Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49306032
300 コメント
I am not a lawyer, but @klasfeldreports on twitter quotes an unnamed legal source who says:
"Background: An important note after Epstein's death: no one else will have standing to challenge the search warrant on his house. Everything will be admissible against any other defendant without possibility of a motion to suppress."
So maybe this will be a net good for justice?
"Background: An important note after Epstein's death: no one else will have standing to challenge the search warrant on his house. Everything will be admissible against any other defendant without possibility of a motion to suppress."
So maybe this will be a net good for justice?
I think that's the best-case scenario, and the worst case looks more like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux#Deaths_of_potenti...
Even the public prosecutor was suddenly overwhelmed by sadness and took his life during the investigation. Hats off to anyone who dares to touch high-profile pedophilia cases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux#Deaths_of_potenti...
Even the public prosecutor was suddenly overwhelmed by sadness and took his life during the investigation. Hats off to anyone who dares to touch high-profile pedophilia cases.
> So maybe this will be a net good for justice?
It would have been admissible against anyone but Epstein even if Epstein hadn't died, and further warrants derived from information discovered through it (including reseizure of the same evidence under a new warrant) wouldn't, as I understand it, be precluded unless it was to be used against Epstein, all for the same reason that the right to object dies with Epstein, so it does nothing for justice except preventing any Constitutional violation from even being recognized, which is a net loss, not a win.
It would have been admissible against anyone but Epstein even if Epstein hadn't died, and further warrants derived from information discovered through it (including reseizure of the same evidence under a new warrant) wouldn't, as I understand it, be precluded unless it was to be used against Epstein, all for the same reason that the right to object dies with Epstein, so it does nothing for justice except preventing any Constitutional violation from even being recognized, which is a net loss, not a win.
That is too much for one sentence. More sentences would read easier.
He's a lawyer, it's part of the tradecraft.
dragonwriter is a laywer? Must have graduated recently. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16171225
I think that was sarcasm
I'm not a lawyer. I did do a few years of law school, but I wrote that way long before that, so that's not why...
Maybe. One hopes this can be salvaged. I guess we may never know who was behind it all pulling the levers. Mr Epstein can’t have been at the top.
What? The guy supposedly had $500 million to his name. That can buy quite a lot of levers.
Epstein was quite plausibly the chief procurer; he no doubt had a wife array of powerful clients, but there's not a lot of reason to think there was a higher-level mastermind behind Epstein in the procurement operation.
Epstein comes off as an unhinged individual. With a mansion full of sex art, a normal reaction would be “we should have known in retrospect”, not a sweetheart plea deal.
> Epstein comes off as an unhinged individual. With a mansion full of sex art, a normal reaction would be “we should have known in retrospect”, not a sweetheart plea deal.
That Epstein had politically powerful clients and friends is not in serious dispute (which were clients and which were merely friends unconnected to his child rape business is somewhat less clear), and explains the sweetheart plea deal without resort to some behind-Epstein mastermind.
It's not impossible, but there is nothing that is explained more easily by such a mastermind than by the Epstein being the master of his own sex trade operation which garnered him influence (simply heading that operation means he has powerful blackmail material on powerful people.)
That Epstein had politically powerful clients and friends is not in serious dispute (which were clients and which were merely friends unconnected to his child rape business is somewhat less clear), and explains the sweetheart plea deal without resort to some behind-Epstein mastermind.
It's not impossible, but there is nothing that is explained more easily by such a mastermind than by the Epstein being the master of his own sex trade operation which garnered him influence (simply heading that operation means he has powerful blackmail material on powerful people.)
I suggest reading the book October Surprise by Gary Sick. Intelligence agencies don’t use competent people.
Your understanding of the situation is incorrect, and is leading you to incorrect conclusions.
Your understanding of the situation is incorrect, and is leading you to incorrect conclusions.
> I suggest reading the book October Surprise by Gary Sick. Intelligence agencies don’t use competent people.
They use incompetent people who can be manipulated into believing they have common interests and competent people who believe in their own that they have common interests, but, yes, they often use incompetent people. The relevance of this observation is unclear, as it still presents no existing phenomenon that requires a shady superior to Epstein to explain.
> Your understanding of the situation is incorrect.
You have as yet provided no way in which my understanding is incorrect.
They use incompetent people who can be manipulated into believing they have common interests and competent people who believe in their own that they have common interests, but, yes, they often use incompetent people. The relevance of this observation is unclear, as it still presents no existing phenomenon that requires a shady superior to Epstein to explain.
> Your understanding of the situation is incorrect.
You have as yet provided no way in which my understanding is incorrect.
Looking at Epstein’s life seems incredible.
It is so incredible it is beyond my understanding.
But you claim to understand it, which is also very much beyond me.
But you are right, more so than you think, I cannot provide a way for you to understand something I don’t understand.
It is so incredible it is beyond my understanding.
But you claim to understand it, which is also very much beyond me.
But you are right, more so than you think, I cannot provide a way for you to understand something I don’t understand.
But his death also ends the criminal case against him, no one else was charged in the indictment. Why act on a warrant for a case that has ended? I’m definitely not an expert in criminal justice proceedings though.
> But his death also ends the criminal case against him, no one else was charged in the indictment.
If there were related parallel investigations, they could either still be before a grand jury, not yet have been submitted to a grand jury, or already had indictments issued but under seal. The fact that no one else was charged in the Epstein indictment does not mean there is no one else in a related matter against whom an investigation and/or (sealed) charges exist, which, if from no other source, the public coverage of all the investigations around Trump should have made everyone familiar with recently.
If there were related parallel investigations, they could either still be before a grand jury, not yet have been submitted to a grand jury, or already had indictments issued but under seal. The fact that no one else was charged in the Epstein indictment does not mean there is no one else in a related matter against whom an investigation and/or (sealed) charges exist, which, if from no other source, the public coverage of all the investigations around Trump should have made everyone familiar with recently.
Do you really think there isn't a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves? It's a bit too obvious to be called a conspiracy.
I've been thinking lately about what people will and won't be skeptical about. All the horrifying stories coming from escapees from north korea, for instance, are accepted without any real scrutany. But if there is a class of powerful people that publically executes people by steam roller, why is it so hard to believe there could be a network of child sex trafficing for a powerful class of people here? Or if a child sex ring is too outlandish, why believe in the stories about north korea? Is it down to diplomatic relations? Should that be a factor?
It isn't the magnitude of evil but the remoteness - we know about life in the United States. We don't know many details about a secretive repressive nation. There are also flaws about 'requiring far too many people to keep a secret' and some major 'game theory'. Now it is a matter of fact that he was involved with sex trafficking and corruption but there were plenty of reasons to doubt.
The story hit upon a number of other discredited conspiracy tropes and archetypes. A network of child sex traffickers resembles too much 'orderly world' conspiracy theorist family. Where there is some vast conspiracy to blame for everything wrong with the world but there is at least someone behind it and some concrete goal to 'fix it'. As opposed to a chaotic real world where there is nothing that can be done about it - sometimes some nut-job decides to do something really scary like kill the president or shoot up schools.
Not to mention the anti-semetic tropes hit upon by it when there was a simpler explanation for his contact with high level people - he was rich. Being a donor would have explained it far easier than a sex trafficking conspiracy before concrete evidence.
Frankly the 'believers' of the story did more to make less believable than any amount of spin-doctors with things like drawing tenuous connections to anyone who ever met the guy being a pedophile.
The story hit upon a number of other discredited conspiracy tropes and archetypes. A network of child sex traffickers resembles too much 'orderly world' conspiracy theorist family. Where there is some vast conspiracy to blame for everything wrong with the world but there is at least someone behind it and some concrete goal to 'fix it'. As opposed to a chaotic real world where there is nothing that can be done about it - sometimes some nut-job decides to do something really scary like kill the president or shoot up schools.
Not to mention the anti-semetic tropes hit upon by it when there was a simpler explanation for his contact with high level people - he was rich. Being a donor would have explained it far easier than a sex trafficking conspiracy before concrete evidence.
Frankly the 'believers' of the story did more to make less believable than any amount of spin-doctors with things like drawing tenuous connections to anyone who ever met the guy being a pedophile.
No one doubts that there people who would do it, it is more about how widespread criminal networks could be without blowing up.
If this guy attempted suicide before, shouldn't there be a permanent camera affixed to his jail cell (beside having a guard watch him)? If that is the case then we should have the video footage of his suicide even if the guard slacked off?
This NYT article hints at what it looks like to be under suicide watch: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
Of course there should, it's common sense. That there is no such standard procedure seems unlikely to be accidental.
This was my first thought too.
The story in the Deus Ex video game series is starting to seem less ridiculous and impromptu, and more like a piece of prophetic media.
The story in the Deus Ex video game series is starting to seem less ridiculous and impromptu, and more like a piece of prophetic media.
Call me naive, but I would simply conclude the jailing facilities are underfunded and unable to prevent someone from committing suicide.
I just can't imagine someone being able to order such a murder. There would be too many people involved and risks of getting caught.
I just can't imagine someone being able to order such a murder. There would be too many people involved and risks of getting caught.
Epstein was supposed to be under 24/7 camera surveillance. But they are saying there was a camera malfunction.
Dunno man it really doesn't add up to a suicide.
Dunno man it really doesn't add up to a suicide.
Malfunction is BS. A proper system would alert of camera offline condition or storage offline, etc.
That seems to be a thus-far unsubstantiated Twitter rumor: https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-camera-malfun...
Whitey Bulger recently got transferred for no stated reason to a prison in West Virginia and within hours of his arrival was beaten to death by an inmate with mafia ties.
