Emirates Says Bookings to the U.S. Fell by 35% After the First Travel Ban(fortune.com)
fortune.com
Emirates Says Bookings to the U.S. Fell by 35% After the First Travel Ban
http://fortune.com/2017/03/09/emirates-bookings-fell-35-after-first-travel-ban/
9 comments
I guess I added to that 35%. I'm a brown guy(Indian) with a beard amd often mistaken for middle eastern. I live in the US. I put off International travel plans because of all the craziness going around. They weren't essential travel though. I would've, but now I saved up some money before I move out of the US permanently in July ;-)
So... which country earned your respect? Out of interest in people's perception of human rights.
Moving not because I don't respect the opportunities in the US, or that the country has treated me so badly that I wanna escape and go somewhere. But because I had to make a choice between settling down in the USA vs settling down in Denmark. Current political climate and the prospects of this administration didn't do much to convince me that USA was any better.
If anything, I'm thankful to the USA for many things in the last 6 years I lived here. Most of it for the awesome friends I made here. But, my Visa always reminded me that I'm just a visitor, and the ~10 year wait for a green card doesn't really make the USA attractive to me anymore.
If anything, I'm thankful to the USA for many things in the last 6 years I lived here. Most of it for the awesome friends I made here. But, my Visa always reminded me that I'm just a visitor, and the ~10 year wait for a green card doesn't really make the USA attractive to me anymore.
How did you get into Denmark? I heard they shut down their Green card scheme.
Haven't gotten into Denmark yet. My girlfriend is Austrian and we're moving there together.
AFAIK, I get a residence and work permit as we're moving together and that she is a EU national who would be working as a Asst.Professor there.
That sounds weird. It's pretty easy to get those if you want to marry, but her being your girlfriend shouldn't help outside of the formal letter of invitation.
One doesn't need to be married in order to be covered by the EU rights in question. Straight from the source:
"The following family members of an EU/EEA citizen or Swiss citizen, who is exercising his/her right to free movement in Denmark, or of a Danish citizen who is exercising or who has exercised his/her right to free movement in another EU/EEA country or Switzerland, has the right to have a visa application processed in accordance with EU regulations:
* spouse
* cohabiting partner aged 18 or over <----
* ..."
See https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/visa/visas-unde....
"The following family members of an EU/EEA citizen or Swiss citizen, who is exercising his/her right to free movement in Denmark, or of a Danish citizen who is exercising or who has exercised his/her right to free movement in another EU/EEA country or Switzerland, has the right to have a visa application processed in accordance with EU regulations:
* spouse
* cohabiting partner aged 18 or over <----
* ..."
See https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/visa/visas-unde....
Hmmm. She is my Fiancé, and we were going to get married before the move, but decided to do it later. I need to check with the immigration person there.
As a nation of immigrants steeped in commerce this is catastrophic mismanagement of some of humanity's greatest resources.
I would like to see SV leaders stand up to this garbage. Make public statements saying that you will be moving more jobs out of the US because of Trump's actions.
I don't know why people have down voted this. Trump has all the markings of a fascist. Fascists must be dealt with... you don't just tiptoe around them.
I don't know why people have down voted this. Trump has all the markings of a fascist. Fascists must be dealt with... you don't just tiptoe around them.
Pretty sure that's a terrible idea.
Like the law or not, that's who your nation voted for, and the government has the power to make life very difficult for corporations.
Also, let's be real here. The travel ban doesn't affect these SV companies. How many employees are going to be coming from Syria, Iran or Yemen?. Are the positive optics worth the difficulties? The public is already weary of corporations becoming too powerful, this will only feed into that distrust, and possibly alienate ~50% of the population.
Political statements in either direction are almost always a losing proposition for corporations.
Like the law or not, that's who your nation voted for, and the government has the power to make life very difficult for corporations.
Also, let's be real here. The travel ban doesn't affect these SV companies. How many employees are going to be coming from Syria, Iran or Yemen?. Are the positive optics worth the difficulties? The public is already weary of corporations becoming too powerful, this will only feed into that distrust, and possibly alienate ~50% of the population.
