I want to pay for TextMate 2(marco.org)
marco.org
I want to pay for TextMate 2
http://www.marco.org/2011/09/27/textmate-2-free-upgrade
232 comments
Parity with Emacs?
M-x no-way-no-how > I have a lot of trouble understanding this mentality.
You may not like the food, but it seems others did, and they want to demonstrate that to the chef.
As I said: I can understand Marco wanting to pay. I didn't like my meal, Marco did, and he should feel free to give a great tip.
I'm focused on the people who are saying that Macromates should charge users for the upgrade they said would be free. This would be equivalent to someone saying that, because they enjoyed their meal at the restaurant, the restaurant should charge a mandatory 25% tip to all current patrons of the restaurant. That's a very different situation.
I'm focused on the people who are saying that Macromates should charge users for the upgrade they said would be free. This would be equivalent to someone saying that, because they enjoyed their meal at the restaurant, the restaurant should charge a mandatory 25% tip to all current patrons of the restaurant. That's a very different situation.
I think you're right that everyone shouldn't be charged because Marco and others think the product is worth it. Some bought it on the promise of a free upgrade.
An upgrade to version 2 wasn't part of the "value" I attributed to TM when I bought it years ago, so were it not free, I'd seriously consider buying anyway (even though I do little coding nowadays, and am impressed with SublimeText2).
So, count me as mixed on the whole thing. I wouldn't balk at a nominal upgrade fee, and don't begrudge those who want to pay more, but sympathize with those who bought on the promise of an upgrade years ago.
An upgrade to version 2 wasn't part of the "value" I attributed to TM when I bought it years ago, so were it not free, I'd seriously consider buying anyway (even though I do little coding nowadays, and am impressed with SublimeText2).
So, count me as mixed on the whole thing. I wouldn't balk at a nominal upgrade fee, and don't begrudge those who want to pay more, but sympathize with those who bought on the promise of an upgrade years ago.
I never would have bought TM1 w/o the promise of TM2.
Even with that, I kind of regret buying it. For how I used it, it was a decent text editor that allowed me to experience the spinning beach ball of death at least 10 times a day.
Even with that, I kind of regret buying it. For how I used it, it was a decent text editor that allowed me to experience the spinning beach ball of death at least 10 times a day.
I thought the free upgrades forever deal for Minecraft was great. I only rarely get to game and if I had to upgrade every six months to play with everyone else it'd be prohibitive.
It's a big obligation that the maker of Textmate and Notch of Minecraft took on but founders do sillier things (look at the deals VCs cut) for funding.
It's a big obligation that the maker of Textmate and Notch of Minecraft took on but founders do sillier things (look at the deals VCs cut) for funding.
Accidentally down instead of up voted you. Apologies.
This is exactly what I was thinking. If Macro wants to give someone more money than power to him. There are developers who I've bought additional licenses for friends in the slim hope that they would use the app but worst case I supported the developer.
Forcing everyone to support your love for a developer is asine. Macro may be head over heels for TextMate but there are a lot of people who are extremely frustrated with broken promises from MacroMates. Forcing them to pay more is a slap in the face.
Forcing everyone to support your love for a developer is asine. Macro may be head over heels for TextMate but there are a lot of people who are extremely frustrated with broken promises from MacroMates. Forcing them to pay more is a slap in the face.
Then here's an idea that may make everybody here happy: the price for the software new is $60. The price for the software with a code from the previous edition is what you want. You can put in $60, or $0, or $256. How 'bout that?
Marco's position, which I support, is a little like Warren Buffett pointing out that his taxes are too low, which I also support.
People who reply "Well if you think your taxes are so low, make a voluntary contribution" are probably-deliberately overlooking that the goal isn't for an individual to pay more, it's to provide meaningful support to the entity which needs the revenue, whether that's Allen Odgaard or the US government.
People who reply "Well if you think your taxes are so low, make a voluntary contribution" are probably-deliberately overlooking that the goal isn't for an individual to pay more, it's to provide meaningful support to the entity which needs the revenue, whether that's Allen Odgaard or the US government.
People didn't agree to pay taxes because they were promised that their taxes would remain at X rate for Y period of time.
People did agree to buy TM1 because of the promise of a free upgrade to TM2.
People did agree to buy TM1 because of the promise of a free upgrade to TM2.
I'm not suggesting a "voluntary contribution" (i.e. a donate button beside a free download link.) I'm suggesting a real payment/checkout process, with a lot of inbuilt social pressure to put in a number that's not zero. You know, like how the Humble Indie Bundles work.
I believe (and imagine this is what grandparent meant) that this looks more like a case of "every table will leave a tip, so just charge more than the original menu price when the bill comes".
IMHO If Mr. Pink does not want to tip he should have the right not to do it, since that was the original agreement.
IMHO If Mr. Pink does not want to tip he should have the right not to do it, since that was the original agreement.
Not a great analogy: while almost everyone else at the restaurant works for tips, the chef doesn't.
Your example is horrid. Tips are in no way a signal to the chef.
In fact, you're "supposed" to tip about the same for a poorly cooked meal as a good one so as to avoid unreasonably short-changing your server who had nothing to do with the quality.
Tips are merely how restaurants get away with lying about their prices. They don't pay their employees minimum wage knowing you'll be gullible enough to pay the unannounced post-bill markup without a fuss.
In fact, you're "supposed" to tip about the same for a poorly cooked meal as a good one so as to avoid unreasonably short-changing your server who had nothing to do with the quality.
Tips are merely how restaurants get away with lying about their prices. They don't pay their employees minimum wage knowing you'll be gullible enough to pay the unannounced post-bill markup without a fuss.
It's very likely that the original promise ("upgrade to version 2.0 will be completely free") was a huge factor in 2.0 shipping delay: Allan would need to invest a lot of effort to ship the new version to get only marginal return, as TextMate penetration of the relevant market was already high at the time the promise was made.
Charging for 2.0 would seem like a breach of contract for people who only bought TextMate 1.x because they were expecting 2.0 soon. But for people who thought that $60 is a fair price for 1.x (I myself belong to this group, and so seem Marco), it's just a promise of a generous gift that was taken away.
I for one would gladly pay for all hard work that went into rewriting TextMate.
Charging for 2.0 would seem like a breach of contract for people who only bought TextMate 1.x because they were expecting 2.0 soon. But for people who thought that $60 is a fair price for 1.x (I myself belong to this group, and so seem Marco), it's just a promise of a generous gift that was taken away.
I for one would gladly pay for all hard work that went into rewriting TextMate.
I can't believe there are so many cheapskates in here.
It's $60! WHO CARES! It's a tool you presumably use every single hour of your programming life. I refuse to accept that you feel personally violated over an idiot promise the author made six years ago.
Are people really saying that if the dude came out and said, "Hey guys, it's done but… if I keep my original promise, I literally won't be able to afford the bandwidth needed to distribute it" you'd feel personally slighted?
I'm not a fan of paying for dev tools, as I think open source is the way to go (yadda yadda yadda) but you're a professional for crying out loud. You get to write this off on your taxes.
It's $60! WHO CARES! It's a tool you presumably use every single hour of your programming life. I refuse to accept that you feel personally violated over an idiot promise the author made six years ago.
Are people really saying that if the dude came out and said, "Hey guys, it's done but… if I keep my original promise, I literally won't be able to afford the bandwidth needed to distribute it" you'd feel personally slighted?
I'm not a fan of paying for dev tools, as I think open source is the way to go (yadda yadda yadda) but you're a professional for crying out loud. You get to write this off on your taxes.
You're making the same faulty assumption that Marco does: that everyone who bought TextMate is a fellow software developer living in a wealthy nation. Many of the "cheapskates in here" are happy to pay twice, but recognize that it's a privilege to be able to do so.
Bro, c'mon now. I hate using this argument, but if you can afford a macbook you can definitely pony up $60 for your main development tool. Dude's running a business, not a charity.
Shit, I use vim. If you're so screwed for cash there are a couple of first class alternatives.
EDIT: I use a macbook too. I think it's a great dev platform. It only represents about 5% of my yearly income, though. I doubt I'd be using it if it were costing me 20% of my yearly income.
Shit, I use vim. If you're so screwed for cash there are a couple of first class alternatives.
EDIT: I use a macbook too. I think it's a great dev platform. It only represents about 5% of my yearly income, though. I doubt I'd be using it if it were costing me 20% of my yearly income.
The macbook I use cost about the same as my current monthly salary and is probably equivalent to 4-6 months of discretionary spending. It's not technically mine, either. It belongs to the company I work for.
Call me a "cheapskate" if you will, but there's no way I'd pay $60 USD for a text editor with the promise of a free upgrade, and then pay $60 again when the seller decided to renege on that promise.
You make a lot of money. Good for you. Feel free to donate however much you believe appropriate to whatever businesses you'd like but please keep your value judgments about the rest of us to yourself.
Call me a "cheapskate" if you will, but there's no way I'd pay $60 USD for a text editor with the promise of a free upgrade, and then pay $60 again when the seller decided to renege on that promise.
You make a lot of money. Good for you. Feel free to donate however much you believe appropriate to whatever businesses you'd like but please keep your value judgments about the rest of us to yourself.
>It's not technically mine, either. It belongs to the company I work for.
Well, then you're probably not paying for your own licenses either. Ask your company dept to put in for a license.
>The macbook I use cost about the same as my current monthly salary. You make a lot of money. Good for you.
Well, then that means that it represents 8% of your yearly income instead of my 5%.
I live in Canada; I suspect my cost of living is higher than yours. Blah, blah, etc. What'shisface lives in an expensive country and he doesn't have an effective way to segment the market so you can get a discount.
The point just is that what'shisface made a mistake and considering the role the tool has in your workflow that it's reasonable for him to renegue on his 6 year old promise just so he can keep putting food on his table and continue to produce more updates.
Well, then you're probably not paying for your own licenses either. Ask your company dept to put in for a license.
>The macbook I use cost about the same as my current monthly salary. You make a lot of money. Good for you.
Well, then that means that it represents 8% of your yearly income instead of my 5%.
I live in Canada; I suspect my cost of living is higher than yours. Blah, blah, etc. What'shisface lives in an expensive country and he doesn't have an effective way to segment the market so you can get a discount.
The point just is that what'shisface made a mistake and considering the role the tool has in your workflow that it's reasonable for him to renegue on his 6 year old promise just so he can keep putting food on his table and continue to produce more updates.
> Ask your company dept to put in for a license.
They're run like a business, not a charity, so I'm sure they'll be thrilled to support a fellow business reneging on an inconvenient contract.
They're run like a business, not a charity, so I'm sure they'll be thrilled to support a fellow business reneging on an inconvenient contract.
Did you honestly only buy TextMate based on that promise of a free upgrade? Was that a legally acknowledged part of the contract of the sale?
I can’t help feeling that, if you weren’t satisfied with TM1 to some reasonable amount, you wouldn’t have been prepared to pay the original $60 for it. So you must have be relatively satisfied. Or have you been using TM1 under sufferance all these years or not using it at all but effectively just made an early purchase of TM2. Neither of those seem particularly likely to me.
