Brave buys a search engine, promises no tracking, no profiling(theregister.com)
theregister.com
Brave buys a search engine, promises no tracking, no profiling
https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/03/brave_buys_a_search_engine/
411 comments
In my understanding what Cliqz did, at least in the beginning, was to buy clickstream data and then build an index on top of that. So in a sense they just scraped Googles' search index, as almost all users rely on Google for finding stuff on the web. The clickstream data gives you both the search query and the website(s) users visit after searching, so it's pretty easy to build a search index from that, at least for popular searches (it might be more difficult for the long tail of search queries).
A lot of the clickstream data you can buy comes from browser extensions btw, and often gets collected without users knowing about it (looking at you, "Web of Trust"). I think their reliance on such data was the reason Cliqz acquired Ghostery, which also collects a copious amount of "anonymous" data from its users. On one hand it's a neat idea since you're basically standing on Googles' shoulders, on the other hand it's at least questionable for a "privacy-first" company as the generation of the search index is based on personal data mined from (often unwitting) users.
That said I don't know how their system evolved, so maybe today they have another way to build their index.
A lot of the clickstream data you can buy comes from browser extensions btw, and often gets collected without users knowing about it (looking at you, "Web of Trust"). I think their reliance on such data was the reason Cliqz acquired Ghostery, which also collects a copious amount of "anonymous" data from its users. On one hand it's a neat idea since you're basically standing on Googles' shoulders, on the other hand it's at least questionable for a "privacy-first" company as the generation of the search index is based on personal data mined from (often unwitting) users.
That said I don't know how their system evolved, so maybe today they have another way to build their index.
Brave has a long way to go to build real trust. Too many reckless stuff: hijacking links, suspicious url-rewriting, crypto-token stunts, forgetting to communicate with users about serious privacy leaks with their faulty TOR window... also it looks like they care about privacy only in their PR brochures.
I don't feel that good about this.
The thing is that Cliqz was "majority-owned by Hubert Burda Media" [1], and that "The deal, terms undisclosed, makes Cliqz owner Hubert Burda Media a Brave shareholder." [2]
Doesn't Hubert Burda Media have a interest in removing ad-blocking technologies from the web? Couldn't partnering with Brave get them into a privileged position where they are capable of displaying ads and build user profiles?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliqz [2] https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/03/brave_buys_a_search_e...
The thing is that Cliqz was "majority-owned by Hubert Burda Media" [1], and that "The deal, terms undisclosed, makes Cliqz owner Hubert Burda Media a Brave shareholder." [2]
Doesn't Hubert Burda Media have a interest in removing ad-blocking technologies from the web? Couldn't partnering with Brave get them into a privileged position where they are capable of displaying ads and build user profiles?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliqz [2] https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/03/brave_buys_a_search_e...
Excited that Brave is playing a pioneering role here with leveraging cryptocurrencies and distributed tech (including Web3) who's time, it looks like, will come. It helps that a Browser is close to a perfect environment from which to challenge the incumbents heavily dependent on ad revenues.
> Brave Search's index there will be informed the activities of participating Brave users, in terms of the URLs they search for or click on, and adjacent web resources that don't require extensive crawling.
This is quite similar to Amazon's now-defunct A9.com which, iirc, had some form of hybrid search engine that was built on search / ad results from Google and the data Amazon collected via the Alexa toolbar.
> The Brave Search team has written a paper explaining its use of the term, titled "GOGGLES: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web." The browser upstart aims to replace the tyranny of Google's inscrutable, authoritative index with a multiverse of indices defined by anyone with the inclination to do so.
Again, very similar to WAIS. Has Eich been speaking to Brewster Kahle? :)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A9.com#History
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_information_server
> Brave Search's index there will be informed the activities of participating Brave users, in terms of the URLs they search for or click on, and adjacent web resources that don't require extensive crawling.
This is quite similar to Amazon's now-defunct A9.com which, iirc, had some form of hybrid search engine that was built on search / ad results from Google and the data Amazon collected via the Alexa toolbar.
