Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/us/politics/chips-act-grant-intel.html
629 comments
https://archive.is/XkIJs
WRT to lack of a skilled workforce, here is an interesting anecdote. I remember back in the late 90's, Intel had to fire most line workers in their FABS, and hire people with Ph.D.'s in solid-state physics.
I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve some problems I couldn't solve on my own.
Why was she cleaning houses? Tragic story. No doubt she could have gotten a Ph.D., but she was older, had some health problems which wouldn't let her work 60-80 hours a week. And she was black, perhaps discrimination was a factor too.
I'd hate to even think of how smart you have to be to work in FABs today, but let me tell you, not even $8.5 billion is going to create more of these people. Best you can hope for is you can pay them enough to get them to work for you.
I actually knew one of these people who were fired: She was our housecleaner. And--like the supper-smart garbage man of the Dilbert Cartoons, she was very smart. Smarter than me. I know because she helped me solve some problems I couldn't solve on my own.
Why was she cleaning houses? Tragic story. No doubt she could have gotten a Ph.D., but she was older, had some health problems which wouldn't let her work 60-80 hours a week. And she was black, perhaps discrimination was a factor too.
I'd hate to even think of how smart you have to be to work in FABs today, but let me tell you, not even $8.5 billion is going to create more of these people. Best you can hope for is you can pay them enough to get them to work for you.
Right now one of the biggest blockers in on-shoring semiconductor fab at any kind of reasonable price-point and timescale is the lack of a skilled workforce. This legislation has dual objectives: train new people to get into sophisticated manufacturing AND to build out the actual infrastructure itself. That almost guarantees it won't be the most efficient way to actually get these chips on American soil. Whether we look back in 20 years and think "wow glad we took that hit upfront" is anyone's guess.
We're living through the silicon age and Intel has made a total dog's breakfast of it.
Stagnant revenues, falling profits. Both should have been growing geometrically.
Just compare these companies:
https://valustox.com/INTC
https://valustox.com/AMD
https://valustox.com/AVGO
https://valustox.com/AMAT
Even Qualcomm has seen good growth: https://valustox.com/QCOM
This is how it's done: https://valustox.com/NVDA
EDIT these guys aren't primarily chipmakers, but they're deriving at least a couple of $Bn per year from making good ones: https://valustox.com/AAPL
Stagnant revenues, falling profits. Both should have been growing geometrically.
Just compare these companies:
https://valustox.com/INTC
https://valustox.com/AMD
https://valustox.com/AVGO
https://valustox.com/AMAT
Even Qualcomm has seen good growth: https://valustox.com/QCOM
This is how it's done: https://valustox.com/NVDA
EDIT these guys aren't primarily chipmakers, but they're deriving at least a couple of $Bn per year from making good ones: https://valustox.com/AAPL
I'm a foreigner native to one of the many nations where American influence led to the sale of sate enterprises, free trade, market liberalization, and overall loss of local companies to the hands of USA firms
It's wild to see the same thing happen to the USA now, and to see their government be the ones handing out taxpayer money and caring about national sovereignty over liberalization and "market efficiency".
It's wild to see the same thing happen to the USA now, and to see their government be the ones handing out taxpayer money and caring about national sovereignty over liberalization and "market efficiency".
I liked that US govt approved the Chips ACT, but I'm skeptic whether that will actually meaningfully change the manufacturing ability in-house.
The problem with US corporations is they are run by MBA management who are experts in stock price manipulation instead of manufacturing and engineering. So you could spend 100s of Billions and they don't materialize into much.
We see the same troubles at Boeing.
US has over-optimized for finance shenanigans at the cost of hard engineering.
SpaceX is perhaps something that truly stands out in terms of radical engineering mindset. If the same funding was applied to NASA they wouldn't have achieved a 10th of what SpaceX did.
Some corporations are just very inefficient. Intel being one of them.
I am for public funds being invested into companies only if they meet certain milestones, and new funding is only done if previous milestones are met.
Otherwise it goes from tax payers to some exec's pocket.
The problem with US corporations is they are run by MBA management who are experts in stock price manipulation instead of manufacturing and engineering. So you could spend 100s of Billions and they don't materialize into much.
We see the same troubles at Boeing.
US has over-optimized for finance shenanigans at the cost of hard engineering.
SpaceX is perhaps something that truly stands out in terms of radical engineering mindset. If the same funding was applied to NASA they wouldn't have achieved a 10th of what SpaceX did.
Some corporations are just very inefficient. Intel being one of them.
I am for public funds being invested into companies only if they meet certain milestones, and new funding is only done if previous milestones are met.
Otherwise it goes from tax payers to some exec's pocket.
Something about giving a multibillion dollar company government grants rubs me the wrong way.
Most of the money probably goes into hiring useless consulting firms to “do the leg work”.
Most of the money probably goes into hiring useless consulting firms to “do the leg work”.
