About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean(docs.google.com)
docs.google.com
About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f2kYWDXwhzYnq8ebVtuk9CqQqz7ScqxhSIxeYGrWjK0/preview?pru=AAABdlNwLxs*PKCOHN-Ks0PI5nFrljenMg
573 comments
I think we’re starting to see companies discover the limits of how far they’re willing to let employees push their “woke” agenda using the company’s name.
It seems disparaging your own company while ignoring research that counters yours is Google’s limit, but we’ll have to wait to see the research paper if it leaks.
It seems disparaging your own company while ignoring research that counters yours is Google’s limit, but we’ll have to wait to see the research paper if it leaks.
This topic, over the past couple of days, seems to me to have become fraught, polarised and argued to distraction and faction.
It's not a stretch to say that the world has a problem with discrimination, or that big personalities can rock the boat when they go against the grain. Or that corporates have interests to defend.
I'd like in this case, though - not to say that all the other factors aren't worthy of examination as subjects in their own right - to see this paper. The authors/collaborators are leaders in the field. There are legitimate concerns about AI/ML; the validity/reliability of data from which, nowadays, consequential outcomes are derived.
Please, let's ignore - at least for now - the corporate politics, the heat of the race/gender politics, the PR machines weighing in (look at all the news outlets grabbing this atm), and take a look at what the paper says. The right people (those in the field and qualified/able to do so) should be listened to.
As for the politics of this, and the posturing and politicising and agenda-building on all sides: that doesn't help.
AI and ML affect us all now. This is a trend. Let's at least expose the findings of acknowledged leaders in the field - let's see this study - before we descend into the sideshows of politics and factionalism. Please.
Edit to clarify: tl;dr - I've not seen/read this contested paper. Whatever its contents, I want to see them, and imo that is more important than the current controversy blizzard etc.
It's not a stretch to say that the world has a problem with discrimination, or that big personalities can rock the boat when they go against the grain. Or that corporates have interests to defend.
I'd like in this case, though - not to say that all the other factors aren't worthy of examination as subjects in their own right - to see this paper. The authors/collaborators are leaders in the field. There are legitimate concerns about AI/ML; the validity/reliability of data from which, nowadays, consequential outcomes are derived.
Please, let's ignore - at least for now - the corporate politics, the heat of the race/gender politics, the PR machines weighing in (look at all the news outlets grabbing this atm), and take a look at what the paper says. The right people (those in the field and qualified/able to do so) should be listened to.
As for the politics of this, and the posturing and politicising and agenda-building on all sides: that doesn't help.
AI and ML affect us all now. This is a trend. Let's at least expose the findings of acknowledged leaders in the field - let's see this study - before we descend into the sideshows of politics and factionalism. Please.
Edit to clarify: tl;dr - I've not seen/read this contested paper. Whatever its contents, I want to see them, and imo that is more important than the current controversy blizzard etc.
I am reluctant to accuse Jeff Dean of bad faith, but this argument doesn't scan. I've been on the inside of an AI team during a crisis and then seen how senior management spun details to obfuscate critical details to avoid responsibility. Dean is slandering Gebru in a manner that will make it easier to dismiss her work and the work of other AI ethicists (especially women and bipoc) in the future. He and Google are actually themselves guilty of a lacking rigor (i.e. ethical rigor). Worst of all, I expect that racists inside Google and the wider industry will utilize this argumentative structure in the service of neutralizing ethicists and bipoc in the future. This is truly despicable. I used to be a great admirer of Jeff Dean.
Well, the lesson I'm taking from this is to have a good HR department, and listen to them.
One of their most valuable functions is to stop you "letting go of" people for stupid and petty reasons that blow up in your face, spectacularly.
One of their most valuable functions is to stop you "letting go of" people for stupid and petty reasons that blow up in your face, spectacularly.
Jeff tweeted that Timnit “resigned”.
I mean... come on man.
Jeff is way better than this so I really have no idea what’s going on here.
I mean... come on man.
Jeff is way better than this so I really have no idea what’s going on here.
Jeff Dean is lying:
https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1335017524937756672
> 1/Man there’s so much to pick apart. Let’s start with one thing. I want to ask if Jeff Dean has looked at the publication approval policy that he keeps on mentioning in his email. Like, for example, a simple look at the website? Let’s read.
> 2/First off “Start the PubApprove process at least 1 week in advance of any deadline”. Okay, not sure where the 2 weeks in Jeff’s email came from.
> 3/ But ALSO “The perfect policy” “There is no such thing as the perfect policy. Fortunately Googlers like to do the right thing. Please do that here—read the policy and do what makes sense.”
> 4/ ALSO “Meanwhile, we strive to make the PubApprove process as lightweight as possible: hopefully eliminating the temptation to skip it.” I don’t know man you might have to resign immediately if you just “do what makes sense” so beware.
