The Cost of Shadow Work(ft.com)
ft.com
The Cost of Shadow Work
https://www.ft.com/content/c2913c55-b9f5-44fa-b6dc-7cd7a2659925
113 comments
I had the opposite from Spectrum. I document every single outage and call them monthly to ask for credits.
Once month I got the bill and it was nearly 50% higher with no explanation. After contacting them they informed that where I was supposed to be receiving credits was in fact getting additional charges.
Either Spectrum employees are dumber than the average 5 year old or this was an intentional act done in retribution.
Once month I got the bill and it was nearly 50% higher with no explanation. After contacting them they informed that where I was supposed to be receiving credits was in fact getting additional charges.
Either Spectrum employees are dumber than the average 5 year old or this was an intentional act done in retribution.
This sounds like an opportunity to pair monitoring of your ISP service with chatGPT to ask them automatically for the credits? Maybe fire off a complaint to the FCC each time as well.
Note to self: Consider piloting a business to leverage ChatGP to conduct en masse robocalls against both the corporate entity that cause pain to consumers as well as robocalls on same topic to legislative and executive branches of relevant governing bodies (to overwhelm them to trigger more positive law changes)....hmmm
I have a feeling corporations will use CharGPT first to handle support requests. You’ll have to detect whether you are talking to ChatGPT or a human.
I can't wait for my ChatGPT to talk to their ChatGPT and see who wins (ML providers I guess).
If they don't write it up to the refund button they won every time...
New! ChatGPT service fee. $3.50
you just need ChatGPT to perform a reverse Turing test to guard against this condition
Yeah, agreed, that's a predictable use case. But my silly idea would trigger annoyance with the hope of causing positive change. :-)
I have a feeling you'd end up net negative on ChatGPT Plus, at least. Then again, if that $20/mo is flat and Spectrum sucks enough, who knows?
It's especially bad when "something went wrong" style error messages appear and it becomes your responsibility to waste time with support staff who aren't given the ability to actually resolve or even see the error. In many cases piles of support tickets are unresolved for years, even though they are marked closed for KPI reasons, with the same unexplainable malfunctions persisting for some percentage of the customer base. In an ideal world, support would be proactive and any errors that occur immediately set off alarm bells that would then have people already working on the problem.
It's a coordination problem.
Everyone -- and I mean everyone -- should just send a letter and go directly to your Attorney General's office if the letter isn't acknowledged with the issue resolved within 30 days. It takes about two minutes, almost never fails, and creates a much larger burden for the corporation.
I never sit on hold, and the letter takes about 2 minutes to write.
Everyone -- and I mean everyone -- should just send a letter and go directly to your Attorney General's office if the letter isn't acknowledged with the issue resolved within 30 days. It takes about two minutes, almost never fails, and creates a much larger burden for the corporation.
I never sit on hold, and the letter takes about 2 minutes to write.
What does your letter generally say? How do you find the right person and address to send it to in order to get it read or maybe get a response, not just insta chucked?
I included a form letter in a sibling thread. Don't overthink it! Just state the facts and make a clear and reasonable demand with a timeframe for them to meet your demand.
> How do you find the right person and address to send it to in order to get it read or maybe get a response, not just insta chucked?
Meh. They almost always ignore the first letter. The important point is that the AG's letter makes it to the right audience. If there's a legal dept send it there. Otherwise just whatever address you can find.
> How do you find the right person and address to send it to in order to get it read or maybe get a response, not just insta chucked?
Meh. They almost always ignore the first letter. The important point is that the AG's letter makes it to the right audience. If there's a legal dept send it there. Otherwise just whatever address you can find.
For convenience, here's a link to that comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34618901
I wonder if there's a startup here. Briefly: You upload your bills, we resolve disputes for you. Common problems get collectivized/turned into class action suits.
I've used things like Rocket Money, but their approach is to renegotiate bills and skim a little off the top. This could be more of a feeder for law firms that specialize in class action. Or, maybe it would have an in-house legal team.
I've used things like Rocket Money, but their approach is to renegotiate bills and skim a little off the top. This could be more of a feeder for law firms that specialize in class action. Or, maybe it would have an in-house legal team.
I mentioned this very idea to a financially-savvy friend, and his answer was that credit-card companies already provide this service in the form of chargebacks.
That's true. Maybe this idea would appeal to people's sense of moral righteousness, though. Looking out for their fellow consumers :)
I understand you mean well, but does this really create a larger burden for the company or change anything in the future? I've never had a letter result in anything.
They ignore the letter and spring to action when the AG comes knocking.
The engagement with the AG's office does fire off internal processes that scale linearly, involve expensive labor, and are treated as urgent. If even 10% of customers did this it would result in some exec's attention.
The engagement with the AG's office does fire off internal processes that scale linearly, involve expensive labor, and are treated as urgent. If even 10% of customers did this it would result in some exec's attention.
Can you give an example of something that was resolved for you by this?
I can send a letter if it will do something but I can't convince 10% of the population to send a letter.
I've sent messages to government offices and never got anything but a canned response and no action.
I can send a letter if it will do something but I can't convince 10% of the population to send a letter.
I've sent messages to government offices and never got anything but a canned response and no action.
A fee for parking in a private lot during a period when they weren't supposed to be charging fees (free holiday parking sponsored by the local shops).
Verizon bill for unreturned equipment (didn't ask for it, told them I was leaving it on my doorstep and not taking delivery, it disappeared, heard back a year later with a fee).
TMobile bill.
An incorrect water bill.
A car dealership lying to me.
Issues with one of those "order for ipad" airport places mentioned in the article (same issue: never received my food).
Medical bill from an urgent care for some trivial thing that they told me they wouldn't charge me for.
Some interest on a student loan that accrued because their billing system messed up.
A bunch of other stuff I'm not remembering.
I always just send a written letter and if I don't get a check in 30 days go to the AG. Works every time. Fixing their petty crime is not my problem.
Verizon bill for unreturned equipment (didn't ask for it, told them I was leaving it on my doorstep and not taking delivery, it disappeared, heard back a year later with a fee).
TMobile bill.
An incorrect water bill.
A car dealership lying to me.
Issues with one of those "order for ipad" airport places mentioned in the article (same issue: never received my food).
Medical bill from an urgent care for some trivial thing that they told me they wouldn't charge me for.
Some interest on a student loan that accrued because their billing system messed up.
A bunch of other stuff I'm not remembering.
I always just send a written letter and if I don't get a check in 30 days go to the AG. Works every time. Fixing their petty crime is not my problem.
[deleted]
Is there some kind of state-by-state explainer that describes the process, what the letter has to include, etc?
Here's my form letter:
Dear _,
I am writing regarding [describe problem].
The appropriate resolution to this issue is [describe solution].
[Usually the solution is cash; if it is cash:] You may credit this to the form of payment you have on file, or by sending me a check at [address].
If you have any questions, you may call me at [phone number] at [time when I'm always free on a weekday during working hours in all us timezones].
