least to me), the first thing I think of is that I have no idea what their home life is like.
People endure crazy life experiences. I am working with them on a problem that results in revenue for both of us. Just because we're making money, doesn't mean that they're dealing with problems of personal identity, cancer, financial ruin, etc.
Age matters, kid. It fucking sucks. It's cool that you're punk rock about this. But you will achieve more & achieve faster when you realize that age really does matter.
(p.s.- age is not a way to measure wisdom, but it is a wisdom indicator)
If a coworker is belligerent to an 18 year old, they are assholes. To a 35 year old (at least to me), the first thing I think of is that I have no idea what their home life is like.
People endure crazy life experiences. I am working with them on a problem that results in revenue for both of us. Just because we're making money, doesn't mean that they're dealing with problems of personal identity, cancer, financial ruin, etc.
Age matters, kid. It fucking sucks. It's cool that you're punk rock about this. But you will achieve more & achieve faster when you realize that age really does matter.
(p.s.- age is not a way to measure wisdom, but it is a wisdom indicator)
> If a coworker is belligerent to an 18 year old, they are assholes. To a 35 year old (at least to me), the first thing I think of is that I have no idea what their home life is like.
I'm sorry, but I don't care what your home life is when you're at work. You're there to do your job, and communicating with your coworkers without being an ass is part of that. It sucks that <insert bad thing here>, but your job should not be affected by that.
If we're out at a pub in a non-professional setting, that's different; feel free to pour out your soul. But when we're on the clock, just do your job.
I say this having had a very, very close friend die on the morning of my first real world product launch. I had been up all night hammering out every last detail when I got the call from my mom, around 7am. At that moment I knew that the right thing to do was to finish what I had to do, and go home and mourn on my own time; it was what was fair to my coworkers, working right along with me, and to myself. It wasn't their problem, and if I had lashed out at them it would've done nothing but impede our progress. Sometimes you have to step up and do what needs to be done.
I'm sorry, but I don't care what your home life is when you're at work. You're there to do your job, and communicating with your coworkers without being an ass is part of that. It sucks that <insert bad thing here>, but your job should not be affected by that.
If we're out at a pub in a non-professional setting, that's different; feel free to pour out your soul. But when we're on the clock, just do your job.
I say this having had a very, very close friend die on the morning of my first real world product launch. I had been up all night hammering out every last detail when I got the call from my mom, around 7am. At that moment I knew that the right thing to do was to finish what I had to do, and go home and mourn on my own time; it was what was fair to my coworkers, working right along with me, and to myself. It wasn't their problem, and if I had lashed out at them it would've done nothing but impede our progress. Sometimes you have to step up and do what needs to be done.
I'm from the UK, I know all about stiff-upper-lip but even to me this seems like unnecessary martyrdom.
I would feel that I had failed my staff if any of them thought that our product was so fragile that delaying launch by a week so they could mourn would cause irrevocable damage.
I would feel that I had failed my staff if any of them thought that our product was so fragile that delaying launch by a week so they could mourn would cause irrevocable damage.
It is good that you can separate the two so well. Depending on where you work you may find out very quickly that a LOT of people can't... they consciously or sub-consciously take their problems with them. And I think the older you get, the more "self-righteous" you are about it, as in more likely to not care just as much and turn your bad feelings out instead of keeping them in and being a good soldier.
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Ten Thousand Hours.
This is a beautiful post.
Here's the deal. As you get older, more and more people fall into mediocrity. Age is a number - it's also a responsibility. You will meet 40 year olds who you'll think - what the fuck did you do with your life? And you'll meet 40 year olds who you'll wish that - at some moment of divine clarity - you'll be half as smart as. The second hand counts with stunning accuracy. Don't judge yourself against the mediocre. Look at the people who rose to the top. Some were smart at 18 and drifted off of that cleverness for quite some time until it caught up to them. Others rose above. Rise above.
Here's the deal. As you get older, more and more people fall into mediocrity. Age is a number - it's also a responsibility. You will meet 40 year olds who you'll think - what the fuck did you do with your life? And you'll meet 40 year olds who you'll wish that - at some moment of divine clarity - you'll be half as smart as. The second hand counts with stunning accuracy. Don't judge yourself against the mediocre. Look at the people who rose to the top. Some were smart at 18 and drifted off of that cleverness for quite some time until it caught up to them. Others rose above. Rise above.
Keep pushing, don't stop. I have seen many people peak at 18. The key is to keep moving your feet even when it feels like you are not going anywhere. PUSH PUSH PUSH! Happy Birthday, Lad:)
When the young say,"there are some young people who are wise beyond their years",you should translate it as "I am one of those young people who is wise beyond my years."No wise person ever says that.
When the young say,"there are some young people who are wise beyond their years",you should translate it as "I am one of those young people who is wise beyond my years."No wise person ever says that.