Look, even if video evidence emerges of Epstein kicking the chair out from under his own feet, everyone and their dog could see (and predicted repeatedly!) that he was a risk for either murder or suicide while awaiting trial. Given that the case hinted at an unending multitude of victims whose lives were ruined by a sex trafficking ring that involved elites from the very highest echelons of society, to not have a guard watching him at all times, and a guard watching that guard, and another guard watching that guard, displays a level of "incompetence" or "tight resources" that simply beggars belief.
We are basically presented with a potential conspiracy shoved in our faces and you are worried that people might see a conspiracy there. It’s not an absurd logic.
Definition of the word:
“an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.”
Definition of the word:
“an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.”
To play devils advocate; who doesn’t want to protect themselves and that which they’ve worked for? From the poor who’ve worked hard for the past year to save up for engine for the late 70s truck. To the middle(ish) class who’ve worked hard for their first purchased two bedroom home. To the middle upperclass who’ve gone on a vacation to Branson Missouri. To pretty much everyone with children. To the ultra wealthy that are worth seven figures and up. Everyone wants to protect what they feel they’ve worked hard for. That includes the proposed ultra wealthy that have the means to insure they aren’t pulled into Epstein’s legal whirlpool.
If it exists, it makes sense they would protect themselves.
If it exists, it makes sense they would protect themselves.
Ok but by looking out for yourself it’s typically and socially accepted and expected you’re not going to do grievous direct harm to other parties.
To the ultra-rich, "other parties" are other ultra-rich people. Everyone else is just an insect. I mean that in the most visceral way possible, the ultra-rich view us with contempt.
edit: This is why Bernie Madoff went to prison and why basically no one went to jail over the 2008 GFC. Madoff stole from his own social class, which is a big no-no.
edit: This is why Bernie Madoff went to prison and why basically no one went to jail over the 2008 GFC. Madoff stole from his own social class, which is a big no-no.
A couple years ago I listened to a college course from The Teaching Company called 'Explaining Social Deviance.' It analyzed deviant behavior in a multitude of different societies and contexts, going through history and modern day across the globe, examining what behavior societies found deviant, what they do about it, how they attempt to stop it, etc. When the social scientists researching the topic studied the upper class, they realized that crime could not be classified as 'deviant' in that social context. It was accepted, expected, and universal. Restraint from criminal activity was actually what was deviant.
Despite the fact that white collar crime does more economic damage and even kills more people every year than street crime, it is punished very rarely and then typically only lightly. That's a social issue, and the majority of society are complicit in it, fighting for tougher laws to control the middle and lower class while fighting against substantial penalties for crime committed by the upper class. The Protestant Work Ethic says that hard work, endurance of suffering, and virtuous character is the only way to wealth, so the public presumes that is how the wealthy got wealthy. It is almost never true, however.
Despite the fact that white collar crime does more economic damage and even kills more people every year than street crime, it is punished very rarely and then typically only lightly. That's a social issue, and the majority of society are complicit in it, fighting for tougher laws to control the middle and lower class while fighting against substantial penalties for crime committed by the upper class. The Protestant Work Ethic says that hard work, endurance of suffering, and virtuous character is the only way to wealth, so the public presumes that is how the wealthy got wealthy. It is almost never true, however.
Madoff stole from his own social class, which is a big no-no.
I don’t think that analysis tells the whole story. Elizabeth Holmes got away with a slapped wrist despite defrauding some very, very powerful people.
Whereas Shkreli got jail despite returning every penny to his investors.
I don’t think that analysis tells the whole story. Elizabeth Holmes got away with a slapped wrist despite defrauding some very, very powerful people.
Whereas Shkreli got jail despite returning every penny to his investors.
> Elizabeth Holmes got away with a slapped wrist despite defrauding some very, very powerful people.
Holmes hasn't gotten away with anything yet. She's been indicted on federal charges, and the trial is expected to begin in 2020. She could end up in prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Holmes#Criminal_char...
Holmes hasn't gotten away with anything yet. She's been indicted on federal charges, and the trial is expected to begin in 2020. She could end up in prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Holmes#Criminal_char...
Shkreli didn't "return every penny to his investors". He stole money from one group to pay another group. Yes all of his investors ended up in the green eventually (because some underlying businesses were profitable), but that doesn't change the fact that he defrauded a lot of people and not "every penny" was paid back.
For example, if you invest money in a profitable business and the CEO skims a little bit off the top, you might end up making money despite that you were defrauded off some of your gains.
For example, if you invest money in a profitable business and the CEO skims a little bit off the top, you might end up making money despite that you were defrauded off some of your gains.
Technically Elizabeth Holmes hasn't yet gone to trial. The consequences for her aren't quite decided on yet.
That's the ideal and the law, but in practice it's not that uncommon for people do grievous direct harm to other parties, when they think they can get away with it.
Nice. Now play devil’s advocate to explain why it’s actually good to be involved in a global pedophilia ring.
[deleted]
Why dismiss as conspiracy-minded those who raise the possibility of foul play?
People have been socially conditioned to do this - not necessarily intentionally, it may have just happened naturally, but this is how right thinking people are to behave.
> This will only inflame conspiracy theory minded people to believe there is a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves.
I'll do you one better. Is he really even dead, or did he pull a Ken Lay?
I'll do you one better. Is he really even dead, or did he pull a Ken Lay?
It could have been suicide, as in the parties who did not want him to talk may have arranged for everything he needed to end his life by himself. Of course, it is also possible it was not just suicide. Guess we will never know.
>This will only inflame conspiracy theory minded people to believe there is a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves.
How is that a conspiracy?
How is that a conspiracy?
'Conspiracy' is not synonymous with 'untrue'. I'd advise everyone in the comments to keep that in mind, and state things unambiguously, to avoid arguing past each-other.
I've been curious why "conspiracy theory" is used exclusively as a pejorative. Turns out that Wikipedia defines it as such:
> A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful actors, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable.
But who gets to define what is more probable? Why not just "when there is no proof (yet)"? But I guess that battle and term are lost.
> A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful actors, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable.
But who gets to define what is more probable? Why not just "when there is no proof (yet)"? But I guess that battle and term are lost.
[deleted]
Which raises the question - how do you describe an explanation that justifiably (or at least plausibly) relies on conspiracy?
You generally refer to named actors as 'conspiring together'. The definition of a 'conspiracy theory' is almost dependant on the actors being unknown or unconfirmed, and thus isn't a provable act of conspiracy versus an implausible crazyness.
Well people in that sphere were already predicting he’d “commit” suicide to avoid getting powerful people ensnared.
[deleted]
What I mean is that I don't think that's a conspiracy, it's reasonable to think that in the world elites they look after each other
If you believe that when the elite "look after each other" they abuse their power in illegal and unethical ways, then technically you're a "conspiracy theorist" along with the vast majority of the population.
Edit: And the story has been removed from the HN front page, despite being one of the most popular...
Edit: And the story has been removed from the HN front page, despite being one of the most popular...
Well, it just happened.
That’s literally “conspiring together”. That’s all conspiracy means. It means some occurrence wasn’t just a fluke action of luck or even of just one guy. It was a group of people “conspiring” together. Think JFK. Did a group conspire? Or was it just Oswald?
That’s the very definition of conspiracy:
“a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.”
“a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.”
There’s more than one angle to conspiracy theories as well. Was it a “hit” by the powerful protecting themselves or, did he have a dead man’s switch on incriminating others and it’s a fake and he’s been broken out of prison?
There’s so much to work with here that it’s going to go on for years.
There’s so much to work with here that it’s going to go on for years.
Wow. I don’t think I have seen a situation before where Occam’s razor doesn’t help writing off the conspiracy. It seems harder in this case to believe someone in a jail cell on suicide watch kills themselves than to believe that it was arranged (that is, at least “allowed”). It’s suspiciously sloppy.
The linked article says its unclear if he was actually on suicide watch: "There are reports that Epstein was placed on suicide watch following [his earlier suicide attempt], although this has not been confirmed by officials"
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
> Mr. Epstein had been on suicide watch after he was found injured on July 23 and received a daily psychiatric evaluation, according to a person familiar with his detention. He was removed from suicide watch on July 29 and returned to the special housing unit, a segregated area of the prison with extra security, this person said.
> The authorities did not immediately explain why he was taken off suicide watch. The F.B.I. said it was investigating, and Attorney General William P. Barr said in a statement that a special inquiry would be opened into what had happened.
> Mr. Epstein had been on suicide watch after he was found injured on July 23 and received a daily psychiatric evaluation, according to a person familiar with his detention. He was removed from suicide watch on July 29 and returned to the special housing unit, a segregated area of the prison with extra security, this person said.
> The authorities did not immediately explain why he was taken off suicide watch. The F.B.I. said it was investigating, and Attorney General William P. Barr said in a statement that a special inquiry would be opened into what had happened.
So, after the guy attempted suicide, and is facing a massively embarrassing scrutiny of his sex life, they decided not to put him on suicide watch? That's nearly as suspicious as dying on suicide watch.
True, there are very little details yet. But tbh if he was not protected like a mob witness then that’s even sloppier.
People "on suicide watch" die all the time. It's not super rare.
One of CNN's legal analysts said in a tweet [0] that he can't recall hearing of any successful suicides happening in the prison where Epstein was detained.
I tried searching for reports or information about other suicides in Metropolitan Correctional Center - New York (MCC-NY) but wasn't able to find examples in the news. Admittedly, I didn't dig very deep and I'm completely unfamiliar with this domain. If you know of any sources showing examples of successful suicides in MCC-NY then I would be interested in learning about them.
