PG&E turning off power to protect against fire has created a new disaster(slate.com)
slate.com
PG&E turning off power to protect against fire has created a new disaster
https://slate.com/business/2019/10/california-power-outage-pge-fires-new-kind-of-disaster.html
327 comments
It's absolutely crazy reading about these events happening in a first world country in the richest state in that country. Something has gone seriously wrong when we're seeing near-daily stories about power outages in the tech capital of the world. Combined with all the other issues plaguing CA right now, I can't see why companies still base themselves there. Eventually the "all the tech people are there" argument won't be strong enough and competing markets like NYC, Seattle, and Austin will win out.
PG&E is being turned into a witch to hang on the stake. But people are seriously completely missing the real problem.
California is a gigantic tinderbox of mismanaged forests, tons of dead and dry material laying around and with climate change, shit is even drier.
California is going to catch fire whether the power is on or not. A fucking car trailer started one of the major fires last year.
There's at least a decade of completely piss poor forest management responsible without controlled burns and fire breaks to plan for the _naturally destined to occur forest fires_.
I happen to be vacationing in Northern CA this week. We drove up the coast on Hwy 1 then 101 from Oakland to Crescent City. After we left Oakland, we saw no public power for 250 miles. Just a handful of places were open with generators.
There was 1 open gas station for all of Hwy 1. We waited in line an hour.
The economic impact of this event is mind boggling.
There was 1 open gas station for all of Hwy 1. We waited in line an hour.
The economic impact of this event is mind boggling.
I'm not from the USA, is my understanding of this correct?
The power utility is liable for fires caused if a branch blows into its power lines during high winds. So the power utility has chosen to turn off the power in high winds?
The power utility is liable for fires caused if a branch blows into its power lines during high winds. So the power utility has chosen to turn off the power in high winds?
During the first wave of outages for winds up North, PG&E shut off Moraga's power. We had very little winds aloft, but a few hours into the outage, some idiot started a fire with a vape (that's the story) which caused a mini evacuation from our neighborhood at 3AM....IN THE DARK.
Today, while Orinda and Lafayette had no power, we did. Extremely windy today!
The reason our outages are backwards appears to be due to the fact we're a tiny branch off a main line that runs well North of here. They can't turn us down unless they turn all those people down as well.
By my guess our chances of fire are pretty were pretty much a guarantee from this whole thing.
Thanks PG&E.
Today, while Orinda and Lafayette had no power, we did. Extremely windy today!
The reason our outages are backwards appears to be due to the fact we're a tiny branch off a main line that runs well North of here. They can't turn us down unless they turn all those people down as well.
By my guess our chances of fire are pretty were pretty much a guarantee from this whole thing.
Thanks PG&E.
A major part of the issue here is that although PQ&E is a private company, they're heavily regulated by the state. Price controls plus a political mandate to invest in green industry has left it with few resources for maintaining existing infrastructure.
cali has added 10 million people since 1990 but 30% of PG&E's infrastructure is over a century old.
also in the 1990s, deregulation allowed the valuable parts of various electricity companies to be sold off in a classic private equity vulture move, leaving the utilities basically holding the bag on largely crufty shells. the governor said it all:
> Wilson admitted publicly that defects in the deregulation system would need fixing by "the next governor".
it's hard to imagine this ending well. i would advocate for regulatory enforcement via state attorney general election as the most direct /potential/ route for changing things. obviously jailing executives would be more effective, but despite way more deaths than boeing, that seems unlikely.
also in the 1990s, deregulation allowed the valuable parts of various electricity companies to be sold off in a classic private equity vulture move, leaving the utilities basically holding the bag on largely crufty shells. the governor said it all:
> Wilson admitted publicly that defects in the deregulation system would need fixing by "the next governor".
it's hard to imagine this ending well. i would advocate for regulatory enforcement via state attorney general election as the most direct /potential/ route for changing things. obviously jailing executives would be more effective, but despite way more deaths than boeing, that seems unlikely.
Here is an example: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-wildfire/as-wi...
A branch broke and landed on a power line, sparking a fire.
I'm curious what PG&E could do different, it sounds like the tree wasn't even very close to the power line, but wind pushed it.
Turning off power like this during wind-storms might be the permanent new normal.
A branch broke and landed on a power line, sparking a fire.
I'm curious what PG&E could do different, it sounds like the tree wasn't even very close to the power line, but wind pushed it.
Turning off power like this during wind-storms might be the permanent new normal.
Given that we lost cell coverage as well as power. Really regretting the Tesla after 3 days without power.
Could this disaster be turned into an opportunity? Could it spur decentralized approached to energy creation, such as solar with a power wall?
California has so many inventive people and access to capital. Maybe this could be the impetus that would let them and us kick the hydrocarbon habit.
California has so many inventive people and access to capital. Maybe this could be the impetus that would let them and us kick the hydrocarbon habit.
