Lessons In Survival - why elite military forces bounce back faster(newsweek.com)
newsweek.com
Lessons In Survival - why elite military forces bounce back faster
http://www.newsweek.com/id/184156/output/print
5 comments
I'd be interested to read more about how much of the Special Forces difference they're born with and how much you can train.
On the deck, the unconscious sailors are rolled on their sides, and as soon as they revive, an instructor shouts again and again: "Are you gonna quit? Are you gonna quit?" Sailors are given 30 seconds to answer or they're kicked out of the program.
A lot their "training" seem designed to weed out those who lack specific innate traits. From what I understand the goal is to cull most people as soon as possible and then train those who remain which suggests they focus on innate talents rather than testing people after they have been trained. Which IMO is a good idea, because you don't know what you are going to face in the real world.
PS: You see the same idea with a large high school's football camp. The first few days is all about weeding people out based on physical fitness.
A lot their "training" seem designed to weed out those who lack specific innate traits. From what I understand the goal is to cull most people as soon as possible and then train those who remain which suggests they focus on innate talents rather than testing people after they have been trained. Which IMO is a good idea, because you don't know what you are going to face in the real world.
PS: You see the same idea with a large high school's football camp. The first few days is all about weeding people out based on physical fitness.
A lot their "training" seem designed to weed out those who lack specific innate traits
I don't think it's entirely about innate traits. There's a lot of training that occurs before going to some these schools. For example, in the Army you're not eligible to 'try out' for Special Forces until you're an E4 grade (not sure about officers), which may take 1.5 - 3 years to achieve, assuming you enlisted as an E1. Even then a lot of guys spend 2-4 months in special training programs before going and some don't pass until their second or third attempt.
I don't think it's entirely about innate traits. There's a lot of training that occurs before going to some these schools. For example, in the Army you're not eligible to 'try out' for Special Forces until you're an E4 grade (not sure about officers), which may take 1.5 - 3 years to achieve, assuming you enlisted as an E1. Even then a lot of guys spend 2-4 months in special training programs before going and some don't pass until their second or third attempt.
In other words, they're controlling for knowledge and training gaps. All that remains is pure talent, really.
O3 or O2 promotable. So, everyone trying out is very experienced.
unless you get an "18x" contract upon enlistment, at which point you go...
basic...AIST (infantry)...airborne...SFAS (special forces selection)
basic...AIST (infantry)...airborne...SFAS (special forces selection)
How does that work in Ranger battalions? I'd heard you couldn't get promoted there until you had the tab, seems like a bit of a catch 22!
That still doesn't answer the question - people lead different lives up until military training and high school sports.
Personally, I feel I'm better able to handle stress after a significant amount of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and MMA training. This makes me suspect personal experiences make a big difference.
Personally, I feel I'm better able to handle stress after a significant amount of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and MMA training. This makes me suspect personal experiences make a big difference.
Indeed. A lot of this sort of testing is passed or failed before your seventh birthday, when your personality beings to solidify. You just don't know it 'til later.
As a former soldier - light infantry, or about as close to "special" you can get without actually getting the little badge - I'd opine that after a certain bit of selection, you can train everyone up to a sufficient level.
There isn't much to Army "training". Learn the specifics of weapons and kit, and then point and shoot, really. What separates a good soldier from a mediocre soldier is willpower. Good soldiers make the correct decisions more often because they can think clearly over pain, discomfort and stress - exactly what the article says.
SF training put a hyper-focus on this skill. So, to answer you question - pretty much all of it is innate. That has certainly been my experience. Some people are just better at this stuff than others, just like some people are better hockey players than others, even after years of training.
There isn't much to Army "training". Learn the specifics of weapons and kit, and then point and shoot, really. What separates a good soldier from a mediocre soldier is willpower. Good soldiers make the correct decisions more often because they can think clearly over pain, discomfort and stress - exactly what the article says.