Political statements in either direction are almost always a losing proposition for corporations.
> the government has the power to make life very difficult for corporations
If we're at the point where companies need to fear arbitrary punishment by the government for partisan reasons, the rule of law is dead. I'm not ready to concede that point.
> Also, let's be real here. The travel ban doesn't affect these SV companies. How many employees are going to be coming from Syria, Iran or Yemen?. Are the positive optics worth the difficulties?
You may be interested to learn that a slew of companies signed an amicus brief in Washington v. Trump[1], including:
> Airbnb, Uber, Twitter, Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, Dropbox, eBay, GoPro, Lyft, Spotify, Yelp and Levi Strauss & Co
So, in their estimation, the answer appears to be "yes."
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_v._Trump#Amici_curi...
If we're at the point where companies need to fear arbitrary punishment by the government for partisan reasons, the rule of law is dead. I'm not ready to concede that point.
> Also, let's be real here. The travel ban doesn't affect these SV companies. How many employees are going to be coming from Syria, Iran or Yemen?. Are the positive optics worth the difficulties?
You may be interested to learn that a slew of companies signed an amicus brief in Washington v. Trump[1], including:
> Airbnb, Uber, Twitter, Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, Dropbox, eBay, GoPro, Lyft, Spotify, Yelp and Levi Strauss & Co
So, in their estimation, the answer appears to be "yes."
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_v._Trump#Amici_curi...
> If we're at the point where companies need to fear arbitrary punishment by the government for partisan reasons, the rule of law is dead. I'm not ready to concede that point.
Trump has already stated his desire to apply tariffs to companies that operate outside the US, assuming he follows through, moving employees outside the US for spite is a losing proposition.
> You may be interested to learn that a slew of companies signed an amicus brief in Washington v. Trump[1], including:
Look up the definition of "amicus curaie".
Anyhow, legal avenues are fair game. But actively hurting the American economy to prove a point will only turn public perception against them. Americans (heck, even those on HN) are already weary of how much power companies like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Uber, etc... have over them...
Trump has already stated his desire to apply tariffs to companies that operate outside the US, assuming he follows through, moving employees outside the US for spite is a losing proposition.
> You may be interested to learn that a slew of companies signed an amicus brief in Washington v. Trump[1], including:
Look up the definition of "amicus curaie".
Anyhow, legal avenues are fair game. But actively hurting the American economy to prove a point will only turn public perception against them. Americans (heck, even those on HN) are already weary of how much power companies like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Uber, etc... have over them...
> Trump has already stated his desire to apply tariffs to companies that operate outside the US, assuming he follows through
And he'll need lots of luck getting both Republican-controlled bodies of Congress to pass those tariffs.
> moving employees outside the US for spite is a losing proposition
It doesn't have to be spite. Doing so out of practicality (see, e.g., companies' increasing their presence in Vancouver) is a more effective statement, anyway.
> Look up the definition of "amicus curaie".
Is there anything in particular you want me to learn?
And he'll need lots of luck getting both Republican-controlled bodies of Congress to pass those tariffs.
> moving employees outside the US for spite is a losing proposition
It doesn't have to be spite. Doing so out of practicality (see, e.g., companies' increasing their presence in Vancouver) is a more effective statement, anyway.
> Look up the definition of "amicus curaie".
Is there anything in particular you want me to learn?
Iran produces more engineering graduates than any country other than China, Russia and the US (can't find the China reference but this is similar: http://interestingengineering.com/top-10-countries-with-the-.... The article I read was about electronic engineering though).
Interestingly, 70% of Iranian engineering grads are female https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-ta...
Interestingly, 70% of Iranian engineering grads are female https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-ta...
> Interestingly, 70% of Iranian engineering grads are female
Although my experience is with other Gulf states (not Iran but considered relatively progressive), the cause for that might be less noble than some think. Basically while the sons are allowed to study abroad, the daughters are most definitely not. This leads to the national universities having female majorities in pretty much all subjects.
In any case, it would be foolhardy to construe that number as equality (unless e.g. Iran has a huge surplus of women). But it is interesting.