I will contact my AG's office if I do not hear back from you in 30 days.
Thanks, [Name]
Mail it.
All state AG offices have a form for consumer complaints on their website. Usually it's very easy to find. Don't overthink it. Mention the letter in your AG complaint, include a copy and the date that you sent it. They will contact the business and start a resolution process. Usually you'll hear back in a week or so.
Dear _,
I am writing regarding [describe problem].
The appropriate resolution to this issue is [describe solution].
[Usually the solution is cash; if it is cash:] You may credit this to the form of payment you have on file, or by sending me a check at [address].
If you have any questions, you may call me at [phone number] at [time when I'm always free on a weekday during working hours in all us timezones].
I will contact my AG's office if I do not hear back from you in 30 days.
Thanks, [Name]
Mail it.
All state AG offices have a form for consumer complaints on their website. Usually it's very easy to find. Don't overthink it. Mention the letter in your AG complaint, include a copy and the date that you sent it. They will contact the business and start a resolution process. Usually you'll hear back in a week or so.
Excellent and useful, thanks.
AFAIK, every state's attorney general's office will have an online site and/or form for filing complaint(s), as well as a postal address you can use.
You can free-form your own letter, though that might delay things somewhat from the AG's office, though the business / countereparty will typically get on their game quickly.
DDG "consumer complaint" + <YOUR_STATE_HERE> should work.
E.g., top ten states by population, covering over half the US population, first result is the corresponding state's AG consumer affairs office:
CA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumert+complain+california> gives <https://www.dca.ca.gov/consumers/complaints/index.shtml>
TX: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+texas> <https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/consumer-protection>
FL: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+florida> <https://www.stateofflorida.com/consumer-complaints/>
NY: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+new+york> <https://dos.ny.gov/file-consumer-complaint>
PA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+pennsylvania> <https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/submit-a-complaint/consumer-...>
IL: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+illinois> <http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/consumers/filecomplai...>
OH: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+ohio> <https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Individuals-and-Families...>
GA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+georgia> <https://consumer.georgia.gov/>
NC: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+north+carolina> <https://ncdoj.gov/file-a-complaint/consumer-complaint/>
MI: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+michigan> <https://www.michigan.gov/ag/complaints>
You can free-form your own letter, though that might delay things somewhat from the AG's office, though the business / countereparty will typically get on their game quickly.
DDG "consumer complaint" + <YOUR_STATE_HERE> should work.
E.g., top ten states by population, covering over half the US population, first result is the corresponding state's AG consumer affairs office:
CA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumert+complain+california> gives <https://www.dca.ca.gov/consumers/complaints/index.shtml>
TX: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+texas> <https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/consumer-protection>
FL: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+florida> <https://www.stateofflorida.com/consumer-complaints/>
NY: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+new+york> <https://dos.ny.gov/file-consumer-complaint>
PA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+pennsylvania> <https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/submit-a-complaint/consumer-...>
IL: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+illinois> <http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/consumers/filecomplai...>
OH: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+ohio> <https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Individuals-and-Families...>
GA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+georgia> <https://consumer.georgia.gov/>
NC: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+north+carolina> <https://ncdoj.gov/file-a-complaint/consumer-complaint/>
MI: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+michigan> <https://www.michigan.gov/ag/complaints>
Cool, thanks for detailing that. I didn't know you could do that.
Absolutely this.
If the hold queue is more than a few minutes, you can't get the issue resolved, etc.:
1. Put it in writing.
2. Write your government's consumer advocate (usually the state AG's office in the US).
It's possible to escalate above and beyond this, but these two steps alone are often startlingly effective.
If the hold queue is more than a few minutes, you can't get the issue resolved, etc.:
1. Put it in writing.
2. Write your government's consumer advocate (usually the state AG's office in the US).
It's possible to escalate above and beyond this, but these two steps alone are often startlingly effective.
If everyone did this, it would shift the burden from overwhelmed customer service reps, to overwhelmed paralegals in the AG's office. And those people are paid with our tax dollars, which would mean the taxpayer is paying a penalty for poor customer service from every company.
Of course, if everyone did this, then hopefully it would also cause the company to fix their issues before it got to the point of overwhelming the AG's office. But doesn't it sound a little... centrally planned? communist? ... to need to tattle to the AG for every minor complaint you have with a company? I mean, great that it works, but it seems like a broken and unsustainable system.
Of course, if everyone did this, then hopefully it would also cause the company to fix their issues before it got to the point of overwhelming the AG's office. But doesn't it sound a little... centrally planned? communist? ... to need to tattle to the AG for every minor complaint you have with a company? I mean, great that it works, but it seems like a broken and unsustainable system.
An AGs office can fuck you up big time. Ruin execs lives. Wipe out LPs and their progeny. Destroy family names that go back to the revolutionary war.
You are correct. Capital adapts. Class war is a dialectic. This is just a micro tactic. Draw blood, retreat, regroup.
You are correct. Capital adapts. Class war is a dialectic. This is just a micro tactic. Draw blood, retreat, regroup.
That sounds like exactly the kind of place I don't want to send a bunch of petty complaints with a return address.
AGOs handle consumer complaints. It's literally in their mandate in most states. I've had nothing but friendly and helpful interactions with two different AGOs.
> petty complaints
Petty crime is still crime.
> petty complaints
Petty crime is still crime.
This sounds great, even a moral obligation! Does anyone know if a similar course of action exists in Spain?
This is a fantastic idea. Silly question but do you send it via email or snail mail?
Snail mail. Emails will immediately become helpdesk tickets and the onus is thrown right back onto you. There is no way to turn a snail mail letter into a helpdesk ticket. (Or at least not one that you're forced to interact with via email)
You are my hero!
i have a 5€/mo data simcard (500mb) i got many many years go. I have no use for it. To cancel it they put me through hell. My hour is valued at €200, i have no choice but to let them milk me for eternity. Or maybe someone comes up with a service for cancelling stuff/complain etc. I'de give them 50€ to cancel this crap.
>a few months ago Xfinity "accidentally" overcharged me by ~$10 on a monthly bill. Of course now the ball is in my court--either I let it slide and fork over the cost of a breakfast out to their shareholders for no extra value, or I give up some of my valuable time to call them and go through the hell of phone customer service, a 10-15 minute commitment minimum.
You can just submit a credit card chargeback in a few seconds online, and they will go through the rigamaroll. Likely that no further action will be needed on your part
You can just submit a credit card chargeback in a few seconds online, and they will go through the rigamaroll. Likely that no further action will be needed on your part
And then you get Xfinity canceling your internet without notice most likely. This is not a real solution.
Amusingly, telcos do this to each other too. I worked for a back haul carrier and AT&T would send us a literal truckload of paper bills every month that looked just like your standard phone bill for calls that we terminated on their network. They consistently net over-billed by about 10%. So of course we had a data entry team whose job it was to enter every claimed AT&T charge into our system so we could then reconcile those with our Call Detail Records and dispute the overage.
> I don't know what we can even do about this. Where's the government? They don't have my back.