> The Brave Search team has written a paper explaining its use of the term, titled "GOGGLES: Democracy dies in darkness, and so does the Web." The browser upstart aims to replace the tyranny of Google's inscrutable, authoritative index with a multiverse of indices defined by anyone with the inclination to do so.
Again, very similar to WAIS. Has Eich been speaking to Brewster Kahle? :)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A9.com#History
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_information_server
> Brave Search's index there will be informed the activities of participating Brave users, in terms of the URLs they search for or click on, and adjacent web resources that don't require extensive crawling.
> Brave also envisions users taking a more active role in their search results through a filtering mechanism.
"It allows different groups to run their own sort of Turing complete filter rules, sort of like ad blocking rules in the search service and not in the browser, to have a community moderated view of the global index," he [Brendan Eich, Brave founder] explained. "It's called 'Goggles.'"
> Brave also envisions users taking a more active role in their search results through a filtering mechanism.
"It allows different groups to run their own sort of Turing complete filter rules, sort of like ad blocking rules in the search service and not in the browser, to have a community moderated view of the global index," he [Brendan Eich, Brave founder] explained. "It's called 'Goggles.'"
Cliqz seemed like a very promising search engine [1], so I'm glad that they've found a new home where they can try again.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20200501194956/https://cliqz.com...
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20200501194956/https://cliqz.com...
"The service will, eventually, be available as a paid option..."
This is the future of services on the internet. The 'cult of free' should die off as people realize they don't want to be bought and sold like digital cattle.
This is the future of services on the internet. The 'cult of free' should die off as people realize they don't want to be bought and sold like digital cattle.
Mozilla was sending your browser history to Cliqz in Germany.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/firefox-tests-cliqz-engine-whi...
Glad to see more interest in privacy focused search, but why not just not contribute to something like duckduckgo that's already doing good work in that space?
There was this wonderful podcast featuring Eich a few days ago:
"Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krB0enBeSiE
"Brendan Eich: JavaScript, Firefox, Mozilla, and Brave"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krB0enBeSiE
I keep waiting for Apple to introduce their own search engine. They are already pushing on the privacy angle, so it would seem to make logical sense to dump Google and have their own search engine. I think switching the iPhone/Safari search engine to their own search would be devastating to Google.
Basically, they would be doing a similar strategy that Microsoft used against Netscape. As I remember it, in the MSFT/Netscape case, they gave away IE and the web server, crippling Netscape's ability to make money. MSFT didn't have to make money off either as they made money off the OS.
In this case, ads are the core of Google revenue. Apple, however, doesn't need to care about that (yes, it would be a loss in revenue). So they dump Google and Google loses a major source of revenue and data.
Obviously there would be some anti-trust issues - I assume that's what is holding them back.
Basically, they would be doing a similar strategy that Microsoft used against Netscape. As I remember it, in the MSFT/Netscape case, they gave away IE and the web server, crippling Netscape's ability to make money. MSFT didn't have to make money off either as they made money off the OS.
In this case, ads are the core of Google revenue. Apple, however, doesn't need to care about that (yes, it would be a loss in revenue). So they dump Google and Google loses a major source of revenue and data.
Obviously there would be some anti-trust issues - I assume that's what is holding them back.
Using brave for more than a year now on my phone I sometimes forget how terrible mobile browsing is for most people. The only thing that reminds me is when I sometimes open a website in Chrome.
If the trend of paid search engines or browsers start I am buying. Ads and tracking are cancer of modern life. It's literally offering free stuff to make your life worse in exchange. It's "I will give you this item if you let me punch you in the face" kind of deal.
I can't wait to support a company that collects money for their software and uses part of it to fight the cancer.
If the trend of paid search engines or browsers start I am buying. Ads and tracking are cancer of modern life. It's literally offering free stuff to make your life worse in exchange. It's "I will give you this item if you let me punch you in the face" kind of deal.