Although my experience is with other Gulf states (not Iran but considered relatively progressive), the cause for that might be less noble than some think. Basically while the sons are allowed to study abroad, the daughters are most definitely not. This leads to the national universities having female majorities in pretty much all subjects.
In any case, it would be foolhardy to construe that number as equality (unless e.g. Iran has a huge surplus of women). But it is interesting.
Many tech employees come from Iran; it's a country of engineers and mathematicians. Both my supervising postdocs in my research positions were born there.
> Political statements in either direction are almost always a losing proposition for corporations
Whereas dumping huge amounts of money into PACs is often a winning proposition for companies. :(
Whereas dumping huge amounts of money into PACs is often a winning proposition for companies. :(
As an Australian resident, but of sub-continental descent, I am re-evaluating travel plans to visit the US again. Love the place, have friends and colleagues there, but just not wanting to put up with the risks & hassle involved.
It is interesting that a Middle Eastern carrier is reporting a drop like this. It would be a good exercise to compare the ME->USA travel statistic against their other routes. I know that Emirates is a popular carrier here (Australia) to get to Europe etc. Also would be interesting to corroborate against statistics from Qantas, Cathay Pacific etc. as well as other ME carriers like Etihad.
It is interesting that a Middle Eastern carrier is reporting a drop like this. It would be a good exercise to compare the ME->USA travel statistic against their other routes. I know that Emirates is a popular carrier here (Australia) to get to Europe etc. Also would be interesting to corroborate against statistics from Qantas, Cathay Pacific etc. as well as other ME carriers like Etihad.
I do get that websites need advertising to survive, however 100% volume autoplaying ads with dubstep, I could seriously live without. (and I like electronic music.)
I just don't want to have an algorithmic test handled to me at the border and risk deportation if I don't get the answer "right". Canada is fine.
Honestly I cannot see why anyone would want to visit the USA these days. It sounds like you're "welcomed" with an intrusive interrogation and if you get through that you have to endure:
* the world's crappiest food, and too much of it
* loud, raspy, nasal voices
* constant risk of being shot
OK the country looks beautiful but you can get stunning natural scenery elsewhere on the planet with added culture
* the world's crappiest food, and too much of it
* loud, raspy, nasal voices
* constant risk of being shot
OK the country looks beautiful but you can get stunning natural scenery elsewhere on the planet with added culture
Probably to work since most of the top internet companies are based there and heavily use and advocate for visa laborers.
you might try actually visiting and finding those aren't truthful :)
Most people I've found who think that are young and poor or left, how perspective changes once you escape that!
Most people I've found who think that are young and poor or left, how perspective changes once you escape that!
"Or left"...
People are not political opinions. Not to get into a debate here, but neither of you are providing evidence for your claims, and relying on confirmation bias is not a good way to prove something.
People are not political opinions. Not to get into a debate here, but neither of you are providing evidence for your claims, and relying on confirmation bias is not a good way to prove something.
Know who really cares? Not Emirates or airlines. Talk to Disneyworld. Talk to real estate agents who are seeing middle east buyers heading to Vancouver and London rather than New York. Emirates delivers the people but the real loss is to those doing business with those people once they land.
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Is Vancouver really in the class of london and new York? (I've lived my whole life in a Vancouver suburb, and I'm curious how the world views us)
It depends. The city isn't great for locals, but the overseas investor sees different things. They look for stability and ease of entry. A good airport, reasonable immigration and stable house prices. Even the local efforts to stabilize prices through the new taxes are seen as safe in that they reduce the chance of a bubble burst. If you are looking for a place to park money in real estate, Vancouver is on the short list. If you are a local looking for work or wanting to start a business, that is a totally different story.
I can imagine that. I am a permanent resident of US but for the fact that I am brown, I am avoiding all unnecessary trips.
Going through TSA is a very uncomfortable experience.
Going through TSA is a very uncomfortable experience.