What happens when "old" folk like me and @wpetrie say it? :-)
I am wiser than I was in my 20s, but I know people in their 20s who have become wiser faster than I did. They had more stuff happen to them (through hard work, or good luck, or bad luck) - and learned from it well.
What happens when "old" folk like me and @wpetrie say it? :-)
I am wiser than I was in my 20s, but I know people in their 20s who have become wiser faster than I did. They had more stuff happen to them (through hard work, or good luck, or bad luck) - and learned from it well.
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Wow, I am amazed and a bit disappointed with a lot of these responses. I've seen plenty of young people who are much more mature, intelligent, and hard-working than most 40 and 50 year olds. Yes, in general there is a correlation with increasing age and other positive traits, but there are plenty of exceptions that cannot be overlooked. To overlook someone simply because of age would be extremely foolish.
Intelligence and hard-work are extremely important, but it can't wholly make for experience.
How can you write about start-ups without ever having lived through a downturn? Sure, you can read about it, but the proper level of skepticism bordering on cynicism is impossible if all you've ever seen is the fat years.
How can you write about start-ups without ever having lived through a downturn? Sure, you can read about it, but the proper level of skepticism bordering on cynicism is impossible if all you've ever seen is the fat years.
If you've done enough mathematical analysis of previous downturns and trends, there is no need to experience one yourself. You can obtain all of the information you need to make better (future) predictions through objective study, and in my opinion this is much more effective than some sort of intuitive hunch accumulated through the years.
Are you 18 yourself? I would be surprised if you weren't, because now that I'm 30, I don't believe the way you do anymore.
Some knowledge you can only gain through experience, no matter how smart you think you are.
Some knowledge you can only gain through experience, no matter how smart you think you are.
No, I'm not. I'm 22. I realize a lot of people older than me enjoy saying "I used to think the way you did, but now I've seen the light", but I've found myself to be fairly consistent over the years. I've had no epiphanies or deep insights into the "way things should be" just because I've gotten older. I think perhaps it is a psychological trick -- you just assume that some sort of deeper thinking comes as you age. There's a lot of great physicists who did their best work in their early 20s and never did much great afterwards because they got locked into one way of looking at things.
If you want, I'll get back on this thread in 15 years and tell you if you were right or not regarding additional accumulation of "deep knowledge" (whatever that vaguely-formed concept should represent).
>> "Are you 18? I would be surprised if you weren't."
At least to me, this comes across as sort of an arrogant comment that I really wouldn't expect on Hacker News. This whole "wisdom with age" is a lot of unfalsifiable nonsense the way I see it. Any sort of experiment I could propose would be shot down with "Oh, don't worry about it. There's just something magic about getting older, and well, you really can't say anything to challenge that.
If you want, I'll get back on this thread in 15 years and tell you if you were right or not regarding additional accumulation of "deep knowledge" (whatever that vaguely-formed concept should represent).
>> "Are you 18? I would be surprised if you weren't."
At least to me, this comes across as sort of an arrogant comment that I really wouldn't expect on Hacker News. This whole "wisdom with age" is a lot of unfalsifiable nonsense the way I see it. Any sort of experiment I could propose would be shot down with "Oh, don't worry about it. There's just something magic about getting older, and well, you really can't say anything to challenge that.
It is true about physicists, also mathematicians (look at the Fields medal winners.)
On the other hand, novel writing is by and large a middle age and older persons' game. There are a handful of great novels from people in their twenties, but most of those authors go on to write even greater works later in life.
There are advantages and disadvantages to youth. Trying to pretend that everyone is equal and it is all a matter of how hard you try is one of the great fallacies of our era.
On the other hand, novel writing is by and large a middle age and older persons' game. There are a handful of great novels from people in their twenties, but most of those authors go on to write even greater works later in life.
There are advantages and disadvantages to youth. Trying to pretend that everyone is equal and it is all a matter of how hard you try is one of the great fallacies of our era.
I'm all for starting young, in fact I am downright angry because I think our educational system is holding us back (living in Germany). Just a note, though: you won't stay young. I am not sure it is even worth fussing about being too young, because while you are busy fussing, suddenly you are already old.
"Today I’m 18. I: have worked at two major startups, have written for AppAdvice, Macgasm, Envato, brushed Mashable, encountered numerous entrepreneurs, run The Industry, advise two startups, am a team member of Advise.me..."
I don't know what to think. It's great what he achieved, and I respect that. However, I think he might wake up one day and start asking himself, what did I do? Was my youth fun? Did I go out with people and do what kids usually do or did I just try to accomplish things and get my career somewhere?
When I hear someone being "only 17", or "only 20", or whatever, and wanting to be an entrepreneur, I don't rule them out because they are too young and have too few experience. I worry that they might miss out on living their life.