I can't wait to support a company that collects money for their software and uses part of it to fight the cancer.
can we trust brave? They have become too shady in my opinion like inserting referral etc?
I am really impressed with Brave team work, they are spearheading work that pushes web forward, kind of what Mozilla was supposed to do.
I really love ipfs work they did and completely ready that not everything will pan out.
I really love ipfs work they did and completely ready that not everything will pan out.
Anyone building (or in this case, buying) a search engine takes a fight they cannot meaningfully make impact.
1. Privacy is a feature, not a platform. If the search engine cannot deliver better results than google or bing (a tall order) then there is no reason to use it no matter how private.
2. Google has a 20+ year head start and billions invested. You will not catch up playing the same game (eg - broad search). Google, for all its faults, is amazing technology. If you try to be a general search engine and compete I do not see a win.
3. Find another strategy, like BETTER search results within a niche. Curated by subject matter experts and enthusiasts.
4. Source your search results from trustworthy data sources. SEO has ruined search. Google setup the rules and the Black/Grey/Whitehat practitioners out-smartted them every step of the way. It is full of crappy data sources.
5. Curation, not scale is the key here. I don't see a win for Brave.
1. Privacy is a feature, not a platform. If the search engine cannot deliver better results than google or bing (a tall order) then there is no reason to use it no matter how private.
2. Google has a 20+ year head start and billions invested. You will not catch up playing the same game (eg - broad search). Google, for all its faults, is amazing technology. If you try to be a general search engine and compete I do not see a win.
3. Find another strategy, like BETTER search results within a niche. Curated by subject matter experts and enthusiasts.
4. Source your search results from trustworthy data sources. SEO has ruined search. Google setup the rules and the Black/Grey/Whitehat practitioners out-smartted them every step of the way. It is full of crappy data sources.
5. Curation, not scale is the key here. I don't see a win for Brave.
Goggles sounds cool at first, but it's very hard for me to imagine goggles that I'd be interested in actually using. Maybe clever people will come up with something awesome, but the fact that I can't come up with an example that I would want is a bit of an alarm bell.
What I want to see in a search engine is this: An array of customizable buttons that you can select to hint at the type of search that you are doing. News, Technical, Shopping. Especially one to filter out all shopping related results.
For example, if I want to learn about a country, I do not want any travel related stuff in my search results. On the other hand, if I am looking for ideas for my next holidays, throw all the flight, hotel, beach infos about that country at me that you have.
Or give me a button that limits my search result to stackoverflow and stackexchange. Their own search engine sucks ass, so i have to rely on google (using "site:stackoverflow.com").
Give me this and a decent search results, and you have a paying customer.
For example, if I want to learn about a country, I do not want any travel related stuff in my search results. On the other hand, if I am looking for ideas for my next holidays, throw all the flight, hotel, beach infos about that country at me that you have.
Or give me a button that limits my search result to stackoverflow and stackexchange. Their own search engine sucks ass, so i have to rely on google (using "site:stackoverflow.com").
Give me this and a decent search results, and you have a paying customer.
A way to compete with Google is to leverage user's search trails in the browser - by recording the click paths on Google (and other search engines).
Recording and intersecting search trails is covered by this patent:
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2005069161A1
The rationale is here:
https://www.jinfo.com/go/blog/2505
Recording and intersecting search trails is covered by this patent:
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2005069161A1
The rationale is here:
https://www.jinfo.com/go/blog/2505
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26328872
(I'm not sure if even duplicated)
(I'm not sure if even duplicated)
Matching the accuracy of Google results will be a challenge. It's remarkable how (at least for the topics I tend to search for) good the results are compared to every alternative (Bing, DDG etc). I made a search tool that filters, modifies, resorts, and adds to results from Bing's API. I no longer use it, because the base Bing results (This applies to everything else I've tried too) aren't on the same level as Google's.