I have a friend who was born in the US but his parents are Iranian. I am friends with him since we were 5 years old. This guy is the opposite of a threat to this country, but he's pretty much stopped traveling internationally after he was detained and accused of bringing rocket launchers into the country by some stupid border agent who ended up just trying to be "tough" on him to see if he would crack.
What did the border agent think were rocket launchers?
Not trying to berate your experience. Touchwood, I never had any problem with TSA. I have got myself TSA pre. My total time for security check at O'hare and LAX is between 2-5 mins. There have been times when TSA officials were cracking jokes with me.
Edit - let me share a small story with you. It is from the times when I was on EAD (about 4,5 years ago). I was returning from India to Chicago. Immigration office told me there will an additional check so they asked me to follow another officer. The area had lot of chairs and TVs. While, I was waiting for my return of my passport, I saw another guy sleeping on 5,6 chairs. A TSA officer came and telling him while shaking his body to try to wake him up - "hey! wake up. You can go home" :-)
P.S - english is my 2nd language so please pardon my grammar.
Edit - let me share a small story with you. It is from the times when I was on EAD (about 4,5 years ago). I was returning from India to Chicago. Immigration office told me there will an additional check so they asked me to follow another officer. The area had lot of chairs and TVs. While, I was waiting for my return of my passport, I saw another guy sleeping on 5,6 chairs. A TSA officer came and telling him while shaking his body to try to wake him up - "hey! wake up. You can go home" :-)
P.S - english is my 2nd language so please pardon my grammar.
TSA Pre can help, but if you have a similar name to someone on a watchlist or no-fly list you can still get stopped.
If anyone reading this is consistently stopped unfairly, or faces extra delays when ticket agents print their boarding card, you should use DHS TRIP (Traveler Redress Inquiry Program)
https://www.dhs.gov/dhs-trip
If anyone reading this is consistently stopped unfairly, or faces extra delays when ticket agents print their boarding card, you should use DHS TRIP (Traveler Redress Inquiry Program)
https://www.dhs.gov/dhs-trip
Even a redress number is no guarantee against TSA harassment at the border, although that's not a new thing. On The Media had an episode featuring the story of one of its producers' experience at the US-Canadian border in 2013, during which a group of US citizens were held without cause other than the fact that they were Muslim.[1] One of them had a redress number, but the CBP agent told him that it didn't matter and wouldn't help.
[1]: http://www.wnyc.org/story/my-detainment-story-or-how-i-learn...
[1]: http://www.wnyc.org/story/my-detainment-story-or-how-i-learn...
Fake news from a right-wing propagandist. Discrimination at the border did not exist before Jan 20 2017.
Same here. I am brown, US passport, have never had any problems reentering the US. One time I even had a full on beard, and looked very disheveled and disoriented. Ambled on in.
I've travelled to the US 20+ times over the past two years; I really don't mind going through TSA or US Customs, I have an Arabic first name and I'm a visible minority (Indian). Never had any major issues at the border or during security.
That being said, I cancelled a couple planned trips since January — not going to travel to the US until I have to; I don't want to put up with the hassle.
That being said, I cancelled a couple planned trips since January — not going to travel to the US until I have to; I don't want to put up with the hassle.
[deleted]
Brown like Indian or Brown like Arabic? Does it even make a difference?
Decidedly anecdotal: Not the OP but I am brown like Indian with a non-Muslim name and have never had any extra scrutiny at security, except for one "random" screening on my boarding pass that involved some TSA swab check. I am a citizen, but I haven't heard of any non-citizen family friends or relatives that have expressed anything out of the ordinary.
I'm possibly the most incompetent traveler ever, and I haven't yet been pulled aside for extra scrutiny. But my mum has, and she's far more careful than I am with all her documents.
If there's one thing I've learned from attempting to replicate bugs, it's that if something affects even as much as one in four people, it'll look hunky dory to thrice as many people as it looks awful to.
If there's one thing I've learned from attempting to replicate bugs, it's that if something affects even as much as one in four people, it'll look hunky dory to thrice as many people as it looks awful to.
> ...anything out of the ordinary.
