Ask HN: Apple Store advised (my mom) M3 MacBook Air over the M2. Ideas/Advice?
10 comments
They are both fine. I got an M2 mini with base disk and memory. The ancient 27 inch iMac had a 7200 rpm terabyte disk and more memory, IIRC, and this $600 computer laps it in every way. ( The display quit and I may yet have it fixed ) A great reason for modular computers. I've had a lot of mini's over time.
I store all I can on external SSD's. (Sneakernet is the fastest network of all, but I don't currently use it)
Most people do prefer all in one's of course. I stopped using the 2010 or so MBA. Still works. The iPad Pro is my laptop, with keyboard, trackpad and third party mouse. I use it for musical scores and showing off photos from the Nikons pretty exclusively. Size and portability matter. For these two uses, a laptop configuration is less suitable for me.
Desktops and laptops are still hundreds of times more efficient and useful to me than any mobile OS.
Even with the gamut of goodies.
If your mom upgrades so infrequently, it's like cars. The newer model will obsolete later.
My phone and some other systems fell off support, and can't get software upgrades. (Other than Linux, of course)
I suspect that's the rationale, even if the M series all seem interchangeable. Or maybe it will run out of horsepower later, as software gets even more demanding.
I doubt that she'll need to count cores and GPU's.
Most people do prefer all in one's of course. I stopped using the 2010 or so MBA. Still works. The iPad Pro is my laptop, with keyboard, trackpad and third party mouse. I use it for musical scores and showing off photos from the Nikons pretty exclusively. Size and portability matter. For these two uses, a laptop configuration is less suitable for me.
Desktops and laptops are still hundreds of times more efficient and useful to me than any mobile OS.
Even with the gamut of goodies.
If your mom upgrades so infrequently, it's like cars. The newer model will obsolete later.
My phone and some other systems fell off support, and can't get software upgrades. (Other than Linux, of course)
I suspect that's the rationale, even if the M series all seem interchangeable. Or maybe it will run out of horsepower later, as software gets even more demanding.
I doubt that she'll need to count cores and GPU's.
The computer will work for a long time, but in terms of updates, the M2 machines will stop being updated before the M3s - but that difference is just a year or so I think.
Depending on how much fiddling you/she wants to do with it, you may be able to use OpenCore Legacy Patcher to install a newer version of macOS on her 2011 machine, and keep using it. It can breath some new life into an old MBP or MBA.
Depending on how much fiddling you/she wants to do with it, you may be able to use OpenCore Legacy Patcher to install a newer version of macOS on her 2011 machine, and keep using it. It can breath some new life into an old MBP or MBA.
They’ll both likely work for a long time. The M3 will probably get an extra year of releases over the M2 at this point, just because it’s a year newer.
They’ll both easily get 5 years, but no computer is “future proof”, especially not ones using an SOC that can’t be upgraded over time. It might be good for a decade, but eventually a future will come that will demand an upgrade for one reason or another, unless she uses it offline (making security a non-issue) and gets very lucky with it never having an issue once parts are no longer available.
They’ll both easily get 5 years, but no computer is “future proof”, especially not ones using an SOC that can’t be upgraded over time. It might be good for a decade, but eventually a future will come that will demand an upgrade for one reason or another, unless she uses it offline (making security a non-issue) and gets very lucky with it never having an issue once parts are no longer available.
apple is taking advantage of your mums inflexibility...if it must be an apple and it has to last longer (not because hardware failure but engineered obsolescence, as it happened with the 2011 model) take the newest model
> outdated Safari and Chrome can no longer display online banking webpages properly
Banks and many other companies have moved on from 2011-era web standards. 13 years seems a good run for a laptop — cars and washing machines rarely last that long.
> The other issue I have is the small nonupgradable 8 GB memories in both base models.
Macs manage memory efficiently. 8Gb should be more than enough for web browsing and typical work.
Banks and many other companies have moved on from 2011-era web standards. 13 years seems a good run for a laptop — cars and washing machines rarely last that long.
> The other issue I have is the small nonupgradable 8 GB memories in both base models.
Macs manage memory efficiently. 8Gb should be more than enough for web browsing and typical work.
Yes.. so hypothetically if not for Safari/Chrome not being updatable for MacOS High Sierra, she would still be using the same laptop.
In fact I have the exact same model as her, a MacBook Air 2011 and I am still using it. I am typing on it right now. It has 4 GB RAM.
8 GB is considered unacceptable on a current Windows machine. The fact that Macs have unified memory or "better managed" (how? in software?) memory hardware/OS, while partly true, nevertheless is on the balance a less plausible an argument than the fact that Apple consistently, knowingly underspecs base model RAM (and overprices the RAM upgrades) for casual consumers. There's an argument for planned obsolescence here, if not at least identifying RAM to be the weakest part of a well-rounded system spec.