Well govt is also busy in developing more self service solutions. Anything from Airport, fast food, grocery stores, banks they are putting the work on to customers which previously provider would have done.
Beside I think people are really excited about idea that technology and automation will fix human interaction problem. So that's what they are getting.
Well govt is also busy in developing more self service solutions. Anything from Airport, fast food, grocery stores, banks they are putting the work on to customers which previously provider would have done.
Beside I think people are really excited about idea that technology and automation will fix human interaction problem. So that's what they are getting.
Yes, and for some reason the world is shifting towards megacorporations which enhances this problem across the board. Companies take small but certain steps from producers of goods to some weird authoritarian symbiotic relationship entities with consumers. We’re well on track towards the world of Cyberpunk.
I don't think the government should be concerned with a $10 overcharge on your bill that takes a 15 minute phone call to fix.
The government is concerned with more systemic issues. As an example, when there was $1.3 Billion dollars in harm across more than 11 million accounts, they stepped in with Wells Fargo: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-order...
The government is concerned with more systemic issues. As an example, when there was $1.3 Billion dollars in harm across more than 11 million accounts, they stepped in with Wells Fargo: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-order...
The entire point of TFA is that this is a systemic issue, happening across the economy, across services.
I too feel like the person above you: my day is weighed down with doing tasks that either used to be part of what you were paying to get, and now have been outsourced to you (and lest we kid ourselves, the price didn't budge) or tasks which are effectively "hey, company, can you do your job?".
I'll reuse the example I used in an earlier thread along these same veins: my SO caught COVID. At the time, I only suspected it: so I ordered a test from Walgreens. This was done online, and the online flow told me: "we'll contact you when the order is ready for pickup". Great. Hours pass. I call in, and get the chatbot. I navigate its menus to "lookup order status", and input the information: "there is no order under that number" — fine, sure, lie to me. I try a few more things, and finally cave & ask for a human. Hold for 20 minutes for "we're experiencing above average call volume" (more lies) and we get a human: "oh, your insurance declined."
Like, okay Walgreens … let's say that's true: you decide to just blackhole my order, and gaslight me when I try to find it?
And further, now I have to get in contact with the insurance, since … they're not suppose to decline. Walgreens knows they're not supposed to decline, but instead of telling the insurer "that's some hot garbage", they foisted the job of getting the insurer to do their job onto me.
Nowhere, here, is anyone doing anything economically productive. The only person doing anything is me.
The test was paid for out of pocket.
It's an example, yes, but it's one I've been dealing with across companies, across the economy, for months? years?, has been getting worse, and is continuing to get worse. It no longer seems isolated to your usual bad actors like airlines who can't get planes from point A to point B to save their lives, it's everywhere.
Consumer protection laws, regulatory action, class actions (if we could! I.e.: more consumer protection laws…) is the systemic level fix to this nonsense.
> on your bill that takes a 15 minute phone call to fix.
It's never a 15 minute phone call.
I too feel like the person above you: my day is weighed down with doing tasks that either used to be part of what you were paying to get, and now have been outsourced to you (and lest we kid ourselves, the price didn't budge) or tasks which are effectively "hey, company, can you do your job?".
I'll reuse the example I used in an earlier thread along these same veins: my SO caught COVID. At the time, I only suspected it: so I ordered a test from Walgreens. This was done online, and the online flow told me: "we'll contact you when the order is ready for pickup". Great. Hours pass. I call in, and get the chatbot. I navigate its menus to "lookup order status", and input the information: "there is no order under that number" — fine, sure, lie to me. I try a few more things, and finally cave & ask for a human. Hold for 20 minutes for "we're experiencing above average call volume" (more lies) and we get a human: "oh, your insurance declined."
Like, okay Walgreens … let's say that's true: you decide to just blackhole my order, and gaslight me when I try to find it?
And further, now I have to get in contact with the insurance, since … they're not suppose to decline. Walgreens knows they're not supposed to decline, but instead of telling the insurer "that's some hot garbage", they foisted the job of getting the insurer to do their job onto me.
Nowhere, here, is anyone doing anything economically productive. The only person doing anything is me.
The test was paid for out of pocket.
It's an example, yes, but it's one I've been dealing with across companies, across the economy, for months? years?, has been getting worse, and is continuing to get worse. It no longer seems isolated to your usual bad actors like airlines who can't get planes from point A to point B to save their lives, it's everywhere.
Consumer protection laws, regulatory action, class actions (if we could! I.e.: more consumer protection laws…) is the systemic level fix to this nonsense.
> on your bill that takes a 15 minute phone call to fix.
It's never a 15 minute phone call.
I understand your frustration, and I think the US insurance system in general and your case specifically is materially worse than what OP described. After all, you never really got your issue resolved, as you had to pay out of pocket for something that your insurance was probably supposed to cover. It sucks we don't have anyone obvious to go to with these healthcare issues.
It's never a 15 minute phone call.
Why do people keep telling me this? I'm only going by what OP said. Tell them they were lying when they said they were on the phone for a quarter hour :)
It's never a 15 minute phone call.
Why do people keep telling me this? I'm only going by what OP said. Tell them they were lying when they said they were on the phone for a quarter hour :)
The OP said that was at a minimum:
> ...or I give up some of my valuable time to call them and go through the hell of phone customer service, a 10-15 minute commitment minimum.
Anecdotally, I find the 15 minute time frame to be the minority of the calls. But, 15 minutes is not a trivial amount of time, especially if that need comes in the middle of doing something else important.
Edit: I see you're other comment where you were referring to their one particular instance but everyone else is talking about the general problem.
> ...or I give up some of my valuable time to call them and go through the hell of phone customer service, a 10-15 minute commitment minimum.
Anecdotally, I find the 15 minute time frame to be the minority of the calls. But, 15 minutes is not a trivial amount of time, especially if that need comes in the middle of doing something else important.
Edit: I see you're other comment where you were referring to their one particular instance but everyone else is talking about the general problem.
My wife had a 4 hour three way call with a hospital and insurance to fix a $100k bill. Came out to $0 in the end.
Yeah, see there it's well "worth" it. I'm assuming it was there error, and still there error, and you still paid in 4 hours of your time to fix it, of course.
A COVID test has substantially fewer 0s on the pricetag, but that's the death by a thousand paper cuts that the article describes. It'd be nice to exchange money for service.
A COVID test has substantially fewer 0s on the pricetag, but that's the death by a thousand paper cuts that the article describes. It'd be nice to exchange money for service.
Regulated monopolies should exactly be hammered on this. That's why we have anti-trust in the first place - the bargaining power is so lopsided!
The line between this and Wells Fargo is much thinner than you think. Nobody has managed to prove actual malice at the board level at Wells. A company like Xfinity is likely prioritizing bugs by revenue. As a result, bugs that result in overcharging will be fixed last, if ever. It is unrealistic targets, crappy policies, and bad incentives all the way down. The only way to actually make them care would be fines which would move it up the revenue list.