Intel could have funded this themselves many times over if they'd reinvested their profits instead of paying huge buybacks and dividends.
Wouldn't GlobalFoundries (HQ in New York and supposedly on the "Trusted Foundry" list) have made more sense, since they fabricate chips for multiple different companies, where as Intel only makes them for Intel?
Boosts a competitor, opens up fab capacity for all and moves the needle on the intentions behind the CHIPS act, all at once.
Boosts a competitor, opens up fab capacity for all and moves the needle on the intentions behind the CHIPS act, all at once.
So when can we expect 8.5 billion in stock buybacks?
Oh good, another bunch of board members can now afford their yacht club memberships for 2024.
These handouts need to stop.
These handouts need to stop.
Glad to see so many people pissed off. Nothing will change but it's good to see so much information and callouts of corporate welfare.
Previous post on the news and apparently the CHIPS funds are not limited to Intel [1].
[1] US to inject billions of fab CHIPS cash subsidies to Intel, Samsung and TSMC:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39729979
[1] US to inject billions of fab CHIPS cash subsidies to Intel, Samsung and TSMC:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39729979
It's unlikely at this stage it's possible to bootstrap a company that makes CPUs, GPUs, etc, so it seems to me the US government wants to hedge their bets and keep Intel alive for now. $25B in total is a small price to pay for that.
That being said, I would've preferred it's not Intel that gets the life-line.
That being said, I would've preferred it's not Intel that gets the life-line.
My employer spent hundreds of millions of dollars on Intel hardware for a major system, and it still hasn't seen the light of day due to complete incompetence on Intel's part. I look forward to seeing how they mismanage this money.
Grants?! Isn't that massively anti-competitive/entrenching a monopoly?
I would've expected it to be at least disguised as a tax break or something. ('No tax on US-manufactured chips' or whatever.)
I would've expected it to be at least disguised as a tax break or something. ('No tax on US-manufactured chips' or whatever.)
I understand why Intel is getting these, but would be nice to see this money go to companies that are still innovating and are somewhere in the US coalition/orbit (TSMC, Samsung, etc.)
This is such a horrible approach to succeeding and will not do anything good for anyone.
Those factories will be mostly automated and so the idea that they will come with lots of jobs is misguided. On top of that to the extent this is a good idea the private market have no problem finding the money for that themselves.
The real issue is in the actual materials i.e. rare earth etc which is where the government completely dropped the ball the last 20 years.
8.5B going to the mining industry would make sense not to Intel.
Those factories will be mostly automated and so the idea that they will come with lots of jobs is misguided. On top of that to the extent this is a good idea the private market have no problem finding the money for that themselves.
The real issue is in the actual materials i.e. rare earth etc which is where the government completely dropped the ball the last 20 years.
8.5B going to the mining industry would make sense not to Intel.
Can't you guys just nationalize Intel instead of giving your hard earned money to oligarchs?
I thought fabs require massive amounts of water to function, isn't AZ a pretty dry state?
Cool. So, where you getting that labor you smothered out for shareholder value all those years ago? I both hate this but support this. I hate it because no one will learn their lesson and Chicago economics will go on being a theory from autists imposed on the rest of us with constant “externality” costs. Supportive because any fool not indoctrinated into the Chicago school could have seen what happens on a long enough timeline in such a fragile situation and this technology will make or break a nation in the current zeitgeist.
If Intel got $8.5B how come the stock didn't go up?
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/INTC/
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/INTC/
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Meanwhile, BDS just announced a boycott of Intel
> “Ethical responsibility and international law aside, by insisting on investing tens of billions of dollars in Israel, a ‘war zone,’ only miles away from occupied Gaza, Intel is putting its leaders’ fanatic ideological commitment to Israel over financial and fiduciary responsibility. Why else would Intel freeze plans to expand its chipmaking manufacturing in Ohio while throwing those billions into Israel, a state committing genocide?
https://bdsmovement.net/Press-Release-BDS-Launches-Boycott-I...
> “Ethical responsibility and international law aside, by insisting on investing tens of billions of dollars in Israel, a ‘war zone,’ only miles away from occupied Gaza, Intel is putting its leaders’ fanatic ideological commitment to Israel over financial and fiduciary responsibility. Why else would Intel freeze plans to expand its chipmaking manufacturing in Ohio while throwing those billions into Israel, a state committing genocide?
https://bdsmovement.net/Press-Release-BDS-Launches-Boycott-I...
[deleted]
nah, semiconductor design, fab and research would still pay like shit. Go back to building your CRUD apps.
I guess the trick is to convince governments that your industry is vital for national security.
I've noticed a trend of pay-walled articles lately on HN. Nothing wrong with journalists being paid, but I'm beginning to think that they are self-promoting rather than bubbling up organically.
It's frustrating that Intel is being given truckloads of taxpayer money after spending decades falling behind their competitors due to arrogance and complacency.