I can’t help feeling that, if you weren’t satisfied with TM1 to some reasonable amount, you wouldn’t have been prepared to pay the original $60 for it. So you must have be relatively satisfied. Or have you been using TM1 under sufferance all these years or not using it at all but effectively just made an early purchase of TM2. Neither of those seem particularly likely to me.
I agree, that's a huge disparity. (Did you pay $60 for the original Textmate?)
Hate these elitist comments (hope you get hellbanned, I sincerely do).
Most of the people I know got their macbooks by giving up a large chunk of their salary (some people earn less than its price). But they bought it anyway since its a solid development platform (and they wanted to venture into the iOS platform). Some gave up a large chunk of their scholarship. Some got it from their company and some bought it second hand from someone going abroad and wanted to shed some wait so sold it at a very small price. Almost no one was very comfortable paying the price of the first license since 60$ was a lot of money (even more so back then) but they thought it will pay out in the long term. They already feel cheated that they had to wait more than a few years for the next update. But it was a good tool none the less.
>Dude's running a business, not a charity.
Yes, exactly. So at the least you gather that. When MS or Apple says something related to license they do it. Apple recently told new customers don't wait till the next OSX upgrade to buy your new macbook, buy it now and we would give you an upgrade free of cost. And they did exactly that. How is this promise different. If he made a mistake in calculating initial cost, its his mistake and he has to own up to it. Why punish the customers? Not everybody who develops on a macbook lives in a first world country. You have a sick elitist mentality.
Edit:
PS:
>Bro, c'mon now
I have been on and off for a while,I missed when Jersey Shore hit HN.
Most of the people I know got their macbooks by giving up a large chunk of their salary (some people earn less than its price). But they bought it anyway since its a solid development platform (and they wanted to venture into the iOS platform). Some gave up a large chunk of their scholarship. Some got it from their company and some bought it second hand from someone going abroad and wanted to shed some wait so sold it at a very small price. Almost no one was very comfortable paying the price of the first license since 60$ was a lot of money (even more so back then) but they thought it will pay out in the long term. They already feel cheated that they had to wait more than a few years for the next update. But it was a good tool none the less.
>Dude's running a business, not a charity.
Yes, exactly. So at the least you gather that. When MS or Apple says something related to license they do it. Apple recently told new customers don't wait till the next OSX upgrade to buy your new macbook, buy it now and we would give you an upgrade free of cost. And they did exactly that. How is this promise different. If he made a mistake in calculating initial cost, its his mistake and he has to own up to it. Why punish the customers? Not everybody who develops on a macbook lives in a first world country. You have a sick elitist mentality.
Edit:
PS:
>Bro, c'mon now
I have been on and off for a while,I missed when Jersey Shore hit HN.
Listen. I bought my macbook when I was a student and it was considerably more than my current income level.
I understand all of this.
You still don't need to use Textmate. I've never used textmate; I'm a professional developer.
>How is this promise different. If he made a mistake in calculating initial cost, its his mistake and he has to own up to it.
He's a one man operation. The risks are different, and he's likelier to go bankrupt. What-I'm-saying-here is… that I would have an exceedingly easy time forgiving him.
All of this is assuming he will own up to it. He posts a blog post grovelling to his customers and apologizing to everyone in sight, blah blah.
>I have been on and off for a while,I missed when Jersey Shore hit HN.
Stop being a jackass.
FYI, you're being "elitist" because you're implying that someone who watches Jersey Shore is beneath HN.
>(hope you get hellbanned, I sincerely do)
Isn't that a little bit shitty of you to say? You know, I kind of hate this about HN. Secret bans, unexplained rules, etc etc. Everyone worships to the entrepreneur ideal but I'm not convinced most people have had to think about operating as a business.
I understand all of this.
You still don't need to use Textmate. I've never used textmate; I'm a professional developer.
>How is this promise different. If he made a mistake in calculating initial cost, its his mistake and he has to own up to it.
He's a one man operation. The risks are different, and he's likelier to go bankrupt. What-I'm-saying-here is… that I would have an exceedingly easy time forgiving him.
All of this is assuming he will own up to it. He posts a blog post grovelling to his customers and apologizing to everyone in sight, blah blah.
>I have been on and off for a while,I missed when Jersey Shore hit HN.
Stop being a jackass.
FYI, you're being "elitist" because you're implying that someone who watches Jersey Shore is beneath HN.
>(hope you get hellbanned, I sincerely do)
Isn't that a little bit shitty of you to say? You know, I kind of hate this about HN. Secret bans, unexplained rules, etc etc. Everyone worships to the entrepreneur ideal but I'm not convinced most people have had to think about operating as a business.
> Hate these elitist comments
<blabla>
>I have been on and off for a while,I missed when Jersey Shore hit HN.
Shoot yourself in the foot much?
Shoot yourself in the foot much?
I am not being elitist here (I so saw this type of comment coming my way). When did asking when a trend hit a community became derogatory to that trend?
Yeah right, to the one downvoting, can you please explain how that is derogatory?
Nobody forced these people you mention to "venture into iOS platform", its their own damn money and they can do what they want.
Stop whining about the purcheses you make. If you can pay for a mac more than your salary, you sure as hell can pay for $100 for a text-editor.
I have some really nice snake oil here for you, only $199! With a promise you will get another batch in 10 years for now!
Stop whining about the purcheses you make. If you can pay for a mac more than your salary, you sure as hell can pay for $100 for a text-editor.
I have some really nice snake oil here for you, only $199! With a promise you will get another batch in 10 years for now!
They are not whining about purchases, they are expressing grievances if the seller chances the terms of the license which they purchase.
> Dude's running a business, not a charity.
So everyone should give him more money than he originally agreed to take to provide a product? Sounds like an, uh, donation.
So everyone should give him more money than he originally agreed to take to provide a product? Sounds like an, uh, donation.
People break contracts all the time. In fact, if you are losing money on a deal it's your duty as a rational actor to break your contract.
Underwater on your mortgage? Foreclose it.
Underwater on your mortgage? Foreclose it.
Yes and you are likely to have some ramifications for breaking said contract. Most of the comments here are along the lines of not agreeing with marco's sentiment of we won't fault you. They will fault him and his breaking of the contract will not be all cheers.
If I were a textmate user I would be looking at alternatives that actually deliver updates in a timely manner and don't break promises.
If I were a textmate user I would be looking at alternatives that actually deliver updates in a timely manner and don't break promises.
OMG! Seriously? What kind of stupid logic is that? If you use this line with your business, prepare for the shit storm that will come to your way. I'll report you to the BBB, file a law suit against you and pre up a class action law suit to rape you into bankruptcy and make sure no one will ever do business with you again.
You agree to a contact and now you want to back out of it. Yes, people break contacts all the time but be prepare for a shit storm that will rip you apart.
You agree to a contact and now you want to back out of it. Yes, people break contacts all the time but be prepare for a shit storm that will rip you apart.
>I'll report you to the BBB, file a law suit against you and pre up a class action law suit to rape you into bankruptcy and make sure no one will ever do business with you again.
No, you won't, because unless you're a lawyer even thinking about it for too long will be more expensive than the license in the first place.
This happens a LOT.
Your client doesn't pay within 90 days. Do you automatically sue them? No. Do you refuse to work with them in the future? It depends; if you automatically rejected every client who breaks the contract by not paying exactly on time you probably would run out of clients very quickly.
You need to be in the hole for something like $50,000 before it's worth the money involved in suing someone. So most of the time people cut deals and work something out.
Let's suppose you're underwater on your mortgage.
It's hell on your credit rating, but if it's not your DREAM HOUSE you'd be stupid to stick with the loan.
Let's suppose you bid on a construction project, but a machine somewhere broke and you can't afford to replace it. Finishing the bid will make you go bankrupt; it's more rational to break the contract.
No, you won't, because unless you're a lawyer even thinking about it for too long will be more expensive than the license in the first place.
This happens a LOT.
Your client doesn't pay within 90 days. Do you automatically sue them? No. Do you refuse to work with them in the future? It depends; if you automatically rejected every client who breaks the contract by not paying exactly on time you probably would run out of clients very quickly.
You need to be in the hole for something like $50,000 before it's worth the money involved in suing someone. So most of the time people cut deals and work something out.
Let's suppose you're underwater on your mortgage.
It's hell on your credit rating, but if it's not your DREAM HOUSE you'd be stupid to stick with the loan.
Let's suppose you bid on a construction project, but a machine somewhere broke and you can't afford to replace it. Finishing the bid will make you go bankrupt; it's more rational to break the contract.
You break a license? Yeah, I'm probably not going to go to court with you.
"break your contract"? Arbitrary contract? Unless we're talking trivial sized businesses here, there is a non-trivial chance that I will take you to court over that.
Oh yeah, and it is my impression that going to the BBB is free, so you can be sure I'll be doing that regardless.
"break your contract"? Arbitrary contract? Unless we're talking trivial sized businesses here, there is a non-trivial chance that I will take you to court over that.
Oh yeah, and it is my impression that going to the BBB is free, so you can be sure I'll be doing that regardless.
You're probably not going to sue someone for under $30,000 and yet I wouldn't call that a trivial size of business.
30000 is some minor construction work. Yeah, I would call that fairly trivial.
There are a lot of BS contracts out there, you know. People often don’t even read what they sign. That’s why whenever there’s a contact violation you need an entire legal procedure to work out a) whether it happened b) whether the contract was legal in the first place c) whether the judge actually cares and will just overrule it because they want to create a better society—not enough of this BTW.
Then there’s the fact that this promise Allan made probably wasn’t even properly contractually codified.
Then there’s the fact that this promise Allan made probably wasn’t even properly contractually codified.
That's gonna hurt the credit score.
Bro, c'mon now. I hate using this argument, but if you promise your users a free upgrade and you break that promise. WHO THE FUCK WILL EVER TRUST YOU AGAIN? That's a lame excuse! Don't promise something that you can't keep. That just reflect badly on the company/developer. This is not about the money. It's about the integrity of a company.
Shit happens, man. I can't predict the future, can you? Sometimes you fuck up. If you own up to your mistakes, and they were reasonable mistakes, why shouldn't you be forgiven?
Part of actually owning up to your mistakes is accepting the consequences gracefully.
He shouldn't have made the promise in the first place, but now that he has the only responsible thing to do is to fulfill that. He can say it was a bad idea, and ask for donations if he wants, but he shouldn't go back on his word. His fuckup, he's the one that has to deal with the consequences.
He shouldn't have made the promise in the first place, but now that he has the only responsible thing to do is to fulfill that. He can say it was a bad idea, and ask for donations if he wants, but he shouldn't go back on his word. His fuckup, he's the one that has to deal with the consequences.
>Part of actually owning up to your mistakes is accepting the consequences gracefully.
The consequence is going bankrupt or not going bankrupt.
>His fuckup, he's the one that has to deal with the consequences.
I honestly don't understand how this gets people so riled up. Sure, you have the right to your own opinion.
I'd get it if it cost $600. If you're a professional developer in North America though, $60 is a damn pittance.
The consequence is going bankrupt or not going bankrupt.
>His fuckup, he's the one that has to deal with the consequences.
I honestly don't understand how this gets people so riled up. Sure, you have the right to your own opinion.
I'd get it if it cost $600. If you're a professional developer in North America though, $60 is a damn pittance.