Ideally we could review the prison's records for successful and unsuccessful suicides when on suicide watch and during regular imprisonment. The Bureau of Justice Statistics website [1] looks like it should have relevant data on this, but I'm too tired to sift through their reports tonight.
[0] https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status/1160224228232355841
[1] https://www.bjs.gov
I tried searching for reports or information about other suicides in Metropolitan Correctional Center - New York (MCC-NY) but wasn't able to find examples in the news. Admittedly, I didn't dig very deep and I'm completely unfamiliar with this domain. If you know of any sources showing examples of successful suicides in MCC-NY then I would be interested in learning about them.
Ideally we could review the prison's records for successful and unsuccessful suicides when on suicide watch and during regular imprisonment. The Bureau of Justice Statistics website [1] looks like it should have relevant data on this, but I'm too tired to sift through their reports tonight.
[0] https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status/1160224228232355841
[1] https://www.bjs.gov
> One of CNN's legal analysts said in a tweet [0] that he can't recall hearing of any successful suicides happening in the prison where Epstein was detained.
We need to be clear how they define suicide, which may not include all self-inflicted death.
We need to be clear how they define suicide, which may not include all self-inflicted death.
It's not super common either. He was a very high profile criminal, but also a potential witness against very high profile people. Special precautions should have been taken.
And he was under 24/7 camera surveillance. If it was a clean suicide there should be video evidence.
And wouldn't you know it? "Oops, camera malfunction. We'll investigate that, too..."
That's indeed what happened.
I believe you, but could you cite a source on there being a camera and it malfunctioning? Because damn, this is just getting truly impossible to believe it was just a suicide.
I shouldn't have affirm it. @michaelcoudrey tweeted it yesterday, without a source, and others followed.
Right, but "not super common" isn't "this is impossible".
See eg Fred West.
See eg Fred West.
Neither is corruption.
Name two.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/art...
> Suicides between 23.00 h and 07.00 h are rare, and these overwhelmingly occur under intermittent observations. Such observation is purely a defensive intervention to document that a patient is safe at a particular time, as there is no engagement.
I work with anonymised data. If you want actual names I'm going to have to trawl through coroner's reports.
Or you could have a look at this, which says about 18 patients per year in the UK: https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=37570
> Suicides between 23.00 h and 07.00 h are rare, and these overwhelmingly occur under intermittent observations. Such observation is purely a defensive intervention to document that a patient is safe at a particular time, as there is no engagement.
I work with anonymised data. If you want actual names I'm going to have to trawl through coroner's reports.
Or you could have a look at this, which says about 18 patients per year in the UK: https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=37570
The UK and US have very different prison systems and prison protocols. I don't think their numbers can be compared.
Additionally, Epstein was under suicide watch. Which should have made suicide practically impossible without outside intervention. Given the money and power at play here, murder made to look like a suicide is a very real possibility.
Additionally, Epstein was under suicide watch. Which should have made suicide practically impossible without outside intervention. Given the money and power at play here, murder made to look like a suicide is a very real possibility.
Please read the links I supply which talk about patients in a hospital, but importantly these are patients under "suicide watch" -- this is what intermittent or continuous obs are for, to prevent suicide and self harm.
People in this thread don't know what "suicide watch means". They seem to think it's 24 hour continuous monitoring.
It may mean someone looks through a door hatch once every 15 minutes.
But also, he may not have been on suicide watch: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
People in this thread don't know what "suicide watch means". They seem to think it's 24 hour continuous monitoring.
It may mean someone looks through a door hatch once every 15 minutes.
But also, he may not have been on suicide watch: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
I can only talk about Swedish jails, but suicide attempts where People are held before prosecution and before sentencing (called arrest and häkte) are common enough. Just random googling gives me this: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sjalvmordsforsok-sker-var...
Saying that there is a suicide attempt every week in Swedish "Häkte", meaning about 52 attempts per year with an average of 9000 people in "häkte" over the course of one year. And that is only in the cases where people are actually prosecuted. There are lots of mentions of suicides in "arrest" as well.
Saying that there is a suicide attempt every week in Swedish "Häkte", meaning about 52 attempts per year with an average of 9000 people in "häkte" over the course of one year. And that is only in the cases where people are actually prosecuted. There are lots of mentions of suicides in "arrest" as well.
[deleted]
These headlines...
"Financier"
Everything I have read since this came out states no one has any idea how/where Epstein made his money. And yet, the headlines read "Financier." Not convicted criminal. Suspected sex trafficker, rapist, pedophile, or anything of that nature.
Everything about Epstein and this case shows the insane power imbalance between those at the top of our society and everyone else.
"Financier"
Everything I have read since this came out states no one has any idea how/where Epstein made his money. And yet, the headlines read "Financier." Not convicted criminal. Suspected sex trafficker, rapist, pedophile, or anything of that nature.
Everything about Epstein and this case shows the insane power imbalance between those at the top of our society and everyone else.
In the press, the alleged victims were "young women" - not "minors" or "underaged". The difference in reporting is amazing to behold.
There is a term for that.
Somehow 4chan knew it before media reported it: https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/222518349/
cops and prison guards are /b/ros and anons too.
we even had a revelation regarding a certain closed FB group that was popular with certain CBP members, it was very much in the spirit of 4chan and 8chan/pol/
I was expecting to see conspiracy theories due to the assorted powerful and wealthy people Epstein has been linked with, but really think about it. He was a wealthy man who lived a pampered lifestyle and had largely escaped consequences for his actions in the past but was unlikely to do so in this case. He was looking at spending the rest of his life not just in prison but as something of a pariah in prison (wealthy, privileged, child abuser). He'd attempted suicide previously and if that was an attempt on his life he had ample opportunity to say so.
As far as the suicide watch, sure he was high profile but he was in jail awaiting trial and there are probably plenty of people put on suicide watch. The jail doesn't have the resources to monitor everyone 24/7, and frankly regular checks are probably plenty to catch or prevent most attempts.
As far as the suicide watch, sure he was high profile but he was in jail awaiting trial and there are probably plenty of people put on suicide watch. The jail doesn't have the resources to monitor everyone 24/7, and frankly regular checks are probably plenty to catch or prevent most attempts.
Hanging yourself takes material and a room where you can tie it up. Suicide watch is supposed to involve access to neither. That's a more important component than someone watching you occasionally.
There are strict regulations around jail suicide watch, somebody must be observing at all times: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/552.42
Seems pretty inexplicable to me how he could outsmart seasoned professionals explicitly tasked with preventing his suicide.
Seems pretty inexplicable to me how he could outsmart seasoned professionals explicitly tasked with preventing his suicide.
So, you're saying that there is no suicide watch really, even for the blatantly violently suicidal who have just made a suicide attempt?
Remember - cells have video cameras, or at least - certainly suicide watch cells do, and people glance at these camera, you would think, every few minutes. Was Epstein the fastest noose-maker-and-hanger in the world?
Remember - cells have video cameras, or at least - certainly suicide watch cells do, and people glance at these camera, you would think, every few minutes. Was Epstein the fastest noose-maker-and-hanger in the world?
A lot of people talking about how hard it would be for him to kill himself and conspiracy stuff, but if there is a conspiracy then I think it's just as likely that Epstein could use his immense resources and connections to make sure that someone was looking the other way when he attempted.
It certainly could be a murder, but I'm not quite as convinced as other people seem... I'm sure it's very convenient for lots of his ghoulish friends, but it also makes a lot of sense that he would do anything necessary to get out of facing his crimes and the surrounding media circus.
It certainly could be a murder, but I'm not quite as convinced as other people seem... I'm sure it's very convenient for lots of his ghoulish friends, but it also makes a lot of sense that he would do anything necessary to get out of facing his crimes and the surrounding media circus.
> Epstein could use his immense resources and connections to make sure that someone was looking the other way when he attempted.
If we're entering conspiracy theory territory, why couldn't Epstein use said resources and connections to find a lookalike/prop artist, buy people and fake his own suicide?
If we're entering conspiracy theory territory, why couldn't Epstein use said resources and connections to find a lookalike/prop artist, buy people and fake his own suicide?
It’s not actually a conspiracy theory to suggest that — all that’s required is ordinary corruption.
Another possibility that doesn't require a conspiracy theory: Epstein's death is fake but blatantly obvious because he agreed to be a protected witness.
That's also a conspiracy theory...
A conspiracy theory is just a theory that a group is conspiring without the knowledge of others. In this case, the conspiring group is the one faking the death.
A conspiracy theory is just a theory that a group is conspiring without the knowledge of others. In this case, the conspiring group is the one faking the death.
I never thought of the witness protection program as a conspiracy, but I guess it fits.
Paraphrase from someone I saw on Twitter (can't find now):
Most people have already jumped to the conclusion that he was murdered. That's child's play for conspiracy theorists.
The real conspiracy theory is he faked his death!
Most people have already jumped to the conclusion that he was murdered. That's child's play for conspiracy theorists.
The real conspiracy theory is he faked his death!
The current theory is that they faked his death, they switched someone with him, who will get cremated very soon. The NY Post photo of him showed a different guy, and the meds looked also very suspicious.
Both are fairly likely, but one is easier to pull off than the other.
Classic. Thanks for the laugh, even if it’s HHOS.
What a waste. May none mourn this creature's passing, but his particular case represented too many valuable opportunities for him to be allowed to die before trial.
Whoever allowed enough of a lapse in his suicide watch that the concept of him being "found" at all even makes sense should be fired and sued for gross malfeasance.
Whoever allowed enough of a lapse in his suicide watch that the concept of him being "found" at all even makes sense should be fired and sued for gross malfeasance.
