Eek, A Male(online.wsj.com)
online.wsj.com
Eek, A Male
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html
21 comments
I spent several years working with elementary-aged kids in our church. For one whole year, it was me and another dad with a class of a dozen or so 5 year olds. (We're all background-checked, for what little that's worth. We also have child protection guidelines to follow - foremost of which is to never be alone with a kid and no other adult.)
It was amazing to see the reactions of moms dropping off their kids when they realized it was just us. Only once did I get asked "is there going to be a mom here with you?" but I know it was in a lot of their minds. But I never had one refuse to leave their kid with us. Over the years I've had plenty of moms eventually tell me how glad they were to see men working with kids.
I did get a chance for 2 years to run more "boy-friendly" activities at church. We did mock camp-outs, blanket forts, went outside for classes whenever the weather and sunlight allowed, and even had campfires outside during what otherwise would have been time spent sitting around a table trying to pay attention. Boys don't work well indoors trying to sit still and pay attention. They really do absorb more if they're outside and their hands are busy.
I even got to work with a special-needs girl that was horribly abused by her birth parents. (I'd happily beat her birth parents within an inch of their lives and worse if I ever met them.) In two years she went from screaming fits if an adult even accidently touched her arm to the point that she'd walk up and hug me. I was honored to be a small part of her recovery.
It was amazing to see the reactions of moms dropping off their kids when they realized it was just us. Only once did I get asked "is there going to be a mom here with you?" but I know it was in a lot of their minds. But I never had one refuse to leave their kid with us. Over the years I've had plenty of moms eventually tell me how glad they were to see men working with kids.
I did get a chance for 2 years to run more "boy-friendly" activities at church. We did mock camp-outs, blanket forts, went outside for classes whenever the weather and sunlight allowed, and even had campfires outside during what otherwise would have been time spent sitting around a table trying to pay attention. Boys don't work well indoors trying to sit still and pay attention. They really do absorb more if they're outside and their hands are busy.
I even got to work with a special-needs girl that was horribly abused by her birth parents. (I'd happily beat her birth parents within an inch of their lives and worse if I ever met them.) In two years she went from screaming fits if an adult even accidently touched her arm to the point that she'd walk up and hug me. I was honored to be a small part of her recovery.
The Child Protection Policy at my church requires a male and female leader in every situation.
Its a shame that this is where our society is going and that being 'beyond reproach' means remaining one step ahead.
Its a shame that this is where our society is going and that being 'beyond reproach' means remaining one step ahead.
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Additionally, it's considered OK to slam men in media, where it isn't right to do it to women.
The next time you see a commercial that makes use of gender roles, swap the genders and see if the commercial would still be suitable. Most don't hold up to this scrutiny.
The next time you see a commercial that makes use of gender roles, swap the genders and see if the commercial would still be suitable. Most don't hold up to this scrutiny.
I agree that the phenomenon is undeniable. Commercial after commercial shows a bumbling, silly, or wrongheaded male creating a problem that an eye-rolling female armed with the advertised product is able to solve.
I used to find this mildly annoying. I thought that surely our society is sufficiently advanced that we might accept roughly equal occurrences of each gender as the goats in these commercials without it seeming disparaging to women.
But thinking this made me realize: having men as the goats is not disparaging to men, either. Now I choose to attribute the phenomenon to the conventional wisdom that men are generally less self-conscious than women. I believe there is some anecdotal evidence for this but have no idea whether it is actually true. What I do believe is that marketers perceive this to be the case and making commercials that make men look stupid will alienate fewer people in the audience, since humiliating somebody that a male viewer identifies with is, theoretically, less disquieting.
The same applies to sitcoms and movies.
I used to find this mildly annoying. I thought that surely our society is sufficiently advanced that we might accept roughly equal occurrences of each gender as the goats in these commercials without it seeming disparaging to women.
But thinking this made me realize: having men as the goats is not disparaging to men, either. Now I choose to attribute the phenomenon to the conventional wisdom that men are generally less self-conscious than women. I believe there is some anecdotal evidence for this but have no idea whether it is actually true. What I do believe is that marketers perceive this to be the case and making commercials that make men look stupid will alienate fewer people in the audience, since humiliating somebody that a male viewer identifies with is, theoretically, less disquieting.
The same applies to sitcoms and movies.
The ads and sitcoms aren't targetting men. That's why they don't care if you're annoyed.
The commercials say a lot more about women than they do about men.
Watching the commercials, it's hard to deny that a lot of women must like feeling superior to men, and that feeling will eventually cause them to buy a product.
Why this patronizing and sexist tactic works on anyone but a 13-year-old girl is a mystery to me, but it does. I guess it's the female equivalent of the dumb college buddy movie and beer commerical.
The commercials say a lot more about women than they do about men.
Watching the commercials, it's hard to deny that a lot of women must like feeling superior to men, and that feeling will eventually cause them to buy a product.
Why this patronizing and sexist tactic works on anyone but a 13-year-old girl is a mystery to me, but it does. I guess it's the female equivalent of the dumb college buddy movie and beer commerical.
Ads that target men are a lot worse, IMO, than ads that target women. Have you ever seen a commercial for GoDaddy.com? They typically involve lots of blonde women with huge tits doing vaguely sexual things. The same goes for ads for Bud Light and most sports.
Ads targeted to men are just as, if not more, patronizing and sexist. One wouldn't think they would work on males older than 13 years old, but they apparently do.
Ads targeted to men are just as, if not more, patronizing and sexist. One wouldn't think they would work on males older than 13 years old, but they apparently do.
It gets worse if you're a gay male. Then you either get patronizing and clueless "Straight" advertisers that try to appeal to stereotypes, OR you get patronizing and embarrassing "Gay" advertisers deciding that what you need is men. Buff, BUFF men.
Fuck off. Maybe it's just that advertising is mostly patronizing. Sad for their industry, really... Why not learn how to relate to people?
Fuck off. Maybe it's just that advertising is mostly patronizing. Sad for their industry, really... Why not learn how to relate to people?
I've noticed four avenues marketers usually take and they're all pretty demeaning.
Selling to women? -Men are morons who can't understand this product like you can. -These women are better than you because they consume this product
Selling to men? -Women are items to be acquired through the use of this product. -These men are better than you because they use this product (or in the case of the Miller Light ad, "Here's what you look like when you don't drink Miller Light.")
Selling to women? -Men are morons who can't understand this product like you can. -These women are better than you because they consume this product
Selling to men? -Women are items to be acquired through the use of this product. -These men are better than you because they use this product (or in the case of the Miller Light ad, "Here's what you look like when you don't drink Miller Light.")
I tried that same strategy with sitcoms for a while, but they all just turned into "I Love Lucy"
A friend of mine worked in the day care centre at my old (Western-European) school (ages 6--10 years), and he told me that, for guys, letting children sit on your lap was strictly verboten.
Pardon my French, but what the fuck has the world come to? It really makes me sad how little solidarity there is in today's world where people become more insulated and afraid of each other for no rational reason. I love being very physical when I'm social, regardless of how well I know some people, and I am seriously worried about the day that the paedophilia thought police (PTPD) knocks on my door.
- - -
It boggles my mind how so many things are going backwards as time moves forwards, even though you'd think the opposite would happen. In ten years' time, will Santa Claus be abhorred as a paedophile, or will Coca Cola have to cave to public pressure and feature Ms Claus instead, so children can still sit in the Christmas and share their adorable, naïve wishes?
If we ever get an equivalent to Mad Men that takes place in the 10s, I'm sure people will balk at things like these and wonder what the hell we were thinking. Or maybe things will have become much worse by then.
Pardon my French, but what the fuck has the world come to? It really makes me sad how little solidarity there is in today's world where people become more insulated and afraid of each other for no rational reason. I love being very physical when I'm social, regardless of how well I know some people, and I am seriously worried about the day that the paedophilia thought police (PTPD) knocks on my door.
- - -
It boggles my mind how so many things are going backwards as time moves forwards, even though you'd think the opposite would happen. In ten years' time, will Santa Claus be abhorred as a paedophile, or will Coca Cola have to cave to public pressure and feature Ms Claus instead, so children can still sit in the Christmas and share their adorable, naïve wishes?
If we ever get an equivalent to Mad Men that takes place in the 10s, I'm sure people will balk at things like these and wonder what the hell we were thinking. Or maybe things will have become much worse by then.
If I had to choose one of the following, to improve society:
Great to finally see an article like this one.
a). More women in tech
b). More men in childcare/teaching
Great to finally see an article like this one.
Does it really make any difference? I grew up in an anachronistic small town and had at least 50% male teachers from 1st grade on up. I can't say I paid attention to any of my teachers, male or female. If anything, I thought the male teachers were much bigger idiots and losers than the female teachers. In no way did I view them as "role models."
Suppose you are black kid in the inner city and none of your teachers are black, cos they might be criminals or a muslim kid and none of your teachers are brown (terrorists) - you might have some doubts about whether you can be a teacher or whether school is for you.
It could make a difference. If fewer women are interested in technical/scientific fields, and we have all or predominately female teachers, the education (and enthusiasm) in technical fields will be lacking. There's no reason that trend in gender interests cannot change but at the present there is an imbalance.
I think a lot of it is subconsciously consumed. Also if you were lucky to have a good male role model at home - father/older siblings, then perhaps male teachers weren't important to you.
There's a lot of evidence to suggest that boys learn best when taught by men, and girls learn best when taught by women. Male and female brains are very different, and we think differently about problems.
So if your school has 80% women teachers, then the girls are going to do better on average than the boys in that school, which is concerning.
There's a lot of evidence to suggest that boys learn best when taught by men, and girls learn best when taught by women. Male and female brains are very different, and we think differently about problems.
So if your school has 80% women teachers, then the girls are going to do better on average than the boys in that school, which is concerning.
Well, we don't need to choose.
In fact, it seems like each would support the other.
In fact, it seems like each would support the other.
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More men are not needed in childcare/teaching because women are naturally - from birth - better at the type of empathy and communication that is required in those fields.
It's the same reason that women excel in technology management roles (while generally being inferior in technical roles because of inadequate training or aptitude, exceptional cases like Marissa Mayer excepted).
Even a woman with average communication/empathy skills relative to other women (emphasis on 'empathy' - because this is what really separates men from women in communication) is often far better at management/planning than 99.99% of male technologists.
It's the same reason that women excel in technology management roles (while generally being inferior in technical roles because of inadequate training or aptitude, exceptional cases like Marissa Mayer excepted).
Even a woman with average communication/empathy skills relative to other women (emphasis on 'empathy' - because this is what really separates men from women in communication) is often far better at management/planning than 99.99% of male technologists.
In the 'olden' days, we used to have discipline in schools. So male teachers were extremely useful to have. Bad pupils used to get told off, disciplined, and snapped into line.
Now, naughty kids get 'diagnosed' and given a cool label, get a 'teachers assistant' assigned to them - effectively praised for being naughty.
I agree with your point about women excelling at empathy and communication, but I'd say the movement away from male teachers has also been due to the removal of discipline in schools, and a movement toward empathising with bad behavior rather than correcting it.