The line between this and Wells Fargo is much thinner than you think. Nobody has managed to prove actual malice at the board level at Wells. A company like Xfinity is likely prioritizing bugs by revenue. As a result, bugs that result in overcharging will be fixed last, if ever. It is unrealistic targets, crappy policies, and bad incentives all the way down. The only way to actually make them care would be fines which would move it up the revenue list.
CFPB should be handling some of this, but it's clear they'll never be funded and staffed like they should be, and it's been demonstrated that when one of our two political parties controls the executive the CFPB won't be permitted to do anything but twiddle their thumbs. That's until they manage to eliminate them entirely.
We need some type of ombudsman that exists between people and corporations to solve these small matters. Small claims is a bit much, and it's individual only. Congresspeople and such are a bit too much for this purpose also. There needs to be something lesser, with a very large stick to swing around.
There are local consumer protection agencies and the better business bureau that might be able to help here. But, I mean, there was an issue and it got resolved pretty seamlessly. What do you want the BBB do? If this becomes a regular occurrence, that's another thing.
A 15 minute phone call is not seamless. I should be able to write an email, or better yet, just not pay it, and be assured there will be no retalliation if the original problem is a mistake on the company's side.
The BBB is a private organization that a corp has to agree to be a member of and pay dues to. They're as much of a failure as Yelp.
Almost like the CFPB?
https://2020.elizabethwarren.com/cfpb
https://2020.elizabethwarren.com/cfpb
The CFPB does some great work (and hopefully their recently proposed rule lowering credit card late fees becomes enacted), but unfortunately their scope is limited to financial institutions. I don't think they'll help with Comcast, stuff ordered online, insurance, etc. It would be great if we could expand their scope a bit or have another board for general consumer protection.
Agreed, but it's never a 15 minute phone call...
OP said they got it resolved with a 15 minute phone call. I was just assuming they were telling the truth...
[deleted]
minimum
They were clear on it taking 15 minutes:
In the end I got the charge reversed, cold comfort, I was out a quarter hour...
In the end I got the charge reversed, cold comfort, I was out a quarter hour...
This feels like a bad faith comment. You could have commented on systemic issues with these corporations but instead you fixated on one example.
[deleted]
[deleted]
An extension of this is externalizing costs.
Like hiring janitorial services instead of employing janitors, every decoupling of the system adds overhead. The people who could be recognized for being a good employee and offered other better positions are now often rigidly locked into low-wage labor permanently because no companies are willing to train people.
This is part of what is causing the rapidly rising inequality and college expenses. Many jobs that can be easily taught through apprenticeships and progressive responsibilities are being outsourced to colleges and universities, which were never meant to be all-encompassing career skills schools.
It also weakens companies' social contract, leading to even worse stewardship.
Like hiring janitorial services instead of employing janitors, every decoupling of the system adds overhead. The people who could be recognized for being a good employee and offered other better positions are now often rigidly locked into low-wage labor permanently because no companies are willing to train people.
This is part of what is causing the rapidly rising inequality and college expenses. Many jobs that can be easily taught through apprenticeships and progressive responsibilities are being outsourced to colleges and universities, which were never meant to be all-encompassing career skills schools.
It also weakens companies' social contract, leading to even worse stewardship.
Great observation!
Example: I met a person who started in a job like janitor and ended his career setting up video calls for the CEO. Seems likely that 50+ year career arc was possible because of employee training and all those jobs being in-house.
Example: I met a person who started in a job like janitor and ended his career setting up video calls for the CEO. Seems likely that 50+ year career arc was possible because of employee training and all those jobs being in-house.
I mean almost all of that is the result of horrible tax law around employment.
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you give an example?
I've attributed it to the formalization/metricization of every aspect of businesses. MBA-itis. "If you can't measure and control it eliminate it."
Similarly, if you believe a company's only job is to provide shareholders profits, this is the natural end game.
I've attributed it to the formalization/metricization of every aspect of businesses. MBA-itis. "If you can't measure and control it eliminate it."
Similarly, if you believe a company's only job is to provide shareholders profits, this is the natural end game.
I'm not sure exactly what was intended by the poster but I suspect it is related to the employment taxes associated with an employee vs a 1099 contractor or external vendor.
In addition to the different tax treatment labor law regulations are significantly different between those two types of staff with the contractor/external vendor being much less restrictive than for employees.
I haven't seen many details in most news stories about layoffs in the tech industry regarding contractors, but I suspect that the number of contractors terminated is significant also as those positions tend to be trimmed before employees.
In addition to the different tax treatment labor law regulations are significantly different between those two types of staff with the contractor/external vendor being much less restrictive than for employees.
I haven't seen many details in most news stories about layoffs in the tech industry regarding contractors, but I suspect that the number of contractors terminated is significant also as those positions tend to be trimmed before employees.
At least in the US, skyrocketing college costs aren't really due to excess demand. They are a side effect of the torrent of student loan money that the schools have captured over the last 20-30 years.
The lenders and the schools worked hand-in-hand to ratchet up the price tags and the size of the loans for college educations. All their incentives were to go up up up! The additional revenue to the schools didn't go to a better education, of course ... it largely went to administrative salaries. The administrative budget at US colleges has grown unbelievably while the instructional budget per-capita has been flat, driven down by the "adjunctification" of teaching staff.
The lenders and the schools worked hand-in-hand to ratchet up the price tags and the size of the loans for college educations. All their incentives were to go up up up! The additional revenue to the schools didn't go to a better education, of course ... it largely went to administrative salaries. The administrative budget at US colleges has grown unbelievably while the instructional budget per-capita has been flat, driven down by the "adjunctification" of teaching staff.
I'm pretty sure there was also a corresponding decrease in public funding for universities; to where most of the cost of the universities used to be borne by the state (and paid via taxes), but are now privatized. Increasing loans are only part of the issue (and likely exist to offset the pullback in public university funding)
https://www.amacad.org/publication/public-research-universit...
https://www.amacad.org/publication/public-research-universit...
Does anyone know of any studies on how the proliferation of MBA degrees has affected universities in this way, or other industries in similar ways? That is, the ballooning of administrative roles to the detriment of the student/consumer and core employees who produce the real value for a company/university/etc? I thought I read somewhere in the last year about how the proliferation of MBA degrees result in the lowering of workers’ wages, but little other benefit…
I vaguely remember the late David Graeber covering this in either his Bullshit Jobs book or blog.
Yup, 100% true. But they can both be true.
I mean it in the way that many people who might never have gone to college are now expected to do to not have a minimum-wage job forever.
I mean it in the way that many people who might never have gone to college are now expected to do to not have a minimum-wage job forever.
> Does it make sense for me, as a well-paid knowledge worker, to spend several hours a week struggling with tasks that used to be done far better by entry-level workers who needed the employment?
I think/talk about this all the time. I think there are some non-consumer examples of this also. For example, my wife is a Physician Assistant and spends most of her time entering information into the health system. While she's seeing a patient - she has to wait many seconds for the next screen to come up before she can continue talking to the patient. She has to to keep up with and know that system in addition to knowing medicine. But if she had someone else doing this for her. Maybe even taking raw notes and then entering them in right after - she'd free up her time for actual medicine.