> 5/ Finally, I wouldn’t want to know what would happen to you if you had “the temptation to skip it” mentioned on the website. Beware researchers
> 6/In spite of this, we gave a heads up BEFORE even writing the paper—on September 18. Saying that we were about to write this paper. So much to say here, so much. But I’ll stop here for now.
https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1335017524937756672
> 1/Man there’s so much to pick apart. Let’s start with one thing. I want to ask if Jeff Dean has looked at the publication approval policy that he keeps on mentioning in his email. Like, for example, a simple look at the website? Let’s read.
> 2/First off “Start the PubApprove process at least 1 week in advance of any deadline”. Okay, not sure where the 2 weeks in Jeff’s email came from.
> 3/ But ALSO “The perfect policy” “There is no such thing as the perfect policy. Fortunately Googlers like to do the right thing. Please do that here—read the policy and do what makes sense.”
> 4/ ALSO “Meanwhile, we strive to make the PubApprove process as lightweight as possible: hopefully eliminating the temptation to skip it.” I don’t know man you might have to resign immediately if you just “do what makes sense” so beware.
> 5/ Finally, I wouldn’t want to know what would happen to you if you had “the temptation to skip it” mentioned on the website. Beware researchers
> 6/In spite of this, we gave a heads up BEFORE even writing the paper—on September 18. Saying that we were about to write this paper. So much to say here, so much. But I’ll stop here for now.
Remember that Google fired James Damore for a lot less and the left was really happy about it
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I read the abstract. The paper doesn't critique Google. It critiques the current focus of AI research of building bigger and bigger models. Google is one of the leaders in building those big models. So what? They also invest in research to make smaller models that perform equally well. They have a huge incentive - those big models are very expensive. I don't think anyone at Google really care if the paper is published. I'm pretty sure it will get published sooner or later. The authors could've addressed the reviewers' comments pretty quickly and then re-submit to another conference. The whole thing blew out of proportion. She picked the wrong battle. Should've bitten the bullet.
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I don't know why Google is bothering to say anything. It's pretty obvious that those who support the person who left have anchored their opinions and won't change under any circumstances, and those defending Google are anchored as well.
It's standard practice to check in with stakeholders before submitting a paper.
The important issue in the paper seems to be that the paper villainized large language models, which Google has a vested interest in.
The paper was likely publishable with a bit more context in the introduction.
I've been in similar situations and they were handled offline.
The explosiveness of this situation seems to have been prepared the history of Timnit's relationship with Google.
This incident was just the spark.
The important issue in the paper seems to be that the paper villainized large language models, which Google has a vested interest in.
The paper was likely publishable with a bit more context in the introduction.
I've been in similar situations and they were handled offline.
The explosiveness of this situation seems to have been prepared the history of Timnit's relationship with Google.
This incident was just the spark.
Key phrase ...
> Highlighting risks without pointing out methods for researchers and developers to understand and mitigate those risks misses the mark on helping with these problems
You have to have sympathy for her position but in the end if all you do is offer criticism then it's hard to see you inside Google, let alone as a manager.
> Highlighting risks without pointing out methods for researchers and developers to understand and mitigate those risks misses the mark on helping with these problems
You have to have sympathy for her position but in the end if all you do is offer criticism then it's hard to see you inside Google, let alone as a manager.
This letter reads like Exxon-Mobil chastising their climatologist for not taking into account their latest research on fuel efficiency, or Philip Morris laying into their house doctor for discounting the psychological benefits of rich, mellow flavor.
I just can’t but feel that they entirely miss the point. Nobody is outraged that Google rejected a paper because it needed some adjustments.
What we want to know is if that is actually the case.
What we want to know is if that is actually the case.
These kind of encounters are going to be more common. AI people want to make AI. But it can be dangerous. And, by definition, we can't control AI.
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> "So if you would like to change things, I suggest focusing on leadership accountability and thinking through what types of pressures can also be applied from the outside. For instance, I believe that the Congressional Black Caucus is the entity that started forcing tech companies to report their diversity numbers. Writing more documents and saying things over and over again will tire you out but no one will listen."
People are forgetting about the part where she basically encourages her colleagues to talk to congress, at a time when tech CEOs are regularly being hauled in front of congressional committees. At the point when that is written, this clearly is an adversarial relationship between her and Google. And it wasn't Google that made it adversarial
I couldn't imagine writing something like that and keeping my job
People are forgetting about the part where she basically encourages her colleagues to talk to congress, at a time when tech CEOs are regularly being hauled in front of congressional committees. At the point when that is written, this clearly is an adversarial relationship between her and Google. And it wasn't Google that made it adversarial
I couldn't imagine writing something like that and keeping my job
I am more concerned whether she is really a good researcher or not. If she is, just continue her great work and contribute real good stuff in the field. BTW, what exactly is Ethical AI?
Jeff Dean has(/had) a cult following at Google. Internally, there was even a large collection of Jeff Dean jokes (like Chuck Norris jokes of yesteryear).
It is sad to see him drop his credibility and become a PR mouthpiece. I know how this happens and I know why. But it is still sad to watch. Like watching you favourite band sell out to a big label.