Now, naughty kids get 'diagnosed' and given a cool label, get a 'teachers assistant' assigned to them - effectively praised for being naughty.
I agree with your point about women excelling at empathy and communication, but I'd say the movement away from male teachers has also been due to the removal of discipline in schools, and a movement toward empathising with bad behavior rather than correcting it.
I disagree that men are better at disciplining children than women are.
I'm not saying always, but certainly at the schools I went to, the female teachers were by and large softer, and would let you get away with more.
I think naturally, when faced with bad behavior women will try to empathize and reason, whereas men will tend to punish/kick into line.
I think naturally, when faced with bad behavior women will try to empathize and reason, whereas men will tend to punish/kick into line.
When I was a kid of 9 and in school, going into my first class with a male teacher, I had the same theory. It turned out I was wrong, though. My least favorite classes from then on out were all taught by women. It was like women had to be extra bitchy to maintain distance or something.
You haven't met my mother.
"More men are not needed in childcare/teaching because women are naturally - from birth - better at the type of empathy and communication that is required in those fields."
If you empathise with someone, it is harder to cause them discomfort because it causes you discomfort also. Thus, someone with lesser empathy would be better at discipling children.
"I disagree that men are better at disciplining children than women are."
You can't have it both ways, Sarkozy. Which is it?
If you empathise with someone, it is harder to cause them discomfort because it causes you discomfort also. Thus, someone with lesser empathy would be better at discipling children.
"I disagree that men are better at disciplining children than women are."
You can't have it both ways, Sarkozy. Which is it?
Are you saying women are, on average more empathethic/ have better communication skills, or women are innately 'guaranteed' to be better in these areas?
Any man with the skills needed to perform well in childcare(especially) and teaching jobs are discouraged from taking those jobs, as any woman would 'naturally' be better in such roles (not to mention the significant 'pedo scare' barrier). This is the sort of latent discrimination that forces people away from the jobs they are best suited to.
Any man with the skills needed to perform well in childcare(especially) and teaching jobs are discouraged from taking those jobs, as any woman would 'naturally' be better in such roles (not to mention the significant 'pedo scare' barrier). This is the sort of latent discrimination that forces people away from the jobs they are best suited to.
That's silly. Most men will naturally also be able to lift heavy weights. That's not to say women aren't allowed to work in jobs where you need to lift big weights, but it'll be more natural for most men.
The sexes have obvious physical differences, as well as obvious mental differences. To deny either of them is stupid.
The sexes have obvious physical differences, as well as obvious mental differences. To deny either of them is stupid.
But the question is not about whether some men are suited to the job. It's about who is on average more suited to a particular type of job. It is well established scientifically that women are - generally speaking - so I would prefer to see more women taking roles that are suited to their innate capacities whether it be in technology management, education or any other role that takes advantage of their innate higher capacities in empathic communication.
I guess that's why most of the successful tech CEOs are female.
You're defining 'successful' in monetary terms while I'm more concerned with the psychological health of the working environment.
I'm saying women are better managers because they are less prone to the types of socially tone-deaf interpersonal problems you see lampooned in Dilbert.
In other words, if I had to choose between a male manager who could create a succesful company versus a female manager who knew how to foster a harmonious working environment, I would choose the harmonious working environment over monetary "success" every time.
In the end, what does it matter to me if the company I work for is financially successful or not? On the other hand, if my manager is able to help create an environment that is more pleasant for every involved, that's something I'm interested in and that's where I think women in general are more naturally capable than men.
I'm saying women are better managers because they are less prone to the types of socially tone-deaf interpersonal problems you see lampooned in Dilbert.
In other words, if I had to choose between a male manager who could create a succesful company versus a female manager who knew how to foster a harmonious working environment, I would choose the harmonious working environment over monetary "success" every time.
In the end, what does it matter to me if the company I work for is financially successful or not? On the other hand, if my manager is able to help create an environment that is more pleasant for every involved, that's something I'm interested in and that's where I think women in general are more naturally capable than men.
Why yes, business success is defined in monetary terms. Good CEO brings good money to the company.
But to bring it back to the subject, my son's kindergarten was 1/2 staffed by males (we're in Norway). He loved every minute of it.
But to bring it back to the subject, my son's kindergarten was 1/2 staffed by males (we're in Norway). He loved every minute of it.
Downvote the heretic!
Unpopular opinions will not be tolerated!
Oh, HN, you never fail to disappoint.
Unpopular opinions will not be tolerated!
Oh, HN, you never fail to disappoint.
Public shaming is an appropriate response to prejudice. It's how we get from "that's common sense" to "does anyone really think that?"
But perhaps not an appropriate response to scientific fact. Countless psychological studies have documented women's higher innate capacities for communication and empathy. So if you disagree on that fact, you are simply misinformed. What I'm saying might not be popular and might even sound prejudicial but there is no debating the innate genetic differences between men and women.
Really? Let's debate. Do you have a study documenting the case of a statistically significant number of children raised in an environment where every single other person isn't constantly treating them like they should behave a particular way because of their genitals? Because otherwise you're just redemonstrating the already well-documented fact that children tend to behave the way they are expected to behave, which doesn't tell us anything useful about genetics.
Okay, that's a cheap shot. I know you don't have any such study. Tell you what, I'll settle for any study demonstrating that the divergence between the mean of all women and the mean of all men is greater than the divergence between individuals of either gender.
In any metric.
Okay, that's a cheap shot. I know you don't have any such study. Tell you what, I'll settle for any study demonstrating that the divergence between the mean of all women and the mean of all men is greater than the divergence between individuals of either gender.
In any metric.
As far as I can tell, sarkozy doesn't have a study proving his point (or proving your straw-man version of his point) and you don't have a study proving yours.
Now, why is it that you are entitled to an opinion and he is not?
Now, why is it that you are entitled to an opinion and he is not?
As far as I can tell, the person bringing up "countless psychological studies" has a responsibility to provide their own evidence.
I have no problem with other people having opinions. I likewise have no problem with publicly disapproving of opinions which I think are socially harmful.
I don't have any illusions about changing a bigot's mind, but I can hope that others will see my disapproval and think that bigotry is just that much less cool.
I have no problem with other people having opinions. I likewise have no problem with publicly disapproving of opinions which I think are socially harmful.
I don't have any illusions about changing a bigot's mind, but I can hope that others will see my disapproval and think that bigotry is just that much less cool.
I'm intrigued by your willingness to use and to admit to using the metric "socially harmful" (as opposed to, say, "correct") to judge an opinion.
For example, what would you do if your own opinion (that is, your honest best assessment of what the truth actually was) was an opinion you judged to be socially harmful? Would you continue to hold the opinion, but try to avoid mentioning it? Would you publicly lie about your opinion? Would you express the opinion and expect public disapproval? Would you intentionally try to change your own opinion somehow?
For example, what would you do if your own opinion (that is, your honest best assessment of what the truth actually was) was an opinion you judged to be socially harmful? Would you continue to hold the opinion, but try to avoid mentioning it? Would you publicly lie about your opinion? Would you express the opinion and expect public disapproval? Would you intentionally try to change your own opinion somehow?
Ooh, that's a fascinating question. I'm not completely sure how to respond, since I think the two are tied together— I use a more or less evidence-based definition of harm.
I mean, looking at it logically, thinking that all women want to have children wouldn't be prejudiced if all women actually did want to have children. Would it still be wrong to say so? I can't see how.
I guess if my assessment of the facts were greatly opposed to my values it'd probably imply some more significant cognitive dissonance.
I mean, looking at it logically, thinking that all women want to have children wouldn't be prejudiced if all women actually did want to have children. Would it still be wrong to say so? I can't see how.
I guess if my assessment of the facts were greatly opposed to my values it'd probably imply some more significant cognitive dissonance.
Why are you calling me a bigot? Is it possible you could find a less offensive way of engaging in this discussion? I would appreciate it. I also disagree with you, after all, but have not resorted to calling you names.
I apologize— I didn't mean to call you a bigot personally, so although I do feel that sex prejudice is a very important and undervalued issue in our culture, I'll admit it was a poor choice of words.
I was merely trying to elucidate the broader point that shaming can be appropriate in the case of "differences of opinion"— after all, bigotry is just the extremity of the belief that one's personal prejudice is well-grounded in fact.
Of course I appreciate that you're willing to discuss this civilly, and I hope you'll forgive the hyperbole.
I was merely trying to elucidate the broader point that shaming can be appropriate in the case of "differences of opinion"— after all, bigotry is just the extremity of the belief that one's personal prejudice is well-grounded in fact.
Of course I appreciate that you're willing to discuss this civilly, and I hope you'll forgive the hyperbole.
Apology accepted. It's been an enjoyable discussion and I appreciate that you feel strongly about the issue.
Down below I posted a study below backing up my point but I will re-post it here in case you haven't seen it.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/abs/nature04...
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/abs/nature04...
> like they should behave a particular way because of their genitals?
Come on. There are countless studies that show the biological differences between the sexes and the way their brains work. It's not rocket science.
If you believe in evolution, surely you believe that over time, the female and male brains have developed for different functions. I've never understood why people disbelieve this and try to pretend that the sexes are identical.
Come on. There are countless studies that show the biological differences between the sexes and the way their brains work. It's not rocket science.
If you believe in evolution, surely you believe that over time, the female and male brains have developed for different functions. I've never understood why people disbelieve this and try to pretend that the sexes are identical.
I'm discussing one such study in a sibling thread. I'd be happy to do the same here if you have one you feel is persuasive.
Show me a study that proves that men and women think in exactly the same ways and that there are no biological differences in their programming.
I really can't understand how anyone who accepts evolution (Surely most people), but doesn't accept the idea that perhaps the female and male minds have evolved and optimized to different things.
Given that we have obvious and numerous physical differences, it seems terribly unlikely that we have no mental differences. Especially given that physically and internally the sexes brains differ quite a lot (size, weight, number of neurons etc).
For example:
I think that if you disagree with the above, there's no point continuing. It'd be like trying to argue with someone who denies evolution.
I completely get that we should not discriminate UNFAIRLY based on any attribute of anyone. But to deny obvious differences that clearly exist is just silly.
I really can't understand how anyone who accepts evolution (Surely most people), but doesn't accept the idea that perhaps the female and male minds have evolved and optimized to different things.
Given that we have obvious and numerous physical differences, it seems terribly unlikely that we have no mental differences. Especially given that physically and internally the sexes brains differ quite a lot (size, weight, number of neurons etc).
For example:
Number of neocortical neurons (females) = 19.3 billion
(Pakkenberg, B., Pelvig, D., Marner,L., Bundgaard, M.J.,
Gundersen, H.J.G., Nyengaard, J.R. and Regeur, L. Aging
and the human neocortex. Exp. Gerontology, 38:95-99, 2003
and Pakkenberg, B. and Gundersen, H.J.G. Neocortical
neuron number in humans: effect of sex and age. J. Comp.
Neurology, 384:312-320, 1997.)
Number of neocortical neurons (males) = 22.8 billion
(Pakkenberg et al., 1997; 2003)
I think that if you disagree with the above, there's no point continuing. It'd be like trying to argue with someone who denies evolution.