Besides, if Macs manage memory efficiently then please explain why is Apple online store pricing the M2+16 GB > the M3 base model? That's $70 more just for ram on an otherwise 2022 model. Is there a technological justification for that value? Or just the vagaries of supply and demand?
In fact I have the exact same model as her, a MacBook Air 2011 and I am still using it. I am typing on it right now. It has 4 GB RAM.
8 GB is considered unacceptable on a current Windows machine. The fact that Macs have unified memory or "better managed" (how? in software?) memory hardware/OS, while partly true, nevertheless is on the balance a less plausible an argument than the fact that Apple consistently, knowingly underspecs base model RAM (and overprices the RAM upgrades) for casual consumers. There's an argument for planned obsolescence here, if not at least identifying RAM to be the weakest part of a well-rounded system spec.
Besides, if Macs manage memory efficiently then please explain why is Apple online store pricing the M2+16 GB > the M3 base model? That's $70 more just for ram on an otherwise 2022 model. Is there a technological justification for that value? Or just the vagaries of supply and demand?
> Yes.. so hypothetically if not for Safari/Chrome not being updatable for MacOS High Sierra, she would still be using the same laptop.
If she'd preferred not to spend money on the laptop, or is just angry about Apple's planned obsolescence, you can always install another OS on the machine for her. I'm running Win10 on a 2013 Macbook Pro, and it supports Chrome just fine.
If she'd preferred not to spend money on the laptop, or is just angry about Apple's planned obsolescence, you can always install another OS on the machine for her. I'm running Win10 on a 2013 Macbook Pro, and it supports Chrome just fine.
I don’t work for Apple or have any stake in the company. I don’t know why or how Apple chooses specs for their products. I don’t know if some conspiracy of planned obsolescence underpins Apple’s long-term plans.
I use Apple products. I upgrade every two or three years (taking advantage of the generally excellent resale value) because I use my laptop all day long for work (web development). Right now I have a 2022 M2 MacBook Air with 8gb RAM. I have never experienced any memory exhaustion or performance problems.
It’s possible your mother needs an M3 or 16gb RAM, I can’t say for sure, but I doubt it unless she has an intense workload like video editing, in which case the Macbook Pro will work better.
If you don’t like Apple’s specs, pricing, upgrade options, or think they engage in conspiracies against their customers you can find lots of alternatives. Chromebooks offer great value, for example, with lower prices and better upgrade options. I wonder if Google will still support ChromeOS in a decade, whereas I have more confidence in MacOS.
My parents struggled with Windows laptops for years. I switched them to iPads, which they have successfully used for more than four years now, including mobile banking and web browsing. Maybe look into that.
I use Apple products. I upgrade every two or three years (taking advantage of the generally excellent resale value) because I use my laptop all day long for work (web development). Right now I have a 2022 M2 MacBook Air with 8gb RAM. I have never experienced any memory exhaustion or performance problems.
It’s possible your mother needs an M3 or 16gb RAM, I can’t say for sure, but I doubt it unless she has an intense workload like video editing, in which case the Macbook Pro will work better.
If you don’t like Apple’s specs, pricing, upgrade options, or think they engage in conspiracies against their customers you can find lots of alternatives. Chromebooks offer great value, for example, with lower prices and better upgrade options. I wonder if Google will still support ChromeOS in a decade, whereas I have more confidence in MacOS.
My parents struggled with Windows laptops for years. I switched them to iPads, which they have successfully used for more than four years now, including mobile banking and web browsing. Maybe look into that.
I'm not interested in any of those issues. I only raise them as counterexamples to the answers given previously.
What I am interested in is whether the M3 or M2 is better future-proofing option even for casual usage, on a 5+ year timescale. Imagine using a 2011 MBA today, is the kind of scenario I have in actual practice. Apple is known for making computers that last.
It also turns out that Ars Technica suggests an answer to the above, they recommend the M3 because it offers 2 extra years of future-proofing over the M2 due to Apple's OS update practices. It was in their Friday's review article. That's an acceptable enough answer for me for now.
I am secondarily actually curious as to the performance of an M2+16GB option over the M3. That, I don't have an answer to. But it also happens to be a good example to work over for anyone who asserts Macs have better memory management than Windows, since that depth of understanding implies - to me - the ability to explain the role of an extra 8 GB of M2 apparently being more valueable than an M3. It's a technical question but an interesting one purely for understanding purposes.
What I am interested in is whether the M3 or M2 is better future-proofing option even for casual usage, on a 5+ year timescale. Imagine using a 2011 MBA today, is the kind of scenario I have in actual practice. Apple is known for making computers that last.