> It also includes families and individuals who live paycheck to paycheck and can barely afford the groceries currently in their fridge, which will likely spoil.
In addition to the financial burden for these families, there's also the potential health impacts of eating spoiled food. Personally, I was hesitant to waste food that my wife had just purchased a few days prior. My stomach disagreed with that decision, and I spent most of my Sunday sitting in the bathroom with no power or cell service.
We're now dealing with the question of WHEN to replenish our food. I've also considered purchasing a generator for just powering the fridge. But, this is all new and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
In addition to the financial burden for these families, there's also the potential health impacts of eating spoiled food. Personally, I was hesitant to waste food that my wife had just purchased a few days prior. My stomach disagreed with that decision, and I spent most of my Sunday sitting in the bathroom with no power or cell service.
We're now dealing with the question of WHEN to replenish our food. I've also considered purchasing a generator for just powering the fridge. But, this is all new and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
> every mile of power line that’s been shut off needs to be inspected visually, by foot or vehicle or air. [...] The work can’t be done in the dark.
Can a sense current be run through the idle lines, to detect ground faults before going back to full power?
Can a sense current be run through the idle lines, to detect ground faults before going back to full power?
I'm not sure what you expected, holding a company liable. Expect it to reduce its own liability.
The 'new kind of disaster' is just what you would expect from no electricity - dialysis, medicine in general, poor people having their remaining food spoil, etc. Saved you a click.
Time to start burying the powerlines fellow Californians.
What if the reason PG&E is turning off the power is not because they are concerned about their lines starting fires, but that they are being scapegoated by the state of California for damage resulting from poor public policy relating to fire dangers?
The predictions of a future with large amounts of fires go back quite a ways, and there is some evidence to suggest that native Indians took measures to limit the spread of wildfires. Even if it is assumed that PG&E equipment starts a fire, the exceptional damage caused by the fire is the result of the poor management policies.
I've drifted around on my opinions on this whole matter, but currently I find that PG&E is working to steer clear of lawsuits, nothing else.
The predictions of a future with large amounts of fires go back quite a ways, and there is some evidence to suggest that native Indians took measures to limit the spread of wildfires. Even if it is assumed that PG&E equipment starts a fire, the exceptional damage caused by the fire is the result of the poor management policies.
I've drifted around on my opinions on this whole matter, but currently I find that PG&E is working to steer clear of lawsuits, nothing else.
Building powerlines that can cause fires if something this easy can cause it shouldn’t be legal. Would you be ok with having your electronic devices set on fire because you dropped it or something easy?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/revolutionary-california-115723...
Revolutionary California
Wall Street Journal ^ | October 29, 2019 | Holman W. Jenkins
...
The wildfire crisis is ultimately the product of a state politics controlled by interest groups whose agenda has drifted out of any cognizable relationship with the daily well-being of the state’s average citizen.
Because California accounts for less than 1% of global emissions, nothing it does will make a difference to climate, but its ratepayers shell out billions for wind and solar that might be better spent on fireproofing. A generation of ill-judged environmental activism has all but ended forest management in favor of letting dead trees and underbrush build up because it’s more “natural.” At the same time, residents resist any natural or planned fires that would consume this tinder before it gives rise to conflagrations like those now menacing Los Angeles and San Francisco.
An activist state Supreme Court imposed on utilities responsibility for any wildfires started by their equipment regardless of negligence. At the same time, state policy obliges them to extend their networks to support housing developments in areas the state designates as “very high fire risk.”
California’s activist one-party government, with its penchant for pretending to be a national government in relation to the hot-button issues of the left, is where all these roads end. Elites subsidize electric cars for themselves while promoting zoning that forces lower-income workers to commute three hours to a job or live in their cars. PG&E can’t keep trees off its power lines but can supply exact numbers for how many LGBTQ workers it employs.
...
The wildfire crisis is ultimately the product of a state politics controlled by interest groups whose agenda has drifted out of any cognizable relationship with the daily well-being of the state’s average citizen.
Because California accounts for less than 1% of global emissions, nothing it does will make a difference to climate, but its ratepayers shell out billions for wind and solar that might be better spent on fireproofing. A generation of ill-judged environmental activism has all but ended forest management in favor of letting dead trees and underbrush build up because it’s more “natural.” At the same time, residents resist any natural or planned fires that would consume this tinder before it gives rise to conflagrations like those now menacing Los Angeles and San Francisco.
An activist state Supreme Court imposed on utilities responsibility for any wildfires started by their equipment regardless of negligence. At the same time, state policy obliges them to extend their networks to support housing developments in areas the state designates as “very high fire risk.”
California’s activist one-party government, with its penchant for pretending to be a national government in relation to the hot-button issues of the left, is where all these roads end. Elites subsidize electric cars for themselves while promoting zoning that forces lower-income workers to commute three hours to a job or live in their cars. PG&E can’t keep trees off its power lines but can supply exact numbers for how many LGBTQ workers it employs.