I completely get that we should not discriminate UNFAIRLY based on any attribute of anyone. But to deny obvious differences that clearly exist is just silly.
Show me a study that proves that men and women think in exactly the same ways and that there are no biological differences in their programming.
"The following specific differences in behavior are attributable to biological differences between male and female: _____" is a rather different claim from "There exist biological differences between male and female." I believe the former claim is the one being challenged. Disproof of the latter claim, while sufficient to disprove the former, is not strictly necessary.
"The following specific differences in behavior are attributable to biological differences between male and female: _____" is a rather different claim from "There exist biological differences between male and female." I believe the former claim is the one being challenged. Disproof of the latter claim, while sufficient to disprove the former, is not strictly necessary.
Okay, again, you said there were studies. That means you have to find them, not me.
Google is your friend. I'm not about to spoon feed you common sense, just like I can't be bothered to find studies that show the earth isn't flat right now.
And if you're serious, you have to respond to all my other points. For example:
Is it racist to say most basketball players are black due to them being on average taller? Or maybe you think their extra height is caused by their environment :/
And if you're serious, you have to respond to all my other points. For example:
Do you believe that evolution exists
Do you accept that women are physically different to men
Do you accept that womens brains are different to mens
Is it racist to say most basketball players are black due to them being on average taller? Or maybe you think their extra height is caused by their environment :/
Your world may in fact be flat: http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/users/spence/Feng,%20Spence,%20...
Since you mentioned spatial awareness, you'll probably like this one. Having both groups play Medal of Honor for only 10 hours total narrowed the spatial gender gap into nonsignificance, with women benefitting much more than men. The benefits were still visible months later, without any instruction to continue playing.
Considering the wildly different toys and games we encourage boys and girls to play from infancy through adolescence, to say that this calls the idea that the spatial gender gap is genetic into question is quite an understatement.
So, uh... got any evidence that it is?
Since you mentioned spatial awareness, you'll probably like this one. Having both groups play Medal of Honor for only 10 hours total narrowed the spatial gender gap into nonsignificance, with women benefitting much more than men. The benefits were still visible months later, without any instruction to continue playing.
Considering the wildly different toys and games we encourage boys and girls to play from infancy through adolescence, to say that this calls the idea that the spatial gender gap is genetic into question is quite an understatement.
So, uh... got any evidence that it is?
Height?
You'd be forgiven for thinking this is a cheap shot, but nope— Wikipedia lists the difference in mean height for Americans as about 5" (~5'10" for men, ~5'5" for women). If you get three guys together in a room, you've probably already got more variation than that.
The general point here is that there is much, much more overlap between the sexes than there is difference between them. That's why although you certainly can make interesting statistical inferences about populations, applying the same statistics on an individual level (this person is a woman, she's probably [whatever]) is very likely to be false and is equivalent to blind prejudice.
The general point here is that there is much, much more overlap between the sexes than there is difference between them. That's why although you certainly can make interesting statistical inferences about populations, applying the same statistics on an individual level (this person is a woman, she's probably [whatever]) is very likely to be false and is equivalent to blind prejudice.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr010.pdf
Look at page 11. 19 year old women in the 90th percentile are still shorter than 19 year old men in the 50th percentile. Now, while I was never very good at statistics, I'm pretty sure if we had a running bet over who was taller in any random male/female pairing, I would drain your bank account dry.
Look at page 11. 19 year old women in the 90th percentile are still shorter than 19 year old men in the 50th percentile. Now, while I was never very good at statistics, I'm pretty sure if we had a running bet over who was taller in any random male/female pairing, I would drain your bank account dry.
Let's start with this one:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/abs/nature04...
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/abs/nature04...
What is that supposed to show?
It's studying adults, so it can't and of course doesn't make any claims about genetics like you're trying to.
I can only find one place with any information about individuals (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/fig_tab/natu...), but according to that one graph the difference among all men is more than twice the difference between the average of all men and the average of all women. Even the cultural implication isn't valuable for making statements about individuals.
Doesn't really look like it answers either of my points.
It's studying adults, so it can't and of course doesn't make any claims about genetics like you're trying to.
I can only find one place with any information about individuals (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/fig_tab/natu...), but according to that one graph the difference among all men is more than twice the difference between the average of all men and the average of all women. Even the cultural implication isn't valuable for making statements about individuals.
Doesn't really look like it answers either of my points.
It's one of many studies that demonstrate empirically that women are more empathic than men. My assumption is that the difference relates to genetics but what matters is that there is an observable difference that will have an impact in the real world - especially in the workplace - which is what this discussion is about.
Found the supplemental PDF: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7075/extref/natur...
The second page has a graph of individuals by "empathic concern" (ignoring the brain activity axis, which is what the study is actually demonstrating...)
Note that although women, on average, have higher scores than men (a mean difference of 2 on a scale of 1-20), almost half of the men have scores higher than the female average, and a quarter of the women have scores lower than the male average.
In more intuitive terms, out of this sample of 16 men and 16 women, the 7 most empathic men were more empathic than the 8 least empathic women. If you were trying to guess how empathic someone you meet is based on their sex, you would do slightly better than just flipping a coin. From this you're getting that "women are more empathic"?
Or are you using a slight statistical association to rationalize your cultural prejudice?
The second page has a graph of individuals by "empathic concern" (ignoring the brain activity axis, which is what the study is actually demonstrating...)
Note that although women, on average, have higher scores than men (a mean difference of 2 on a scale of 1-20), almost half of the men have scores higher than the female average, and a quarter of the women have scores lower than the male average.
In more intuitive terms, out of this sample of 16 men and 16 women, the 7 most empathic men were more empathic than the 8 least empathic women. If you were trying to guess how empathic someone you meet is based on their sex, you would do slightly better than just flipping a coin. From this you're getting that "women are more empathic"?
Or are you using a slight statistical association to rationalize your cultural prejudice?
The study indicates women, on average, have higher empathy scores than men. But other studies have demonstrated similar results. Such as this one:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r2k31831780w417w/
On the "Empathy Quotient" test, the average female score is 47 while for males it is 42.
So, no, I'm not using "a slight statistical association to rationalize" either (a) "a cultural prejudice" or (b) "bigotry" (which you unfairly accused me of in an earlier comment). I could just as easily accuse you of denying the weight of the scientific evidence because of misogyny but that would be silly. The fact is, there is room here for reasonable debate and your attempt to paint this issue in black and white is unjustified.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r2k31831780w417w/
On the "Empathy Quotient" test, the average female score is 47 while for males it is 42.
So, no, I'm not using "a slight statistical association to rationalize" either (a) "a cultural prejudice" or (b) "bigotry" (which you unfairly accused me of in an earlier comment). I could just as easily accuse you of denying the weight of the scientific evidence because of misogyny but that would be silly. The fact is, there is room here for reasonable debate and your attempt to paint this issue in black and white is unjustified.
I don't think you see my point here. You can't use statistics to judge individuals.
If that study were a hiring situation and you figured that, since "women are more empathic than men", you should only consider the female applicants, you would be tossing out nearly as many qualified applicants as you'd be keeping. It's just not a useful thing to say based on that data.
When you add in the fact that saying "women are more empathic than men" contributes to the broader social condition that empathy is encouraged in women and discouraged in men, and that mean women get a free pass because they're women and caring men can't get a job teaching children because they're men, it becomes a positively damaging thing to say.
And what do you get out of it?
If that study were a hiring situation and you figured that, since "women are more empathic than men", you should only consider the female applicants, you would be tossing out nearly as many qualified applicants as you'd be keeping. It's just not a useful thing to say based on that data.
When you add in the fact that saying "women are more empathic than men" contributes to the broader social condition that empathy is encouraged in women and discouraged in men, and that mean women get a free pass because they're women and caring men can't get a job teaching children because they're men, it becomes a positively damaging thing to say.
And what do you get out of it?
Downvoting is not shaming. Comments calling the poster out as being an idiot, pointing out his fallacies, etc would have qualified as shaming.
I have to admit I'd go the complete opposite. I do know there are great male teachers, but in environments where the male teacher might be alone with children I am hesitant. The data bears this out, as does personal experience.
With that said male coaches or piano teachers or tutors I have no problem with, since those generally take place in plainsight of parents.
I know that really sucks for the good ones, and most are. But there are enough bad ones that the risk seems too great.
With that said male coaches or piano teachers or tutors I have no problem with, since those generally take place in plainsight of parents.
I know that really sucks for the good ones, and most are. But there are enough bad ones that the risk seems too great.
Two immediate thoughts:
1) Any similar argument about women and another profession would instantly be met with cries of sexism.
2) This is a great example of the types of unsubstantiated mass hysteria that seem to be more and more common. I find it really depressing, not least of which because I can't think of a solution.
1) Any similar argument about women and another profession would instantly be met with cries of sexism.
2) This is a great example of the types of unsubstantiated mass hysteria that seem to be more and more common. I find it really depressing, not least of which because I can't think of a solution.
There are few other professions that result in a baby being sexually abused. I'm more than willing to bend over backwards to give someone a chance writing code, fixing plumbing, making clothing, painting a room. Some things I'm less willing to do.
With that said, its a great opportunity for people who don't mind male daycare teachers to really get top quality care for less money. I think you'd be foolish not to exploit this arbitrage opportunity.
With that said, its a great opportunity for people who don't mind male daycare teachers to really get top quality care for less money. I think you'd be foolish not to exploit this arbitrage opportunity.
This is what I mean by hysteria. Actual odds of a child being molested by a male teacher/caregiver? Female teacher/caregiver? Family member or family friend of either gender?
Regardless of numbers or justification, you're also accepting a form of discrimination that would be much less acceptable for any other situation. Hell, even "I would never get a gay babysitter" would likely provoke more outrage.
The worst part is that I completely understand your argument. When it comes to our children, all bets are off - forget statistics and numbers, if your kid gets hurt and you feel you could have prevented it, no matter how unlikely the event, you'll never forgive yourself for it. That's normal, it's natural - it's also likely to lead to completely irrational behavior, which can easily grow into hysteria. That's what bothers me the most - that in a way it's normal.
Regardless of numbers or justification, you're also accepting a form of discrimination that would be much less acceptable for any other situation. Hell, even "I would never get a gay babysitter" would likely provoke more outrage.
The worst part is that I completely understand your argument. When it comes to our children, all bets are off - forget statistics and numbers, if your kid gets hurt and you feel you could have prevented it, no matter how unlikely the event, you'll never forgive yourself for it. That's normal, it's natural - it's also likely to lead to completely irrational behavior, which can easily grow into hysteria. That's what bothers me the most - that in a way it's normal.
I think the hysteria would be far far less if the media didn't sensationalize and completely over-blow the rare instances of abuse that do happen.
The media has such a ridiculously lopsided view of risk, but the general public buy it. They hop in their car to drive to the shop, leave their kids with that weird uncle without a second thought.
But because of media induced hysteria, worry about getting on a plane or leaving their kids with a male nursery assistant.
I'd place the blame firmly with the media, rather than with human nature.
The media has such a ridiculously lopsided view of risk, but the general public buy it. They hop in their car to drive to the shop, leave their kids with that weird uncle without a second thought.