I'm Canadian. White. Blonde. I'm often mistaken for a soldier. After possibly hundreds of trips in and out of the US spanning four decades, last month the guy at YVR asked me "what religion are you?" That was strange. I didn't have a ready answer and I'm someone who always has a ready answer for boarder guards. I actually said "Well, when my grandfather died we had a ceremony at a church. Is that enough?"
Have you ever been arrested? No. Have you ever been finger printed? Yes. Have you ever been to the middle east? Yes. Are you carrying food? No. What religion are you? .... wtf did that become a thing?
I'm Canadian. White. Blonde. I'm often mistaken for a soldier. After possibly hundreds of trips in and out of the US spanning four decades, last month the guy at YVR asked me "what religion are you?" That was strange. I didn't have a ready answer and I'm someone who always has a ready answer for boarder guards. I actually said "Well, when my grandfather died we had a ceremony at a church. Is that enough?"
Have you ever been arrested? No. Have you ever been finger printed? Yes. Have you ever been to the middle east? Yes. Are you carrying food? No. What religion are you? .... wtf did that become a thing?
Officer watched too much homeland?
That's only slightly funny. In the dark days of GWB (2002-2007) I saw many interviews where interrogators, from boarder guards to military people, said they took guidance from popular TV shows. The breakdown in mid-level management, a lack of clear standards and procedures, meant that otherwise rational people felt it appropriate to take ideas from TV. The writers of 24 were visibly upset when confronted with evidence that intel people took "interrogation" ideas from their show.
and have never had any extra scrutiny at security, except for one "random" screening on my boarding pass that involved some TSA swab check.
Interesting. I'm a white guy and I've gone through secondary screening (swabs, detailed questions, etc) probably half a dozen times over the past 2-3 years.
And I have a US passport!
Interesting. I'm a white guy and I've gone through secondary screening (swabs, detailed questions, etc) probably half a dozen times over the past 2-3 years.
And I have a US passport!
I've also been subject to secondary screening a lot more often than the GP, and am a white, native-born US citizen with a germanic surname.
Discretionary secondary screenings can have a lot to do with appearing nonthreatening. If the guard has a quota to hit (even an unstated one) and wants to minimize effort spent on dumb secondary screenings, it pays to choose people who won't put up a struggle.
White American here. In the past 3-4 years (probably a couple dozen flights) I have gotten some level of patdowns and hand-swabs literally every single time I go through one of those millimeter-wave machines. Every time, without fail.
My belief is that it's because I had gone through some pretty substantial weight loss in the past, and so my body skin/muscle/fat density is all screwy around the midsection, and thus it sets the machine off.
My belief is that it's because I had gone through some pretty substantial weight loss in the past, and so my body skin/muscle/fat density is all screwy around the midsection, and thus it sets the machine off.
My white buddy got stopped and frisked traveling around Europe with me every time. He has a legit beard. They even asked if they could put their hands inside his pants (inside the waist band). Beards are suspect these days no matter what your background.
perhaps they profiled too many brown people and had to make their numbers look 'random' again (:
This is a common misconception - "Arabic" isn't distinguishable like this since a lot of Arabs are fair-skinned.
Given how many Americans assume Sikhs are Muslims (see https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/the-tro...), I'd say probably not.
As you probably know, the vast majority of Indians are not Sikh, and it's not clear that they assume Indians of other religions are Muslim as well.
Yes they do assume Indians of other religions are Muslim as well. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39081698
I was hoping for more widespread data rather than a single incident. I have definitely heard about more incidents involving Sikh individuals.
> I have definitely heard about more incidents involving Sikh individuals.
Most likely because all the aggressors in those incidents see is the traditional dastar.
Remember that one of the more prevalent slurs for men from Muslim cultures is "raghead." If you're already enough of a shit to think that's a legitimate way to treat people, you probably don't care one whit about the cultural specifics of the "rag" in question.
Most likely because all the aggressors in those incidents see is the traditional dastar.
Remember that one of the more prevalent slurs for men from Muslim cultures is "raghead." If you're already enough of a shit to think that's a legitimate way to treat people, you probably don't care one whit about the cultural specifics of the "rag" in question.