Even then they would only be getting another little guy, and not the malicious party.
True, but honestly, with so many people clearly after him, I'm not sure we can assume any of them got him. His psyche had clearly been cracking for many weeks now: I got as much sadistic pleasure as anyone else out of watching him basically flat-out break down and beg the judge for a chance to flee. We already know he'd tried to kill himself once before any of his long list of enemies could get their hands on him. If he was indeed "found dead", then yeah, it's fun to joke that he was clearly hanged 37 times by the CIA, the Clintons, Hollywood, MI6, MIT, the Russians, Trump, and at least two alien species, but I don't think we can discount the possibility that he simply siezed on the next opportunity to beat any of them to the punch.
He should have gotten that horrible 24-hour naked suicide watch thing that Manning got, all the way until trial. Certainly he demonstrated better need for it.
He should have gotten that horrible 24-hour naked suicide watch thing that Manning got, all the way until trial. Certainly he demonstrated better need for it.
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/rule-o...
Predicted by Martin Armstrong
Predicted by Martin Armstrong
Literally thousands of people predicted this. I fully expected it to happen, as did every person I talked to about this case.
Ouch.
Not saying this should be taken without a grain of salt but I think they argue their point somewhat well.
Not saying this should be taken without a grain of salt but I think they argue their point somewhat well.
I agree that this was predictable. Which raises the question, could outside observers (e.g. journalists, victims) have prevented this somehow by individually funding more staff to have him observed 24/7?
If he was suicided, it was very well done, and a message sent to everyone who is involved. The message is "if you betray us, we will find and kill you even while you are on suicide watch in jail".
Epstein just didn't seem like a guy who would have a guilty conscience and decide he couldn't handle all any more.
I looked a bit into his case, mainly prompted by articles like these:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20576530
There made the point of connecting Brin to Epstein and other SV tech people, but then Clinton didn't show up to his dinner party once. Hmm. It seems to me like there is a deeper connection to the Clintons since they are going out of their way to distance his from Epstein with such awkward articles.
I guess, maybe those who feel brave enough should see if the prison warden or one of the guards on duty ends up getting some scholarships or trust funds for their children. Or one of them suddenly pays off a large chunk of their mortgage.
Epstein just didn't seem like a guy who would have a guilty conscience and decide he couldn't handle all any more.
I looked a bit into his case, mainly prompted by articles like these:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20576530
There made the point of connecting Brin to Epstein and other SV tech people, but then Clinton didn't show up to his dinner party once. Hmm. It seems to me like there is a deeper connection to the Clintons since they are going out of their way to distance his from Epstein with such awkward articles.
I guess, maybe those who feel brave enough should see if the prison warden or one of the guards on duty ends up getting some scholarships or trust funds for their children. Or one of them suddenly pays off a large chunk of their mortgage.
> Epstein just didn't seem like a guy who would have a guilty conscience and decide he couldn't handle all any more.
He did seem to me like a guy who would take the prospect of a life sentence very badly, though. Based on recent reporting, he seemingly believed that he was going to usher in a new stage of human development through a combination of spreading his own DNA (i.e. impregnating dozens of women) and funding research into genetic engineering, AI, and maybe even ESP. The near-certainty of recent events dooming that project could have been a fatal blow to his ego.
He did seem to me like a guy who would take the prospect of a life sentence very badly, though. Based on recent reporting, he seemingly believed that he was going to usher in a new stage of human development through a combination of spreading his own DNA (i.e. impregnating dozens of women) and funding research into genetic engineering, AI, and maybe even ESP. The near-certainty of recent events dooming that project could have been a fatal blow to his ego.
NYT reports Epstein was taken off suicide watch, and that on suicide watch, he would not have had something to easily hang himself with, plus, he would likely have had a cell-mate to keep him out of trouble.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
So, yup, definitely fishy for him to be taken off suicide watch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
So, yup, definitely fishy for him to be taken off suicide watch.
This happened hours after the latest tranche of documents were made public, documents that named names.
Unfortunately for this community, one of our MIT heros was on that list. Don't even know what to say.
Unfortunately for this community, one of our MIT heros was on that list. Don't even know what to say.
Who was that MIT hero? Do you have a source? Thanks.
I failed to post this the other day (already submitted). Searched HN and it was not here. Probably marked off-topic or similar. When I called it out on an unrelated thread my comment was flagged.
I don't see a mechanism on HN to refute "off-topic" posts.
Marvin Minsky's relationship with Epstein was not of interest to HN readers but Epstein's death is?
Mystifies me…
I don't see a mechanism on HN to refute "off-topic" posts.
Marvin Minsky's relationship with Epstein was not of interest to HN readers but Epstein's death is?
Mystifies me…
It was submitted several times, and instantly flagged to death each time. Disappointing.
It's become clear (to me) over the years that HN, despite it's apparent simplicity, is well curated by astroturfers.
That's the HN shadow banning.
[deleted]
literally heartbreaking
Heartbreaking, but at this point it does not really surprise that people of highly regarded intellect and achievement indulge in such horrible practices while most people around them turn a blind eye. On the other hand we should be wondering if our black and white view of the subject and all the rhetoric about "monsters" only helps promote silence. I believe humanizing the evildoers keeps the rest of humans aware that they too can be evildoers and perhaps backtrack and speak out more easily when they are on the fence.
Edit: Added "and perhaps ..." at the end.
Edit: Added "and perhaps ..." at the end.
It’s only an accusation. It will be up to the justice system to determine if it holds any water (innocent unless..., right?). Terrible for Marvin’s reputation though.
The injustice, is that this very much appears to be a situation where "everyone knew" but no one did anything. So okay, maybe Minsky, Clinton, Trump, or whoever didn't actually rape an underage girl or engage in sex trafficking. But they knew. That's disgusting.
If someone is going to tell you that someone of Bill Clinton's magnitude doesn't know exactly who the person is whose private island he is a guest at--then that person is full of shit.
Powerful people do their due diligence.
P.S. pardon my tone. I know that's out of spirit for HN, but this case...I am mad.
If someone is going to tell you that someone of Bill Clinton's magnitude doesn't know exactly who the person is whose private island he is a guest at--then that person is full of shit.
Powerful people do their due diligence.
P.S. pardon my tone. I know that's out of spirit for HN, but this case...I am mad.
Who says that they actually knew about it? If they just went around telling literally everyone that sounds like a way to get busted even as a low level drug dealer - let alone as a comparative nobody vs a big name - especially with secret service protection. From the perspective of a criminal blackmailer it would make far more sense to probe interests first before getting into it.
If they visited Epstein's island, they knew. You might assume “Pedophile Island” is some cheeky name that the press came up with. But, no, that’s actually it’s name. The people who lived there called it that. If someone went to the island, they had to know.
“Airport workers say they saw teens traveling with Jeffrey Epstein to and from his private island in the Caribbean”
Actual title of a news article.
This is the state of modern journalism, no one confirming a commonly known rumor until the guy is arrested. It takes a village to raise a child, but a nation to ignore it.
Actual title of a news article.
This is the state of modern journalism, no one confirming a commonly known rumor until the guy is arrested. It takes a village to raise a child, but a nation to ignore it.
Clinton and Trump never visited the island. This man was a bullshitter and no doubt he exaggerated the scale of powerful friendships he had.
Clinton visited the island. New documents were unsealed yesterday:
> Bill Clinton: The former president visited Epstein’s private island while Giuffre was there, she claims in one of her depositions. Giuffre stated that Epstein held a dinner for Clinton on the island. (In a statement previously made to Forbes, Clinton denied ever visiting Epstein’s private island.)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/08/09/unseal...
> Bill Clinton: The former president visited Epstein’s private island while Giuffre was there, she claims in one of her depositions. Giuffre stated that Epstein held a dinner for Clinton on the island. (In a statement previously made to Forbes, Clinton denied ever visiting Epstein’s private island.)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2019/08/09/unseal...
The criminal justice system obviously isn't going to put Minsky's corpse on trial. There won't be any legal determination made.
It might be possible for the victim to sue his estate in civil court but the odds of success there seem low.
It might be possible for the victim to sue his estate in civil court but the odds of success there seem low.
Certainly a reminder that hero worship is misguided. People are flawed — some more than others.
Thanks!
Is there a link to the primary source? All I can find are news media articles
If you were in his position though why not just kill yourself off? At 66 there’s not much life left to live and what’s left is going to be pretty shitty anyway behind bars.
If I was his attorney, I would have advised he negotiate for a lighter sentence in exchange for cooperation around bringing others to justice. Standard practice. He could have gotten off with a light sentence and brought many others to justice. He’s literally done that before.
> He’s literally done that before.
Exactly - the prosecutors no longer have that capital, otherwise it would come off as getting another rich guy get away with it, again. Not to mention those involved in the last deal are already in a world of trouble.
Exactly - the prosecutors no longer have that capital, otherwise it would come off as getting another rich guy get away with it, again. Not to mention those involved in the last deal are already in a world of trouble.
At his age, even a lighter sentence would likely be a life sentence. I think he knew that, and seeing the rest of his life would be court cases and jail, took the easy way out. Assuming this was in fact suicide, he made a logical choice.
He was going to spend his life in prison this time. They couldn’t give him the death penalty so there was no deal to be made. Epstein was never going to talk, anyway.
It sounds like trump was involved in at least one instance. I don’t think any lawyer would advise against flipping on that turd sandwich while Moscow mitch is running the senate.
There's zero evidence of this.
Certainly testimony anyway: https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/06/23/donald-trump-rape-law...