But because of media induced hysteria, worry about getting on a plane or leaving their kids with a male nursery assistant.
I'd place the blame firmly with the media, rather than with human nature.
When it comes to our children, all bets are off - forget statistics and numbers, if your kid gets hurt and you feel you could have prevented it, no matter how unlikely the event, you'll never forgive yourself for it.
This is how junk science gets peddled. Instead of thinking logically when presented with evidence that doesn't make sense scammers rely on base instincts even though we know its not true.
For example, how many people were lead to believe that vaccines caused autism? Even when the junk science number were statistically small, and eventually found to be false, parents just assume their kids would hit the unlucky lottery and get autism.
The worst thing is the US invented the 24-hour news channel and they have to fill a 24hour slot so they'll pump out whatever junk they can find. This is what Michael Moore was getting at in Bowling for Columbine. Guns aren't bad, people with guns aren't bad, the constant beat of paranoid, locked and loaded, TV viewers is the problem. People die because they feel like they are at general quarters everyday of their lives.
This is how junk science gets peddled. Instead of thinking logically when presented with evidence that doesn't make sense scammers rely on base instincts even though we know its not true.
For example, how many people were lead to believe that vaccines caused autism? Even when the junk science number were statistically small, and eventually found to be false, parents just assume their kids would hit the unlucky lottery and get autism.
The worst thing is the US invented the 24-hour news channel and they have to fill a 24hour slot so they'll pump out whatever junk they can find. This is what Michael Moore was getting at in Bowling for Columbine. Guns aren't bad, people with guns aren't bad, the constant beat of paranoid, locked and loaded, TV viewers is the problem. People die because they feel like they are at general quarters everyday of their lives.
Citation? What evidence shows that there are enough bad ones? Cherry picked news stories by for-profit media?
What if all the good ones packed up and left when they were treated like predators-to-be?
What if all the good ones packed up and left when they were treated like predators-to-be?
One of the better papers to read is http://www.ipt-forensics.com/library/female.htm
It is specifically about lifting the lid on abuse perpetuated by females, and not a "cherry picked" story.
Here's a site that is more numbers focused: http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html
Here are some numbers: Nearly all the offenders in sexual assaults reported to law enforcement were male (96%). - Sexual Assault of Young Children as Reported to Law Enforcement, 7/00, NCJ 182990, U.S. Department of Justice
Males are reported to be the abusers in 80-95% of cases -Thoringer, D., et al., 1988
All but 3% of offenders who committed violent crimes against children were male. -BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.
The typical offender is male, begins molesting by age 15, engages in a variety of deviant behavior, and molests an average of 117 youngsters, most of whom do not report the offense. -Dr. Gene Abel in a National Institute of Mental Health Study.
It is specifically about lifting the lid on abuse perpetuated by females, and not a "cherry picked" story.
Here's a site that is more numbers focused: http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html
Here are some numbers: Nearly all the offenders in sexual assaults reported to law enforcement were male (96%). - Sexual Assault of Young Children as Reported to Law Enforcement, 7/00, NCJ 182990, U.S. Department of Justice
Males are reported to be the abusers in 80-95% of cases -Thoringer, D., et al., 1988
All but 3% of offenders who committed violent crimes against children were male. -BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.
The typical offender is male, begins molesting by age 15, engages in a variety of deviant behavior, and molests an average of 117 youngsters, most of whom do not report the offense. -Dr. Gene Abel in a National Institute of Mental Health Study.
You've failed to address the core question, and instead are following a red herring:
What are the chances of my child's teacher (of any gender) being a molester?
The answer to that, as always is: vanishingly low.
So sure, I'm willing to go along with the notion that, in the absurdly improbable case that your child's teacher is a molester, it's probably a man and not a woman.
So? Your child is orders of magnitude more likely to be abused by a known family member than by a stranger or known authority figure. You're proposing that we exclude an entire gender from a legitimate profession because of this? If you're that concerned about this tiny, astronomically improbable occurrence, I suggest you also ban your uncles, aunts, and neighbors from visiting - statistically they pose a far graver threat to your child than any teacher.
This strikes me as a similar attitude to people refusing to be seated at the front of a plane since, in the case of a crash, people in the back are statistically more likely to survive. This paranoia is fueled with the complete ignorance of the fact that the odds of a commercial airliner crashing is ridiculously low.
At least the airline seat paranoid folk aren't harming anyone with their paranoia. Yours however, does.
What are the chances of my child's teacher (of any gender) being a molester?
The answer to that, as always is: vanishingly low.
So sure, I'm willing to go along with the notion that, in the absurdly improbable case that your child's teacher is a molester, it's probably a man and not a woman.
So? Your child is orders of magnitude more likely to be abused by a known family member than by a stranger or known authority figure. You're proposing that we exclude an entire gender from a legitimate profession because of this? If you're that concerned about this tiny, astronomically improbable occurrence, I suggest you also ban your uncles, aunts, and neighbors from visiting - statistically they pose a far graver threat to your child than any teacher.
This strikes me as a similar attitude to people refusing to be seated at the front of a plane since, in the case of a crash, people in the back are statistically more likely to survive. This paranoia is fueled with the complete ignorance of the fact that the odds of a commercial airliner crashing is ridiculously low.
At least the airline seat paranoid folk aren't harming anyone with their paranoia. Yours however, does.
The answer isn't vanishingly low. Contrary to popular belief, while family is the single largest group to molest a child it isn't an order of magnitude difference. And to capture just sheer numbers, I've borrowed a quote from Wikipedia:
"In North America, for example, approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children.[11][12][13] Most sexual abuse offenders are acquainted with their victims; approximately 30% are relatives of the child, most often brothers, fathers, uncles or cousins; around 60% are other acquaintances such as 'friends' of the family, babysitters, or neighbors; strangers are the offenders in approximately 10% of child sexual abuse cases.[11] Most child sexual abuse is committed by men; studies show that women commit 14% to 40% of offenses reported against boys and 6% of offenses reported against girls.[11][12][14] Most offenders who sexually abuse prepubescent children are pedophiles,[15][16] although some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia.[17][18]"
If you read my other link there's a study from the UK that notes 20% of studied male daycare workers had a sexual interest in children (maybe selection bias or reporting issues, but no indication that such a problem exists in that data).
And regarding harming someone, I'm an incremental customer. My choice does no more harm than someone else's incremental choice to not fly at all due to "irrational fears" or not solicit a certain neighborhood bar due to "irrational fears".
I just can't look at this data and see what you see. I'm sorry. I really wish I could see things your way. Honestly I do. But I can't seem to find a way to slice the data that gives me the warm fuzzies you have. And at the end of the day I'm not going to place my child in a situation that I'm weary of in order to make other people feel good.
"In North America, for example, approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children.[11][12][13] Most sexual abuse offenders are acquainted with their victims; approximately 30% are relatives of the child, most often brothers, fathers, uncles or cousins; around 60% are other acquaintances such as 'friends' of the family, babysitters, or neighbors; strangers are the offenders in approximately 10% of child sexual abuse cases.[11] Most child sexual abuse is committed by men; studies show that women commit 14% to 40% of offenses reported against boys and 6% of offenses reported against girls.[11][12][14] Most offenders who sexually abuse prepubescent children are pedophiles,[15][16] although some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia.[17][18]"
If you read my other link there's a study from the UK that notes 20% of studied male daycare workers had a sexual interest in children (maybe selection bias or reporting issues, but no indication that such a problem exists in that data).
And regarding harming someone, I'm an incremental customer. My choice does no more harm than someone else's incremental choice to not fly at all due to "irrational fears" or not solicit a certain neighborhood bar due to "irrational fears".
I just can't look at this data and see what you see. I'm sorry. I really wish I could see things your way. Honestly I do. But I can't seem to find a way to slice the data that gives me the warm fuzzies you have. And at the end of the day I'm not going to place my child in a situation that I'm weary of in order to make other people feel good.
Let's presume you are right and that a disturbingly large, statistically significant proportion of society are in fact pedophiles.
How are you combating the largest source of sexual abuse: i.e., family and friends? And why is that not applicable to your child's education where their risk factors are far lower?
I don't know about you - but I'm not going to ban my neighbors from seeing my child, nor would I give Uncle Bob the stink eye every time he gets near my niece. The reasonable stance in this case seems to be one of vigilance and education - be mindful that it may happen, educate your child to report untoward things, and do your best to vet people close to you.
You do this for your babysitter too. So why not your educators?
Your concerns are valid, but IMHO your reaction is entirely disproportionate. If your stance is proportionate to risk, you wouldn't ever leave your child alone with a family friend, or your own siblings for that matter. It still seems unreasonable to ban an entire gender of educators from your child's life over this.
To be clear, I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns in their entirety (though I do question the weight of these concerns). What seems absurd is that most families fail to address the far larger, far scarier risk factor while devoting all of their attention to a relatively tiny slice of the child abuse pie. It also seems absurd that these same families are willing to throw male educators to the wolves while Sketchy Uncle Bob gets a free pass.
[edit] As an aside:
> "studies show that women commit 14% to 40% of offenses reported against boys"
That's a gapingly wide confidence interval there. What sort of data are we basing this on?
How are you combating the largest source of sexual abuse: i.e., family and friends? And why is that not applicable to your child's education where their risk factors are far lower?
I don't know about you - but I'm not going to ban my neighbors from seeing my child, nor would I give Uncle Bob the stink eye every time he gets near my niece. The reasonable stance in this case seems to be one of vigilance and education - be mindful that it may happen, educate your child to report untoward things, and do your best to vet people close to you.
You do this for your babysitter too. So why not your educators?
Your concerns are valid, but IMHO your reaction is entirely disproportionate. If your stance is proportionate to risk, you wouldn't ever leave your child alone with a family friend, or your own siblings for that matter. It still seems unreasonable to ban an entire gender of educators from your child's life over this.
To be clear, I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns in their entirety (though I do question the weight of these concerns). What seems absurd is that most families fail to address the far larger, far scarier risk factor while devoting all of their attention to a relatively tiny slice of the child abuse pie. It also seems absurd that these same families are willing to throw male educators to the wolves while Sketchy Uncle Bob gets a free pass.
[edit] As an aside:
> "studies show that women commit 14% to 40% of offenses reported against boys"
That's a gapingly wide confidence interval there. What sort of data are we basing this on?
If your stance is proportionate to risk, you wouldn't ever leave your child alone with a family friend, or your own siblings for that matter.
The only male family member I'd leave my child with is my father. I have two sisters, so the sibling angle not so big of a deal. And one brother-in-law who is a crimina ldefense lawyer, so won't stay alone in a room with kids anyways :-)
So maybe in some sense the family structure has made it easy for me to sidestep this potential conundrum.
And I agree about education and such. As the child is older I'd certainly relax things, but a toddler isn't going to know what is going on.
And regarding friends, I don't really have any male friends that I'd be comfortable leaving a toddler with -- even sexual abuse aside.
As children get older this changes, but 0-5 I just don't know if my child were around many men alone. And none regularly.
But I will grant you this... I'm at a more extreme side of the spectrum than most when it comes to risk avoidance in general. Especially compared to the HN crowd.