After a long period of relative dominance by a single provider, there’s recently been a lot of interesting things happening in the search space. Specifically around privacy, there are multiple projects and companies working to offer us control how (and whether) our search activity is captured and monetized. But there’s no such thing as a free lunch — companies providing search services need to monetize SOMEHOW, and I think that’s the key thing to pay attention to when evaluating new services.
Brave’s approach seems to be to straddle the line a bit between free and paid — the article says there will be an option to pay for a completely ad-free version of the Brave Search service, while also having a free option that is ad supported (albeit via the unique BAT model).
It’s exciting to see these types of services starting to become available. Competition and user choice in search is a good thing for everyone involved.
Disclaimer: I work at Neeva[1], a subscription based never-any-ads search engine. These opinions are my own.
[1] https://www.neeva.com
Brave’s approach seems to be to straddle the line a bit between free and paid — the article says there will be an option to pay for a completely ad-free version of the Brave Search service, while also having a free option that is ad supported (albeit via the unique BAT model).
It’s exciting to see these types of services starting to become available. Competition and user choice in search is a good thing for everyone involved.
Disclaimer: I work at Neeva[1], a subscription based never-any-ads search engine. These opinions are my own.
[1] https://www.neeva.com
I don't know much about Brave - What is their position on censorship (other than instances when it is legally required)?
Love the audacity of building back better multiple dimensions of our internet experience.
However:
> end the debate about search engine bias by turning search result output over to a community-run filtering system called Goggles
Not sure why something "community-run" would automatically/necessarily solve bias... So looking forward to deeper thinking by the Brave team.
However:
> end the debate about search engine bias by turning search result output over to a community-run filtering system called Goggles
Not sure why something "community-run" would automatically/necessarily solve bias... So looking forward to deeper thinking by the Brave team.
Brendan Eich is doing some very important work. I hope this succeeds!
Looks like Brendan is, in a sense, in the process of cloning Google, only in reverse order: browser, ads, and now search!
Why are people so hesitant of sharing their browsing information? I think it's physiological. I'm happy that there're algorithms that analyze my behavior. Google doesn't identify me personally, it just sees me as a behavioral pattern. But it's nice to have alternative approaches.
Quote: " If you don't market it, you can lose to somebody who just puts privacy perfume on a pig and tells you it smells great and tastes delicious."
Well, pigs are tasty in the first place. Secondly, this plays on the assumption that pigs are filthy animals, which is very wrong. They like water, they like to get wet precisely because they like to be clean from parasites on skin. The fact that they do this in mud is because how humans are raising them in small filthy enclave. Given the choice, pigs will go and bathe in clean water, not mud. Or go ask any hunter to tell if they saw wild boars that are full of mud instead of actually being clean.
Well, pigs are tasty in the first place. Secondly, this plays on the assumption that pigs are filthy animals, which is very wrong. They like water, they like to get wet precisely because they like to be clean from parasites on skin. The fact that they do this in mud is because how humans are raising them in small filthy enclave. Given the choice, pigs will go and bathe in clean water, not mud. Or go ask any hunter to tell if they saw wild boars that are full of mud instead of actually being clean.
Do you think the BAT idea will turn out to be a better system in the end ? in a socially good way, people who want to contribute to society will have better data/incentives and users will have a less crowded time online.
Are there any brave users out there? no pun.
I use ff with DDG on PC and safari with DDG on ios. Never understood the reason for a move.
The ad rewards was just too much information for me, from brave.
How my viewpoint has shifted over the years. 10-20 years ago this would have instantly turned me off, but now this is the most exciting line in the entire thing to me. As long as we all expect free, we can't expect privacy.
@Brave team, who I rather expect will be reading this, I can't believe that Cliqz doing tracking on me to improve its results for free will be in my interests if it's free. But if I'm a paying customer, you might be able to convince me that you're doing some semi-invasive tracking but not actually selling it to anyone, because it wouldn't be worth losing me as a customer.
I'm actually excited about the idea of a search engine that I pay for. Been waiting for DDG to do it but last I knew there's still no option there.