I don't know what to think. It's great what he achieved, and I respect that. However, I think he might wake up one day and start asking himself, what did I do? Was my youth fun? Did I go out with people and do what kids usually do or did I just try to accomplish things and get my career somewhere?
When I hear someone being "only 17", or "only 20", or whatever, and wanting to be an entrepreneur, I don't rule them out because they are too young and have too few experience. I worry that they might miss out on living their life.
I think it's pretty simplistic, not to mention rather patronizing, to suggest that the only proper way to spend one's youth it to waste time on stuff that other teenagers do, and that people who aspire to something else must be protected from themselves.
Point 1: Age may be a proxy for experience, or wisdom, or whatever -- but anyone who evaluates individuals based on proxies rather than based on their actual attributes is both lazy and (by definition) prejudiced. It's always possible that an individual -- young or old -- will greatly exceed the average capabilities of their age-group. Moreover, those who exceed the average capabilities of their age-group are likely to be extraordinary individuals in more ways than one -- more worth getting to know, in my experience, than individuals who merely live up to the average capabilities of their age-group.
Point 2: I, too, was a wunderkind -- and part of me regrets it. By age 12 I was hacking around the Freenets; by age 14 I'd tested out of high school; by age 16 I'd left home and was working for a well-known architectural institute; by age 18 I was running its computer department and my 3D visualisations and been featured on PBS and NHK, and exhibited around the world. But I was so busy being a wunderkind that I never took the time to be an actual kid. I was enormously serious: didn't goof off, didn't party, didn't kiss a girl until I was damn near 20. I wish I'd gotten an earlier start on all that. Honestly, there's plenty of time in life to rack up accomplishments, but youth is something that you only have once, and my advice to other wunderkind is to exploit the hell out of being young while you still can.
(Not that I would've listened to such advice myself...)
Point 2: I, too, was a wunderkind -- and part of me regrets it. By age 12 I was hacking around the Freenets; by age 14 I'd tested out of high school; by age 16 I'd left home and was working for a well-known architectural institute; by age 18 I was running its computer department and my 3D visualisations and been featured on PBS and NHK, and exhibited around the world. But I was so busy being a wunderkind that I never took the time to be an actual kid. I was enormously serious: didn't goof off, didn't party, didn't kiss a girl until I was damn near 20. I wish I'd gotten an earlier start on all that. Honestly, there's plenty of time in life to rack up accomplishments, but youth is something that you only have once, and my advice to other wunderkind is to exploit the hell out of being young while you still can.
(Not that I would've listened to such advice myself...)
On the flip side, I was identified as a genius level IQ at an early age, joined Mensa, was utterly bored to tears by it and then proceeded to go be as 'normal' a child as I could be.
I fell in with the cool crowd, cut more school than I attended, graduated with a grade .01 points above failing (I'd become an expert at doing the minimum), learned about recreational drugs and spent years in a drug-induced fog.
Later in life I decided to start applying myself and join the work force in IT and found myself utterly unprepared. Work was never hard, naturally, but it took me a long time to get up to speed on the normal, expected social interactions between co-workers.
In summation, while I like who I am and what I do now, I'm often plagued with pangs of regret at having wasted away all that time to rack up accomplishments and get something done with my life. There's still time, naturally, and I don't have a pressing need in life for anything more than I have, and things just move generally slower with a family involved.
I fell in with the cool crowd, cut more school than I attended, graduated with a grade .01 points above failing (I'd become an expert at doing the minimum), learned about recreational drugs and spent years in a drug-induced fog.
Later in life I decided to start applying myself and join the work force in IT and found myself utterly unprepared. Work was never hard, naturally, but it took me a long time to get up to speed on the normal, expected social interactions between co-workers.
In summation, while I like who I am and what I do now, I'm often plagued with pangs of regret at having wasted away all that time to rack up accomplishments and get something done with my life. There's still time, naturally, and I don't have a pressing need in life for anything more than I have, and things just move generally slower with a family involved.
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i would have to say age does matter
i am sure by the time he is my age he would have done a lot more than i dream could do
but i would never have someone so young as my partner, or even hire him for any critical job
he have so little too loose at this young age ... its too risky to make business with him
but i would never have someone so young as my partner, or even hire him for any critical job
he have so little too loose at this young age ... its too risky to make business with him
Reminds me of when I was 15 (now 24), I started designing & building porn sites for customers that didn't know my age. Made a lot of money that way. Also started my own, but no longer associated with that industry.
To be honest, young people are very talented, they haven't been moulded into a certain shape or way yet, and I tend to get the feeling they think more out of the box.
That being said, with age comes wisdom, you start to learn more and more, what works, and what doesn't work.