That case was odd. It's not clear that the plaintiff even exists. The addresses on record for her in the court system were bogus, journalists haven't been able to speak with her, she was a no-show at the press conference promoted by her lawyer where she was supposed to appear, and all of the lawsuits were dropped before she could testify.
1. banning Epstein from all Trump properties due to Epstein's inappropriate behavior toward an underage girl
2. being the one acquaintance willing and eager to talk with the prosecutor for Epstein's first case, and thus enabling the prosecution to make progress
2. being the one acquaintance willing and eager to talk with the prosecutor for Epstein's first case, and thus enabling the prosecution to make progress
At 66, there’s another 15-25 years to live. Not trying to comment on the topic at hand, just saying that a lot can happen in 15 years; more than “not much”.
Sure he had every reason to.. for the past couple of weeks.
But he suddenly succeeds within 24 hours of the information drop on Friday that named many rich and powerful individuals, to which he would possibly be the key witness? Isn’t that a bit suspicious?
But he suddenly succeeds within 24 hours of the information drop on Friday that named many rich and powerful individuals, to which he would possibly be the key witness? Isn’t that a bit suspicious?
This "suicide" is as believable as a "Russian reporter falling on a knife 26 times".
Does anyone know the going rate for a prison murder in NY? Through the guards, not the other inmates.
I imagine the stakes are high enough here that the "going rate" is irrelevant. Millions would be a pittance.
Jokes from Reddit:
1. Committed suicide by shootings himself 15 times at the back of his head
2. If you are surprised by his suicide, imagine how surprised he himself was
Reddit has been predicting this for days or weeks now.
1. Committed suicide by shootings himself 15 times at the back of his head
2. If you are surprised by his suicide, imagine how surprised he himself was
Reddit has been predicting this for days or weeks now.
How does a guy on suicide watch kill himself? This is a massive failure of Justice.
"Suicide watch" covers a range of activity. Someone may be getting a visual check once an hour, once every 30 minutes, or once every 15 minutes. That may be as simple as looking through a hatch / peephole to see if the person isn't obviously ligatured, or it may include calling to the person and hearing a response.
There's not much evidence that 15 minute observations work, and some evidence they cause harm. If someone's risk is high enough for them to be on observations they probably need to be on continuous observations.
Continuous observations are tricky. Imagine another person being with you 24 hours of the day, watching you while you eat, bathe, defecate. We want to avoid them if possible because it doesn't build the patient's / prisoner's safety. It keeps them safe for those few days, but it may significantly increase their risk afterwards.
And this is if the observations actually happen. Sometimes staff lie. https://twitter.com/KirstenSjovoll/status/106738247933674291...
15 minute obs disturb sleep and don't work: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/art...
There's not much evidence that 15 minute observations work, and some evidence they cause harm. If someone's risk is high enough for them to be on observations they probably need to be on continuous observations.
Continuous observations are tricky. Imagine another person being with you 24 hours of the day, watching you while you eat, bathe, defecate. We want to avoid them if possible because it doesn't build the patient's / prisoner's safety. It keeps them safe for those few days, but it may significantly increase their risk afterwards.
And this is if the observations actually happen. Sometimes staff lie. https://twitter.com/KirstenSjovoll/status/106738247933674291...
15 minute obs disturb sleep and don't work: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/art...
Wasn't he on 24/7 camera surveillance?
Some relevant into: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_watch
I was surprised to learn that it's often periodic, not continuous. There is probably one guard on duty at most for a given cell, and when they go use the rest-room, there may be no-one watching
'suicide watch' generally means that someone checks your cell more frequently looking for signs that you're working on a way to kill yourself, not that you're constantly monitored. That's expensive.
Right. It is proof of corruption and incompetency. He was in the custody of the government. This damages trust in the system, but also the ideology of it, as people already express that this outcome is good. Those people don't care about evidence, witnesses, arguments, and now he can't directly name co-conspirators and accomplices.
Someone has bought their idea of justice with death.
Someone has bought their idea of justice with death.
[deleted]
How common is it for a federal inmate on suicide watch to commit suicide? What's the Bayesian prior?
Now we may not find out the further extent of his rings, the clients, etc.
I too believe this might be a conspiracy of some sort
But there is still a chance he committed suicide willingly. Perhaps he himself couldn't stand the upcoming revelations and bribed the guards or someone else to remove some of the restrictions so he can roam free enough to do the deed.
I read before,he has had a conviction at some point where he only served time on weekends and basically had cops dedicated to his "protection" who called him "Mr. Epstein" unlike they would a normal prisoner.
I just hate concluding with incomplete information at hand.
But there is still a chance he committed suicide willingly. Perhaps he himself couldn't stand the upcoming revelations and bribed the guards or someone else to remove some of the restrictions so he can roam free enough to do the deed.
I read before,he has had a conviction at some point where he only served time on weekends and basically had cops dedicated to his "protection" who called him "Mr. Epstein" unlike they would a normal prisoner.
I just hate concluding with incomplete information at hand.
Epstein’s case shows why all those “Pizzagate” and other similar conspiracy theories seemed believable, no matter if they were fake.
The current political crisis is the crisis of trust.
The current political crisis is the crisis of trust.
The instagram accounts of James Alefantis and associates was more than enough to make it believable...
I want to reply to you before your comment probably gets flagged.
That "political crisis of trust" is not entirely organic, and mentioning Pizzagate is an example of why that shouldn't be taken at face value. Pizzagate wasn't just a meme, it was an orchestrated attempt to poison the well of support for Hillary Clinton and the Democratic campaign. People in this very thread are still trying to push a connection between Epstein, Pizzagate and the Clintons.
I mention this because whenever this "crisis of trust" is brought up, inevitably the blame for it is placed either entirely on "the left," "the (left-wing) media establishment" or (probably leftist) politicians... in other words, its scope and nature is almost always framed in a way that benefits a specific political narrative.
That "political crisis of trust" is not entirely organic, and mentioning Pizzagate is an example of why that shouldn't be taken at face value. Pizzagate wasn't just a meme, it was an orchestrated attempt to poison the well of support for Hillary Clinton and the Democratic campaign. People in this very thread are still trying to push a connection between Epstein, Pizzagate and the Clintons.
I mention this because whenever this "crisis of trust" is brought up, inevitably the blame for it is placed either entirely on "the left," "the (left-wing) media establishment" or (probably leftist) politicians... in other words, its scope and nature is almost always framed in a way that benefits a specific political narrative.
That was my point. The Russians, or whoever was behind that particular operation, chose this narrative over many other options, exactly because it was believable.
Any real controversy will be amplified, inflated and exploited by foreign interests these days.
Any real controversy will be amplified, inflated and exploited by foreign interests these days.
My default perspective on this is that he was an intelligence asset tasked with blackmailing the worlds most powerful people.
Because a well known creep with a $B doesn't already explain it? Instead we postulate an extra hundred horrible people all keeping a terrible secret... that also have terrible OpSec so they pay people off all the time.
Or the "underage girls" were actually fembots designed in an underground lair by radio controlled sharks?
Or the "underage girls" were actually fembots designed in an underground lair by radio controlled sharks?
[deleted]
This perspective was reached after a discussion with a top adviser of Trump, Clinton, Obama and other world leaders.
Its very HN to get downvoted for sharing a perspective and how one arrived at it.
Acosta said the reason he didn’t give him a harsher sentence back in 2007 was because he “belonged to intelligence”.
>> He’d cut the non-prosecution deal with one of Epstein’s attorneys because he had “been told” to back off, that Epstein was above his pay grade. “I was told Epstein ‘belonged to intelligence’ and to leave it alone,” he told his interviewers in the Trump transition, who evidently thought that was a sufficient answer and went ahead and hired Acosta. <<
https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligenc...
Acosta said the reason he didn’t give him a harsher sentence back in 2007 was because he “belonged to intelligence”.
>> He’d cut the non-prosecution deal with one of Epstein’s attorneys because he had “been told” to back off, that Epstein was above his pay grade. “I was told Epstein ‘belonged to intelligence’ and to leave it alone,” he told his interviewers in the Trump transition, who evidently thought that was a sufficient answer and went ahead and hired Acosta. <<
https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligenc...
Wow, you literally have to go to Jared Kushner's magazine to find that out... of course there is other controversy as well, but it seems a bit self serving.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_Media
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_Media
So you spoke with a political elite who has a vested interest in spinning the story... that's clarifying.
This man was far too powerful to be under the thumb of an intelligence agency, they would have been his clients, not his superiors.
Suicided.
Probably not suicided in the direct sense. Probably, "we aren't going to walk by your cell for the next hour, if you're still around rich and powerful people will make you wish you had taken your life."
This reminds of the famous 'Whackings' scene from the movie The Casino.
Reference: https://youtu.be/m4NUFTwAlQc
Reference: https://youtu.be/m4NUFTwAlQc
Why was he not on suicide watch considering he just had a failed suicide attempt? Either that's gross incompetence or something more sinister
Furious. Massive failure by the justice system to do its job. Epstein, a monster, was allowed to escape justice and take everything he knew with him. This all not to mention the power of those potentially implicated in his sick schemes and their interest in him being conveniently buried with his knowledge. This outcome is bad for all of us.
"Suicide watch" doesn't have a fixed meaning.
People on 15 minute observations can and do die by suicide.
If someone is at risk and you think obs are going to help (they don't always help, they can make things worse) you need to have them under full time obs.
But even then how close does that need to be? Two staff members within arms reach 24 hours of the day, including during eat, bathing, defecating?
People on 15 minute observations can and do die by suicide.
If someone is at risk and you think obs are going to help (they don't always help, they can make things worse) you need to have them under full time obs.