The only male family member I'd leave my child with is my father. I have two sisters, so the sibling angle not so big of a deal. And one brother-in-law who is a crimina ldefense lawyer, so won't stay alone in a room with kids anyways :-)
So maybe in some sense the family structure has made it easy for me to sidestep this potential conundrum.
And I agree about education and such. As the child is older I'd certainly relax things, but a toddler isn't going to know what is going on.
And regarding friends, I don't really have any male friends that I'd be comfortable leaving a toddler with -- even sexual abuse aside.
As children get older this changes, but 0-5 I just don't know if my child were around many men alone. And none regularly.
But I will grant you this... I'm at a more extreme side of the spectrum than most when it comes to risk avoidance in general. Especially compared to the HN crowd.
0-5 year olds are especially at risk (compared to older pre-teens) for sexual abuse from some significant number of sick (mostly male) adults? Or your 6+ year olds will be trained to defend themselves?
I was referring to the belief that 6+ year olds can be taught some things to avoid being exploited. At the very least they might be able to state that something has happened.
FWIW the 20% figure is reasonable. Reading through http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/82/4/457.full and doing some back of the envelope figures, let's suppose that 20% of the population has been abused. Let's suppose that the average abuser abuses 20 people. So 1% of the population are abusers. If virtually all abusers are men, that puts it at about 2% of the male population. (Which is, incidentally, similar in frequency from homosexuality. So this is not a difficult to believe rate to find for an unusual sexual orientation. Though evidence suggests very little overlap between homosexuality and pedophilia.)
Now add to this the fact that most men don't have a strong interest in children. But all pedophiles do. So among men who choose to deal with children all day, you have to expect much higher rates of pedophilia than in the general population. If it is an order of magnitude difference, you'd get to 20% pretty easily.
All of that notwithstanding, the best way to protect children seems to me to be to teach them what they should bring up with other adults. Abuse depends on secrecy. The best protection is light. This is much better than tarring 80% with the problems of the remaining 20%. Particularly if you believe, as I do, that it is important for children to have both male and female role models.
Furthermore it seems to me that we're creating our own problem. The more we demonize men who want to deal with children, the more we drive non-pedophiles away from that, then the higher the fraction of those left who are going to be pedophiles.
I understand your decision to react differently based on the data. But I don't agree with it.
Now add to this the fact that most men don't have a strong interest in children. But all pedophiles do. So among men who choose to deal with children all day, you have to expect much higher rates of pedophilia than in the general population. If it is an order of magnitude difference, you'd get to 20% pretty easily.
All of that notwithstanding, the best way to protect children seems to me to be to teach them what they should bring up with other adults. Abuse depends on secrecy. The best protection is light. This is much better than tarring 80% with the problems of the remaining 20%. Particularly if you believe, as I do, that it is important for children to have both male and female role models.
Furthermore it seems to me that we're creating our own problem. The more we demonize men who want to deal with children, the more we drive non-pedophiles away from that, then the higher the fraction of those left who are going to be pedophiles.
I understand your decision to react differently based on the data. But I don't agree with it.
The more we demonize men who want to deal with children, the more we drive non-pedophiles away from that, then the higher the fraction of those left who are going to be pedophiles.
I agree with that, and I don't like it. I don't particularly like the position I have. I struggle to take on a different one though.
I agree with that, and I don't like it. I don't particularly like the position I have. I struggle to take on a different one though.
> " Let's suppose that the average abuser abuses 20 people."
According to kenjackson's post and data, it's closer to 110 people. This seems to put the real number closer to 0.2% of the population.
That being said, this type of context-less extrapolation can be dangerous.
According to kenjackson's post and data, it's closer to 110 people. This seems to put the real number closer to 0.2% of the population.
That being said, this type of context-less extrapolation can be dangerous.
Different studies have found very different figures. The link that I provided includes a range of figures from different studies for different kinds of pedophiles ranging from 5.2-150 victims/pedophile. One of the reported numbers for non-incarcerated heterosexual pedophiles was 19.8. It looked like a reasonable figure, so I used it (after rounding).
It should be noted that I started drawing my figures with the assumption that I'd find that the number was hopelessly overinflated. When I got done I could have easily picked other numbers to show that. But I decided to be honest and report the first set of reasonable numbers that I tried.
It should be noted that I started drawing my figures with the assumption that I'd find that the number was hopelessly overinflated. When I got done I could have easily picked other numbers to show that. But I decided to be honest and report the first set of reasonable numbers that I tried.
> studies show that women commit 14% to 40% of offenses reported against boys
I don't usually like "studies of studies" because of quotations like this. Its disturbing when the margin is +/-20% difference between the high estimate and the low estimate.
I don't usually like "studies of studies" because of quotations like this. Its disturbing when the margin is +/-20% difference between the high estimate and the low estimate.
You're going to want better (different, rather) citations if you want to justify your claims. None of those citations give reason to be wary of allowing a male teacher to be alone with a student.
What are the statistics on the number of men who are pedophiles? Better yet, what are the statistics on the number of male teachers (who are screened before they are hired) who are pedophiles?
If there was only one pedophile in the world, and he happened to be male, you could say that 100% of pedophiles are male and so you should never leave a child alone with a man. But that doesn't make sense, does it?
What are the statistics on the number of men who are pedophiles? Better yet, what are the statistics on the number of male teachers (who are screened before they are hired) who are pedophiles?
If there was only one pedophile in the world, and he happened to be male, you could say that 100% of pedophiles are male and so you should never leave a child alone with a man. But that doesn't make sense, does it?
That's why we had to get rid of our German professor.
Statistically there was a 7.5% risk he would gas the students (6 million Jews/80 Million Germans)
Statistically there was a 7.5% risk he would gas the students (6 million Jews/80 Million Germans)
I get your trying to be cute, but your example is pretty poor. One can reasonably argue that the Germans were either part of or led by the Nazi party. You could argue there hasn't been a gasing in 50 years. You can argue that they occurred in Europe (maybe you're in Europe, but just in case you're not).
I can't give you any reassurance like that. I can't say that men with college degrees don't do it. That it hasn't happened in the US. Or has happened at all in the past 10 years or even past week.
There doesn't exist an objective measure, that I know of, that I can use to rationally reduce risk. Now I've left this open, and clearly stated "that I know of".
If you can show me a key piece of statistical evidence that I've missed that will make this clear, I'd be happy to see it. And I will make an effort to avoid Nazi daycare teachers.
I can't give you any reassurance like that. I can't say that men with college degrees don't do it. That it hasn't happened in the US. Or has happened at all in the past 10 years or even past week.
There doesn't exist an objective measure, that I know of, that I can use to rationally reduce risk. Now I've left this open, and clearly stated "that I know of".
If you can show me a key piece of statistical evidence that I've missed that will make this clear, I'd be happy to see it. And I will make an effort to avoid Nazi daycare teachers.
If 99% of abuse is committed by men but 90% is committed by family members - then worrying that a stranger is man is not logical.
The point of the article though is that an unofficial blanket ban on male teachers - in case they are abusers - makes as much sense as a ban on Muslim airline pilots, or on Germans in uniform.
The point of the article though is that an unofficial blanket ban on male teachers - in case they are abusers - makes as much sense as a ban on Muslim airline pilots, or on Germans in uniform.
The data I've seen (and cite/quote in previous posts in this thread) show that only 30% are committed by family members. 60% by out of family acquitances, like teachers, coaches, etc... And 10% by strangers.
All of your statistics are pointing at society in general, which does not support your statement regarding the subset of male teachers versus female teachers (particularly if you take into account the gender ratios of teachers).
These statistics are also in relation to the total number of molesters in the US population, which if my memory serves me (at work, no desire to look up the specifics on my work connection) is less than .01% of the US population.
That's a pretty small chance of a random male of being an offender, much less so a male teacher.
These statistics are also in relation to the total number of molesters in the US population, which if my memory serves me (at work, no desire to look up the specifics on my work connection) is less than .01% of the US population.
That's a pretty small chance of a random male of being an offender, much less so a male teacher.
1. Abuse > molestation. A woman can still horribly harm your child without sexual assault.
2. Regarding Mr. Abels quote, I think you'll find that female abusers go unreported more often precisely because of this bias.
3. Do you also avoid black people? Statistically they are much more likely to be criminals. So you only allow your family to be around white people right? Do you feel safer that way?
2. Regarding Mr. Abels quote, I think you'll find that female abusers go unreported more often precisely because of this bias.
3. Do you also avoid black people? Statistically they are much more likely to be criminals. So you only allow your family to be around white people right? Do you feel safer that way?
Do you also avoid black people? Statistically they are much more likely to be criminals. So you only allow your family to be around white people right? Do you feel safer that way?
This is an excellent question. Do I avoid Black people? Honestly, there are some Black people I do avoid. The difference between "Black people" == criminals and male childcare workers == pedophile, is my ability to differentiate when I think those equalities are true in a specific instance.
The majority of crime by Blacks fits into a subset of the Black population that is distinguishable by a variety of factors. Not perfectly (not near perfectly), but close enough that I don't roll through certain areas of Detroit or BMore at 2am. I work with Blacks on the job, and they're no more likely to commit crime than Whites.
I seriously wish the same could be said of pedophiles. Seriously, I'd pay money for that ability. I don't have that ability or insight. If someone else does, more power to them, I'd love to know what you know.
This is an excellent question. Do I avoid Black people? Honestly, there are some Black people I do avoid. The difference between "Black people" == criminals and male childcare workers == pedophile, is my ability to differentiate when I think those equalities are true in a specific instance.
The majority of crime by Blacks fits into a subset of the Black population that is distinguishable by a variety of factors. Not perfectly (not near perfectly), but close enough that I don't roll through certain areas of Detroit or BMore at 2am. I work with Blacks on the job, and they're no more likely to commit crime than Whites.
I seriously wish the same could be said of pedophiles. Seriously, I'd pay money for that ability. I don't have that ability or insight. If someone else does, more power to them, I'd love to know what you know.
Where are the stats about male /teachers/ alone with pupils having a worrying level of sexual predation, which is what you claimed.
Here's one about daycare workers:
http://bjsw.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/4/481.full.pdf
Here's a quote based on their data, "In summary this study found that a sexual interest in children is relatively common among male public sector child care workers".
Here's another study about educators: http://www.taasa.org/library/pdfs/TAASALibrary142.pdf
Choice quote, "The vast majority (96%) of the abusers in our study were males".
But lets be clear, I'm not saying to ban male daycare teachers at all. I'm just saying I won't send my children to one. And I think the numbers make this very clear as to why one might make this decision. Now clearly you don't think those numbers prove anything and that's fine. Like I said in another post, it's a great arbitrage opportunity for you.
Here's a quote based on their data, "In summary this study found that a sexual interest in children is relatively common among male public sector child care workers".
Here's another study about educators: http://www.taasa.org/library/pdfs/TAASALibrary142.pdf
Choice quote, "The vast majority (96%) of the abusers in our study were males".
But lets be clear, I'm not saying to ban male daycare teachers at all. I'm just saying I won't send my children to one. And I think the numbers make this very clear as to why one might make this decision. Now clearly you don't think those numbers prove anything and that's fine. Like I said in another post, it's a great arbitrage opportunity for you.