It also turns out that Ars Technica suggests an answer to the above, they recommend the M3 because it offers 2 extra years of future-proofing over the M2 due to Apple's OS update practices. It was in their Friday's review article. That's an acceptable enough answer for me for now.
I am secondarily actually curious as to the performance of an M2+16GB option over the M3. That, I don't have an answer to. But it also happens to be a good example to work over for anyone who asserts Macs have better memory management than Windows, since that depth of understanding implies - to me - the ability to explain the role of an extra 8 GB of M2 apparently being more valueable than an M3. It's a technical question but an interesting one purely for understanding purposes.
“Performance” depends on what you measure. The M3 benchmarks faster than the M2. More RAM may or may not matter, depends on the workload. Less RAM means the OS may have to unload resources, but since a normal user only works on one app at a time that doesn’t necessarily mean you experience worse performance.
You can go to an Apple store and run benchmarks yourself. They only put base models on the floor, though.
I use an M2 8gb Macbook Air all day long for work. I have yet to run out of memory or experience any performance issues. It’s way faster than I can type or switch applications, the only performance that matters in actual usage. If I did video editing for example I would want more memory.
You can go to an Apple store and run benchmarks yourself. They only put base models on the floor, though.
I use an M2 8gb Macbook Air all day long for work. I have yet to run out of memory or experience any performance issues. It’s way faster than I can type or switch applications, the only performance that matters in actual usage. If I did video editing for example I would want more memory.
> I wonder if Google will still support ChromeOS in a decade, whereas I have more confidence in MacOS.
No need to wonder, Chromebooks get a decade of updates nowadays (previously Google delivered on 8 years of updates). And Chromebooks are used in plenty of companies too, so they won't backpedal on that. Plus they heavily use them internally.
No need to wonder, Chromebooks get a decade of updates nowadays (previously Google delivered on 8 years of updates). And Chromebooks are used in plenty of companies too, so they won't backpedal on that. Plus they heavily use them internally.
While the OP might want to upgrade his mum's laptop, it should be noted that an old MacBook can run any current Linux distribution.
These will offer the latest software, and will be able to do Internet banking without any issues, obviously.
Intel MacBooks from that era tend to pose very few problems, except for Broadcom wireless cards, which have relatively low performance.
These will offer the latest software, and will be able to do Internet banking without any issues, obviously.
Intel MacBooks from that era tend to pose very few problems, except for Broadcom wireless cards, which have relatively low performance.
Agreed, I have the 16gb M2 air and while it’s pushed to its limits when running Firefox with lots of tabs, webpack, docker and a windows vm in parallels at the same time it holds up very well. Can’t imagine that a normal user would have any problems at all with 8gb.
And I’ll just share that I’m an unnormal user who used the base model M1 years to live broadcast my classes on teams while also using Airplay to display my iPad on it, etc… and it remained blazing fast at 8gb of ram.
The base model is a great machine (and I just got an M2 base model this week having seen the M3 doesn’t add anything I care about)
The base model is a great machine (and I just got an M2 base model this week having seen the M3 doesn’t add anything I care about)
> Macs manage memory efficiently. 8Gb should be more than enough for web browsing and typical work.
I don't agree. Even on my 32GB MBP I sometimes get a frozen screen due to "not enough RAM" issues and I have to hard-reboot.
I don't agree. Even on my 32GB MBP I sometimes get a frozen screen due to "not enough RAM" issues and I have to hard-reboot.
The M3 does in fact have some software-visible architectural improvements over the M1/M2 (new GPU capabilities, and I believe some new instructions). This does mean that Apple is likely to sunset support for the M2 sooner than they might otherwise do.
Normally this is just an upscales tactic, but I'd be inclined to believe it this time.
Normally this is just an upscales tactic, but I'd be inclined to believe it this time.
Realistically the M2 will last several years though
And the M3 at least a few years more.
Anyone who doesnt buy new equipment regularly and comes in to the store is tried to upsell the most premium stuff. That’s what they are doing here. The premium stuff has the greatest profits.
Does your mom even need a Mac? How about a high end Chromebook?
M3 will receive one more update, that's all.
So yeah, will "last", in the sense of getting security updates, for one more year probably, which is indeed "lasting longer" as the salesperson said.
Of course Apple don't make any guarantees about how long they support products, so you never know. My 2017 iMac Pro still gets the latest OS whereas my dad's 2017 iMac does not. But looking at the iPhones, where the iPhone X lost support one year before the iPhone XS, which was very similar, I think it's a reasonable bet to say the M2 will lose support a year before M3.
Of course Apple don't make any guarantees about how long they support products, so you never know. My 2017 iMac Pro still gets the latest OS whereas my dad's 2017 iMac does not. But looking at the iPhones, where the iPhone X lost support one year before the iPhone XS, which was very similar, I think it's a reasonable bet to say the M2 will lose support a year before M3.