But even then how close does that need to be? Two staff members within arms reach 24 hours of the day, including during eat, bathing, defecating?
> Inmates on suicide watch are generally placed in a special observation cell, surrounded with windows, with a bolted down bed and no bedclothes. A correction officer — or sometimes a fellow inmate trained to be a “suicide companion” — is typically assigned to sit in an adjacent office and monitor the inmate constantly.
> Robert Gangi, an expert on prisons and the former executive director of the Correctional Association of New York, said guards also generally take shoelaces and belts away from people on suicide watch.
> “If he’s on suicide watch, it's virtually impossible to kill yourself,” Mr. Gangi said.
> To take an inmate off suicide watch a “post-watch report” needs to be completed, which includes an analysis of how the inmate’s circumstances have changed and why that merits removal from the watch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
> Robert Gangi, an expert on prisons and the former executive director of the Correctional Association of New York, said guards also generally take shoelaces and belts away from people on suicide watch.
> “If he’s on suicide watch, it's virtually impossible to kill yourself,” Mr. Gangi said.
> To take an inmate off suicide watch a “post-watch report” needs to be completed, which includes an analysis of how the inmate’s circumstances have changed and why that merits removal from the watch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
hanging only takes ~6 minutes until point of no return.
if the neck is dislocated even immediate intervention cant accomplish much for the decedent.
It's also very difficult to, from "ground level" dislocate the neck thus. It was the "long drop and the sharp stop" in the gallows which caused neck dislocation (or in poor planning, even decapitation).
yes its most likely a gradual loading of the ligature rather than an abrupt drop. one would have to be fairly determined toward fate, and a bit athletic to incur cervical dislocation.
He was on suicide watch according to most articles on this. Which makes it more sinister.
Quoting the linked article:
He was reportedly on suicide watch following an earlier incident.
He was reportedly on suicide watch following an earlier incident.
Ever been in a US jail? Gross incompetence is the rule, not the exception.
My understanding is that he was indeed on suicide watch.
[deleted]
Just one word comes to mind: "convenient"
It's an interesting question whether a person in his position has a right to commit suicide.
No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all. Can you convince me otherwise? It seems obvious to me that while a right to commit suicide might exist typically, somebody imprisoned is obviously not entitled to it. We restrict many rights when we imprison people, and I see no reason why the 'right to commit suicide' should not be one of them. Allowing such a man to kill himself denies his victims, some of whom may yet be unidentified, to opportunity to resolve the matter in a satisfactory way.
When I say "right", I don't mean what's currently granted to him by our Rube Goldberg justice system, I mean the inalienable rights of any sentient being. I've met people who think you should be able to punch out any time regardless of your situation, people who think you're responsible to get your affairs in order first, people who think it's a sin regardless, etc. This guy was in a unique situation because his estate isn't going to suffer (maybe they'll have to pay a lawyer to figure out who gets the sacks of cash) and even if he got acquitted somehow his reputation and ability to move in the circles he's accustomed to are destroyed. Would you agree that if he happened to be innocent he had a right to commit suicide? (I'll take your silence just now as a yes or at least a maybe. :b) So how about if he was guilty? Does he have the right to kill himself after conviction? How about if he donated $100,000,000 to an anti human trafficking charity, but dodged trial? Like I said, it's an interesting, nuanced question.
> inalienable rights
Which is such a stupid phrase because most other 'inalienable rights are removed when you're incarcerated, thus they clearly aren't inalienable.
Which is such a stupid phrase because most other 'inalienable rights are removed when you're incarcerated, thus they clearly aren't inalienable.
By that logic, people in concentration camps don't have basic human rights.
"Inalienable" means it can't be removed. That's different from whether or not someone respects the right.
"Inalienable" means it can't be removed. That's different from whether or not someone respects the right.
[deleted]
> No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all.
You say that, yet you went through the trouble of writing a reply that ponders this exact question: At what point does suicide become morally acceptable?
I do think it is an interesting question. I'd go the way of saying: If you still have serious responsibilities (as in this case), it is immoral.
It's worth noting that suicide used to be a serious offense - or even a capital offense, ironically.
You say that, yet you went through the trouble of writing a reply that ponders this exact question: At what point does suicide become morally acceptable?
I do think it is an interesting question. I'd go the way of saying: If you still have serious responsibilities (as in this case), it is immoral.
It's worth noting that suicide used to be a serious offense - or even a capital offense, ironically.
I can think of many situations in which suicide is morally acceptable. I'd be very critical of anybody who asserts otherwise, that would be a much more interesting conversation to have, if only because I think I could really lay into anybody who disagreed with me on that matter. Whether prisoners should be able too is less interesting, so far I've not seen a compelling argument for permitting it. It seems like a perversion of justice to allow it.
[deleted]
We restrict the right to some freedoms, but do we restrict the right of autonomy within the person. You may not be able to do things as you wish, but can you restrict or legislate that away? Nuance might include the reasoning - suicide to 'avoid consequences', or depression (and of course the confluence of multiple reasons and / or benefits).
Somewhat related, though tangential - there are countries that do not punish for prison escapes or attempts. You will be put back in jail if caught, and circumstances might be changed to mitigate risk, but the underlying reason is "a fundamental human desire is to be free, and we cannot (additionally) punish for acting upon that desire".
Somewhat related, though tangential - there are countries that do not punish for prison escapes or attempts. You will be put back in jail if caught, and circumstances might be changed to mitigate risk, but the underlying reason is "a fundamental human desire is to be free, and we cannot (additionally) punish for acting upon that desire".
All other concerns aside, this seems pretty unenforceable without going to some ridiculous extremes.
Preventing suicide is typically reasonably easy; suicide-proof smocks exist for this reason. Obviously you don't threaten a prisoner with criminal penalties for attempting suicide, that would be really stupid. Rather, you take measures to prevent the possibility.
It's easy on relatively short term. But for anything long term wouldn't it become cruel and unusual punishment? Not to mention very expensive. With no obvious and immediate reason to do this the logistics and image of this would be a nightmare.
I read through this whole despicable thread to find an interesting comment. I can't imagine having the mentality of taking advantage of other people to satisfy personal desires and the enabling of others to do the same.
To your point, I don't think I would live very much longer than ~10 years in prison; it's unconscionable. It's also interesting in the context of this administration's allowing for the death penalty at the federal level, with some complaints about "cruel and unusual punishment" flying around as a result.
Some religions argue suicide is a sin that sends one to eternal hell.
Lots of interesting ideas surrounding this ugly chapter, the least of which is the conspiracy theories. Epstein was never a credible witness, and would not have talked anyway. There is an underlying theme of revenge (rather than justice) in some of these comments that makes me uncomfortable.
We need to get his victims very good therapy so they can heal from their traumatic experiences.
To your point, I don't think I would live very much longer than ~10 years in prison; it's unconscionable. It's also interesting in the context of this administration's allowing for the death penalty at the federal level, with some complaints about "cruel and unusual punishment" flying around as a result.
Some religions argue suicide is a sin that sends one to eternal hell.
Lots of interesting ideas surrounding this ugly chapter, the least of which is the conspiracy theories. Epstein was never a credible witness, and would not have talked anyway. There is an underlying theme of revenge (rather than justice) in some of these comments that makes me uncomfortable.
We need to get his victims very good therapy so they can heal from their traumatic experiences.
[deleted]
I don't think suicidal people much care about the legal or moral judgements of others. Unless you're talking about removing all means of suicide and forcefully keeping people alive.
> I don't think suicidal people much care about the legal or moral judgements of others.
This is untrue. From what we can tell suicidal people care deeply about what other people think.
This is untrue. From what we can tell suicidal people care deeply about what other people think.
Morally and legally? From what we can tell suicidal individuals often care "what other people think" in the vein of social acceptability. He ran with a crowd that flaunted a disregard for legality and moral compunction. In this case, I would not believe his suicidal attempt (not attempts) had any consideration for moral or legal ramification.
Which of his two attempts are you denying?
Do you mean more deeply than the average person?
[deleted]
But the dead guy who was photographed when they rolled him out, had a different nose and a different ear. Convenient, if so.
Helped by the powerful right up to the end
Is the death penalty "cruel and unusual" punishment, or helpful?
There is no way to humanely force people to tell the public what they know. This doesn't really impact the accusations against him other than preventing people from asking him questions to which he lies as a response. His suicide does not erase the evidence, nor witnesses and accusers.
There is no way to humanely force people to tell the public what they know. This doesn't really impact the accusations against him other than preventing people from asking him questions to which he lies as a response. His suicide does not erase the evidence, nor witnesses and accusers.
It just seems like he must have had help, somehow, in order to kill himself. Regardless of his or his assistant's motivation.
Monsters can occur anywhere. What makes a real difference is a community’s capacity for looking the other way when an individual sheds their personhood in the perpetration of heinous acts. Look at religious organizations (Catholic Church, Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn, ...) and in the sports world (USA Gymnastics) and in financial/political circles.
Now more than ever, if you see something - say something. No matter how esteemed a person may be within their field of activity, monstrous acts demand the swiftest of retribution.
Now more than ever, if you see something - say something. No matter how esteemed a person may be within their field of activity, monstrous acts demand the swiftest of retribution.
This makes me so angry. Such an important case, so much on the line. And then this. And if you question the official narrative of "suicide", you will probably soon be labeled a conspiracy theorist.