Though you're certainly entitled to do whatever you wish re: your child's education and care, I do find your attitude highly disturbing.
You are condoning the ostracism and discrimination of an entire gender from an entire field of occupation, and the best comment you can come up with regarding it is hey, maybe people can get some sweet deals from all the male caretakers who will now be working at slave wages just to find work.
Imagine if we replaced "male" with "black". Would it seem like such a reasonable position then? Would we be okay with condoning the economic exploitation of blacks by encouraging an uneven employment playing field?
So why are we ok with doing this to all men?
You are condoning the ostracism and discrimination of an entire gender from an entire field of occupation, and the best comment you can come up with regarding it is hey, maybe people can get some sweet deals from all the male caretakers who will now be working at slave wages just to find work.
Imagine if we replaced "male" with "black". Would it seem like such a reasonable position then? Would we be okay with condoning the economic exploitation of blacks by encouraging an uneven employment playing field?
So why are we ok with doing this to all men?
http://bjsw.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/4/481.full.pdf
This study is mindbogglingly dodgy, if you actually take it seriously I understand your hysteria, but a few thoughts;
1) Basic sanity check, you seriously buy that approximately one in five male workers in public sector child care work diagnose themselves as pedophiles? That's the most absurd up front point that just doesn't stand up to any kind of real world critical thought.
2) The methodology of the study claims that two questions were asked with responses on a likert scale "I am sexually attracted to some children" and "I would have sex with a child if it was certain noone would find out and there would be no punishment" with levels ranging from strongly disagree to strongly agree. On this seven point scale anything from 4-7 is considered to mean that the person is a pedophile. Children are defined as "before the subject's sixteenth birthday", by this measure someone who was unsure if they found a Britney Spears music video sexually attractive might potentially incriminate themselves as a pedophile.
3) further, the actual responses even by their dodgy methodology doesn't bring up the quoted 20% figure you offer, but these figures; Female childcare workers sexually attracted to some children 2%, Male childcare workers sexually attracted to some children 12%. I would have sex with a child if it was certain noone would find out and there would be no punishment, female 2%, male 4%.
By these methods they actually then come to the conclusion "sexual interest in children is relatively common among male public sector child care workers".
It is for reasons like these that I as a 31 year old male with no children or criminal history of any kind and an otherwise pronounced protective streak, would if walking down a dark street at night seeing a child crying and alone on the corner by themselves, not just keep on walking but move to the other side of the street. It should be terrifying to parents that this is the rational response for otherwise concerned strangers, but I guess that's more your problem than mine, and you can see how we come to that position by persecutory hysterical media such as the cited "study".
This study is mindbogglingly dodgy, if you actually take it seriously I understand your hysteria, but a few thoughts;
1) Basic sanity check, you seriously buy that approximately one in five male workers in public sector child care work diagnose themselves as pedophiles? That's the most absurd up front point that just doesn't stand up to any kind of real world critical thought.
2) The methodology of the study claims that two questions were asked with responses on a likert scale "I am sexually attracted to some children" and "I would have sex with a child if it was certain noone would find out and there would be no punishment" with levels ranging from strongly disagree to strongly agree. On this seven point scale anything from 4-7 is considered to mean that the person is a pedophile. Children are defined as "before the subject's sixteenth birthday", by this measure someone who was unsure if they found a Britney Spears music video sexually attractive might potentially incriminate themselves as a pedophile.
3) further, the actual responses even by their dodgy methodology doesn't bring up the quoted 20% figure you offer, but these figures; Female childcare workers sexually attracted to some children 2%, Male childcare workers sexually attracted to some children 12%. I would have sex with a child if it was certain noone would find out and there would be no punishment, female 2%, male 4%.
By these methods they actually then come to the conclusion "sexual interest in children is relatively common among male public sector child care workers".
It is for reasons like these that I as a 31 year old male with no children or criminal history of any kind and an otherwise pronounced protective streak, would if walking down a dark street at night seeing a child crying and alone on the corner by themselves, not just keep on walking but move to the other side of the street. It should be terrifying to parents that this is the rational response for otherwise concerned strangers, but I guess that's more your problem than mine, and you can see how we come to that position by persecutory hysterical media such as the cited "study".
Although I'm sure there are men who have a sexual interest in 5year olds - it is shall we say a rather 'specialized' section of society.
However - what proportion of 25year old TAs have a sexual interest in 19year old students? Perhaps we should allow the men to be kindergarten teachers but ban them from being junior professors?
Actually in my new lab we got these nice new offices with big heavy doors. We got 'advised' not to be in a room alone with students, then we got 'advised' by the fire dept that we couldn't wedge the doors open - so much advice for one little physics dept.
However - what proportion of 25year old TAs have a sexual interest in 19year old students? Perhaps we should allow the men to be kindergarten teachers but ban them from being junior professors?
Actually in my new lab we got these nice new offices with big heavy doors. We got 'advised' not to be in a room alone with students, then we got 'advised' by the fire dept that we couldn't wedge the doors open - so much advice for one little physics dept.
I didn't follow your links, but I do want to point out that the statistics you mention strike me as the wrong ones. You're discussing how many pedophiles are men, but I want to know how many men are pedophiles.
It's like saying that one should always walk on the sidewalk because land mines are always planted in soil. Whether or not that's good advise depends very much on how much I expect to encounter land mines on my travels.
It's like saying that one should always walk on the sidewalk because land mines are always planted in soil. Whether or not that's good advise depends very much on how much I expect to encounter land mines on my travels.
Not that your position is logical, but if it was, it seems like you'd have the opposite position: teachers might be alone with groups of children, but probably not with a single child, one-on-one.
But piano teachers and other tutors seem like they'd often be alone one-on-one with a child. I was always dropped off by my parents (or rode my bike across town) for those kinds of things. Do parents today really cart their children around and sit and watch them every second? Geez.
To be clear, in no way am I advocating that paranoia against male piano teachers or tutors is justified.
But piano teachers and other tutors seem like they'd often be alone one-on-one with a child. I was always dropped off by my parents (or rode my bike across town) for those kinds of things. Do parents today really cart their children around and sit and watch them every second? Geez.
To be clear, in no way am I advocating that paranoia against male piano teachers or tutors is justified.
You may be correct in most cases. For me, the tutoring and piano are both at the house. I generally sit 10 feet away writing code. Not for any particular reason, but its generally where I code at when home.
Most abuse is by family members/friends.
So rather than trusting your husband to drop your kids off in the SUV and worrying about the gym teacher - you would be safer letting them walk with strangers.
So rather than trusting your husband to drop your kids off in the SUV and worrying about the gym teacher - you would be safer letting them walk with strangers.
In the same way that "most accidents happen within 5 miles of home" is true but wouldn't be true any longer if you intentionally increased the amount of time spent driving farther away, if you made sure your kids hung out with a variety of strangers more often than with people you know, then it wouldn't be true any more than most of their abuse would come from family or friends.
At least, you can't deny that it's possible. In other words, your reasoning is wrong ("So ..."), no matter the actual truth value of your conclusion.
At least, you can't deny that it's possible. In other words, your reasoning is wrong ("So ..."), no matter the actual truth value of your conclusion.
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The moon is made of cheese and Atlantis is located just off Greenland. The data bears this out.
I'll provide a citation for my claims if you provide one for yours. The plural of anecdote is not data.
I'll provide a citation for my claims if you provide one for yours. The plural of anecdote is not data.
> The data bears this out
I'd really appreciate a citation on that.
I'd really appreciate a citation on that.
See my other post, which contains some. If you don't think those are satisfactory (and please state why), I have more.
I find it interesting that I was downmodded on this. They ask for citations, I provided them. People wanted different kinds of data, I got data to address their points.
I don't think the problem is the citations or the data, but rather the viewpoint.
Lets be clear, you don't want citations or data. You want me to change my mind.
I don't think the problem is the citations or the data, but rather the viewpoint.
Lets be clear, you don't want citations or data. You want me to change my mind.
The downvoting's annoying. I don't agree with you, but you're presenting your argument calmly, clearly, and with supporting links - I think that's always valuable.
Hear hear. Seriously, this is how discussions should work. Ken stated that there was data, I asked for it, and he delivered in spades. Sadly, his HN Karma is close to net-negative for this thread, while mine's shot up by a few tens of points. Things absolutely should not work that way.
[I originally posted this on a reddit discussion, link's at the bottom]
But a few minutes in, Ellie decides he's done reading for the day. And for one reason or another, he jumps up out of the bench seat, pointing an accusatory finger at his tutor. His English wasn't super clear, and he wasn't being very loud (thank god), but I did catch "touch" and "special area."
The two of us are frozen in horror. What can you say but "I... b... no..."? Ellie maintains this outrage long enough to really get some good satisfaction out of the looks on our faces, and then he relents and just starts laughing at us.
What if someone walking by had heard? We were in a partially exposed church basement kind of area, so it's not unheard of for random people to be walking by - and the cry of abuse stirs the indignation better than most anything else - so there was a really good chance that something really awful was about to happen.
But it didn't.
So the question was, what do you do now? We tried to impress upon him never to do something like that again, but he clearly didn't grasp the full potential force of his actions. We were like 20 at the time, and ill-equipped to deal with children on this level, so we probably should have relayed the event to an adult of some sort, but we were too worried about how it would be perceived, so we just moved on.
Neither of us stopped volunteering because of the incident, but I'll never forget the sinking dread of that instant, that's for sure.
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/e7l16/i_work_with...
One day, my friend Bryan was charged with the daunting task of getting Ellie, one of the older and more difficult students, to read out of a children's book for a distinct and measurable amount of time.
But a few minutes in, Ellie decides he's done reading for the day. And for one reason or another, he jumps up out of the bench seat, pointing an accusatory finger at his tutor. His English wasn't super clear, and he wasn't being very loud (thank god), but I did catch "touch" and "special area."
The two of us are frozen in horror. What can you say but "I... b... no..."? Ellie maintains this outrage long enough to really get some good satisfaction out of the looks on our faces, and then he relents and just starts laughing at us.
What if someone walking by had heard? We were in a partially exposed church basement kind of area, so it's not unheard of for random people to be walking by - and the cry of abuse stirs the indignation better than most anything else - so there was a really good chance that something really awful was about to happen.
But it didn't.
So the question was, what do you do now? We tried to impress upon him never to do something like that again, but he clearly didn't grasp the full potential force of his actions. We were like 20 at the time, and ill-equipped to deal with children on this level, so we probably should have relayed the event to an adult of some sort, but we were too worried about how it would be perceived, so we just moved on.
Neither of us stopped volunteering because of the incident, but I'll never forget the sinking dread of that instant, that's for sure.
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/e7l16/i_work_with...
I'll never forget when my two oldest kids (now in their 20s) went to one of those early head-start kind of places when they were a kid.
One week the lesson was on inappropriate touching. I know this because both kids spent the next month inappropriately touching everybody they met -- with some very humorous results.
Of all the things that have changed in the last 40 years or so, this thing we've done where we've trained everybody to be afraid of each other is probably the worst. Every day parents are bombarded by statistically highly-unlikely events that they take to be commonplace. It's made an awful impact on the fabric of society. Very sad.