You either have talent, or you don't, sure experience is good. But people evolve in different ways, some faster than others. Even though you're younger than your competition, you still might have more experience, or you just might be 10x better. I've only been turned down once for a fulltime job at Philips, when I was 18. They liked my work but wanted someone older. I could fully understand that, and wasn't too bothered by it. Just go on, stay focused and you'll get very far. Your work and socializing skills are key, not your age.
To be honest, young people are very talented, they haven't been moulded into a certain shape or way yet, and I tend to get the feeling they think more out of the box.
That being said, with age comes wisdom, you start to learn more and more, what works, and what doesn't work.
You either have talent, or you don't, sure experience is good. But people evolve in different ways, some faster than others. Even though you're younger than your competition, you still might have more experience, or you just might be 10x better. I've only been turned down once for a fulltime job at Philips, when I was 18. They liked my work but wanted someone older. I could fully understand that, and wasn't too bothered by it. Just go on, stay focused and you'll get very far. Your work and socializing skills are key, not your age.
I can't agree more with the contents of this article. It's important to abstract age away from how you represent yourself, for a number of reasons.
Age automatically restricts your opportunities. I have gotten a number of serious job offers from reputable companies, and none of them were aware of my age. While a lot of people in the startup industry are not age-biased, I have a feeling that if my age were advertised on my profiles, these opportunities would not have been extended to me. When I asked around for a summer internship this past summer, my boss said he had not realized how old I was, at first, when he extended the offer. I have found that it is much more difficult to prove your worth as an engineer when you are underage and self-taught. This is why you need to work on personal projects, and finish them.
Also, while I have not experienced this firsthand, some people are not as nice as you would like to think. If they realize you are "just a kid", they might feel it appropriate to lowball you or cheat work out of you. It's despicable, but I'm sure it happens.
The advice in the article suggests that you attend conferences. I would generalize this. Network with your local community, as well as the global community that you come in contact with at conferences. Hailing from the wonderful land of Philadelphia, I am an active member and occasional speaker in PhillyCocoa, the Philadelphia CocoaHeads chapter. I also was a member of Venturef0rth this summer, a rising incubator space. I plan to attend a hackathon when I have time (I'm missing one at UPenn as I speak :p ). At these places and more, I have met a slew of awesome people, from whom I have learned innumerable things.
That's not to downplay conferences, either, as an attendee of The Last HOPE, DEFCON 19, Google I/O '12, HOPE9 and others. The thing about conferences is that they do cost money (including travel and lodging), and not everyone can afford to attend them.
And because it's relevant, today I am turning 16.
Age automatically restricts your opportunities. I have gotten a number of serious job offers from reputable companies, and none of them were aware of my age. While a lot of people in the startup industry are not age-biased, I have a feeling that if my age were advertised on my profiles, these opportunities would not have been extended to me. When I asked around for a summer internship this past summer, my boss said he had not realized how old I was, at first, when he extended the offer. I have found that it is much more difficult to prove your worth as an engineer when you are underage and self-taught. This is why you need to work on personal projects, and finish them.
Also, while I have not experienced this firsthand, some people are not as nice as you would like to think. If they realize you are "just a kid", they might feel it appropriate to lowball you or cheat work out of you. It's despicable, but I'm sure it happens.
The advice in the article suggests that you attend conferences. I would generalize this. Network with your local community, as well as the global community that you come in contact with at conferences. Hailing from the wonderful land of Philadelphia, I am an active member and occasional speaker in PhillyCocoa, the Philadelphia CocoaHeads chapter. I also was a member of Venturef0rth this summer, a rising incubator space. I plan to attend a hackathon when I have time (I'm missing one at UPenn as I speak :p ). At these places and more, I have met a slew of awesome people, from whom I have learned innumerable things.
That's not to downplay conferences, either, as an attendee of The Last HOPE, DEFCON 19, Google I/O '12, HOPE9 and others. The thing about conferences is that they do cost money (including travel and lodging), and not everyone can afford to attend them.
And because it's relevant, today I am turning 16.
One important point that hasn't been touched on is the neurological development that comes with age.
It's not until your 20s does one's frontal cortex (or lobes) of the brain fully develop. Until this occurs one physically lacks the ability to control higher-order functioning. This could range from long term planning, motivation, and inhibition towards behavior.
When you're young you're somewhat crazy and brash. This allows one to take chances, push the envelope, and reach breakthroughs.
With that said it works both ways. The youth lack the ability fully reason, plan, and in SOME cases think logically through a problem (in the sense of understanding the repercussions of their actions).
It's not until your 20s does one's frontal cortex (or lobes) of the brain fully develop. Until this occurs one physically lacks the ability to control higher-order functioning. This could range from long term planning, motivation, and inhibition towards behavior.
When you're young you're somewhat crazy and brash. This allows one to take chances, push the envelope, and reach breakthroughs.
With that said it works both ways. The youth lack the ability fully reason, plan, and in SOME cases think logically through a problem (in the sense of understanding the repercussions of their actions).