How can you not understand that $60 is huge money to some people? It doesn't matter the price, it's expensive to someone. He made a promise about what that $60 buys you (namely, TM1 and TM2), so he better deliver.
You are confused, the price has nothing to do with it. (although it is of course absurd for a text editor).
It has nothing to do with being a 'cheapskate'.
It also has nothing to do with the amount.
Next to the 'buy' button in 2005 there was text along the lines of "upgrades are free all the way to 2.0". Changing that now, added to the fact that we were all expecting much needed updates in 2008, is just a dick move. It (further) damages any confidence the community had in TextMate.
The fact that I would gladly pay $200 for my dream editor (even though I've already paid for TM1 and ST2, I'm lucky that this would be a practical purchase for me) is just not relevant. As you say, he is running a business. A business that made a promise about what buying the product would get you. End of story.
If I buy a car that has a big sign: "FREE WINTER TIRES", and 6 years later I'm still not seeing those friggen tires, does the fact that I can afford to just buy them make the dealership any less shady?
It also has nothing to do with the amount.
Next to the 'buy' button in 2005 there was text along the lines of "upgrades are free all the way to 2.0". Changing that now, added to the fact that we were all expecting much needed updates in 2008, is just a dick move. It (further) damages any confidence the community had in TextMate.
The fact that I would gladly pay $200 for my dream editor (even though I've already paid for TM1 and ST2, I'm lucky that this would be a practical purchase for me) is just not relevant. As you say, he is running a business. A business that made a promise about what buying the product would get you. End of story.
If I buy a car that has a big sign: "FREE WINTER TIRES", and 6 years later I'm still not seeing those friggen tires, does the fact that I can afford to just buy them make the dealership any less shady?
You're assuming it even ships at all. We've seen this story before with Alan.
IF Textmate ships (don't hold you breath), and IF it has compelling enough new (and fixed) features that are above and beyond the various (free) plugins and other text editors on Mac (including BBedit, Coda and Sublime 2) then I'll gladly pay.
IF Textmate ships (don't hold you breath), and IF it has compelling enough new (and fixed) features that are above and beyond the various (free) plugins and other text editors on Mac (including BBedit, Coda and Sublime 2) then I'll gladly pay.
Xcode is my "main development tool." And it was free.
You vastly overestimate what someone has to spend to be using a Mac.
Around 2 years ago, I bought a used, slightly beat-up, but perfectly functional MacBook for about US$400. I bought it as a backup, but it'd make a perfectly serviceable primary machine, too.
There are currently some closer to $350 on ebay under "buy it now", and you might be able to get lucky and pick one up even cheaper with normal bidding. There are also Intel iMacs up for under $350.
Around 2 years ago, I bought a used, slightly beat-up, but perfectly functional MacBook for about US$400. I bought it as a backup, but it'd make a perfectly serviceable primary machine, too.
There are currently some closer to $350 on ebay under "buy it now", and you might be able to get lucky and pick one up even cheaper with normal bidding. There are also Intel iMacs up for under $350.
We're talking about people who already ponied up $60. From that alone, you can't infer (a) that another $60 is a pittance to them, (b) that they own a MacBook or any computer at all, (c) that they are professional developers, or (d) that they are capable of using vim. If you think that any of those is a given, you're spending too much time on HN.
And how the concept of "charity" is relevant to paying customers of a product, I do not understand.
And how the concept of "charity" is relevant to paying customers of a product, I do not understand.
If someone already paid for TextMate, I think it's fair to assume that they own an Apple computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_caf%C3%A9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSx86
I'm not trying to be pedantic here. Both of the above are commonplace in China, for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSx86
I'm not trying to be pedantic here. Both of the above are commonplace in China, for example.
Your point being Textmate has a large customer base whose primary platform is Internet café Hackintoshes... in China?
And, really, how many of those people do you think paid for a copy of TextMate?
buying textmate license to use it at a internet cafe --- HELL NOOO
I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a reply.
The concept of charity is entirely relevant here. This is a business, we're not here to give money away when we don't have to. Geez, keep your opinions to yourself, if you feel you should pay for it, then go pay for it, and donate even more if you feel it's worth it. I don't care if it's $1, $20 or $100. It's the PRINCIPLE. He's in a BUSINESS. This ain't no feel-good charity here.
This ain't no feel-good charity here.
If you're taking the hardline "business is business" angle, then he should be held to his earlier promise as a business.
If you're taking the hardline "business is business" angle, then he should be held to his earlier promise as a business.
For me it has zero to do with me wanting or not wanting to pay for TM2. I was simply put off by Marco's presumption to speak on behalf of everyone, "We will not hold you to it... Please let us give you more money."
Had the post been just his own offer of support and words of encouragement it would have been quite nice, but instead it ended up being a bit irritating to me.
Had the post been just his own offer of support and words of encouragement it would have been quite nice, but instead it ended up being a bit irritating to me.
He'd know it's not worth finishing before he made it to 2.0. People effectively knew they are paying for both versions, so what's the problem really? $60 is not free - some would spend it, some wouldn't.
Why do you think you know better what other people want or don't want to do?
Why do you think you know better what other people want or don't want to do?
I understand where people who write comments like this are coming from, but I think if you take a step back and think about what Marco is saying, then as a response to Marco this argument is irrational.
The fact is that Odgaard has many more lucrative options open to him than living up to an unfavorable pricing commitment from 6 years ago.
Meanwhile, your own interests are poorly served by telling him to shove it and watch you switch to Sublime Text. At least if Odgaard can be happy building TM2, you have a choice. But sticking to your sense of entitlement actually wins you nothing.
Building commercial products that serve programmers is a risky and painful proposition for the same reason that there isn't a lucrative business to be build selling ice to Inuits. Consider carefully that Odgaard is in no way captive to your judgment. If he himself was more rational, he'd drop TM2 today and start building iPhone apps for many times more money than anyone is ever going to pay him for a text editor.
The fact is that Odgaard has many more lucrative options open to him than living up to an unfavorable pricing commitment from 6 years ago.
Meanwhile, your own interests are poorly served by telling him to shove it and watch you switch to Sublime Text. At least if Odgaard can be happy building TM2, you have a choice. But sticking to your sense of entitlement actually wins you nothing.
Building commercial products that serve programmers is a risky and painful proposition for the same reason that there isn't a lucrative business to be build selling ice to Inuits. Consider carefully that Odgaard is in no way captive to your judgment. If he himself was more rational, he'd drop TM2 today and start building iPhone apps for many times more money than anyone is ever going to pay him for a text editor.
It's difficult to tell whether you're trolling or if you seriously don't realize where exactly you're arguing from.
It's absolutely mundane to have more desirable options than honoring prior commitments. This is true in business, in friendship and even in love. If this weren't the case what would the rational be for people to make commitments and hold each other to them? Surely you can see that there are ideals beyond being "more rational" and breaking one's word at any point it becomes inconvenient?
It's absolutely mundane to have more desirable options than honoring prior commitments. This is true in business, in friendship and even in love. If this weren't the case what would the rational be for people to make commitments and hold each other to them? Surely you can see that there are ideals beyond being "more rational" and breaking one's word at any point it becomes inconvenient?
I think you think I'm saying something I'm not. I'm not saying Odgaard can ignore his promise and sell TM2 without honoring his upgrade commitment; just that he has the option of not selling TM2 at all.
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Consider how many hours of productivity where wasted watching TextMate block the UI thread all the time. I've probably wasted hours in the project-wide search alone. The lost time vastly exceeds $60.
Install the Ackmate plugin and banish the beachball forever.
I installed Sublime Text 2 and achieved the same outcome. Additionally I get more than 2 software updates per year.
Heh fair. To be honest, though, I don't see what all the fuss/anger about TextMate not being updated often enough is about - it works really well as it is, what updates does it need?
it has nothing to do with the price.
it could be $1.
It's about keeping your word. It's about morality.
Heck people can still donate, a lot more than that too.
And if keeping your word is going to kill, don't write stuff like "ohlala im so poor damn what im gonna do! damn if only people would agree to pay!" and hope that it works.
You man up and you apologize properly, saying it ain't going to be free and that wasn't planned, but it has to be.
Going through the foggy FUD before announcing that (if ever announced of course) would be pretty low on my scale.
Time to use your mod down points :-)
And if keeping your word is going to kill, don't write stuff like "ohlala im so poor damn what im gonna do! damn if only people would agree to pay!" and hope that it works.
You man up and you apologize properly, saying it ain't going to be free and that wasn't planned, but it has to be.
Going through the foggy FUD before announcing that (if ever announced of course) would be pretty low on my scale.
Time to use your mod down points :-)
>You man up and you apologize properly, saying it ain't going to be free and that wasn't planned, but it has to be.
Oh I agree. But this would be very easy to do tactfully, and so I consider it semi trivial. All you have to do is be humble, and apologize profusely and talk about the soul-consuming labour of love the project has been over the past few years and I think most people would forgive him.
Oh I agree. But this would be very easy to do tactfully, and so I consider it semi trivial. All you have to do is be humble, and apologize profusely and talk about the soul-consuming labour of love the project has been over the past few years and I think most people would forgive him.
Yes but as GP points out that promise is a part of the reason why there will ever be a 2.0 in the first place. People over paid for V1 because they were buying a v1-v2 package. People who would have passed on V1 were willing to buy it because of the promise of polished V2 for no cost. Without the promise he wouldn't have done nearly so well and perhaps would have folded before V2 became a reality.
If anything V2 should have been reduced in scope and shipped sooner because of the promise, not drawn out so that you kill revenue giving free upgrades.
If anything V2 should have been reduced in scope and shipped sooner because of the promise, not drawn out so that you kill revenue giving free upgrades.
> But for people who thought that $60 is a fair price for 1.x (I myself belong to this group, and so seem Marco), it's just a promise of a generous gift that was taken away.
But kind of a bummer for people who considered the $60 as $30 for 1.x, $30 for 2.x.
But kind of a bummer for people who considered the $60 as $30 for 1.x, $30 for 2.x.
I'd rather pay $60 to have it, than pay nothing and it not get done.
This logic fails if it's not a universal agreement. When it's not, you're just paying money for an expectation that may never materialise.
One might call it gambling.
One might call it gambling.
Or supporting a worthy cause.
This doesn't even rate on my list of worthy causes. The developer of TextMate got paid when I bought a license for that software. He runs/owns a business running for profit and he has the means and expertise to make that. And indeed he will if he gets a second version out.
There are countless NPOs and registered charities that require donations and spend the money on running wholly unprofitable services to people who have no way of paying the organisation back. Services that, as a result, would not exist (and be actively avoided if they did) if left to the free market.
They deserve whatever money you're willing to throw away a hell of a lot more than a developer who has trouble keeping his shit in order.
There are countless NPOs and registered charities that require donations and spend the money on running wholly unprofitable services to people who have no way of paying the organisation back. Services that, as a result, would not exist (and be actively avoided if they did) if left to the free market.
They deserve whatever money you're willing to throw away a hell of a lot more than a developer who has trouble keeping his shit in order.
The simplest distillation of what Marco is saying may be:
Allan Odgaard built a great product but made a calamitous mistake in pricing it relative to the effort he ended up putting into it.
Marco has been auditioning text editors for several months now, and has come to the conclusion that he is happiest with Textmate.