How does routing work in these power lines? Is it similar to a network where you can route around problematic hubs? So if there is a line going through 4 miles of trees, you can just turn that part off... not the whole county?
Climate change is worsening the droughts that cause fires as well as the winds that spread them. Turning off the electricity is one of the only ways until are the transmission lines are buried. But it might be safe to say every residence and apartment building etc should have a battery back up anyway and renewable energy installed. If this were so grid electricity would be a moot point and technically we would not be dependent on grid electricity.
Surely at this point the state has emergency powers to nationalise PG&E and seize control altogether. Why hasn’t that happened yet?
Yeah, it’s really going to suck as we come to the collective realization that the impact modern life has on the environment is going to encroach on - modern life. PG&E’s actions are the leading edge of what will be a growing trend of inconveniences. Demonizing them is living in denial. We are all culpable.
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Don't see many people talking about the additional environmental impact this is causing from people running generators nonstop.
PG&E should be buying everyone in their area solar panels and battery backups. That'd help alleviate a lot of the problems - and probably be cheaper in the long run.
PG&E should be buying everyone in their area solar panels and battery backups. That'd help alleviate a lot of the problems - and probably be cheaper in the long run.
Pre-emptive blackouts have now cost me over $1k.
Archived copy without GDPR nag screen:
https://web.archive.org/web/20191009215000/https://slate.com...
https://web.archive.org/web/20191009215000/https://slate.com...
The level of political demagoguery surrounding this is really shocking. Gavin Newsom is blaming “dog eat dog capitalism” and “corporate greed” for the wildfires: https://www.sfchronicle.com/california-wildfires/article/New...
Of course, PG&E is the kind of regulated entity people like Newsom wish all corporations were. Private investors put up the capital to build and maintain the electric grid. The government, through the California Public Utility Commission, tells them what to spend it on: https://www.pge.com/en_US/about-pge/company-information/regu.... The CPUC reviews PG&E’s proposed expenditures and approves the resulting electric rates. The CPUC then allows PG&E to set rates high enough to recover a 10% profit on that expenditure.[1]
Under that regime, PG&E’s incentive is to spend more money gold plating the electric grid. The more it spends, the more profit it makes. The reason PG&E didn’t spend more money on wild fire safety is because the CPUC is run by political appointees and they have strong incentives to keep electric rates low in the short term. (This is a common problem with rate regulated utilities. They underinvest in infrastructure because voters demand low rates for electric, water, etc.)
Now of course, California doesn’t have the money to build its own electric grid. So Newsom is calling on Buffett to bail out PG&E. I.e. let different private investors take in the risk and expense of the CPUC’s years of short sighted behavior.
And, of course, this is the kind of thing that only happens in America, and maybe some third world countries. Not because Europe doesn’t have investor owned utilities. They are common. Some of the largest grid operators in Germany are private companies. Rather, it seems to be the result of the unique political dysfunction in the US. American politicians and their voters live in a fantasy land where they can literally say the grass is blue and the sky is green because that fits into their narratives about the world.
[1] That’s about what it works out to. It’s a more complicated rate return calculation: https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/uploadedFiles/CPUCWebsite/Content/Ab....
Of course, PG&E is the kind of regulated entity people like Newsom wish all corporations were. Private investors put up the capital to build and maintain the electric grid. The government, through the California Public Utility Commission, tells them what to spend it on: https://www.pge.com/en_US/about-pge/company-information/regu.... The CPUC reviews PG&E’s proposed expenditures and approves the resulting electric rates. The CPUC then allows PG&E to set rates high enough to recover a 10% profit on that expenditure.[1]
Under that regime, PG&E’s incentive is to spend more money gold plating the electric grid. The more it spends, the more profit it makes. The reason PG&E didn’t spend more money on wild fire safety is because the CPUC is run by political appointees and they have strong incentives to keep electric rates low in the short term. (This is a common problem with rate regulated utilities. They underinvest in infrastructure because voters demand low rates for electric, water, etc.)
Now of course, California doesn’t have the money to build its own electric grid. So Newsom is calling on Buffett to bail out PG&E. I.e. let different private investors take in the risk and expense of the CPUC’s years of short sighted behavior.
And, of course, this is the kind of thing that only happens in America, and maybe some third world countries. Not because Europe doesn’t have investor owned utilities. They are common. Some of the largest grid operators in Germany are private companies. Rather, it seems to be the result of the unique political dysfunction in the US. American politicians and their voters live in a fantasy land where they can literally say the grass is blue and the sky is green because that fits into their narratives about the world.
[1] That’s about what it works out to. It’s a more complicated rate return calculation: https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/uploadedFiles/CPUCWebsite/Content/Ab....
Direct link to article:
https://slate.com/business/2019/10/california-power-outage-p...
https://slate.com/business/2019/10/california-power-outage-p...