SF training put a hyper-focus on this skill. So, to answer you question - pretty much all of it is innate. That has certainly been my experience. Some people are just better at this stuff than others, just like some people are better hockey players than others, even after years of training.
Outliers presents evidence on how hockey players are affected by non-intrinsic factors (their birth month). The excerpt is online somewhere.
I wonder how many false positives and false negatives there are for the monotonic heartbeat test. Could they skip putting the recruits through hell, or do they learn enough from it that it would still be worth it?
It's all about unit cohesion. The psychology of it is well-understood. People are afraid of failing so are reluctant to push their limits and expose themselves to criticism from their peers. By putting everyone through an ordeal together, everyone sees everyone else suffering, that barrier is broken down. The benefits of this type of training go way beyond the military.
Put me with a perfect stranger and give us 80 minutes on the rugby pitch together and it's mind-blowing how fast a deep friendship can form.
Yeah, strip everyone down to the basics, no pretences, no bullshit, and we're all basically the same. Well, that's not true. There are those who are willing to do this and those that aren't.
Not always, although I know where you are coming from. Pretty soon you can find out whether they're someone you can "go over the trenches" with, no matter what size they might look.
Sports both build character and reveal it.
I wonder whether the benefits are for those being trained or those doing the training. It seems to me the greatest trick of waging war is to convince people to put their lives at risk against an enemy that did not originally threaten them. Some people might refer to this phenomena as brain washing.
Actually, the greatest trick of waging war is to convince people to kill other people, and that's done with plain ol' operant conditioning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
Read "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society." The author, Dave Grossman, is an Army Ranger and a Psychology professor at West Point. He lays down an argument that most people have a strong, instinctual resistance to killing. In WWI, only about 20% on the front lines even fired their weapons. That rose during WWII and Korea until during Vietnam, it was closer to 95%. He attributes the change to modern training methods which are basically operant conditioning.
(He also has fascinating interviews with veterans about their experiences. But the book sometimes feels like someone's dissertation, and at the end, he tries to make the same claim with violent media, which I don't think holds. Watching something is very different from doing something.)
Read "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society." The author, Dave Grossman, is an Army Ranger and a Psychology professor at West Point. He lays down an argument that most people have a strong, instinctual resistance to killing. In WWI, only about 20% on the front lines even fired their weapons. That rose during WWII and Korea until during Vietnam, it was closer to 95%. He attributes the change to modern training methods which are basically operant conditioning.
(He also has fascinating interviews with veterans about their experiences. But the book sometimes feels like someone's dissertation, and at the end, he tries to make the same claim with violent media, which I don't think holds. Watching something is very different from doing something.)
It improved with attempts to dehumanise the enemy (Germans -> krauts -> Gooks) and the distance with which you face them (hand-hand in a trench -> carpet bombing of jungle)
It has swung back the other way with soldiers have a live view of the target in a sight/TV picture - the proportion of willing to kill has reduced.
I think it holds to a point. Watching something allows you to think it, and thinking something can take you about half way.
Many people couldn't couldn't surgically cut someone open, too squemish, but after watching it done they could at least think it.
Many people couldn't couldn't surgically cut someone open, too squemish, but after watching it done they could at least think it.
I agree it can help to desensitize, but Grossman was using it to explain the rise in violence during the '90s.
But I think there is a difference to being desensitized to media violence and being desensitized to real violence that happens in front of your face.
But I think there is a difference to being desensitized to media violence and being desensitized to real violence that happens in front of your face.
If modern training methods can be shown to quantitatively effect killing ratios, as he relates, I'm not sure why it is such a stretch to believe that continual bombardment of imagery or role playing (i.e. video games) would not have the same - although perhaps lessor - effect.
I realize this is an uncomfortable theory for many of us who believe we are masters of our environment, but it holds water.
You are right though, there is a difference between media and reality. The problem is that it doesn't manifest until after both situations have occurred. Ergo PTSD.