Marco would strongly prefer to help Odgaard fix his pricing mistake over the option of having to switch to a different editor because Odgaard burns out on Textmate completely.
Allan Odgaard built a great product but made a calamitous mistake in pricing it relative to the effort he ended up putting into it.
Marco has been auditioning text editors for several months now, and has come to the conclusion that he is happiest with Textmate.
Marco would strongly prefer to help Odgaard fix his pricing mistake over the option of having to switch to a different editor because Odgaard burns out on Textmate completely.
Does Allan have a pricing mistake for Marco to fix? I haven't heard anywhere that it is a real impediment to TM2. Even in the list message from Allan, he mentions that maybe it was a mistake, but money wasn't his primary motivation.
If Allan is smart he'll look at the Sophiestication blow up regarding CoverSutra 2.5 being a paid upgrade. I think that would be about the worst thing that could happen to his motivation to work on TextMate. Marco should buy another license if he wants, and I, and many other developers will most likely follow suite of our own free will.
I just can't trust Marco's analysis when it feels like he doesn't seem to give any consideration to the fallout. In the last Build and Analyze he also didn't know Allan's employment situation, and many other things that don't seem to vibe with what I know of the situation as someone who has used TextMate since it was first released. Granted I know he was being a bit flippant at this point, but he brought up how there are holidays before Christmas that could further delay things, but since Thanksgiving is firmly a US holiday and Allan is a Dane living in Denmark, it's fairly safe to say that Nov. 24 and that entire week are just going to be another week for Allan.
If Allan is smart he'll look at the Sophiestication blow up regarding CoverSutra 2.5 being a paid upgrade. I think that would be about the worst thing that could happen to his motivation to work on TextMate. Marco should buy another license if he wants, and I, and many other developers will most likely follow suite of our own free will.
I just can't trust Marco's analysis when it feels like he doesn't seem to give any consideration to the fallout. In the last Build and Analyze he also didn't know Allan's employment situation, and many other things that don't seem to vibe with what I know of the situation as someone who has used TextMate since it was first released. Granted I know he was being a bit flippant at this point, but he brought up how there are holidays before Christmas that could further delay things, but since Thanksgiving is firmly a US holiday and Allan is a Dane living in Denmark, it's fairly safe to say that Nov. 24 and that entire week are just going to be another week for Allan.
He could simply be honest that he's expending a lot more effort on v2 to make it as awesome as he wants it to be. Charge the full price, but offer a refund or full price rebate if you show that you bought v1.
>What am I missing here?
vimtutor or Emacs info-pages so you're no longer dependent on commercial entities for the cornerstone of your tools.
vimtutor or Emacs info-pages so you're no longer dependent on commercial entities for the cornerstone of your tools.
It's like taxes... you can always pay more if you want to!
It's quite simple. On the one hand, hold him to his promise (because after all a man's word is his bond) and get no TM2. On the other hand, allow him to renig on his promise (sacrificing your ideals of what is right, just and fair, and another $60) and get TM2.
To some people- not all people- having TM2 is more valuable than sticking to their idealogical guns.
To some people- not all people- having TM2 is more valuable than sticking to their idealogical guns.
You answered your own question - "Let's ignore entirely whether that's a contract violation and just focus on whether it's fair."
Contrast the TextMate situation to that of Sublime Text. Jon Skinner has done an amazing job of shipping something compelling early, updating it often, developing out in the open and giving his customers a good reason to buy the product even though it's still in beta.
Allan Odgaard has made promises as to the quality and ship date of his product, and that's about it (to be fair, there have been 1.x updates). At this point the promise of a free upgrade combined with the boatloads of cash TM1 made are almost certainly what put future product development on perpetual hold. Far from just avoiding that promise, he should have avoided talking about future versions at all.
For me the choice is pretty clear. I finally deleted TM from ~/Applications a few weeks ago and haven't really looked back. Sublime Text 2 isn't perfect, but it is already very close to being everything I need for my day to day development and general editing tasks. Even though it isn't stable, I use it nearly every day, and it just keeps getting better.
Allan Odgaard has made promises as to the quality and ship date of his product, and that's about it (to be fair, there have been 1.x updates). At this point the promise of a free upgrade combined with the boatloads of cash TM1 made are almost certainly what put future product development on perpetual hold. Far from just avoiding that promise, he should have avoided talking about future versions at all.
For me the choice is pretty clear. I finally deleted TM from ~/Applications a few weeks ago and haven't really looked back. Sublime Text 2 isn't perfect, but it is already very close to being everything I need for my day to day development and general editing tasks. Even though it isn't stable, I use it nearly every day, and it just keeps getting better.
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Thanks for the ref to Sublime - it runs on Windows. I have a TM license on my mac mini (hooked up via kvm), but since my wifes machine died I migrated her to the mac, so I don't really use the thing anymore (TextMate too), and I have to admit, it is a nice editor and I wish it was available for Windows. I'll definitely check out Sublime today though.
so I just downloaded it at work and had a quick look - immediate impression is "wow", it's really really nice, I need to put some mileage into it. I have some faith that the first impression was the right one
Same here, a few months ago I gave up on Textmate2 ever coming and switched to Sublime2 and I love it, the every month upgrade cycle is perfect amount of time between releases.
Agreed. I bought a license for Sublime Text 2 about a month ago after I felt I'd taken advantage of the evaluation enough.
Almost nightly updates, more doing than saying, a nice little support forum and - the clincher - compatibility with TextMate bundles while being multi-platform (TextMate functionality... on my Linux install!). It's still in beta and has a way to go but it fills the gap TextMate has left, and it gets near-nightly updates.
Don't get me wrong, TextMate was (/still is) great, but if people want to celebrate a developer for announcing what has essentially been vapourware (and may still be), and running a travesty of a blog, they're free to, and they're free to throw their money away.
But if I had a blog of my own I might suggest you save that €30, give Sublime a go, and see if you'd rather put that cash towards a full license for it.
Almost nightly updates, more doing than saying, a nice little support forum and - the clincher - compatibility with TextMate bundles while being multi-platform (TextMate functionality... on my Linux install!). It's still in beta and has a way to go but it fills the gap TextMate has left, and it gets near-nightly updates.
Don't get me wrong, TextMate was (/still is) great, but if people want to celebrate a developer for announcing what has essentially been vapourware (and may still be), and running a travesty of a blog, they're free to, and they're free to throw their money away.
But if I had a blog of my own I might suggest you save that €30, give Sublime a go, and see if you'd rather put that cash towards a full license for it.
TextMate 2 seems to be limping over the finish line while Sublime Text 2 is already getting in to its stride for the next race.
I think Sublime deserves to take the crown, but a little more polish specific to the Mac version (behaviours, icon) wouldn't hurt.
I think Sublime deserves to take the crown, but a little more polish specific to the Mac version (behaviours, icon) wouldn't hurt.
I think Mac version gets a ton of attention :)
"Given the value that we get out of TextMate, it’s already grossly underpriced. Please let us give you more money"
The value for you isn't probably the same for all the customers.
Some people make millions from the work of the Apache Foundation for example but others use their web server to run little websites. Some would probably pay tons of money for it, others won't.
I am not saying that a upgrade fee for TextMate 2 will not be fair, but that is solely at the author's discretion.
The value for you isn't probably the same for all the customers.
Some people make millions from the work of the Apache Foundation for example but others use their web server to run little websites. Some would probably pay tons of money for it, others won't.
I am not saying that a upgrade fee for TextMate 2 will not be fair, but that is solely at the author's discretion.
"The value for you isn't probably the same for all the customers"
Definitely right on. If this person is so set on paying for this product the creators of TM should just have a donate option. Then he can pay all he wants.
TextMate 2 is the perfect, yet heartbreaking example of Brook's Second-system effect. It's painful seeing an otherwise successful developer get so completely sucked into it.
Except we haven't even seen TM2 yet. It could be a more svelte, nematodeine, feature-less slice of software. Just because it's taken half an eon for even the beta announcement to come to fruition doesn't mean it's a bloat-ware type scenario. At least I hope it isn't.
Sadly it isn't even a beta announcement.
nematodeine - worm like?
Maybe he should use the "pay what you want" pricing concept for upgrades. Anyone who wants his free upgrade can't complain. But he'll end up getting paid some, too.
This seems like a good idea to me. Just have part of the upgrade process be a text box that says something like: "Please enter how much you would like to pay for the upgrade. As promised, this upgrade is free if you want it to be, but if you think Textmate is worth it, please consider paying an appropriate amount."
That way people who can't afford it or otherwise feel entitled to the free upgrade can get it free, and all the moderately wealthy developers who use Textmate every day and can afford it can be guilted into supporting development.
That way people who can't afford it or otherwise feel entitled to the free upgrade can get it free, and all the moderately wealthy developers who use Textmate every day and can afford it can be guilted into supporting development.
The assumption here is that TM2 is better than TM1. Lets see if that holds.
+1.
Please add your +1 by hitting the up arrow next to the comment.
Now that we don't see comment scores, that isn't effective for publicly voicing agreement.
Votes do influence the ranking. And is "publicly voicing agreement" really more important than a usable comment page?
Put the two together and its a decent argument for bring back displaying up votes on comments.
Influence isn't the same as that is for an entire conversation thread. What if an initial comment gets very few up votes but a response to it gets tons? they aren't ranked independently of one another.
Influence isn't the same as that is for an entire conversation thread. What if an initial comment gets very few up votes but a response to it gets tons? they aren't ranked independently of one another.
Why not? I don't learn anything from seeing the username of whoever posted "+1".
I also upvoted it. I was EXTRA agreeing with it.
Simple solution: Optional payment. Keep the promise of a free upgrade, but add the option to pay anyways if someone really likes it (if the current TextMate is any indication, many will).
I wish all software was sold like this: You get the full version for free, no restrictions, no nagging (perhaps a reminder once a month). If you really like it, you get the option to (easily, avoiding PayPal) pay for it. Heck, you might even let people choose the price.
Of course this would work only for software that makes people think: "Hey, someone really spent a lot of effort into making just the right tool for the job". Microsoft Office might not benefit from this method of "voting with your money" - but then that would probably be a good thing too.
I wish all software was sold like this: You get the full version for free, no restrictions, no nagging (perhaps a reminder once a month). If you really like it, you get the option to (easily, avoiding PayPal) pay for it. Heck, you might even let people choose the price.
Of course this would work only for software that makes people think: "Hey, someone really spent a lot of effort into making just the right tool for the job". Microsoft Office might not benefit from this method of "voting with your money" - but then that would probably be a good thing too.
A simple solution to this problem - for existing users, allow them to choose their own price for the upgrade. Some people feel like they deserve a free version (maybe they just bought Textmate recently), while others have been using it for years and feel like Allen deserves to be paid for version 2.
I just bought it because I expected the free upgrade, and was patiently waiting. I don't plan on paying for it again.
Not be a jerk, but if you didn't plan on using Textmate in the mean time, why didn't you wait for 2.0 to come out before buying it?