Another example is the fact that my boss spends a lot of his time doing non-technical managerial work. But if they hired just one more person in our department to just do that work.
Basically what I'm saying is that Medical and IT people should all have assistants.
I think/talk about this all the time. I think there are some non-consumer examples of this also. For example, my wife is a Physician Assistant and spends most of her time entering information into the health system. While she's seeing a patient - she has to wait many seconds for the next screen to come up before she can continue talking to the patient. She has to to keep up with and know that system in addition to knowing medicine. But if she had someone else doing this for her. Maybe even taking raw notes and then entering them in right after - she'd free up her time for actual medicine.
Another example is the fact that my boss spends a lot of his time doing non-technical managerial work. But if they hired just one more person in our department to just do that work.
Basically what I'm saying is that Medical and IT people should all have assistants.
I've not sat down to really work through all the details, but I've had this notion in my head for some time that putting a kind of "developer secretary" on teams, to deal with all various tools developers are expected to navigate directly as part of their job and as just extra junk their employer makes them do (say, learning and using time-off request systems or expense-submission systems), such that the developers only needed to know & context-switch to email and maybe a chat program ("what about Jira?" ideally the secretary could do all that make-work shepherding and tracking down next-tasks, too), in addition to the actual thing they do that makes them so expensive, it could be a net-savings.
I doubt the math works out well for lower-paid employees that are also required to juggle all kinds of tangential shit these days ( sorry :-( ) but I think it might for even mid-pay developers.
I doubt the math works out well for lower-paid employees that are also required to juggle all kinds of tangential shit these days ( sorry :-( ) but I think it might for even mid-pay developers.
I don't know if it's true today but once upon a time a AAA game studio everyone here has heard of had exactly these "developer secretary" roles on game teams. From what I understand it was extremely helpful and it also served as an entry point into other, more interesting roles in the company. I know of one such person who transitioned into project management work internally, having first been a development team assistant, and she's had a wonderful career in games for at least 15 years now.
Law firms still have secretaries because the lawyers have to bill for their time, and they have to itemize their bills, and the clients read them.
It turns out that if you actually keep track of both time and its value, secretarial jobs are a good bargain.
It turns out that if you actually keep track of both time and its value, secretarial jobs are a good bargain.
Ah, but who is going to pay those assistants? To hear the company tell it, they're already struggling to pay their current workers what they call a "competitive wage".
Just look at Intel, who recently slashed salaries so they could afford to pay a larger dividend. How do you think they'd react if you asked them to provide every engineering manager with a full-time assistant?
Just look at Intel, who recently slashed salaries so they could afford to pay a larger dividend. How do you think they'd react if you asked them to provide every engineering manager with a full-time assistant?
So, a Physician's Assistant Assistant? But who will assist them?
At some point, dealing with the system is somebody's job. It used to be slow on paper, now it's slow on a computer. Your wife is being asked to do that because the physician has offloaded that to her. Maybe she can offload it to somebody else, but then that person isn't freed up for actual medicine.
At some point, dealing with the system is somebody's job. It used to be slow on paper, now it's slow on a computer. Your wife is being asked to do that because the physician has offloaded that to her. Maybe she can offload it to somebody else, but then that person isn't freed up for actual medicine.
My wife is very quick to point out that it is not "Physician's Assistant". It is "Physician Assistant".
She doesn't assist the doctor - she is a provider in her own right.
In fact, there is talk about changing PA to mean "Physician's Associate" instead.
One article I found: https://www.ama-assn.org/practice-management/scope-practice/...
Edit: here's another article https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/03/1059916...
She doesn't assist the doctor - she is a provider in her own right.
In fact, there is talk about changing PA to mean "Physician's Associate" instead.
One article I found: https://www.ama-assn.org/practice-management/scope-practice/...
Edit: here's another article https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/03/1059916...
How are the computers so bad?? I don't know why, but it's personally embarrassing to me as a developer.
Hospital IT systems are infamously horrible at maintaining computer systems. I worked in healthcare tech at one point and I remember back around 2016 we were still forced to support Internet Explorer for hospital systems that had simply never updated.
The person who buys them isn't the person who has to use them, and the procurement is done at too large and abstract a scale for requirements more complicated than checkboxes.
The several seconds between screens gets me down. It's shameful that systems that slow are rolled out.
I have used what I think is a pretty good clinical system where you have a free text box but it has something like code auto complete so clinical coding is taken care of and data like physical obs gets stored in a structured way so it can generate charts.
I have used what I think is a pretty good clinical system where you have a free text box but it has something like code auto complete so clinical coding is taken care of and data like physical obs gets stored in a structured way so it can generate charts.
This is what medical scribes do - they follow providers around and write their notes for them... Scribes are not paid well enough (minimum wage) for it to become a real profession and most scribes are just trying to collect clinical hours ahead of applying to med school or PA school.
When I was a scribe, our pay came directly out of the physicians pay so if they were making $100 per hour without a scribe, with a scribe they took home $85. I guess theoretically a physician could pay their scribe whatever they wanted to entice them to stick around longer than a year or two but I have never heard of this being done.
When I was a scribe, our pay came directly out of the physicians pay so if they were making $100 per hour without a scribe, with a scribe they took home $85. I guess theoretically a physician could pay their scribe whatever they wanted to entice them to stick around longer than a year or two but I have never heard of this being done.
Yeah, I've been saying this for a while. Computers made secretarial slightly more productive, and companies responded to that by eliminating the vast majority of the secretaries and offloading the remaining work to the ICs. Then the computer-based secretarial work expanded and expanded until it became a significant fraction of everyone's job. Then companies responded to that by assigning those duties to managers, and hiring more managers, contributing to bureaucratic bloat.
The key difference between a manager and a secretary is power. My manager can have me fired, a secretary probably can't (unless I really deserved it). By empowering the people handling bureaucratic bloat as their full time job, you incentivize the creation of more bloat.
The key difference between a manager and a secretary is power. My manager can have me fired, a secretary probably can't (unless I really deserved it). By empowering the people handling bureaucratic bloat as their full time job, you incentivize the creation of more bloat.
Article by Atul Gawande from a few years ago talking about Medical software, scribes and "virtual scribes"
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/12/why-doctors-ha...
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/12/why-doctors-ha...
The entire US healthcare system causes an absolute shitload of shadow work, largely for sick people and their families. It's disgusting.
On top of that, there's a bunch of, IDK, "shadowy" work, where non-healthcare orgs have to spend money to deal with, especially, health insurance. Lots of HR work, extra work for various government employees, all that crap.
What's crazy is that our system's already wildly more expensive than those of our peers, without even accounting for all of that. The whole thing's a huge drag on both human and economic wellbeing in our country.
On top of that, there's a bunch of, IDK, "shadowy" work, where non-healthcare orgs have to spend money to deal with, especially, health insurance. Lots of HR work, extra work for various government employees, all that crap.