Post media saturation but pre-real life drama is a very unstable time for individuals, as the likelihood that they will confuse the media outcomes for the real ones is the highest. I think this is essentially Grossman's point, and I don't find it that far fetched.
Your environment affects you, whether you choose to believe it does or not. (Note that this is not to suggest that the same environment affects people in the same way).
I realize this is an uncomfortable theory for many of us who believe we are masters of our environment, but it holds water.
You are right though, there is a difference between media and reality. The problem is that it doesn't manifest until after both situations have occurred. Ergo PTSD.
Post media saturation but pre-real life drama is a very unstable time for individuals, as the likelihood that they will confuse the media outcomes for the real ones is the highest. I think this is essentially Grossman's point, and I don't find it that far fetched.
Your environment affects you, whether you choose to believe it does or not. (Note that this is not to suggest that the same environment affects people in the same way).
The reason I draw the distinction is because modern training methods stress shooting an actual gun in certain circumstances. I think the fact that the training involves the physical act of shooting a real gun is important. This means that the only difference between training and combat is the stress level and what the solder is shooting at.
That's operant conditioning. If you remove a physical gun and replace it with a virtual gun, perhaps some operant conditioning can take place, but I doubt it will be enough to overcome our disinclination to kill another person. (I know the military actually use FPSes for training in some circumstances - but I think it's used more for communication practice than anything else, and it's used in combination with modern training methods.) The reason I stress virtual versus physical is that you want training to be as close to reality to get the desired behavior.
If you remove participant action completely, such as passively watching a movie, then I think you've lost operant conditioning entirely. Grossman spends much of the book arguing that humans' instinct not to kill other people is so large that we need operant conditioning to overcome it. He submits that the untrained combatant will sometimes literally die instead of firing their weapon. He ignores this argument at the end of the book.
That's operant conditioning. If you remove a physical gun and replace it with a virtual gun, perhaps some operant conditioning can take place, but I doubt it will be enough to overcome our disinclination to kill another person. (I know the military actually use FPSes for training in some circumstances - but I think it's used more for communication practice than anything else, and it's used in combination with modern training methods.) The reason I stress virtual versus physical is that you want training to be as close to reality to get the desired behavior.
If you remove participant action completely, such as passively watching a movie, then I think you've lost operant conditioning entirely. Grossman spends much of the book arguing that humans' instinct not to kill other people is so large that we need operant conditioning to overcome it. He submits that the untrained combatant will sometimes literally die instead of firing their weapon. He ignores this argument at the end of the book.
but I doubt it will be enough to overcome our disinclination to kill another person
Clearly it isn't, in most cases. But then again, soldiers don't go around arbitrarily killing people either. The fact that the conditioning exists has little to do with whether or not it is exercised.
I think for certain individuals, simply watching the actions of others is enough to alter behaviour. As such, watching continuous murders may indeed be enough to alter behaviour for a select group of outliers in dramatic ways.
The conditioning norm remains subconscious until summoned, which would mean that for most of us, it would never be used. Extremely stressful situations would of course trigger the reaction - and this would fit with the crazed gunman incidents that seem so prevalent these days (historically, gunmen tended to have military experience, interesting side note).
untrained combatant will sometimes literally die instead of firing their weapon
I think he was using historical information to make this observation. It seems obvious to me however that most modern North Americans are not longer subject to this "limitation". Fighting back pirates is certainly a good supporter of this, and seems to lend some support to his point.
Clearly it isn't, in most cases. But then again, soldiers don't go around arbitrarily killing people either. The fact that the conditioning exists has little to do with whether or not it is exercised.
I think for certain individuals, simply watching the actions of others is enough to alter behaviour. As such, watching continuous murders may indeed be enough to alter behaviour for a select group of outliers in dramatic ways.