It's a known problem to preannounce next generation products. Once you announce that the next generation is coming out soon, the value of the current version is discounted in people's minds. Hm, should I buy the 2011 model now, or wait a couple months for the 2012 model. The problem is when, unlike car models, the 2012 model doesn't come out when one expected and is indefinitely delayed. This can put a company in a position where sales dramatically slow down because people are waiting for the imminent next release, but the release is not forthcoming. More than one company has gone under in this conundrum. The solution to extricate oneself from the mess is to announce that the next version is free for all purchasers of the current one. Then people waiting for the next version will say hey why not I will get the current one while I am waiting rather than wait. These people only purchased because they were assured they were really buying the next version, and the current one was to tide them over. It is similar to when you buy a car and it is delayed so the dealer gives you a loaner car until it arrives. Customers would be quite disappointed, having bought a car and lent a loaner, to find that the dealer felt the loaner was good enough for them and if they want the car they bought they should pay a second time.
I bought TM1 in 2010 knowing full well that people have been waiting for TM2 for half a decade, because the presumption for late adopters like me (and possibly the parent) is that we bought TM1 to help fund the development of TM2--if revenue is really the problem for the delay of TM2.
I bought Sublime Text 2 while it was still a semi-working beta because I saw the potential and wanted to support the developer.
I bought Sublime Text 2 while it was still a semi-working beta because I saw the potential and wanted to support the developer.
Perhaps because he wanted to support the developer now, and it made little difference to him as it was as good as buying TM2 later... not to mention the price was locked in at the price you're paying now.
Don't get me wrong...I'm using it, and I like it. I just don't feel I should have to buy the same product twice.
It's not the same product. It just has the same name.
I'm not saying your deal with Odgaard shouldn't bind.
I'm just saying, if Odgaard from the beginning had said "Textmate 2 will cost $60 and there will be no paid upgrades", that too would be a perfectly fair pricing strategy.
What Marco is hung up on is how underpriced Textmate is relative to the value it provides (unfortunately, it's a text editor for programmers; the price points it competes with create dynamics similar to those of trying to sell ice to Inuits).
I preemptively agree with you that Marco's observation about Textmate's pricing shouldn't bind on you.
I'm not saying your deal with Odgaard shouldn't bind.
I'm just saying, if Odgaard from the beginning had said "Textmate 2 will cost $60 and there will be no paid upgrades", that too would be a perfectly fair pricing strategy.
What Marco is hung up on is how underpriced Textmate is relative to the value it provides (unfortunately, it's a text editor for programmers; the price points it competes with create dynamics similar to those of trying to sell ice to Inuits).
I preemptively agree with you that Marco's observation about Textmate's pricing shouldn't bind on you.
While we wait for TM2, you can supercharge/augment TextMate 1's full-project search capabilities with ackmate. It's an indispensible tool for me:
https://github.com/protocool/ackmate
https://github.com/protocool/ackmate
I installed this yesterday, and it's fantastic.
I absolutely agree. TextMate is still my favorite editor. I switched to it from vim in 2007 and have occasionally looked back and around at other editors, but always return to TM.
Everyone on my team also uses TextMate all day, every day. We'd be happy to pay for TextMate 2.
Everyone on my team also uses TextMate all day, every day. We'd be happy to pay for TextMate 2.
As someone who's actually making an analogous opposite switch (learning vim rather than using Sublime), I'd love to hear your reasons for preferring Textmate over vim (I haven't used Textmate myself).
I think the biggest argument towards vim/emacs instead of TextMate or any number of other editors is that you want a tool you can always count on.
I have been using emacs for over 15 years now. Over the course of that time I've fucked around and built my own elisp libraries here and there, but by and large I'm a pretty generic user.
But I can move around files and edit text like a madman.
Over those 15 years I've used emacs on Solaris, Windows, Mac, Linux and various other Unixes.
Over those 15 years I've used emacs to edit HTML, CSS, C/C++, Perl, PHP, Java, Ruby, Python and god knows what else.
The reason I stick to emacs is that it is a tool I know I will ALWAYS have. No matter what platform, no matter what language, I know I'll be productive in it.
We are craftsmen, pick a tool you know you can hone and use for your entire lifetime and career. A closed source text editor that only runs on one platform is definitely not that tool.
I have been using emacs for over 15 years now. Over the course of that time I've fucked around and built my own elisp libraries here and there, but by and large I'm a pretty generic user.
But I can move around files and edit text like a madman.
Over those 15 years I've used emacs on Solaris, Windows, Mac, Linux and various other Unixes.
Over those 15 years I've used emacs to edit HTML, CSS, C/C++, Perl, PHP, Java, Ruby, Python and god knows what else.
The reason I stick to emacs is that it is a tool I know I will ALWAYS have. No matter what platform, no matter what language, I know I'll be productive in it.
We are craftsmen, pick a tool you know you can hone and use for your entire lifetime and career. A closed source text editor that only runs on one platform is definitely not that tool.
My switch last year was exactly opposite, and I too am curious about this thinking.
The TM2 delay made me realize that I simply can't put my editor eggs in a proprietary basket. The way I see it, mastery of Vim will serve me with a solid baseline for the next 30-40 years of a polyglot programming career. While editors like TextMate and IDEs can create better user experiences in particular languages, nothing smokes arbitrary text manipulation like Vim.
The TM2 delay made me realize that I simply can't put my editor eggs in a proprietary basket. The way I see it, mastery of Vim will serve me with a solid baseline for the next 30-40 years of a polyglot programming career. While editors like TextMate and IDEs can create better user experiences in particular languages, nothing smokes arbitrary text manipulation like Vim.
For me, it's the ease of use, the HTML bundle's shortcuts for quickly slicing through markup, the automatic recognition of languages embedded within languages (JavaScript bundle and syntax highlighting automatically activated when the cursor is in JS code inside HTML). The easy macro recording doesn't hurt either.
AckMate solved the only real issue I had with TextMate, so I'm a pretty happy coder with it now.
AckMate solved the only real issue I had with TextMate, so I'm a pretty happy coder with it now.
yeah, textmate's nested language support is one of the top two features i really wish vim could steal from other editors (the other is lisp scripting from emacs)
Giving TM2 as a free upgrade probably does make a lot of sense to the developers. Textmate is hugely popular, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets more than enough to finance what he wants to do off of its sales. And by making it free he makes sure that no one has a reason to use TM1 anymore, keeping his userbase unified and easier to handle.
It's also worth mentioning that licences from one discount bundle (MacHeist) will require an upgrade fee, a smart distinction to make.
Buttt, this is a case where he is severely undervaluing his software, which isn't helping in a market where software is already too cheap. The developers are doing less harm to themselves then they are the Mac software community.
It's also worth mentioning that licences from one discount bundle (MacHeist) will require an upgrade fee, a smart distinction to make.
Buttt, this is a case where he is severely undervaluing his software, which isn't helping in a market where software is already too cheap. The developers are doing less harm to themselves then they are the Mac software community.
I have tried using a lot of other text editors over the past year or so—trying to find a viable replacement for TextMate. Each time someone in HN mentions Sublime or MacVim or new hotness text editor X, I give it a shot, use it for a couple of days to see if it sticks. I even tried going back to BBEdit—the editor I used for years and years before TextMate. To me, nothing compares. I'm not sure exactly what it is about it, but it just feels right to me. I even use only maybe 2% of what it's capable of. Still, there's something 'correct' about it.
In fact, I often think to myself, "Self, if TextMate 2 never came to be and you 'had' to use your current dusty version for the rest of your life, you'd be a.o.k. fine and dandy. Maybe by the time you stopped using a computer (and therefore TextMate 1.x), you'd have learned to type a little faster and maybe learned to use another 2% of the available features. Maybe, if TextMate 2 came out, you'd still prefer what you're using now." I totally agree with myself, then move along—happily coding away for yet another day in TextMate current.
So, when TextMate 2 comes out, I'll download it and give it a shot—just like all the others. If it sticks, and helps me enjoy my work a little bit more, then, just like everything else that does, I'll purchase it so I can keep using it.
The makers of TextMate will decide to do whatever they think is best for them regarding the price & past promises of free software, but I'm with the Marco.org fella in seeing (and paying money in exchange for) value in well crafted tools.
In fact, I often think to myself, "Self, if TextMate 2 never came to be and you 'had' to use your current dusty version for the rest of your life, you'd be a.o.k. fine and dandy. Maybe by the time you stopped using a computer (and therefore TextMate 1.x), you'd have learned to type a little faster and maybe learned to use another 2% of the available features. Maybe, if TextMate 2 came out, you'd still prefer what you're using now." I totally agree with myself, then move along—happily coding away for yet another day in TextMate current.
So, when TextMate 2 comes out, I'll download it and give it a shot—just like all the others. If it sticks, and helps me enjoy my work a little bit more, then, just like everything else that does, I'll purchase it so I can keep using it.
The makers of TextMate will decide to do whatever they think is best for them regarding the price & past promises of free software, but I'm with the Marco.org fella in seeing (and paying money in exchange for) value in well crafted tools.
I am pretty much a die hard BBEdit user for the past 15 years, but I purchased a copy TextMate years ago. I think it would create a lot of bad will if 2.0 was a forced paid upgraded.
I think TM2 should be free for TM1 buyers via macromates.com, but cost full price via the Apple App Store.
I think TM2 should be free for TM1 buyers via macromates.com, but cost full price via the Apple App Store.
I've been trying to find some rationality in all this. I think it's crystal clear. The REASON Marco has been using version 1.x since 2006 is because there IS no version 2.0.
It's NOT any of our faults that the upgrade wasn't there 6 months later. That was the developer's fault. If it had come out 6 months to a year later, the revenue generated by 1.x would have most likely covered his "salary". But that money was obviously spent somewhere else... at his discretion. Now we have people saying, "it's ok, we'll pay again." Sure, I used the software since 2005, but only because for most of that time, there was NOTHING better. In no way is that my fault.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to Textmate, its developer or anyone else. As a developer, I understand that rightfully, family, obligations, and more lucrative projects can get in the way of one's pet projects.
It's NOT any of our faults that the upgrade wasn't there 6 months later. That was the developer's fault. If it had come out 6 months to a year later, the revenue generated by 1.x would have most likely covered his "salary". But that money was obviously spent somewhere else... at his discretion. Now we have people saying, "it's ok, we'll pay again." Sure, I used the software since 2005, but only because for most of that time, there was NOTHING better. In no way is that my fault.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to Textmate, its developer or anyone else. As a developer, I understand that rightfully, family, obligations, and more lucrative projects can get in the way of one's pet projects.
I switched back to Emacs from TextMate. Never looked back.
Speak for yourself. The only reason TM2 is a free upgrade, or even coming out at all is that Sublime Text 2 is eating up the cash cow that was TM1 and soon TM user base will go away unless he does something about it.
This is somewhat OT but I've used EditPlus under Windows for almost eight years and have paid $35 twice -- v2 and v3. Same with FileZilla.
When it's worth it, it's worth it. a lot of people feel the same way about TextMate.
When it's worth it, it's worth it. a lot of people feel the same way about TextMate.
Hmmm, that's odd because I bought EditPlus 2.3x for 30$, the price was increased in 3.x. Also v3 was free for all paid customers of 2.x. When did you buy 2.x?
Also OT, but, as a PC guy who LOVES EditPlus, is Textmate similar in features?
I'm sure the author of the posting could simply donate to the dev via paypal. It's similar to those "rich" people who are demanding to pay higher taxes. That's a nonsense argument because they can donate to the US Treasury just as a dev could donate to the TextMate guy. I am tired of people suggesting to other people how to spend everyone else's money. If you want to pay more -- do it yourself.