What's crazy is that our system's already wildly more expensive than those of our peers, without even accounting for all of that. The whole thing's a huge drag on both human and economic wellbeing in our country.
I have a wife with a rare disease and think about this a lot, in combination with jobs that shouldn't exist. My wife spends 5-10 hours a week dealing with insurance paperwork. Multiple times a year we deal with insurance companies denying claims because they faxed it to themselves and it's now unreadable.
Here are two real examples of the mess we've collectively created. It will be painfully stupid to read, and it's filled with people in jobs that simply shouldn't exist in the first place. They aren't bad people, but every minute they spend at work is deadweight loss to the economy, and then they use up OUR time on top of it.
-----------------------
I (1) got laid off in September, and switched to COBRA coverage on my previous health plan. The HR folks (2) at my old company worked with an insurance broker (3) to both set up the health plan (4), vision plan (5), dental plan (6), and set up the COBRA plan (7) on different companies.
I set up auto-pay with the COBRA middle-man (7) whose contribution to the process appears to be collecting $1800 from me every month, splitting it up, and sending parts of $1800 to the three different insurance companies.
Issue 1: One month in, we tried to schedule an appointment with the dentist (8). The dentist told us the dental insurance said we didn't have coverage. Neither insurance nor the COBRA plan would return my calls. I had to talk to HR at my old company and sic the insurance broker on them. She came back more than a month later and said that both companies agree that the money was sent and I now had coverage for the previous month. I pointed out that retroactively saying I had coverage was completely useless since I had been unable to USE the coverage in real time. She went back and negotiated a reimbursement for two months coverage. The dental insurance carrier would send a check to my old employer who would then send it to me. This wasted the time of at least a half dozen people, most of all mine.
Issue 2: In early December, my wife had appendicitis that lead to an ER visit(9), CT scan, emergency surgery, and a 5-day hospital stay. 2 weeks later she was back at the ER with significant pain, and got another CT scan. Thank god for COBRA, right? lol.
When we got home from the second visit, I found a letter in the mailbox from the COBRA company saying that the monthly premium for december medical insurance had gone up by $100, and I would have to pay more to retain my coverage. This letter was dated a week after the month started, so I couldn't have paid the correct amount without inventing time travel. I was given until the end of an un-specified "grace period" to pay. They then *retroactively* cancelled all 3 insurance plans a few weeks later, but kept the $1800.
I didn't know this happened - I had just started a new job whose medical benefits kicked in 3 hours too late for us, and thought I had another couple weeks to figure out what was happening. Meanwhile, I got separate bills from the surgeon (10), anesthesiologist (11), and radiologist (12) for trivial amounts. I then got an $8000 bill from the ER, which included no indication (other than the amount) that my insurance coverage had retroactively lapsed between them checking my coverage and submitting their claims. The medical insurance never notified me it was being cancelled, and the website implied I had never had coverage in December.
I contacted everyone and after hours on the phone finally got hold of the COBRA company, who will process a grace period extension over the next two weeks, at which point the ER and all other providers can have their office staff re-submit claims and then bill me - which I will have to pay on different online portals except for the ones where I can only mail or pay by phone.
-----------------------
This is insanity. 12 different entities, many of which had multiple people actively involved. US healthcare costs are the highest in the world because every bullshit job creates an equal and opposite bullshit job, and they all also use up unpaid and undocumented patient time.
Here are two real examples of the mess we've collectively created. It will be painfully stupid to read, and it's filled with people in jobs that simply shouldn't exist in the first place. They aren't bad people, but every minute they spend at work is deadweight loss to the economy, and then they use up OUR time on top of it.
-----------------------
I (1) got laid off in September, and switched to COBRA coverage on my previous health plan. The HR folks (2) at my old company worked with an insurance broker (3) to both set up the health plan (4), vision plan (5), dental plan (6), and set up the COBRA plan (7) on different companies.
I set up auto-pay with the COBRA middle-man (7) whose contribution to the process appears to be collecting $1800 from me every month, splitting it up, and sending parts of $1800 to the three different insurance companies.
Issue 1: One month in, we tried to schedule an appointment with the dentist (8). The dentist told us the dental insurance said we didn't have coverage. Neither insurance nor the COBRA plan would return my calls. I had to talk to HR at my old company and sic the insurance broker on them. She came back more than a month later and said that both companies agree that the money was sent and I now had coverage for the previous month. I pointed out that retroactively saying I had coverage was completely useless since I had been unable to USE the coverage in real time. She went back and negotiated a reimbursement for two months coverage. The dental insurance carrier would send a check to my old employer who would then send it to me. This wasted the time of at least a half dozen people, most of all mine.
Issue 2: In early December, my wife had appendicitis that lead to an ER visit(9), CT scan, emergency surgery, and a 5-day hospital stay. 2 weeks later she was back at the ER with significant pain, and got another CT scan. Thank god for COBRA, right? lol.
When we got home from the second visit, I found a letter in the mailbox from the COBRA company saying that the monthly premium for december medical insurance had gone up by $100, and I would have to pay more to retain my coverage. This letter was dated a week after the month started, so I couldn't have paid the correct amount without inventing time travel. I was given until the end of an un-specified "grace period" to pay. They then *retroactively* cancelled all 3 insurance plans a few weeks later, but kept the $1800.
I didn't know this happened - I had just started a new job whose medical benefits kicked in 3 hours too late for us, and thought I had another couple weeks to figure out what was happening. Meanwhile, I got separate bills from the surgeon (10), anesthesiologist (11), and radiologist (12) for trivial amounts. I then got an $8000 bill from the ER, which included no indication (other than the amount) that my insurance coverage had retroactively lapsed between them checking my coverage and submitting their claims. The medical insurance never notified me it was being cancelled, and the website implied I had never had coverage in December.
I contacted everyone and after hours on the phone finally got hold of the COBRA company, who will process a grace period extension over the next two weeks, at which point the ER and all other providers can have their office staff re-submit claims and then bill me - which I will have to pay on different online portals except for the ones where I can only mail or pay by phone.
-----------------------
This is insanity. 12 different entities, many of which had multiple people actively involved. US healthcare costs are the highest in the world because every bullshit job creates an equal and opposite bullshit job, and they all also use up unpaid and undocumented patient time.
Yes we see this increasingly. Corpos would term this "self service", but it's outsourcing the workload onto the customers. As long as the customer's frustrations with that don't exceed the cost of the labor being saved, the corpos see it as a win.
What's not measured is that there's increasing frustration and poor service. The edge cases are not covered, because the edge cases are not profitable. I expect we will see demand destruction in certain sectors if this continues. Folks will just not buy products when they cannot be assured that there will be service alongside it.
What's not measured is that there's increasing frustration and poor service. The edge cases are not covered, because the edge cases are not profitable. I expect we will see demand destruction in certain sectors if this continues. Folks will just not buy products when they cannot be assured that there will be service alongside it.