He obviously meant it will be useful longer in terms of functional obsolescence.
Your mom will do Word and Facebook on an M2 happily for five years, but you knew that.
Your mom will do Word and Facebook on an M2 happily for five years, but you knew that.
I don't know that. Rather, I don't know if an M2 or M3 is the better buy for someone who wants their computer to last as long as possible.
My MacBook air will probably last 14 years and my mother's has lasted 13 years. That's the timescale I'm interested in.
Regardless, the salesperson (BTW not a "he") said obviously said it to my mother, so why would they advise about general longevity for a use case context most likely to consist of banking/email chores? Is it possible they see something that we do not? E.g. future software upgradability? Or are they blindly repeating what the management told them to say?
My MacBook air will probably last 14 years and my mother's has lasted 13 years. That's the timescale I'm interested in.
Regardless, the salesperson (BTW not a "he") said obviously said it to my mother, so why would they advise about general longevity for a use case context most likely to consist of banking/email chores? Is it possible they see something that we do not? E.g. future software upgradability? Or are they blindly repeating what the management told them to say?
You keep describing them as a salesperson, that's the answer to your question:
> why would they advise about general longevity for a use case context most likely to consist of banking/email chores?
Because their job is the upsell. They're trying to sell your mother on an M3 because it is the most recent one, and they (Apple, not the individual, but they incentivize the individual) want the sales numbers to reflect a high degree of uptake in the market for the newer devices. Don't trust sales people. Just examine the devices yourself, their prices, their suitability for your uses, and their capabilities. Or not, and do trust salespeople but then you're going to spend most of your life being upsold and scammed.
> why would they advise about general longevity for a use case context most likely to consist of banking/email chores?
Because their job is the upsell. They're trying to sell your mother on an M3 because it is the most recent one, and they (Apple, not the individual, but they incentivize the individual) want the sales numbers to reflect a high degree of uptake in the market for the newer devices. Don't trust sales people. Just examine the devices yourself, their prices, their suitability for your uses, and their capabilities. Or not, and do trust salespeople but then you're going to spend most of your life being upsold and scammed.
Except I'm not interested in ad homineming the incentives of the salesperson, of which I am well aware.
I am interested in if there is a valid argument, which entails the last bit of what you yourself said:
> Just examine the devices yourself, their prices, their suitability for your uses, and their capabilities
Their "capabilities" include the capability to be future-proof. To the extent that a salespersons asserted the future-proofing issue, even though they did not explain their assertion, is what begs me to ask the very reasonable question as to how to critically analyze this particular capability.
You can help the other commenters dodge this question or not, I don't care if the salesperson is trustworthy or not, because that was not the question I care about.
I am interested in if there is a valid argument, which entails the last bit of what you yourself said:
> Just examine the devices yourself, their prices, their suitability for your uses, and their capabilities
Their "capabilities" include the capability to be future-proof. To the extent that a salespersons asserted the future-proofing issue, even though they did not explain their assertion, is what begs me to ask the very reasonable question as to how to critically analyze this particular capability.
You can help the other commenters dodge this question or not, I don't care if the salesperson is trustworthy or not, because that was not the question I care about.
You must consider how absurdly overkill the M series are for these tasks. I have an M2 Air and it's ridiculously snappy for far heavier workloads.
Hell my Macbook Pro from 2017 was fine for this.
Hell my Macbook Pro from 2017 was fine for this.
I did consider that, and what you're implying is the M2/M3 wouldn't matter for now*. The issue is which one would be future proof 5+ years later.
It seems the answer is M3 by 2 years, because yesterday's Ars Technica review says Apple phases out its OS/browser upgrades by model year, so the M2 would lose upgradeability 2 years earlier if purchased today versus the M3. The article ends recommending the M3 for this reason. It's not a great reason IMO but the one that makes sense to me.
It seems the answer is M3 by 2 years, because yesterday's Ars Technica review says Apple phases out its OS/browser upgrades by model year, so the M2 would lose upgradeability 2 years earlier if purchased today versus the M3. The article ends recommending the M3 for this reason. It's not a great reason IMO but the one that makes sense to me.
So how true is that? This salesperson has brilliantly/unwittingly struck at my mother's pet peeve, since her previous 2011 MacBook with outdated Safari and Chrome can no longer display online banking webpages properly.
I'd think that the M2 and M3 being the same family would still have roughly the same long-term lifespans, for the sort of light home-office work of the sort my mom needs at least 5+ years. Is the M3 really more future-proof as the Apple Store salesperson claims?
The other issue I have is the small nonupgradable 8 GB memories in both base models. Curiously, the base models are $100 different, but the M2 + 16 GB upgrade costs even more than the base M3. Maybe the pricing will change again in a few months, but my mom needs a replacement computer this month!