For the rest of us, I'll pay what I'm required and donate if I feel so inclined. I'd personally rather donate to the Tiny Wings guy simply because paying $60 for a text editor is fairly steep, if you aren't getting the version 2 update for free. And Tiny Wings has better music. Logic Studio is only $299, compared to a text editor's $60 and Xcode is free. The amount of coding that went into Logic is light years beyond TextMate, but Apple knows that if they charged $1000 for it (a fair price based on feature set, they'd lose more revenue than charging $299.) I'm not a business school guy, but I do know a thing or two about demand elasticity. Try charging $4.99 for an app in the App Store and charge $1.99 -- you'll make more money at $1.99, unless it's some highly niche product; TextMate is far from highly niche. It's ubiquitous.
I have paid for TextMate and have no problems doing so, but I'll be damned if some jackass suggests that we should pay more. That's a business decision to be made by the TextMate dev, not some user who likely has very little experience in selling software to the public. No offense to anyone, but based on the posting, it appears that the author has little understanding of demand curves, not to mention contractual agreements.
For the rest of us, I'll pay what I'm required and donate if I feel so inclined. I'd personally rather donate to the Tiny Wings guy simply because paying $60 for a text editor is fairly steep, if you aren't getting the version 2 update for free. And Tiny Wings has better music. Logic Studio is only $299, compared to a text editor's $60 and Xcode is free. The amount of coding that went into Logic is light years beyond TextMate, but Apple knows that if they charged $1000 for it (a fair price based on feature set, they'd lose more revenue than charging $299.) I'm not a business school guy, but I do know a thing or two about demand elasticity. Try charging $4.99 for an app in the App Store and charge $1.99 -- you'll make more money at $1.99, unless it's some highly niche product; TextMate is far from highly niche. It's ubiquitous.
I have paid for TextMate and have no problems doing so, but I'll be damned if some jackass suggests that we should pay more. That's a business decision to be made by the TextMate dev, not some user who likely has very little experience in selling software to the public. No offense to anyone, but based on the posting, it appears that the author has little understanding of demand curves, not to mention contractual agreements.
He should start a donation fund to pay for the development of TextMate2.
I'd happily throw a few hundred $$$ into that. I own TextMate 1, so I get the update for free.
Problem for him is, he'd open himself up to litigation if he tried to charge for TextMate 2. However I'm also of the opinion that the lack of release is due to the lack of cash. If he could see money rolling in via "donations" maybe he'd be more capable of paying his bills and continuing to develop his great editor.
Problem for him is, he'd open himself up to litigation if he tried to charge for TextMate 2. However I'm also of the opinion that the lack of release is due to the lack of cash. If he could see money rolling in via "donations" maybe he'd be more capable of paying his bills and continuing to develop his great editor.
I can see both sides of the coin. I understand that a lot of people may have bought TextMate because they were told the update to 2.0 would be free (otherwise they may have waited). However, with as big as TextMate is and how a guy with little or no team was able to create it, he can't possibly afford to offer it to free for the thousands of people who bought the original one.
I think it would be perfectly fair to offer a discounted price to those who bought TextMate 1.0 (as opposed to free). That's a pretty fair thing to do IMHO. Many others said it, but if you are shelling out all the big bucks to buy a Mac, spending a few more bucks on an outstanding piece of software. It is a good way to show your support to the developer and make him continue sending out updates.
Just imagine the scenario where he does offer it for free, makes virtually no profit, and then ends up quitting support for TextMate 2 (as in making bug fixes, features, etc) because he can't afford to just live off of doing that. We all lose in that scenario.
I'm a student with lots of debt, but I will buy TextMate 2 full price because it's a good investment. Even if he does offer it for free, it would be a great gesture to buy it anyway or at least open up a donation thing for him.
Can't wait for its release!
I think it would be perfectly fair to offer a discounted price to those who bought TextMate 1.0 (as opposed to free). That's a pretty fair thing to do IMHO. Many others said it, but if you are shelling out all the big bucks to buy a Mac, spending a few more bucks on an outstanding piece of software. It is a good way to show your support to the developer and make him continue sending out updates.
Just imagine the scenario where he does offer it for free, makes virtually no profit, and then ends up quitting support for TextMate 2 (as in making bug fixes, features, etc) because he can't afford to just live off of doing that. We all lose in that scenario.
I'm a student with lots of debt, but I will buy TextMate 2 full price because it's a good investment. Even if he does offer it for free, it would be a great gesture to buy it anyway or at least open up a donation thing for him.
Can't wait for its release!
I'll solve both issues: TextMate Gold. It's a special version for TextMate 1 licensees that decide to pay the extra upgraded prices (or unlicensed users who pay an extra 39 EUR). No extra features, it just adds a gold titlebar (preferences controllable, of course), and puts your name in gold lettering in the about box. People like Marco can feel better about themselves, and no one who bought TextMate 1.x feels screwed over.
Several commenters here, and on other threads and across the web have complained about no progress since forever ago. And while the core product may not have changed, bundles and plugins have continued to be created/updated, so it's not like things have been completely stagnant all this time.
Sure, there's angst at a lack of communication, but that doesn't mean the TM community has stagnated the entire time.
Sure, there's angst at a lack of communication, but that doesn't mean the TM community has stagnated the entire time.
I think Alan could make money writing a book about the development of TextMate 2.0. I'm curious what happened and what lessons were learned.
The problem is that, from an accounting perspective, money that should've been funding TM2 is considered TM1 revenue. So it looks like he is giving away TM2 for free, even though many, including myself, only bought TM1 for TM2. I think Sublime Text is smart for charging for the ST2 beta in order to avoid this problem.
Macromates should've charged new customers for the TM2 beta while he had a chance years ago. I bought TM1 recently. There was no good reason I should've been paying for TM1 in late 2010. I should've been buying and helping to fund TM2 directly, even if it was an alpha release. I don't know what held up TM2 development, but Sublime Text 2 has shown that people are willing to pay for a broken unfinished product if it has potential. Now he has a whole bunch customers, myself included, to unnecessarily grandfather in.
Macromates should've charged new customers for the TM2 beta while he had a chance years ago. I bought TM1 recently. There was no good reason I should've been paying for TM1 in late 2010. I should've been buying and helping to fund TM2 directly, even if it was an alpha release. I don't know what held up TM2 development, but Sublime Text 2 has shown that people are willing to pay for a broken unfinished product if it has potential. Now he has a whole bunch customers, myself included, to unnecessarily grandfather in.
I had no idea Textmate 2 would be a free upgrade for Textmate 1 users. I would gladly pay for Textmate 2 as well.
"You promised the free update in a different era, probably expecting different circumstances. Things have changed."
True, but not how he means it. Now people expect lifetime free upgrades from smaller software packages. There's no Instapaper 2.0, for instance, and probably never will be.
True, but not how he means it. Now people expect lifetime free upgrades from smaller software packages. There's no Instapaper 2.0, for instance, and probably never will be.
Seriously people just use Sublime Text if you can't figure out Vim (I use both). Author is super responsive, cranks out really awesome features every week, totally someone who is worth throwing money at.
And both of them are cross-platform ie. Linux, Mac, Win, you rule them all.
And both of them are cross-platform ie. Linux, Mac, Win, you rule them all.
What are all the features that everyone wants? Why all the hype?
I gave up on TM2 a long time ago, but that doesn't mean I switched to another editor; I still use TM1 everyday. However, when I purchased TM1, I was promised TM2 for free, and therefore I'll have it for free.
I gave up on TM2 a long time ago, but that doesn't mean I switched to another editor; I still use TM1 everyday. However, when I purchased TM1, I was promised TM2 for free, and therefore I'll have it for free.
There are quite a few things that textmate does not have but should have to be a full featured text editor. off the top of my head the main ones are: split screen, better printing control, better plugin system, ability for a real lexer/parser/tokenizer to be plugged into the plugin system(I guess you could get around this by writing your scripts in ruby and shelling out but that seems slow.) Regex for syntax highlighting your files breaks very easily. I might be way off base and all these are easily fixed with some plugin but I haven't found the solution to them yet.
Major things I wish for are: bulk grouped undo, improved Safari-esque search where all items highlight, non-blocking project search, jump to class/function definition that doesn't stink, improved project layout a la Espresso & Chocolat, auto-updating bundles, setup syncing across computers (this would be killer and new for editors), better jump to file, smarter quotation doubling, improved default HTML/CSS language definitions, and more obvious bracket matching.
If TextMate 2 is great software new customers will buy the software. If TextMate does not come out with a new version, other editors like Sublime Text 2 will deprecate TextMate. If MacroMates wants to sell more licenses of TextMate they will need to be competitive with the other more modern editing software. MacroMates should hold to the existing contract that subsequent versions are free to upgrade to for TextMate 1. If they want to change that with TextMate 2 licences, that is fine. If you want to entice MacroMates to develop TextMate 2 with money write them a check and tell them what the money is for or buy a new license when the new version comes out.
Wanting to pay more is certainly a valid and generous thing to want to do.
However, it is a bit grating that Marco presumes to speak for all customers of this product by using the word "we". I don't presume to speak for Marco, he should speak for himself only.
However, it is a bit grating that Marco presumes to speak for all customers of this product by using the word "we". I don't presume to speak for Marco, he should speak for himself only.
While I totally appreciate the generosity of Macro, I totally condemn Macro's speaking for the entire buyer community as in "We will not hold you to it" & "Please let us give you more money".
For Allan, money sure is good but reputation is still better.
For Allan, money sure is good but reputation is still better.
Vim is still free.
and is still awesome! I tried textmate for a few weeks and went back to macvim
I look forward to the day I can teach my kids to use Vim :)
What I like about the Free software is that if the main author dies or stops working on the project, I can pick up where he left off instead of write blog posts saying we should all give him more money.
Back when I pirated TextMate 1 (probably in 2006 or so) I told myself that I'd pay for it when 2.0 came out. I still plan to, though I'll admit that it's been longer than I thought it would be.
Blah, blah, blah. I seem to remember all versions free up to but not including version 2. Anyways, aside from it being a little bit better then Notepad++ mostly in UI. It's OK. I personally roll with: Textmate for local dev @ home & vim, Dreamweaver & Notepad++ @ work and Eclipse & gEdit @ school. Personally if I could find an IDE that isn't as heavy as Eclipse that can roll HTML, java, php, css, coldfusion, ruby, bash, javascript and C I'd happily convert from 6 different editors to 1. ... #justSayin
Just for interest's sake can anyone point to this 'promise' of a free upgrade to version 2? I bought TM1 and it played no part on my buying decision because I was not not aware of any such guarantee.
If this promise was made then IMHO his best option is to adopt the Firefox/Chrome numbering scheme: stabilise and release whatever he has now as TM2.
He should also change the licensing to free updates for 12 months from date of purchase and continue working on TM3.
If this promise was made then IMHO his best option is to adopt the Firefox/Chrome numbering scheme: stabilise and release whatever he has now as TM2.
He should also change the licensing to free updates for 12 months from date of purchase and continue working on TM3.