Wow so just like all the outsourcing nonsense that first started in the IT industry (and failed) and then crept into all the other industries (and are subsequently failing now) it was all done by stupid MBAs who couldn't think ahead past one quarter. The way that you explained the phenomenon makes me think that there is a business opportunity to capture customers by providing world class service.
Auto companies are relearning why it does not make sense to outsource anything that a customer sees or touches. That is your profound knowledge and any supplier that is incentivized to maximize cost per unit will not care one bit about providing anything more that the minimum needed to get the contract. The customer suffers until one automaker breaks the mold and start to differentiate themselves by building in house and having a tighter feedback loop to provide the best quality.
Here's how it went down at Tesla straight from the horse's mouth. I remember the skeptics thought he was crazy for bringing this in house but it seems to have worked out. [1]: https://youtu.be/YAtLTLiqNwg?t=357
Auto companies are relearning why it does not make sense to outsource anything that a customer sees or touches. That is your profound knowledge and any supplier that is incentivized to maximize cost per unit will not care one bit about providing anything more that the minimum needed to get the contract. The customer suffers until one automaker breaks the mold and start to differentiate themselves by building in house and having a tighter feedback loop to provide the best quality.
Here's how it went down at Tesla straight from the horse's mouth. I remember the skeptics thought he was crazy for bringing this in house but it seems to have worked out. [1]: https://youtu.be/YAtLTLiqNwg?t=357
I think more likely the large companies which provide "self service" will continue to dominate the majority share of the market while leaving room at the edges for other companies to differentiate on customer service. You can see this in effect with FastMail and Proton Mail each of which offer a great product in their own regards, but also have the major selling point of being "Not Google".
FastMail and Proton Mail are still self service! But they do indeed have human fallback options where Gmail has _nothing_.
I'm not sure if this translates to all industries but consider airlines. Everyone complains about service, but the marginal flyer only cares about price. There is no reward for an airline offering better service at a price in economy. Fully half the plane (and more on discount airlines) buy only based on price. The story is different in the front of the plane, where margins are higher and business travelers will end up being brand loyal (and are treated accordingly.)
In other products I can only assume there has been a similar race to the bottom. Why should I pay up for some service if it's a roll of the dice that I will be treated any better? Unless I really trust a brand, and I can't know, I 'm going to end up differentiating on price alone.
In other products I can only assume there has been a similar race to the bottom. Why should I pay up for some service if it's a roll of the dice that I will be treated any better? Unless I really trust a brand, and I can't know, I 'm going to end up differentiating on price alone.
Self service is one thing.
But I'm seeing a lot of big corpo were paid $X for service S, and it was never rendered. Customer wants their money back, corporation doesn't want to give it.
In any other context, we'd call that "highway robbery", but for some reason for corporations, its fine. The article gives an example of it: ordered a coffee, it never came, no refund.
Regulatory agencies need to bring the ban hammer down on this, or forced arb. needs to be outlawed so that the people can class action it, or both.
But I'm seeing a lot of big corpo were paid $X for service S, and it was never rendered. Customer wants their money back, corporation doesn't want to give it.
In any other context, we'd call that "highway robbery", but for some reason for corporations, its fine. The article gives an example of it: ordered a coffee, it never came, no refund.
Regulatory agencies need to bring the ban hammer down on this, or forced arb. needs to be outlawed so that the people can class action it, or both.
> A business trip required the use of an unfamiliar travel platform, which required time and effort to learn. I scanned my own lunch items into a kiosk at the airport, which asked me if I wanted to leave a tip (to myself?). When the flight was delayed, I sat in a coffee shop where orders had to be placed via an iPad. After 30 minutes of waiting for a latte, I looked around for help but couldn’t find a human being to complain to (the guy next to me claimed to have been waiting 40 minutes). I eventually boarded without coffee or a refund.
This has happened to me on no less than a half dozen occasions. Those airport kiosks are a class action suit waiting to happen, IMO.
This has happened to me on no less than a half dozen occasions. Those airport kiosks are a class action suit waiting to happen, IMO.
I was at an airport that had these iPad's a while back. Sat down and an Ad started playing on the iPad. When I asked a nearby server how I could order, she told me "the menu will come up after the ad". Like seriously, you're going to milk your customers for everything, making them watch an ad for the privilege of ordering.
> which asked me if I wanted to leave a tip (to myself?)
This reminds me of weird tip-related hijinx I experienced recently. First, also at an airport, the credit card machine asked me to leave a tip at one of those retail "news" stores. This seems like an overreach. Retail was traditionally a tip-free experience and the prices at those stores are outrageous already.
In another incident, my restaurant bill included an automatic 20% "service fee" (for a party of 2). We had to ask if this was the equivalent of a tip and going to the staff or what (turns out it was). I totally support paying restaurant staff a living wage and eliminating tips entirely, but this seems somewhat underhanded. Sure I was planning to tip already, but calling it a "service fee" sends a very muddled message. It would have been more transparent to just make the food cost 20% more.
Finally, as a general observation, the move paying (and tipping) electronically makes me question if the waitstaff are getting 100% of these digital tips or the employer is keeping some/all of it.
This reminds me of weird tip-related hijinx I experienced recently. First, also at an airport, the credit card machine asked me to leave a tip at one of those retail "news" stores. This seems like an overreach. Retail was traditionally a tip-free experience and the prices at those stores are outrageous already.
In another incident, my restaurant bill included an automatic 20% "service fee" (for a party of 2). We had to ask if this was the equivalent of a tip and going to the staff or what (turns out it was). I totally support paying restaurant staff a living wage and eliminating tips entirely, but this seems somewhat underhanded. Sure I was planning to tip already, but calling it a "service fee" sends a very muddled message. It would have been more transparent to just make the food cost 20% more.
Finally, as a general observation, the move paying (and tipping) electronically makes me question if the waitstaff are getting 100% of these digital tips or the employer is keeping some/all of it.
> In another incident, my restaurant bill included an automatic 20% "service fee"
Hm. This has been pretty common in larger cities for a while, mostly because the service staff actually need the tips to like not be literally homeless. I can see how this would be off-putting if you're not aware of the practice, though.
> It would have been more transparent to just make the food cost 20% more.
They don't do this because people misunderstand the total price or at least misperceive it.
> Finally, as a general observation, the move paying (and tipping) electronically makes me question if the waitstaff are getting 100% of these digital tips or the employer is keeping some/all of it.
I'm pretty sure there are tax/fraud implications if they call it a tip or service fee and then pocket the cash. But yeah it's not like wait staff typically have tons of negotiating power.
Hm. This has been pretty common in larger cities for a while, mostly because the service staff actually need the tips to like not be literally homeless. I can see how this would be off-putting if you're not aware of the practice, though.
> It would have been more transparent to just make the food cost 20% more.
They don't do this because people misunderstand the total price or at least misperceive it.
> Finally, as a general observation, the move paying (and tipping) electronically makes me question if the waitstaff are getting 100% of these digital tips or the employer is keeping some/all of it.