The conditioning norm remains subconscious until summoned, which would mean that for most of us, it would never be used. Extremely stressful situations would of course trigger the reaction - and this would fit with the crazed gunman incidents that seem so prevalent these days (historically, gunmen tended to have military experience, interesting side note).
untrained combatant will sometimes literally die instead of firing their weapon
I think he was using historical information to make this observation. It seems obvious to me however that most modern North Americans are not longer subject to this "limitation". Fighting back pirates is certainly a good supporter of this, and seems to lend some support to his point.
Cops, paramedics and firefighters all put their lives at risk going into situations that did not originally threaten them. Yet no-one would describe them as "brainwashed".
There is a certain threshold of dangerous and selfless action that defies ordinary logic. In the cases of direct and unambiguous help to others it is called heroism. In cases where the action causes harm to some parties the definition is less clear. In the worst cases it is referred to as terrorism. Either way the readiness to face mortal danger can be used for both good and evil. Whether it represents brainwashing however is a different question.
dejb, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you haven't actually been exposed to any form of military training, have you?
While you may feel this to be irrelevant, I can assure you that you aren't quite able to grasp the nuances and evolved thinking behind this type of "performance under stress" training unless you have experienced it firsthand. Being an observer isn't good enough.
It's "brainwashing" only in as much as all other forms of teaching are brainwashing. Which is to say that it is not.
While you may feel this to be irrelevant, I can assure you that you aren't quite able to grasp the nuances and evolved thinking behind this type of "performance under stress" training unless you have experienced it firsthand. Being an observer isn't good enough.
It's "brainwashing" only in as much as all other forms of teaching are brainwashing. Which is to say that it is not.
> While you may feel this to be irrelevant
I actually think it is quite relevant. If I'm right then you have been to some extent brainwashed into the thinking that the training is reasonable. Your response makes sense if you had been brainwashed or if you hadn't. Of course this doesn't prove anything either way.
The point is that the proper identification of brainwashing is always going to come from an external observer. To me the process I have heard described of 'breaking someone down and then building them up again' is the definition of brainwashing.
I actually think it is quite relevant. If I'm right then you have been to some extent brainwashed into the thinking that the training is reasonable. Your response makes sense if you had been brainwashed or if you hadn't. Of course this doesn't prove anything either way.
The point is that the proper identification of brainwashing is always going to come from an external observer. To me the process I have heard described of 'breaking someone down and then building them up again' is the definition of brainwashing.
You make a valid point.
I think where we differ is in our definition of what constitutes "brainwashing".
I think where we differ is in our definition of what constitutes "brainwashing".
That makes it sound rather subjective, then.
Not subjective. It boils down more to feel the fear, but do it anyway. Which is the point of stress innoculation in basic training, police academy, the more advanced stuff of special forces, or even SERE.
Grossman's books describe the physiological effects of stress and combat. Some of the responses are also caused by folks not understanding just what has happened to them, and why is their body acting like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_a...
High speed driving tends to drive adrenaline levels way up. Police brutality complaints are much higher in the aftermath of high speed pursuits. Yet the tunnel vision and other responses of that kind of driving also affects non-police drivers. We had an incident here in Denver where an ambulance driver t-boned a light rail train. How the heck could someone not see something that's 15 feet tall and 200 feet long? Adrenaline poisoning will do it to you. And I contend that could have been anyone who did that, as well. It takes "innoculation" to learn how your body behaves in these situations, and to do the "right" thing despite what your body wants to do (which in my case is usually puke and soil myself).
Grossman's books describe the physiological effects of stress and combat. Some of the responses are also caused by folks not understanding just what has happened to them, and why is their body acting like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_a...
High speed driving tends to drive adrenaline levels way up. Police brutality complaints are much higher in the aftermath of high speed pursuits. Yet the tunnel vision and other responses of that kind of driving also affects non-police drivers. We had an incident here in Denver where an ambulance driver t-boned a light rail train. How the heck could someone not see something that's 15 feet tall and 200 feet long? Adrenaline poisoning will do it to you. And I contend that could have been anyone who did that, as well. It takes "innoculation" to learn how your body behaves in these situations, and to do the "right" thing despite what your body wants to do (which in my case is usually puke and soil myself).