See for example the "license policy" page [1], where it says, "We do hope to release a free 2.0 upgrade (which will require Leopard) but we provide no guarantees about this, we do not promise what features it may or may not include, we do not have any expected date of release etc."
[1] http://macromates.com/license_policy
[1] http://macromates.com/license_policy
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While you were talking, a new update for ST2 has arrived :)
I agree. I would gladly pay full price for TextMate 2, even although I paid for it the first time around. Of all the software I've bought over the years, TextMate is the one product that I use every day.
I'd started looking at Sublime Text 2 as a possible replacement, as it's got some really nice features. The TM2 announcement fills me with hope that I may not have to do that... so I'll hang in there a bit longer.
I'd started looking at Sublime Text 2 as a possible replacement, as it's got some really nice features. The TM2 announcement fills me with hope that I may not have to do that... so I'll hang in there a bit longer.
I don't really own a Mac nor do I use TextMate but over the years, I have heard about its greatness. I am just dying to ask this but why not put an optional paid upgrade? That way, if someone feels like paying for it, you'd know :)
Sublime Text 2 (which is my TextMate :) on Windows) uses something like this - keep using it and pay when you feel like model and I absolutely love it!
Sublime Text 2 (which is my TextMate :) on Windows) uses something like this - keep using it and pay when you feel like model and I absolutely love it!
I find it depressing that some people in the comments here wouldn't want to pay for a _key tool of their trade_ - assuming they work with texts professionally as programmers, bloggers, designers etc. Even 10% increase in productivity will pay for Textmate license in 10 days, assuming you get at least a minimum wage.
I don't think it's depressing. I can use emacs (others would give different examples) for free and I can use it in my daily work quite efficiently. So given that reality, I have a hard time paying for an editor, even if it is a key tool of my trade.
What I was trying to say is that every tool should be evaluated using 'productivity gain vs cost' framework. It may well be that for some people productivity gains of TextMate vs emacs/vim/other editor are small and therefore paying any price for TextMate is unreasonable, since the alternatives are free.
But in a case where TextMate does yield to substantial productivity gain, "$60 is too much" is a wrong mental model.
But in a case where TextMate does yield to substantial productivity gain, "$60 is too much" is a wrong mental model.
Couldn't agree more. The fact that so few developers are willing to pay for good tools is why we end up with tools like Eclipse.
The point is that we all did pay for good tools. We paid for TM1, and TM1 included the promise of a free update to TM2. I already own TM2, see?
Do you really claim that existing commercial IDEs are so much better than Eclipse?
I use eclipse every day and would never defend it against almost any disparagement.
I don't particularly love Eclipse, but I just don't agree that the commercial alternatives are so much better. Which IDE would you recommend yourself?
For java development? I don't have a recommendation really. I've tried Intelli-j and I think it is def. better but at least for my workflow at the paying job, eclipse's notion of project works out much better.
Few people are saying that $60 is too much.
Many people are saying, I paid $60 w/ the promise of an upgrade to X. I expect that commitment to be honored.
I think the problem most here have with this (and I have the same issue myself, though for me it is hypothetical since I'm not a TextMate user) is that the way Marco worded his article he is suggesting that the TextMate creator should go back on his word and charge all users for TM2.
Randomly changing terms like that is BS regardless of whether a big corp or a small company is doing it. A lot of people who use TextMate as much as Marco does may be willing to throw in some more money for TM2, but going back on your word is never a good thing, so Allan should provide TM2 for free as promised and then have a separate Donate button or some other clever way to allow satisfied customers to pay for TM2.
Randomly changing terms like that is BS regardless of whether a big corp or a small company is doing it. A lot of people who use TextMate as much as Marco does may be willing to throw in some more money for TM2, but going back on your word is never a good thing, so Allan should provide TM2 for free as promised and then have a separate Donate button or some other clever way to allow satisfied customers to pay for TM2.
I find it depressing that if I pay for something with the promise of free upgrade and it wasn't. There are people like you who will jump out from the wood to defend it. Don't make any promise if you can't keep.
I find it interesting how he feels that software purchased through discount bundles are not proper.
He could just do what everyone else is doing: move to the Mac App Store and charge everyone again.
When I bought, I remember reading the free upgrades part, but I had thought it was only up "TO" version 2.0 not including 2.0. Somehow I just assume that major upgrades are fair game for upgrade fees.
So...if 2.0 is truly a major upgrade I'm more than willing to pay the $60.
Count me in!
So...if 2.0 is truly a major upgrade I'm more than willing to pay the $60.
Count me in!
If as a current TextMate user I'll have to pay for TextMate 2 I'll just switch to MacVim.
If you don't mind me asking, why on earth would you do that?
1. Your existing copy of TextMate will continue to work just fine 2. Have you used MacVim recently? Assuming TM2 has a totally painless upgrade path from TM1, you will be spending weeks getting used to vim. Surely, it is cheaper to invest in TM2.
1. Your existing copy of TextMate will continue to work just fine 2. Have you used MacVim recently? Assuming TM2 has a totally painless upgrade path from TM1, you will be spending weeks getting used to vim. Surely, it is cheaper to invest in TM2.
1.Yes, indeed my existing version of TextMate will work just fine, however it won't get any new features/updates in the long run since probably most resources will be spent developing TextMate 2. I will be using an abandoned product.
2. My TextMate license is only a few months old, so probably there will be the felling of buyer's remorse.
3. Since MacVim is free if there will ever be a totally new MacVim version I can easily switch to it with no additional costs involved.
So in the short run, yes sticking to TextMate is far easier, but in the long run I feel like switching to MacVim will be a better investment.
2. My TextMate license is only a few months old, so probably there will be the felling of buyer's remorse.
3. Since MacVim is free if there will ever be a totally new MacVim version I can easily switch to it with no additional costs involved.
So in the short run, yes sticking to TextMate is far easier, but in the long run I feel like switching to MacVim will be a better investment.
"you will be spending weeks getting used to vim."
How in the world would that even be possible? Give it a weekend at most.
How in the world would that even be possible? Give it a weekend at most.
Depends on how you approach it, but, if you are particular, it can take weeks to get everything setup.
First you have to learn a lot about vim and what it does.
Then you have to memorize the all the shortcuts for all the stuff, there are quite a few.
Then muscle memory those.
For me personally, there are about 10 plugins I use regularly that don't ship with vim, that I had to discover and learn how to use. So you have to run into an issue, discover its not in vim core, see if there is a plugin, pick a plugin, install it, learn how to use it, etc.
Then there is configuring vim to do all the stuff you want.
MacVim + Janus.vim helps a ton, but even so, there is tons more stuff to learn about vim to do your daily tasks than there is probably anything else in programming
First you have to learn a lot about vim and what it does.
Then you have to memorize the all the shortcuts for all the stuff, there are quite a few.
Then muscle memory those.
For me personally, there are about 10 plugins I use regularly that don't ship with vim, that I had to discover and learn how to use. So you have to run into an issue, discover its not in vim core, see if there is a plugin, pick a plugin, install it, learn how to use it, etc.
Then there is configuring vim to do all the stuff you want.
MacVim + Janus.vim helps a ton, but even so, there is tons more stuff to learn about vim to do your daily tasks than there is probably anything else in programming
Two days just to get used to it. On and off experimentation for the right set of plugins, eventually getting a good vimrc. A very long time before you get proficient.
A hyperbole, no doubt, but vim is way harder to use than TM.
A hyperbole, no doubt, but vim is way harder to use than TM.
I think you mean "harder to learn".
Nope! Harder to use. It's basically impossible to discover new functionality in vim without reading technical documentation for it, whereas in Textmate I assume (having never used it) that feature is accessible using a mouse.
TM is more usable than vim.
TM is more usable than vim.
1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use".
2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them...
3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy.
2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them...
3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy.
>1) "discover new functionality" is a "learn", not a "use".
I'm talking about application usability. When I say something is hard to "use" I roughly mean "how easy it is to pick up" and "how easy it is to use everyday".
It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it.
After six years of regular vim use I still find myself constantly forgetting key shortcuts and which feature accomplishes what.
A text editor is not conceptually difficult application. It's unlike a cockpit. Case in point, Textmate.
Whatever, it's not worth splitting hairs. I think that not being able to use an app until you thoroughly look at its documentation is a fairly clear cute example of an unusable app.
>2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them...
I know. I use MacVim almost every day of my life. The menus don't even cover everything you can do with a buffer or a split.
>3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy.
Reading blogs I think falls under 'documentation'. I don't want to Read Things just to use 10% of a text editor's features.
I'm talking about application usability. When I say something is hard to "use" I roughly mean "how easy it is to pick up" and "how easy it is to use everyday".
It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it.
After six years of regular vim use I still find myself constantly forgetting key shortcuts and which feature accomplishes what.
A text editor is not conceptually difficult application. It's unlike a cockpit. Case in point, Textmate.
Whatever, it's not worth splitting hairs. I think that not being able to use an app until you thoroughly look at its documentation is a fairly clear cute example of an unusable app.
>2) Vim can have menus too if you want them, and a mouse to go with them...
I know. I use MacVim almost every day of my life. The menus don't even cover everything you can do with a buffer or a split.
>3) I learn new things about vim all the time without reading the documentation. A massive community makes that quite easy.
Reading blogs I think falls under 'documentation'. I don't want to Read Things just to use 10% of a text editor's features.
1) "It's a sign of poor application design when you have to learn it instead of merely using it."
No, what this actually is a sign of is disingenuous arguing. I have conceded that vim is harder to learn. What I do not concede is that it is otherwise hard to use. You understand what I am saying, but being purposely difficult.
2) If vim's menus were to cover everything vim can do, then we would have ourselves a usability issue. That menu system would be absurdly deep (which is really just an argument in favor of vim if you think about it critically).
3) Blogs are not "technical documentation", which is what you said. Not to mention that any developer in the world should be able to use compat mode without reading anything. The rest of vim's feature set is large enough that it will require some type of research to uncover, no matter the presentation. Textmate can avoid this by having a dramatically smaller feature set.
No, what this actually is a sign of is disingenuous arguing. I have conceded that vim is harder to learn. What I do not concede is that it is otherwise hard to use. You understand what I am saying, but being purposely difficult.
2) If vim's menus were to cover everything vim can do, then we would have ourselves a usability issue. That menu system would be absurdly deep (which is really just an argument in favor of vim if you think about it critically).
3) Blogs are not "technical documentation", which is what you said. Not to mention that any developer in the world should be able to use compat mode without reading anything. The rest of vim's feature set is large enough that it will require some type of research to uncover, no matter the presentation. Textmate can avoid this by having a dramatically smaller feature set.
1) It's just been my experience, when designing and discussing user interfaces, to include "how discoverable" an application is as a factor to how "usable" they are.
A LOT OF FEATURES that experts can use does not necessarily make something usable.
If this falls outside of the purview of what you consider to be satisfactory, that's fine by me.
2) Not really. You'd have a few context menus, and maybe an inspector window might be necessary. Obviously you're not going to represent all of the keyshortcuts but there is no good reason why I can't right click on a split and reorganize it relative to my other buffers. Or select text and hide it using whatever feature "zf" is called. Etc, etc.
Maybe I have an extremely dim of the full, non plugin augmented, vim featureset but… I think it would be possible.
3) Now you're the one splitting hairs. A blog post covering a specific vim key combo… is documentation of a technical sort. C'mon now. Few people are reading that to relax after work.