Oh an just by the way, this news broke first on 4chan (thread 222518349). That just on the matter of what the value of these sites are.
edit: and already there are [dead] comments who question this
Oh an just by the way, this news broke first on 4chan (thread 222518349). That just on the matter of what the value of these sites are.
edit: and already there are [dead] comments who question this
The problem, in my experience, is that for one legit fact usually there is a lot of actual fake news thrown in, along with context free facts, in those communities. This causes a lot of people believe false things and keep repeating it to others. A form of brainwashing. Also people who assume someone's guilt and then work backwards towards showing it, while ignoring other signs.
This is the way I would have explained the main stream media.
The suicide narrative is perfectly reasonable. The fact that he was on suicide watch already is what raises questions of corruption and coverups.
Why would you doubt suicide?
Because it's just too convenient.
He was murdered, far more logically.
He was murdered, far more logically.
How is it far more logical?
Because he was on suicide watch, until conveniently taken off of it a few hours before he died.
His cell's camera also "mysteriously" stopped working.
Somehow, he hung himself, which should have been impossible at the facility he was in.
The odds make it extremely probably that he was "suicided", that is, murdered, and then have his death announced by a corrupt coroner as "suicide".
As it is, it seems like he was probably murdered by strangulation.
His cell's camera also "mysteriously" stopped working.
Somehow, he hung himself, which should have been impossible at the facility he was in.
The odds make it extremely probably that he was "suicided", that is, murdered, and then have his death announced by a corrupt coroner as "suicide".
As it is, it seems like he was probably murdered by strangulation.
It may be a good idea to watch out for cops and guards from that prison suddenly 'buying businesses', making other large and successful investments, receiving expensive gifts and/or gaining large amounts of wealth. My current theory is that Epstein had a bounty on his head and was killed by a cop or guard, it's often case that prison 'suicides' are in fact covers for police brutality gone too far, so I think this is the most likely scenario.
> it's often case that prison 'suicides' are in fact covers for police brutality gone too far
How often?
How often?
Are you implying that prison suicides are always genuine suicides?
Are you denying that police doesn't commit extreme brutality?
How can anyone give a number? Sure, one can give a number for suspicious cases but how can anyone say for sure that a given suicide was in fact a murder?
Can you always access the actual information regarding what happens in jail?
How often do you think Black people are mistreated by police? What are the actual numbers of black people being subjected to police brutality? If you cannot provide the actual numbers, does that mean it doesn't happen at all.
I am all for data but many times I feel like people ask for data just for the sake of derailing the otherwise meaningful discussion or because they're trying to be over smart.
Are you denying that police doesn't commit extreme brutality?
How can anyone give a number? Sure, one can give a number for suspicious cases but how can anyone say for sure that a given suicide was in fact a murder?
Can you always access the actual information regarding what happens in jail?
How often do you think Black people are mistreated by police? What are the actual numbers of black people being subjected to police brutality? If you cannot provide the actual numbers, does that mean it doesn't happen at all.
I am all for data but many times I feel like people ask for data just for the sake of derailing the otherwise meaningful discussion or because they're trying to be over smart.
> Are you implying that prison suicides are always genuine suicides?
I'm asking how often they are cover-ups.
> Are you denying that police doesn't commit extreme brutality?
I'm asking how often they are cover-ups.
> How can anyone give a number? Sure, one can give a number for suspicious cases but how can anyone say for sure that a given suicide was in fact a murder?
Maybe someone has done some research into this or is otherwise more informed than I and I would love to know.
> Can you always access the actual information regarding what happens in jail?
No but one can certainly try.
> How often do you think Black people are mistreated by police? What are the actual numbers of black people being subjected to police brutality? If you cannot provide the actual numbers, does that mean it doesn't happen at all.
That's irrelevant to my question.
> I am all for data but many times I feel like people ask for data just for the sake of derailing the otherwise meaningful discussion or because they're trying to be over smart.
Sometimes I feel like people derail a thread because they're presumptuous and read too much into a simple question.
I'm asking how often they are cover-ups.
> Are you denying that police doesn't commit extreme brutality?
I'm asking how often they are cover-ups.
> How can anyone give a number? Sure, one can give a number for suspicious cases but how can anyone say for sure that a given suicide was in fact a murder?
Maybe someone has done some research into this or is otherwise more informed than I and I would love to know.
> Can you always access the actual information regarding what happens in jail?
No but one can certainly try.
> How often do you think Black people are mistreated by police? What are the actual numbers of black people being subjected to police brutality? If you cannot provide the actual numbers, does that mean it doesn't happen at all.
That's irrelevant to my question.
> I am all for data but many times I feel like people ask for data just for the sake of derailing the otherwise meaningful discussion or because they're trying to be over smart.
Sometimes I feel like people derail a thread because they're presumptuous and read too much into a simple question.
I didn't give a number because I don't have one.
So how do you know it’s a common occurrence?
I assume it is because it's been the case every time I've read an article on police coverups of prison deaths.
> I assume it is because it's been the case every time I've read an article on police coverups of prison deaths.
"Every time I read an article on bagels it's about bagels!"
I'm asking how common is cover-up in relation to prison-suicide, not if it occurs at all.
"Every time I read an article on bagels it's about bagels!"
I'm asking how common is cover-up in relation to prison-suicide, not if it occurs at all.
"Epstein will be 'suicided' in prison before he talks" went from "conspiracy theory" to fact in a matter of weeks. When a certain mindset or perspective is able to see that clearly around the bend, it's time to start considering that it has some real explanatory power.
Although this feels less like a conspiracy than an open demonstration of power. "Yes, we run everything and we're completely above the law to the point we don't even need to hide it anymore. What are you gonna do about it?"
Although this feels less like a conspiracy than an open demonstration of power. "Yes, we run everything and we're completely above the law to the point we don't even need to hide it anymore. What are you gonna do about it?"
And notice how all mainstream media headlines use a strictly affirmative tone wrt whether it really was a suicide.
CNN: "Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide" NyTimes: "Jeffrey Epstein hanged himself in jail" ABC: "Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide"
etc etc. Just go to Google News and see for yourself. It's as if no reasonable person could possibly suspect that he was helped along, even though literally everyone was saying he will not live long enough to see trial, for months.
Lots of very powerful people (including some/all of the media owners) want this swept under the rug as quickly as possible for obvious reasons. I expect that it will be memory holed within a week at most.
If DOJ/FBI/US penitentiary is not complicit, they should take in Ghislaine Maxwell into custody at this time and put her on the suicide watch, but for real this time. And possibly also offer protective custody to some of the girls who are testifying.
CNN: "Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide" NyTimes: "Jeffrey Epstein hanged himself in jail" ABC: "Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide"
etc etc. Just go to Google News and see for yourself. It's as if no reasonable person could possibly suspect that he was helped along, even though literally everyone was saying he will not live long enough to see trial, for months.
Lots of very powerful people (including some/all of the media owners) want this swept under the rug as quickly as possible for obvious reasons. I expect that it will be memory holed within a week at most.
If DOJ/FBI/US penitentiary is not complicit, they should take in Ghislaine Maxwell into custody at this time and put her on the suicide watch, but for real this time. And possibly also offer protective custody to some of the girls who are testifying.
Here's your choices:
1) Killed by cleaners doing the bidding of the elite to protect them and cover up their misdeeds. If so, the reach of the mighty is total and that would explain why so many politicians and public figures are scared to commit to changing anything and why police detectives commit suicide mysteriously and why so many public officials "fall in line" isn't just to keep the dental plan but to stay alive.
2) Committed suicide because he was either loyal to a foreign intelligence agency or to whoever is on the other side of the people he was helping blackmail. A disciplined foreign agent? Seems unlikely. Maybe more of a rogue agent or someone who "left the reservation" as they say. Usually those types get cleaned up before they can do much damage, but suppose he was protected?
3) It is entirely possible that he entered a witness protection program of some high-level variety. I think this is less likely since those types of things usually happen after the trial and this was his own trial but the evidence entered into the record would likely have implicated many public figures and well known people. I would venture as far as saying 99% of those people would be Democrats. Sorry to make it partisan, fwiw GOP establishment people are just as crooked, but they accept bribes.
3a) Like the allegations surrounding Ken Lay, maybe he had enough money to create his own escape? It would be "allowed" the way it was "allowed" that El Chapo escaped from prison in Mexico. Bribery, deals, etc.
4) Facing the prospect of remaining behind bars for the rest of his life (10-15 more years?) he took the coward's way out as did so many evildoers before him. Recall that he hobnobbed with the fanciest and most fast moving people in the world and to be brought low like this is impossibly damaging to that kind of personality. It's also possible, however unlikely, that his conscience finally caught up to him. He certainly did abuse a lot of young women.
What have I missed?
I'm enthralled but also disgusted with what is going on these days. In the span of just one week we've seen 8chan taken down, which, even if you hated that place, you have to admit was a major blow to actual freedom of speech on the Internet. Someone used influence and corporate preference to do what governments couldn't do, which is shut up a vocal minority asking real questions. We can't even have the barest, most meager free speech, not really. Yes, that site was full of antisemitism salted with kiddie porn, but I suspect that stuff was spammed there by agents provocateur in order to chase away the curious. It was just too constant a thing, as was all the astrological horseshit and other attendant, easily debunked nonsense. How better to marginalize dangerous minds than to apply the "child porn" label to them? There is no better way! Wait until "Red Flag" laws get weaponized.
So Epstein is dead or won't be heard from again, at least. Assange is next. What after?
The entire Western world seems to be sleep-walking right into totalitarianism. When we lose the rule of law or when there is two sets of policies for the elite and for the "rest of us" or for the "party loyal" that portends the next wave which is violence. It is entirely clear that violence is what is sought, too. They aren't even pretending to care what moderate people think anymore or who ends up being harmed, as long as power keeps concentrating.