One week the lesson was on inappropriate touching. I know this because both kids spent the next month inappropriately touching everybody they met -- with some very humorous results.
Of all the things that have changed in the last 40 years or so, this thing we've done where we've trained everybody to be afraid of each other is probably the worst. Every day parents are bombarded by statistically highly-unlikely events that they take to be commonplace. It's made an awful impact on the fabric of society. Very sad.
All the french people in the audience will remember the Outreau trial ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreau_trial ) where several innocent people spent years in prison and one commited suicide, all that based on the lies of two persons and bogus psychiatric expertise of the children. The media also took a big part in this debacle. I think it really made people realize something here, I don't think this could happen again anytime soon. I hope you won't have to live something like that in the US to make things change.
People should be presumed innocent unless proven guilty, not the other way around. The modern western society would have us think otherwise (and not only for child molesting, see CCTV, airport screenings, ...).
People should be presumed innocent unless proven guilty, not the other way around. The modern western society would have us think otherwise (and not only for child molesting, see CCTV, airport screenings, ...).
Ah, but we did live through it in the '80s with the satanic abuse hoax, and we didn't learn anything. In fact, the people involved in pushing the hoax were rewarded with higher office. See http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870428120457500... for a good writeup of the case.
In reading about these child abuse cases I was struck by how familiar they sound to the Witch Trials of the 17th Century.
We have prosecutors convinced they have discovered a hidden evil and that it is more widespread than people like to think. They sometimes have children as witnesses. They have false confessions from the accused. And we have bodily investigations of "secrete places" either to confirm that sexual abuse has taken place or the devil "knew" was familiar with the accused. And we have bizarre stories of strange practices, which are credulously believed.
It is like there is some universal process going on here. Communities require these expressions of hidden evils. And if you doubt the veracity of these claims then you are suspect too.
I don't think this paranoia is a new phenomenon to human society. What changes is the topic, but not the underlying need we have in human society for these expressions.
Examples of Witch Trials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Hopkins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
We have prosecutors convinced they have discovered a hidden evil and that it is more widespread than people like to think. They sometimes have children as witnesses. They have false confessions from the accused. And we have bodily investigations of "secrete places" either to confirm that sexual abuse has taken place or the devil "knew" was familiar with the accused. And we have bizarre stories of strange practices, which are credulously believed.
It is like there is some universal process going on here. Communities require these expressions of hidden evils. And if you doubt the veracity of these claims then you are suspect too.
I don't think this paranoia is a new phenomenon to human society. What changes is the topic, but not the underlying need we have in human society for these expressions.
Examples of Witch Trials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Hopkins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
There was a campaign like that in the UK - the kids were given dolls with somewhat impressive external genitals. If the kids touched the genitals that was evidence that they were being abused.
Apart from the fact that dolls of adults with penises are rather unusual and likely to produce an odd reaction - the same logic suggests my nieces are being abused by the lion from Lion king.
Apart from the fact that dolls of adults with penises are rather unusual and likely to produce an odd reaction - the same logic suggests my nieces are being abused by the lion from Lion king.
Kids aren't stupid and they are mischevious. Little kids in Brooklyn already mess around with older people by yelling "pedo" at them. I've seen more than one dark British comedy where this is a repeated joke. When adults get too neurotic about stuff kids end up using it against them.
By far, the most gruesome example of this was the Salem Witch Trials, which lead to the deaths of 51 innocent people. This was a clear case of children sensing fear in adults and using it against them. The driving force of the murders (for they really were murders) was a few girls in their early teens. Past a certain point, the judge and some of the town elders almost certainly knew that the girls were lying, but none of the adults could afford to appear to be soft about confronting the Devil. Each adult needed to appear, to the other adults, as if they were taking a strong stand against Satan, and the young girls sensed this tension, and manipulated it in gruesome ways.
That's how society gets rid of future kids (AKA "solving problem of overpopulation").
The more dangerous it is to deal with kids (because of potential legal consequences), the less people want to deal with kids.
End result: childcare (formal and informal) is getting more expensive, potential parents have less children or don't have children at all.
The more dangerous it is to deal with kids (because of potential legal consequences), the less people want to deal with kids.
End result: childcare (formal and informal) is getting more expensive, potential parents have less children or don't have children at all.
That's how society gets rid of future kids (AKA "solving problem of overpopulation").
The more dangerous it is to deal with kids (because of potential legal consequences), the less people want to deal with kids.
End result: childcare (formal and informal) is getting more expensive, potential parents have less children or don't have children at all.
I think some children at least understand fully the power it gives them, and for some troubled children it is a tool to lash out.
It's surely more pointing out the absurdity of adults being so petrified of terrorists/pedophiles/etc Basically everything the media tries to make us scared of.
We were like 20 at the time, and ill-equipped to deal with children on this level, so we probably should have relayed the event to an adult of some sort
At 20 you are an adult of some sort, and have been for some time. The only problem I see in the story is you don't act like it.
At 20 you are an adult of some sort, and have been for some time. The only problem I see in the story is you don't act like it.
You are an adult of some sort at 20, but for most people, that sort is "barely."
At 20 I had more than a decade of odd job work experience. It is just funny to see people who have such a different idea of what they are responsible for.
I had been working face to face customer service for my mom's business since I could talk - it could never have prepared me for this situation, as I suspect is the case with your odd job experience, but that's not the point.
I didn't have a problem with saying I didn't handle the situation like an adult - at no point did I contend that I did. But we were taking as much responsibility as we could feasibly handle, this just went above and beyond what we were prepared for.
So I hope you understand when I take exception to you suggesting that we didn't take on enough responsibility. This organization was filled entirely with people who wanted only to help their community by taking on additional responsibilities.
You could argue that we were irresponsible to take on such roles if we were unprepared, but there was nobody else stepping up to help out. This was in a town of 40k college students, most opting to spend that saturday morning getting some extra sleep or nursing a hangover.
So when you say it's "funny to see people who have such a different idea of what they are responsible for," I say "Yes. Yes it is."
I didn't have a problem with saying I didn't handle the situation like an adult - at no point did I contend that I did. But we were taking as much responsibility as we could feasibly handle, this just went above and beyond what we were prepared for.
So I hope you understand when I take exception to you suggesting that we didn't take on enough responsibility. This organization was filled entirely with people who wanted only to help their community by taking on additional responsibilities.
You could argue that we were irresponsible to take on such roles if we were unprepared, but there was nobody else stepping up to help out. This was in a town of 40k college students, most opting to spend that saturday morning getting some extra sleep or nursing a hangover.
So when you say it's "funny to see people who have such a different idea of what they are responsible for," I say "Yes. Yes it is."
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So I hope you understand when I take exception to you suggesting that we didn't take on enough responsibility.
Where did you take on responsibility? You went in to a situation where responsibility was required and when even the slightest hint of responsibility was necessary you said "I am not responsible, I am not even an adult". When you were clearly responsible and clearly an adult. Helping other is admirable. Flipping out and disclaiming responsibility at the slightest hint of trouble not so much.
Where did you take on responsibility? You went in to a situation where responsibility was required and when even the slightest hint of responsibility was necessary you said "I am not responsible, I am not even an adult". When you were clearly responsible and clearly an adult. Helping other is admirable. Flipping out and disclaiming responsibility at the slightest hint of trouble not so much.
The media deserves a good chunk of blame for this phenomenon. They have inflamed society's fears into paranoia by hyping and over-reporting exceptional events, giving the false impression that child predators are anywhere and everywhere.
Meanwhile, children are far more likely to be physically or sexually abused or kidnapped by close relatives. But that story is less compelling from a media perspective so the public is less exposed to it.
Meanwhile, children are far more likely to be physically or sexually abused or kidnapped by close relatives. But that story is less compelling from a media perspective so the public is less exposed to it.
I agree. I also think that like many things, this kind of paranoia regarding pedophilia is taken the the extreme in the US. I've spent time in several European countries, Greece for example, where it is perfectly OK for an adult man to pat someone else's child on the head without the mother pulling the kid close.
Lenore Skenazy is actually the leader of an entire movement around kids being able to do more of what they want (hence the book: Free Range Kids). You can check out the blog here: http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/
Also, she caused quite a stir a few years ago for letting her 9 year old kid ride the subway alone. Her story about it is here: http://www.nysun.com/news/why-i-let-my-9-year-old-ride-subwa...
Also, she caused quite a stir a few years ago for letting her 9 year old kid ride the subway alone. Her story about it is here: http://www.nysun.com/news/why-i-let-my-9-year-old-ride-subwa...
Skenazy was also featured in an episode (608) of Penn & Teller's Bullshit about the topic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullsh...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullsh...
All the newspapers and TV stations and social media and whatnot create an environment very different from the one we evolved with. This is not the small tribe living in the savanna anymore, yet we react to news exactly the same way.
Hence all the bizarre attitudes like the one described in this article.
Hence all the bizarre attitudes like the one described in this article.
It's like the "mass animal deaths" stuff at the beginning of the year. Despite all statistics saying it's normal, it suddenly feels like a real problem because the news is covering it. 24/7 news is probably the worst thing to come from the 20th century.
I didn't know the author's gender until the end. Nice to see a woman pointing out misandry.
Male nanny here.
Anyway, I was an education major and one my male professors would always stress to the males in the class that they should be extremely cautious when dealing with children (don't hold their hands, etc):
The professor started out teaching first grade, and one time, a boy in his class came out of the bathroom with his pants down because he couldn't get them back up. Before the boy could even ask for help, the professor ran down the hallway to the nearest classroom with a female teacher to have her pull up the boys pants.
I'm not offended by the way it is though. Like how at the Iowa daycare center where the one male aide can't even be in the room while diapers are being changed. I was taught to stay far away from those types of situations and to be honest, if it makes someone feel better that I'm not in there - that's fine by me.
Anyway, I was an education major and one my male professors would always stress to the males in the class that they should be extremely cautious when dealing with children (don't hold their hands, etc):
The professor started out teaching first grade, and one time, a boy in his class came out of the bathroom with his pants down because he couldn't get them back up. Before the boy could even ask for help, the professor ran down the hallway to the nearest classroom with a female teacher to have her pull up the boys pants.
I'm not offended by the way it is though. Like how at the Iowa daycare center where the one male aide can't even be in the room while diapers are being changed. I was taught to stay far away from those types of situations and to be honest, if it makes someone feel better that I'm not in there - that's fine by me.
Slippery slope, dude.
I remember when this all got started in the early 90s. The 80s were pretty mellow but then I think the Polly Klass murder in California was a watershed moment where the politicians and the news media just went for it with the insane anti-male paranoid stuff. All the school policies changed and everything got excessively locked down and paranoid.
The 80s weren't completely serene either though. That's when the whole day care sex abuse hysteria really picked up steam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria
Sadly, it's difficult to compare the hand-wavy benefit (letting children interact with men) with the real cost of having something happen to your child.
As a parent, I'm of the opinion that the media blows kidnappings and the like way out of proportion. Even then, it's difficult to look at the data objectively, because it's your children.