It is sad to see him drop his credibility and become a PR mouthpiece. I know how this happens and I know why. But it is still sad to watch. Like watching you favourite band sell out to a big label.
Maybe different teams are different, but on my previous team within Google AI, we thought the goal of google's pubapproval process was to ensure that internal company IP (eg. details about datasets, details about google compute infra) does not leak to the public, and maybe to shield Google from liability. Nothing more.
In all of my time at Google AI, I never heard of pubapproval being used for peer review or to critique the scientific rigor of the work. It was never used as a journal, it was an afterthought that folks on my team would usually clear only hours before important deadlines. We like to leave peer review to the conferences/journals' existing process to weed out bad papers; why duplicate that work internally?
I'm disappointed that Jeff has chosen to imply that pubapproval is used to enforce rigour. That is a new use case and not how it has been traditionally used. Pubapproval hasn't been used to silence uncomfortable minority viewpoints until now. If this has changed, it's a very, very new change.
In all of my time at Google AI, I never heard of pubapproval being used for peer review or to critique the scientific rigor of the work. It was never used as a journal, it was an afterthought that folks on my team would usually clear only hours before important deadlines. We like to leave peer review to the conferences/journals' existing process to weed out bad papers; why duplicate that work internally?
I'm disappointed that Jeff has chosen to imply that pubapproval is used to enforce rigour. That is a new use case and not how it has been traditionally used. Pubapproval hasn't been used to silence uncomfortable minority viewpoints until now. If this has changed, it's a very, very new change.
> Our aim is to rival peer-reviewed journals in terms of the rigor and thoughtfulness in how we review research before publication.
I can see how this might be frustrating for academics working within Google. The field already has systems in place for peer-review. While I admire the idea of Google holding their research to a certain standard, it also provides a mechanism for dismissing research that paints Google (the corporation) in a bad light. If a paper is good enough to pass an (external) review process, why should it not be published?
I can see how this might be frustrating for academics working within Google. The field already has systems in place for peer-review. While I admire the idea of Google holding their research to a certain standard, it also provides a mechanism for dismissing research that paints Google (the corporation) in a bad light. If a paper is good enough to pass an (external) review process, why should it not be published?
While I’m a spectator to this unfolding story and am reacting to a pretty cursory overview of what happened, this has the distinct feeling that Google thought they were moving in for a checkmate by, in their words, “accepting a resignation”, only to have it — very predictably? - blow up in their faces completely.
Even if Google is acting presenting the chain of events faithfully, their final move to jump on an opportunity to remove the researcher and call it resignation seems so aggressive and incongruous that from the outside it makes it seem like this conflict is rooted in a larger and more difficult relationship that they calculated was no longer in their interest.
I’m wondering if the cost benefit analysis is still looking that way on the inside, because this move and the attention it’s causing is so contrary to their stated goals that I have to wonder if Google is committed to those goals at all. Others must be wondering exactly the same thing.
Even if Google is acting presenting the chain of events faithfully, their final move to jump on an opportunity to remove the researcher and call it resignation seems so aggressive and incongruous that from the outside it makes it seem like this conflict is rooted in a larger and more difficult relationship that they calculated was no longer in their interest.
I’m wondering if the cost benefit analysis is still looking that way on the inside, because this move and the attention it’s causing is so contrary to their stated goals that I have to wonder if Google is committed to those goals at all. Others must be wondering exactly the same thing.
My researcher acquaintances at industry labs at IBM, Microsoft, HP, Xerox, ATT, Bell, DEC, Compaq, etc. never have had to have their papers reviewed internally before submitting them to conferences or journals. What's up with Google?
Previous threads on this ongoing story:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25292386
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25285502
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25289445
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25292386
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25285502
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25289445
It sadden me that they make Jeff Dean work on these kind of issues. His map/reduce invention brought to the world a lot more than managing his coworker egos.
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It appears that this was released intentionally by Dean.
But in case it wasn't, or in case it gets altered/updated - it's been archived [1].
[1] https://archive.is/VpAN8
[1] https://archive.is/VpAN8
Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t meet these demands, she would leave Google and work on an end date. We accept and respect her decision to resign from Google.
This sheds some new light...
This sheds some new light...
People claiming that the deficiencies in the paper are minor and wouldn't be blockers obviously have little experience submitting to academic journals. Other parts of Google doing deeply technical work probably don't have the same level of review as the Ethical AI group -- for obvious reasons.
There is usually a long back and forth -- there are even memes about the infuriating comments from "Reviewer 2" [1][2]. Omitting to mention argument-obsoleting developments in the field (from your own lab!) is more than enough to send you back to extensive redrafting.
To be clear on terminology -- a retraction is an academic black mark, and occurs to a paper after publication, usually for reasons of research misconduct. This is not an instance of that.
[1] https://twitter.com/redpenblackpen/status/113344056990719590... [2] http://jasonya.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/PowerRespon...