1) Killed by cleaners doing the bidding of the elite to protect them and cover up their misdeeds. If so, the reach of the mighty is total and that would explain why so many politicians and public figures are scared to commit to changing anything and why police detectives commit suicide mysteriously and why so many public officials "fall in line" isn't just to keep the dental plan but to stay alive.
2) Committed suicide because he was either loyal to a foreign intelligence agency or to whoever is on the other side of the people he was helping blackmail. A disciplined foreign agent? Seems unlikely. Maybe more of a rogue agent or someone who "left the reservation" as they say. Usually those types get cleaned up before they can do much damage, but suppose he was protected?
3) It is entirely possible that he entered a witness protection program of some high-level variety. I think this is less likely since those types of things usually happen after the trial and this was his own trial but the evidence entered into the record would likely have implicated many public figures and well known people. I would venture as far as saying 99% of those people would be Democrats. Sorry to make it partisan, fwiw GOP establishment people are just as crooked, but they accept bribes.
3a) Like the allegations surrounding Ken Lay, maybe he had enough money to create his own escape? It would be "allowed" the way it was "allowed" that El Chapo escaped from prison in Mexico. Bribery, deals, etc.
4) Facing the prospect of remaining behind bars for the rest of his life (10-15 more years?) he took the coward's way out as did so many evildoers before him. Recall that he hobnobbed with the fanciest and most fast moving people in the world and to be brought low like this is impossibly damaging to that kind of personality. It's also possible, however unlikely, that his conscience finally caught up to him. He certainly did abuse a lot of young women.
What have I missed?
I'm enthralled but also disgusted with what is going on these days. In the span of just one week we've seen 8chan taken down, which, even if you hated that place, you have to admit was a major blow to actual freedom of speech on the Internet. Someone used influence and corporate preference to do what governments couldn't do, which is shut up a vocal minority asking real questions. We can't even have the barest, most meager free speech, not really. Yes, that site was full of antisemitism salted with kiddie porn, but I suspect that stuff was spammed there by agents provocateur in order to chase away the curious. It was just too constant a thing, as was all the astrological horseshit and other attendant, easily debunked nonsense. How better to marginalize dangerous minds than to apply the "child porn" label to them? There is no better way! Wait until "Red Flag" laws get weaponized.
So Epstein is dead or won't be heard from again, at least. Assange is next. What after?
The entire Western world seems to be sleep-walking right into totalitarianism. When we lose the rule of law or when there is two sets of policies for the elite and for the "rest of us" or for the "party loyal" that portends the next wave which is violence. It is entirely clear that violence is what is sought, too. They aren't even pretending to care what moderate people think anymore or who ends up being harmed, as long as power keeps concentrating.
> What have I missed?
I think there are many other possibilities, but unfortunately, we may never have a more conclusive answer than the one we have now. Without trying to give any particular weight to any of these:
Perhaps he unintentionally died during an "enhanced interrogation", and death by suicide is an officially sanctioned coverup.
Perhaps he died naturally of a heart attack, and for whatever internal reason (to cover for the lack of proper medical response?), the prison decided to report it as a suicide by hanging.
Perhaps he was poisoned by a guard or another inmate simply because accused child molesters don't fare well in prison. The prison decided that declaring it a suicide was better than explaining why their security was so poor.
Perhaps the rumors are true that he was working for an intelligence service (US or foreign) and he was sprung by his employer. The apparent suicide is merely a coverup to explain his sudden absence, with the prison deceived as well.
Perhaps nothing at all has happened to him, but for some reason the prosecution and defense decided that a false story about this was the best way to "flush out" some other offender.
I think the real pressure should be on obtaining proper video evidence of whatever did happen. Who knows if it's true, but there are rumors of camera malfunctions. Like police body cams that seem to avoid recording crucial moments, this would seem incredibly suspicious. Was there ever any video found for his "previous suicide attempt"? If nothing else, perhaps there can be a change in policy so that at least the expectation of video evidence will prevent some future recurrence.
I think there are many other possibilities, but unfortunately, we may never have a more conclusive answer than the one we have now. Without trying to give any particular weight to any of these:
Perhaps he unintentionally died during an "enhanced interrogation", and death by suicide is an officially sanctioned coverup.
Perhaps he died naturally of a heart attack, and for whatever internal reason (to cover for the lack of proper medical response?), the prison decided to report it as a suicide by hanging.
Perhaps he was poisoned by a guard or another inmate simply because accused child molesters don't fare well in prison. The prison decided that declaring it a suicide was better than explaining why their security was so poor.
Perhaps the rumors are true that he was working for an intelligence service (US or foreign) and he was sprung by his employer. The apparent suicide is merely a coverup to explain his sudden absence, with the prison deceived as well.
Perhaps nothing at all has happened to him, but for some reason the prosecution and defense decided that a false story about this was the best way to "flush out" some other offender.
I think the real pressure should be on obtaining proper video evidence of whatever did happen. Who knows if it's true, but there are rumors of camera malfunctions. Like police body cams that seem to avoid recording crucial moments, this would seem incredibly suspicious. Was there ever any video found for his "previous suicide attempt"? If nothing else, perhaps there can be a change in policy so that at least the expectation of video evidence will prevent some future recurrence.
This is totally not suspicious
Agreed. He has motive for suicide, too, though.
The two needn't be mutually exclusive. Someone could have been enticed to look the other way. He could have had materials made available which he properly shouldn't have, etc.
Now I'm not claiming any of these things, but I can see why there's going to be a field day with this one. That everyone saw it coming should have made it less probable, not more.
Now I'm not claiming any of these things, but I can see why there's going to be a field day with this one. That everyone saw it coming should have made it less probable, not more.
And the motive would be...he swore a blood oath to commit suicide once he was caught. It was either that or an ordinary political murder.
The idea that this guy killed himself out of despair or whatever is an unbelievable laugh. He was psychologically a reptile.
The idea that this guy killed himself out of despair or whatever is an unbelievable laugh. He was psychologically a reptile.
I don't think we can know this for sure. He was definitely a sex predator, quite possibly a sociopath, but to call him a psychopath with a 'Reptilian' emotional structure seems like a step too far
Yes, but he was already on suicide watch. I would be interested in seeing statistics on how often prisoners succeed in committing suicide while on suicide watch.
Page 7 onwards, this is about patients in English mental health hospitals though: https://www.merseycare.nhs.uk/media/4267/simonfinallitrev.pd...
[deleted]
What a wierd header to use for this story. What about "Jeffrey Epstein: Suspected child trafficker 'found dead in cell' in New York"
[deleted]
Can we just shut down the Department of Corrections? They are, at best, massively incompetent and negligent, and at worst, massively corrupt and negligent.
Sadly, most jails and prisons in the US are state or city controlled, and wildly worse than Federal facilities. This happened in one of the "better" places.
[deleted]
So just let all the inmates out into the streets, not because they do absolutely nothing, but because they aren't perfect according to your standards. A stop the world rewrite, HN style, right?
Have you ever seen documentaries of prisons in South American countries?
Peru has some truly apocalyptic examples of prisons that are just walled yards with dilapidated shelters and no guards. Well, maybe a maximum of watch towers manned with snipers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvu575hiOOc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruvian_prison_massacres
In these prisons they just drop raw ingredients for food that the gates to the yard, and transfer them to the inmates' possession. On occasion there are incidents that require communication or the transfer of individuals, and they treat it like handling hostages.
So, it's not like your suggestion isn't in use. Consider the shape it takes, when directly applied to real world scenarios.
Have you ever seen documentaries of prisons in South American countries?
Peru has some truly apocalyptic examples of prisons that are just walled yards with dilapidated shelters and no guards. Well, maybe a maximum of watch towers manned with snipers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvu575hiOOc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruvian_prison_massacres
In these prisons they just drop raw ingredients for food that the gates to the yard, and transfer them to the inmates' possession. On occasion there are incidents that require communication or the transfer of individuals, and they treat it like handling hostages.
So, it's not like your suggestion isn't in use. Consider the shape it takes, when directly applied to real world scenarios.
Your comment was dead. I vouched for it, because I think the point you're making is a valid one.
I'll just note that you come across very combative. HN is intended to be an environment of thoughtful and substantive discussion. I would recommend that you peruse the guidelines[0] for discussion.
Some specific feedback on what I interpret as combative, and what I expect led to the killing downvotes:
The first paragraph is very dismissive and responds to your assumption of the intent of the parent, rather than something they said. I would suggest a clarifying question to understand what shape they expect their suggestion to take, rather than assume a strawman.
The second paragraph is disparaging and suggests that you consider the parent to be ignorant.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I'll just note that you come across very combative. HN is intended to be an environment of thoughtful and substantive discussion. I would recommend that you peruse the guidelines[0] for discussion.
Some specific feedback on what I interpret as combative, and what I expect led to the killing downvotes:
The first paragraph is very dismissive and responds to your assumption of the intent of the parent, rather than something they said. I would suggest a clarifying question to understand what shape they expect their suggestion to take, rather than assume a strawman.
The second paragraph is disparaging and suggests that you consider the parent to be ignorant.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
And to top the irony this comment is downvoted as well.
I know the guidelines say something about not talking about voting but there are times when I guess it would be good to understand the spirit of that rule instead of the letter.
I know the guidelines say something about not talking about voting but there are times when I guess it would be good to understand the spirit of that rule instead of the letter.
[deleted]
He was suicided.
[deleted]
This will only inflame conspiracy theory minded people to believe there is a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves.
This is depressing. I’m yet hopeful evidence will be used to bring guilty parties to justice. This wasn’t just mr Epstein.