Putting recruits through hell is training, not just a selection task.
Training is everything. Having a plan in a bad situation makes all the difference.
As I was reading the article, I couldn't help wondering: Why doesn't everyone have the same traits that the special forces people do? Unless there was some huge downside, I'd expect evolutionary pressure to select for them. But it wasn't until the end of the article that it gives a hint of a disadvantage:
Unfortunately, this metronomic effect is usually associated with early heart disease and even sudden death. Morgan wonders whether the same thing that makes you really good at surviving under high stress may not translate into excellent heart health when you're 50.
Unfortunately, this metronomic effect is usually associated with early heart disease and even sudden death. Morgan wonders whether the same thing that makes you really good at surviving under high stress may not translate into excellent heart health when you're 50.
From an evolutionary standpoint, anything that manifests above 40 has little impact if it gives you better survivability younger. For most of human history you will have already had your children and raised them to independence .
Let's not forget the advantage of having a large number of established elder relatives - they can help raise more kids, share resources, etc.
Good point. Which makes me wonder if there are further disadvantages beyond the one mentioned in the article. Perhaps panic-suppression is actually a disadvantage in most life-or-death situations? Or that it's such a desirable trait in high-risk professions that people with it tend to enter these professions and die young?
Perhaps panic-suppression is actually a disadvantage in most life-or-death situations?
I've done offshore survival training, dive training and worked as a lifeguard and one thing that's very obvious is that what usually kills people who get themselves into a situation (that on paper they're equipped to deal with) is panicking and/or refusal to accept the reality of that situation. Basically I cannot think of a case in which a trained person would benefit from losing control like that.
I've done offshore survival training, dive training and worked as a lifeguard and one thing that's very obvious is that what usually kills people who get themselves into a situation (that on paper they're equipped to deal with) is panicking and/or refusal to accept the reality of that situation. Basically I cannot think of a case in which a trained person would benefit from losing control like that.
That argument would mean that non-reproducing people, particularly homosexuality (if you believe the "genetics" argument), would have been eliminated by now.
Not if they contribute meaningfully to their siblings children's survival. Your argument also assumes that homosexuality is primarily determined by genetics and/or that they didn't father or bear children in spite of their orientation.
(Btw - this is why i like HN. Trying to understand life, the universe and everything in practical terms.)
Hmmm... yes, I wonder how much you can train stress resistance/ resilience and how much is nature-given. I'm probably more of a sensitive type person, but through ongoing training I've got myself to be able to endure lots of pain and stress through willpower (well, it's more like I'm more numb and less receptive than I used to be): doing martial arts since I was 6, resisting groups in social situations and insisting on what I think is right (braking peer pressure), occasionally engaging in physical fights (when I was younger), and again various sports activities like long distance running, skateboarding, mountainbiking, hiking etc. - IMHO it comes down to facing fear and pain on an ongoing basis: NO FEAR. lol.
On another note, this is exactly why geeks are not in charge in most corporations. Because they are not in any way as well trained as your average jock to fight back against stress and pain. At least geeks can learn to live with this inherent weakness and be aware of it.
Hmmm... yes, I wonder how much you can train stress resistance/ resilience and how much is nature-given. I'm probably more of a sensitive type person, but through ongoing training I've got myself to be able to endure lots of pain and stress through willpower (well, it's more like I'm more numb and less receptive than I used to be): doing martial arts since I was 6, resisting groups in social situations and insisting on what I think is right (braking peer pressure), occasionally engaging in physical fights (when I was younger), and again various sports activities like long distance running, skateboarding, mountainbiking, hiking etc. - IMHO it comes down to facing fear and pain on an ongoing basis: NO FEAR. lol.
On another note, this is exactly why geeks are not in charge in most corporations. Because they are not in any way as well trained as your average jock to fight back against stress and pain. At least geeks can learn to live with this inherent weakness and be aware of it.
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