>The rest of vim's feature set is large enough that it will require some type of research to uncover
I disagree with this. I mean, if you want to compete at vimgolf, of course you need to know the internals inside and out. But there ought to be no reason why I need to memorize five commands off the bat just to split a window. Or set a macro. Or blah blah blah blah.
A LOT OF FEATURES that experts can use does not necessarily make something usable.
If this falls outside of the purview of what you consider to be satisfactory, that's fine by me.
2) Not really. You'd have a few context menus, and maybe an inspector window might be necessary. Obviously you're not going to represent all of the keyshortcuts but there is no good reason why I can't right click on a split and reorganize it relative to my other buffers. Or select text and hide it using whatever feature "zf" is called. Etc, etc.
Maybe I have an extremely dim of the full, non plugin augmented, vim featureset but… I think it would be possible.
3) Now you're the one splitting hairs. A blog post covering a specific vim key combo… is documentation of a technical sort. C'mon now. Few people are reading that to relax after work.
>The rest of vim's feature set is large enough that it will require some type of research to uncover
I disagree with this. I mean, if you want to compete at vimgolf, of course you need to know the internals inside and out. But there ought to be no reason why I need to memorize five commands off the bat just to split a window. Or set a macro. Or blah blah blah blah.
"Few people are reading that to relax after work."
The popularity of vim screencasts might suggest otherwise.
The popularity of vim screencasts might suggest otherwise.
Just for the sake of curosity, which key shortcuts and features do you forget?
not used textmate, but what you're describing is "more discoverable" rather than "more usable"
Dude don't wait :) Use MacVim today.
Seriously. Frequent releases, native UI, rich plugin set, customizable, free, multi-platform (vim) and timeless.
i agree. do not resist, there is no esc :x
Understandable perspective from a successful independent app developer.
I will be paying for the upgrade. It's a full digit release that's been a kagillion years in the making. I've gotten my $'s worth out of all the 1.X's to date.
Being ashamed of buy discounted software is kind of stupid.
People may have different motives then you do. It is not stupidity - just one developer appreciating the work of another.
Sounds good, long as we are making developer requests.
Hey Marco, I want to pay for a really good kindle sync of instapaper, stop being so iOS focused.
Hey Marco, I want to pay for a really good kindle sync of instapaper, stop being so iOS focused.
There seems to be a lot of bickering along the lines of "business is business, and he should keep his promise of business"... Which doesn't quite make sense to me. If I were him, I'd charge all yall $80, but up it to $90 if you sent me an email about free upgrades. Buy it, or don't buy it. You love the product. you ponied up for a mac. I suspect somehow I'd sell enough to not be able to give a rats ass what you think. That's business my friends.
That is an... interesting approach.
I, for one, who would gladly pay for TM2 separately had I not already purchased a license for it, would not appreciate that kind of attitude and make sure never to do business with Macromates again.
I, for one, who would gladly pay for TM2 separately had I not already purchased a license for it, would not appreciate that kind of attitude and make sure never to do business with Macromates again.
Just present an optional payment screen, maybe a pay as much as you want scheme, to those who are upgrading.
2. Get rich
2. Get rich
Tell Alan to put a donation badge on the site. Problem SOLVED !!!
TextMate 2.0 will be free. Maybe TextMate 2.0.1 will cost $79. Maybe if enough people support TextMate 2.0 by paying for it, the rest of the freeloaders will get 2.0.1 for free, as well.
What would people like to see in TM2? I'll start:
- window splits - better inline search (i.e., from hitting /), so that the find/replace window isn't covering up the editor window
- window splits - better inline search (i.e., from hitting /), so that the find/replace window isn't covering up the editor window
its should be a paid upgrade... its taken too much time to be a freebee ..
It's strange how so many people are waiting for a number.
As far as I can tell, there have been almost no feature promises, so the TM developer would be perfectly within his rights to add the 1 or 2 promised features, bump the version to 2, and fulfil his contractual obligations.
As far as I can tell, there have been almost no feature promises, so the TM developer would be perfectly within his rights to add the 1 or 2 promised features, bump the version to 2, and fulfil his contractual obligations.
Maybe Allan should skip version 2 completely and just release the new one as TextMate 3.
Oh la la, look at this guy, he has money!
Me too.
How can the support for Textmate, expressing my will to pay - be worth a downvote.
I understand the urge to keep this place noise free, but people committing in public to pay for a new version - and I've also bought Textmate a long time ago - is probably of more information value for many people here - with their own projects - then many other upvoted comments.
I understand the urge to keep this place noise free, but people committing in public to pay for a new version - and I've also bought Textmate a long time ago - is probably of more information value for many people here - with their own projects - then many other upvoted comments.
WE WANT TEXTMATE FOR WINDOWS ABSOLUTELY
Paying for a text editor. Boggles the mind.
I've never used it; is it really /just/ a text editor?
Edit: to clarify, my use of "just" wasn't meant to be dismissive or diminutive in any way...
Edit: to clarify, my use of "just" wasn't meant to be dismissive or diminutive in any way...
Given the relationship that coders often have with their editors, this is like saying to some parents "It's just a boy"… If you spend a lot of time in one program voluntarily, it's hard not to develop some feelings for it, beyond pure utilitarian reason.
TextMate is certainly one of those programs. It embraced the programmability of a Unix-based environment, coupled with a very simple design and actually introduced some new concepts (or at least made existing ones more prominent and/or easier to use). It also came at the right time, filling a niche for developers that wasn't satisfied by the pure-Unix breed (vim, emacs), nor by the entrenched MacOS editors (well, BBEdit mainly). Being introduced in a quite hip Ruby on Rails screencast didn't hurt, either.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not even a hardcore TM fanboy, as I switch a lot between editors, while secretly regretting that I can't just stick to emacs…
But I certainly understand the appeal, and if a bit of money (that most developers who buy Macs certainly can afford) helps keeping the momentum of a resurrected application, I'm all for it. Whether I'm buying it, is another matter. Right now, it doesn't fill an interesting niche for me, and I'd much rather spend the time customizing my .emacs file. Never mind that where I'm really missing good editing functionality isn't HTML or Ruby, it's Objective-C (or Java, when that was still job-relevant), where an IDE really helps. Well, let's see what AppCode[1] can bring to that particular table…
[1]: http://www.jetbrains.com/objc/
TextMate is certainly one of those programs. It embraced the programmability of a Unix-based environment, coupled with a very simple design and actually introduced some new concepts (or at least made existing ones more prominent and/or easier to use). It also came at the right time, filling a niche for developers that wasn't satisfied by the pure-Unix breed (vim, emacs), nor by the entrenched MacOS editors (well, BBEdit mainly). Being introduced in a quite hip Ruby on Rails screencast didn't hurt, either.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not even a hardcore TM fanboy, as I switch a lot between editors, while secretly regretting that I can't just stick to emacs…
But I certainly understand the appeal, and if a bit of money (that most developers who buy Macs certainly can afford) helps keeping the momentum of a resurrected application, I'm all for it. Whether I'm buying it, is another matter. Right now, it doesn't fill an interesting niche for me, and I'd much rather spend the time customizing my .emacs file. Never mind that where I'm really missing good editing functionality isn't HTML or Ruby, it's Objective-C (or Java, when that was still job-relevant), where an IDE really helps. Well, let's see what AppCode[1] can bring to that particular table…
[1]: http://www.jetbrains.com/objc/
> I switch a lot between editors, while secretly regretting that I can't just stick to emacs…
Why can't you just stick to emacs?
Why can't you just stick to emacs?
> "I've never used it; is it really /just/ a text editor?"
It's not a text editor in the scheme of Notepad or TextEdit; it's an editor for text. That is, it's a tool for programmers, with all the searching, syntax highlighting, and whatnot that goes alongside. Sometimes even writers use it.
What makes TextMate good is that it executes well, and doesn't (at least to me) try to be an IDE. Which is why many of us like it, or at least liked it, before things stagnated.
It's not a text editor in the scheme of Notepad or TextEdit; it's an editor for text. That is, it's a tool for programmers, with all the searching, syntax highlighting, and whatnot that goes alongside. Sometimes even writers use it.
What makes TextMate good is that it executes well, and doesn't (at least to me) try to be an IDE. Which is why many of us like it, or at least liked it, before things stagnated.
It sure is no Vim/Emacs, if that's what you're asking.
Which I suspect is exactly what makes it so popular.
How does it compare to Notepad++?
Pretty much...
I've seen this reaction when I advocate for Sublime-Text 2 (I don't use Text Mate as I want a cross-platform editor). Excellent FOSS applications exist in the space, but individuals may value what they get out of products that cost money.
To give an analogous example: You can get an old computer for cheap. Buying a newer computer might be still worth it - it really depends on what you're going to use the computer for. Paying extra money for the right tool for the job is usually a good investment.
To give an analogous example: You can get an old computer for cheap. Buying a newer computer might be still worth it - it really depends on what you're going to use the computer for. Paying extra money for the right tool for the job is usually a good investment.
Neat analogy, but in this case the "old computer" is far more powerful.
The point that parent is trying to make is, emacs and vim are free. emacs and vim are each much much more advanced editors than textmate.
I tend to agree. Also, the textmate 2 debacle shows the inherent weakness in basing a large part of your productivity on closed source software. What if textmate 2 never came out? What if textmate didn't work on OSX 10.9, or what if in 5 years OSX is no longer a reasonable platform to develop on at all? I know that Emacs will be compiled wherever I land, and that all my extensions and configuration will go with me.
It's foolish to lock yourself in to a specific vendor for something as important as an editor (if you are a programmer). Feel free to be foolish, it's your right, but it is foolish.
I tend to agree. Also, the textmate 2 debacle shows the inherent weakness in basing a large part of your productivity on closed source software. What if textmate 2 never came out? What if textmate didn't work on OSX 10.9, or what if in 5 years OSX is no longer a reasonable platform to develop on at all? I know that Emacs will be compiled wherever I land, and that all my extensions and configuration will go with me.
It's foolish to lock yourself in to a specific vendor for something as important as an editor (if you are a programmer). Feel free to be foolish, it's your right, but it is foolish.
I totally get paying when you don't have to in order to support fellow developers. I've got a nice collection of apps on my phone and desktop, all purchased, that I've acquired over the years to support my friends' development efforts. So if Marco wants to help out Macromates, that's fine. More power to him.
But I don't understand this mantra of, "We'll forgive you; just charge everyone." Let's ignore entirely whether that's a contract violation and just focus on whether it's fair.
Zoom back several years to the era Marco's talking about. TextMate 1.0 ships. It's a nice editor--really nice, actually--but it has a lot of rough edges to it. But, Allen promises, buy now anyway; upgrades through version 2.0 are completely free. So a lot of people, including me, slapped down money to buy version 1.0 on this promise. (And in my case, also to support an upstart dev who was daring to take down the 800-pound gorilla of Mac text editors, Bare Bones' BBEdit.)
But that promise never materialized. TextMate got a lot of improvements initially, but there's now a relatively large collection of third-party plugins you need just to achieve parity with the now-native versions of Vim and Emacs that can be had for free.
And in exchange for not shipping anything for literally years, you want to reward him by paying him more?
What am I missing here?