As a parent, I'm of the opinion that the media blows kidnappings and the like way out of proportion. Even then, it's difficult to look at the data objectively, because it's your children.
Kidnapping and child abuse are almost always relatives or friends of the family. Strangers, statistically, are very safe.
[deleted]
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I get a weird mix of this.
I'm a scout leader in Australia, where Scouts is non-denominational, non-discriminatory and mixed gender. I'm a Venturer leader, the 14 - 18 year olds, and I'm gay.
These things ARE linked. I'm a Venturer leader because it was this or being a Joey leader, which is the under 10's, and I just CBF dealing with that noise, because I'm also gay, which makes parents immediately suspicious. 'Cause, you know, once a little bit of a pervert, NATURALLY a complete monster. Just like how litterbugs all become worse then Pol Pot.
So, on the one hand I avoided one sort of leadership. On the other, I'm wanted because I'm a male, I can relate to the younger dudes. At camps we have a leader of both sexes not because there are touching fears, but because kids need someone of either gender to talk too if they need it, to make them comfortable.
I'm a scout leader in Australia, where Scouts is non-denominational, non-discriminatory and mixed gender. I'm a Venturer leader, the 14 - 18 year olds, and I'm gay.
These things ARE linked. I'm a Venturer leader because it was this or being a Joey leader, which is the under 10's, and I just CBF dealing with that noise, because I'm also gay, which makes parents immediately suspicious. 'Cause, you know, once a little bit of a pervert, NATURALLY a complete monster. Just like how litterbugs all become worse then Pol Pot.
So, on the one hand I avoided one sort of leadership. On the other, I'm wanted because I'm a male, I can relate to the younger dudes. At camps we have a leader of both sexes not because there are touching fears, but because kids need someone of either gender to talk too if they need it, to make them comfortable.
This also extends to other areas as well.
If a man is furiously yelling and striking a woman in public the police will be called on the man. If a woman is yelling and furiously slapping a man, the police will be called on the man.
Consider that: 1. Men receive stiffer sentences for the same crime.
2. Men are routinely ruined by family court, because of the instant trump card that an abuse accusation brings. Additionally they have few options when they are the victim of abuse.
If a man is furiously yelling and striking a woman in public the police will be called on the man. If a woman is yelling and furiously slapping a man, the police will be called on the man.
Consider that: 1. Men receive stiffer sentences for the same crime.
2. Men are routinely ruined by family court, because of the instant trump card that an abuse accusation brings. Additionally they have few options when they are the victim of abuse.
It bothers me.
I used to assist teaching a Saturday morning martial arts class for kids. The change-rooms were communal; nothing unusual and I never thought anything of it. Then I was told that it made the parents uncomfortable and I had to change in the office. Suddenly I felt embarrassed and shameful.
Then I was shocked that I had felt such feelings. I don't experience much, if any, discrimination in my life. I really empathize with those who do. It's terrible.
I used to assist teaching a Saturday morning martial arts class for kids. The change-rooms were communal; nothing unusual and I never thought anything of it. Then I was told that it made the parents uncomfortable and I had to change in the office. Suddenly I felt embarrassed and shameful.
Then I was shocked that I had felt such feelings. I don't experience much, if any, discrimination in my life. I really empathize with those who do. It's terrible.
I teach first grade Sunday School at my church and I definitely noticed that parents were uncomfortable with me being alone with the kids for a few weeks. This in spite of the fact that I'm a leader in our church and I knew a lot of the parents outside of this setting. I also had to have a background check before being allowed to help out.
It was pretty annoying but the parents got over it when they saw that their kids loved having me there. This is in part because I always seem to end up discussing Star Wars or video games with the boys for at least part of the time.
What's funny (and sad) is that this attitude spills over into family life. My brother won't kiss my oldest daughter on the lips despite her insistence that he do so (she has some pretty strong opinions). His response was that "I don't do that with kids."
It was pretty annoying but the parents got over it when they saw that their kids loved having me there. This is in part because I always seem to end up discussing Star Wars or video games with the boys for at least part of the time.
What's funny (and sad) is that this attitude spills over into family life. My brother won't kiss my oldest daughter on the lips despite her insistence that he do so (she has some pretty strong opinions). His response was that "I don't do that with kids."
That last comment made me think of this sentence from a student's recent petition to reverse a school's "No hugging" policy:
"Interpersonal touch is not inherently sexual, and to treat it as such is to make it so."
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/17/kids-petition-agains.ht...
"Interpersonal touch is not inherently sexual, and to treat it as such is to make it so."
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/17/kids-petition-agains.ht...
Nothing to be proud of here, but very recently a huge child pornography case was uncovered in a dutch day care center where a guy molested and filmed the molesting of upwards of 80 children together with his partner.
The case is extreme both in scope, gravity of the offenses, duration and in the position of trust the perpetrators were in and it will take a long long time for that to blow over again.
'Eek A Male' is very much a response heard around daycare centers here.
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=383&sid=2198339
The case is extreme both in scope, gravity of the offenses, duration and in the position of trust the perpetrators were in and it will take a long long time for that to blow over again.
'Eek A Male' is very much a response heard around daycare centers here.
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=383&sid=2198339
A BBC story from 2006? Stories from her friends? That's the best she's got? Would be nice to see a real article on this topic with actual analysis and data.
Of course it's stupid to label all men as possible predators, but there's another side to it: when a single pedophile can damage literally hundreds of children, who wouldn't have cause for concern?
The challenge is to find the level of concern that is reasonable and warranted, but this article can't be bothered with gray areas.
Of course it's stupid to label all men as possible predators, but there's another side to it: when a single pedophile can damage literally hundreds of children, who wouldn't have cause for concern?
The challenge is to find the level of concern that is reasonable and warranted, but this article can't be bothered with gray areas.
I think this is a situation where the votes this story is getting ARE the data.
I imagine many men voting this story up have noticed this trend in their own lives.
It's not hard data, but it shows a trend.
Heck just yesterday I rode an elevator up with 2 parents and their maybe 3 year old kid. The kid had been out in the rain and I made a comment directly to the child about the rain. The parents looked pissed just because I was talking to their kid.
I was just trying to make awkward elevator conversation a little less awkward.
I imagine many men voting this story up have noticed this trend in their own lives.
It's not hard data, but it shows a trend.
Heck just yesterday I rode an elevator up with 2 parents and their maybe 3 year old kid. The kid had been out in the rain and I made a comment directly to the child about the rain. The parents looked pissed just because I was talking to their kid.
I was just trying to make awkward elevator conversation a little less awkward.
I don't disagree with the notion that people overreact to men around kids, but I think the article itself is just a lazy appeal to emotion, and not very well argued.
The BBC story from 2006 seems to be the one older story in there, while at least the first two examples were in the news recently. If this is not enough to make it a "real article with actual analysis and data", most of the stuff that makes soccer moms uneasy to see their kids with random males wouldn't make the cut either.
It's extremely stupid to label all men as possible pedophile, and it's even really stupid to ascribe - to each and every pedophile - the faculty (let alone willingness) to be a predator.
Most children who are abused are abused by close relatives, so (as unpopular as that is) keep a close eye on other family members and your kids' buddies' parents, with a reasonable amount of concern. Teaching your children to fear all and every stranger, or any male adult, will deal considerable psychological damage to them; when a single well-meaning caregiver can damage literally hundreds of children in that way, who wouldn't have cause for concern?
It's extremely stupid to label all men as possible pedophile, and it's even really stupid to ascribe - to each and every pedophile - the faculty (let alone willingness) to be a predator.
Most children who are abused are abused by close relatives, so (as unpopular as that is) keep a close eye on other family members and your kids' buddies' parents, with a reasonable amount of concern. Teaching your children to fear all and every stranger, or any male adult, will deal considerable psychological damage to them; when a single well-meaning caregiver can damage literally hundreds of children in that way, who wouldn't have cause for concern?
While I agree about the lack of supporting evidence for her claims, nothing in the article suggested to me that she isn't concerned about pedophiles, nor do I think this article was really near a gray area at all.
>Of course it's stupid to label all men as possible predators, but there's another side to it: when a single pedophile can damage literally hundreds of children, who wouldn't have cause for concern?
Concern about pedophiles isn't the other side to this. It's related in so far as our concern about pedophiles has turned into a concern about men in general. The only way it could be the other side would be if the majority of pedophiles are men (probably true) AND if a significant amount of men are pedophiles (I don't think I need to cite any references to say this is absolutely false).
It's pretty easy to have concern about pedophiles without having concern about men working with children. In fact, we already have systems in place for this - all teachers are screened before they are hired, for example.
>Of course it's stupid to label all men as possible predators, but there's another side to it: when a single pedophile can damage literally hundreds of children, who wouldn't have cause for concern?
Concern about pedophiles isn't the other side to this. It's related in so far as our concern about pedophiles has turned into a concern about men in general. The only way it could be the other side would be if the majority of pedophiles are men (probably true) AND if a significant amount of men are pedophiles (I don't think I need to cite any references to say this is absolutely false).
It's pretty easy to have concern about pedophiles without having concern about men working with children. In fact, we already have systems in place for this - all teachers are screened before they are hired, for example.
This one really bugged me: "Three airlines, British Airways, Qantas and Air New Zealand, have attracted criticism for controversial seating policies which discriminate against adult male passengers on the basis of their gender." Fortunately BA has changed its policy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_poli...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_poli...
What a fucking horrible way to live :-(
Reminds me of this Reddit post
http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/cf8j9/14_year_old_charg...
3 comments on this, and 200 on some girl whining that (male) geeks "hurt her feelings".
And in two hours, this one will have twice as many comments as that post got over the course of days.
Pedophile-paranoia is a real problem, but let's be clear - if there's anything that will rile HN posters, it's the idea that some straight, white guy somewhere might get a raw deal.
Pedophile-paranoia is a real problem, but let's be clear - if there's anything that will rile HN posters, it's the idea that some straight, white guy somewhere might get a raw deal.
Could just be that the other story actually related to the software industry - it's Hacker news after all. Why the persecution complex?
Link to that? I must have missed it.
Which article are you referring to ?
This one: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2110756
Obv there are more comments here now :-)
Obv there are more comments here now :-)
It's funny how that works - a brand new article not having much commentry. No such thing as confirmation bias, eh?
Oh, come on - he gave it a full eight minutes before complaining that some girl got more attention in a thread on her post.
Just pointing out that men face real, actual discrimination, whereas actually there is nothing preventing women working IT jobs if they want to.
Cry us a river, gaius. If things like this article count as "real, actual discrimination", then pretty much every women-in-tech complaint includes tales of "real, actual discrimination".
I went to the Exploratorium by myself on Sunday. I figured people would probably assume I wasn't there by myself. But I couldn't help thinking about this Asiz Ansari joke where he's talking to a kid at a museum, and finds out they have a lot of things in common, including Call of Duty on xbox, theories about LOST and stuff, and then the kid's dad leaves him there with his new "friend"
I spoke with the director and we both agreed that children spend too much time with women in school and day care. One of the reasons many young boys don't click with school is that they don't get male role models. Children who don't have a "man in the house" might get all the way to high school before they meet any male role models at all.