I'm pretty sure there are tax/fraud implications if they call it a tip or service fee and then pocket the cash. But yeah it's not like wait staff typically have tons of negotiating power.
> Hm. This has been pretty common in larger cities for a while, mostly because the service staff actually need the tips to like not be literally homeless.
This is fucked up on its face. They should be making $15/hr or whatever the living wage is in the area (probably more) and tips should be on top of this. How did tipping go from a bonus to something someone needs to survive?
Edit:
> I'm pretty sure there are tax/fraud implications if they call it a tip or service fee and then pocket the cash. But yeah it's not like wait staff typically have tons of negotiating power.
If a company as large and with as many workers as DoorDash was able to get away with it for over a year[1], I'm sure that there are small businesses out there doing it unnoticed. I'm not sure how a worker could confirm they were paid out fairly without independently keeping track of every customer's bill for the night. This is complicated even more when there is tip sharing between "front" and "back" of house.
I hope I'm wrong though.
[1] https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/doordash-settles-lawsuit-fo...
This is fucked up on its face. They should be making $15/hr or whatever the living wage is in the area (probably more) and tips should be on top of this. How did tipping go from a bonus to something someone needs to survive?
Edit:
> I'm pretty sure there are tax/fraud implications if they call it a tip or service fee and then pocket the cash. But yeah it's not like wait staff typically have tons of negotiating power.
If a company as large and with as many workers as DoorDash was able to get away with it for over a year[1], I'm sure that there are small businesses out there doing it unnoticed. I'm not sure how a worker could confirm they were paid out fairly without independently keeping track of every customer's bill for the night. This is complicated even more when there is tip sharing between "front" and "back" of house.
I hope I'm wrong though.
[1] https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/doordash-settles-lawsuit-fo...
> This is fucked up on its face. They should be making $15/hr or whatever the living wage is in the area (probably more) and tips should be on top of this. How did tipping go from a bonus to something someone needs to survive?
Regardless, that ship sailed a long time ago. Restaurants have tried the "tip in price" model. It doesn't work; homo economicus is a lie. Consumer behavior is pretty well understood on this question. Remember that if the restaurant goes under then everyone loses their jobs anyways.
The only viable solution that ensures decent pay and also keeps the business viable is to implement it as "mandatory tipping".
> If a company as large and with as many workers as DoorDash was able to get away with it for over a year[1], I'm sure that there are small businesses out there doing it unnoticed.
Agreed. But tip theft happens regardless. I don't think the "mandatory tip" model makes it either harder or easier. At the end of the day most people pay with credit and the owner of the restaurant owns the till that counts out that tips.
I'm not saying that this situation is ideal; I'm just saying: what's the alternative that actually works?
Regardless, that ship sailed a long time ago. Restaurants have tried the "tip in price" model. It doesn't work; homo economicus is a lie. Consumer behavior is pretty well understood on this question. Remember that if the restaurant goes under then everyone loses their jobs anyways.
The only viable solution that ensures decent pay and also keeps the business viable is to implement it as "mandatory tipping".
> If a company as large and with as many workers as DoorDash was able to get away with it for over a year[1], I'm sure that there are small businesses out there doing it unnoticed.
Agreed. But tip theft happens regardless. I don't think the "mandatory tip" model makes it either harder or easier. At the end of the day most people pay with credit and the owner of the restaurant owns the till that counts out that tips.
I'm not saying that this situation is ideal; I'm just saying: what's the alternative that actually works?
That would be an instant chargeback on my part
One of the problems I increasingly find is that you are not only required to do this "shadow work", but the interfaces thought which you do it are anything but efficient and haphazardly designed in the cheapest way possible.
After reading another comment on this thread about being overcharged by Xfinity, I decided to go see about my Xfinity account. Just trying to view my bill, I was constantly faced with blank white pages loading and loading, on a gigabit connection it took me on average of 5 seconds to load every page and about a minute or two of waiting on pages and refreshing pages to deal with errors before I could view my bill.
And that's one of the major problems I see everywhere, especially in healthcare. Not only do you have to perform this "shadow work", you are given a bare minimum interface to perform it through. Like for crying out loud how much money would it take for a healthcare site to let me log in and browse around to view my health plan without going to 10 redirects, 3 layout shifts, and 30 seconds of loading.
After reading another comment on this thread about being overcharged by Xfinity, I decided to go see about my Xfinity account. Just trying to view my bill, I was constantly faced with blank white pages loading and loading, on a gigabit connection it took me on average of 5 seconds to load every page and about a minute or two of waiting on pages and refreshing pages to deal with errors before I could view my bill.
And that's one of the major problems I see everywhere, especially in healthcare. Not only do you have to perform this "shadow work", you are given a bare minimum interface to perform it through. Like for crying out loud how much money would it take for a healthcare site to let me log in and browse around to view my health plan without going to 10 redirects, 3 layout shifts, and 30 seconds of loading.
I've thought deeply about the problem and I think the solution is fairly simple; account for the cost. Businesses are simple and will react in kind. Either shift the burden of proof - aka, force incorrect billings to face steep penalties or charge for the time it takes to resolve problems.
Technically, every minute I'm on hold is a benefit to the corporation. I'm not wasting their resources. Imagine if you were paid, something like minimum wage, to wait on hold. Suddenly there's a real incentive to quickly resolve problems.
Turn implicit problems into explicit ones and you'll be amazed at how quickly the explicit problems disappear.
Technically, every minute I'm on hold is a benefit to the corporation. I'm not wasting their resources. Imagine if you were paid, something like minimum wage, to wait on hold. Suddenly there's a real incentive to quickly resolve problems.
Turn implicit problems into explicit ones and you'll be amazed at how quickly the explicit problems disappear.
The businesses have bought the politicians and that expense is just included as cost of doing business these days. How would you enact these changes given this reality?
We just saw a multi year effort to enact right to repair get destroyed by the stroke of a pen in NY state. There seems to be little to no hope.
We just saw a multi year effort to enact right to repair get destroyed by the stroke of a pen in NY state. There seems to be little to no hope.
[deleted]
How do people feel about this when it happens at work?
Personally, I kind of like that at my place of work we're expected to (sometimes) clean the coffee cups, organize our own office party, haul boxes of old documents to the shredder and so on. I dread the day that a manager will realize that they can squeeze another little bit of productivity out of us by hiring an assistant for this kind of stuff, it would make me feel even more like a cog in the machine.
Personally, I kind of like that at my place of work we're expected to (sometimes) clean the coffee cups, organize our own office party, haul boxes of old documents to the shredder and so on. I dread the day that a manager will realize that they can squeeze another little bit of productivity out of us by hiring an assistant for this kind of stuff, it would make me feel even more like a cog in the machine.
I don't know what we can even do about this. Where's the government? They don't have my back. "Competition" is a non-solution. I have one other cable provider in my area and they have all the same anti-customer incentives as Xfinity. It's legimately criminal, though obviously not illegal, since we know who pays the folks who write the laws...