Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination(indiatoday.in)
indiatoday.in
Apple becomes first tech giant to explicitly ban caste discrimination
https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/apple-becomes-first-tech-giant-to-explicitly-ban-caste-discrimination-trains-managers-on-indian-caste-system-1988183-2022-08-15
590 comments
Out of curiosity, for Indians working in America, how hard is it to hide your caste or pretend to be of another caste altogether?
Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians? Do names tend to correlate to you caste? And if so, do people change them as a way of hiding their family caste?
Is this something that comes up in conversation among Indians? Do names tend to correlate to you caste? And if so, do people change them as a way of hiding their family caste?
My dad once told me of how at his work (in the 1980s or early 1990s, I think), they had a team of two Indians assigned to a project. One turned out to be of a much "higher" caste than the other, and refused to work with the other, making him utterly useless to the project.
It's good that Apple, IBM and other tech companies are taking steps to prevent this sort of discrimination. It's a shame that Google seems be going in the opposite direction.
It's good that Apple, IBM and other tech companies are taking steps to prevent this sort of discrimination. It's a shame that Google seems be going in the opposite direction.
This is a good step forward but wait until Apple realizes that Indians discriminate on many other factors including but not limited to skin color, state of origin, region of origin (North vs South vs NorthEast), mother tongue, religion (Hindu vs Muslim), Political beliefs (Left vs Right).
I think this is a reason why Leetcode style interviews are popular. They remove at least one type of bias of race - the ability to solve coding problems. If you can solve Online Assessment, Phone Assessment and Onsites, you keep moving on to the next round, regardless of your race or ethnicity. It is a way for companies to claim that there is no bias in hiring.
From what I hear from my Indian friends, this behaviour is quite ingrained. Like other racism, it will be challenging to prove.
I have this impression that casteism can commonly exist in people that are otherwise progressive and non-racist, is that true? I once had a pen-pal that worked for the UN that at some point told me that she viewed the caste system as a "useful way to organize society". I was rather taken aback since that viewpoint didn't seem to comport with my other impressions of her.
California treats ancestry as a protected class, and discrimination by ancestry is illegal. Not being a Desi, I struggle to see how this is not already covered.
Here in europe, we have a large minority called Romany (derogatorily known as Gypsy). An indian people that apparently was a caste in india, migrated to europe some 400 years ago, later on ending up as slaves and then finally getting freed (to a certain extent). Sadly this group of indians is heavily misunderstood and massively discriminated against, and there is little to no effort in understanding their culture or helping them. A shame for a would be “fair” continent that unapologetically continues to discriminate against people based on ethnicity and other petty criteria.
Sources: https://m.timesofindia.com/where-do-gypsies-come-from/articl...
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/twin-researches-...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/genetic-se...
Sources: https://m.timesofindia.com/where-do-gypsies-come-from/articl...
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/twin-researches-...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/genetic-se...
This is good. I don't know how effective it will be in practice however since all forms of outlawed discrimination largely end up in the "culture fit" bucket.
"Culture fit" is really insidious. Like many forms of discrimination I don't think it's even necessarily a conscious bias but this absolutely still exists (eg [1]). "Culture fit" is an umbrella for de facto racism, sexism, ageism and classism.
[1]: https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/08/18/name-discriminati...
"Culture fit" is really insidious. Like many forms of discrimination I don't think it's even necessarily a conscious bias but this absolutely still exists (eg [1]). "Culture fit" is an umbrella for de facto racism, sexism, ageism and classism.
[1]: https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/08/18/name-discriminati...
To Apple they are all Indian.
In my opinion, companies should produce "challenges" for leading personal, from a sort of internal investigations team, and among them should be corruption challenges, security challenges, nepotism challenges and discrimination challenges.
If you fail them, you get demoted or otherwise restructured.
Of course, this creates a atmosphere of distrust, but some things, like Meritocratic atmosphere, are worth it.
If you fail them, you get demoted or otherwise restructured.
Of course, this creates a atmosphere of distrust, but some things, like Meritocratic atmosphere, are worth it.
Reminds me of a passage from the great Jack Vance.
Paraphrasing:
"To construct a society based on caste distinctions, a minimum of two persons is both necessary and sufficient." - Baron Bodissey
Paraphrasing:
"To construct a society based on caste distinctions, a minimum of two persons is both necessary and sufficient." - Baron Bodissey
Every tech company should do this. Civil Rights Act Title 7 should cover this. Lawsuits winning should happen to reinforce it.
I have mixed feelings on this.
There are of course things that aren't explicitly prohibited by workplace policies but are no doubt unacceptable - e.g. discriminating against left-handed employees. But it's still useful to have explicit policies against caste discrimination to make clear that it's unacceptable.
On the other hand, as an Indian in a top tech company we're more likely to experience racism than casteism (though both are relatively rare), and this policy is likely to increase racism and result in Indians (and other South Asians) getting singled-out and scrutinized for casteism.
Edit: as if to prove my point about racism, in this very thread there is already a comment talking about Indian nepotism.
There are of course things that aren't explicitly prohibited by workplace policies but are no doubt unacceptable - e.g. discriminating against left-handed employees. But it's still useful to have explicit policies against caste discrimination to make clear that it's unacceptable.
On the other hand, as an Indian in a top tech company we're more likely to experience racism than casteism (though both are relatively rare), and this policy is likely to increase racism and result in Indians (and other South Asians) getting singled-out and scrutinized for casteism.
Edit: as if to prove my point about racism, in this very thread there is already a comment talking about Indian nepotism.
I wonder is it really necessary to explicitly ban every sort of discrimination? Shouldn't it be simple 'discrimination is not allowed'? Otherwise we will be listing every type of discrimination and revisiting this list every now and then. And it leads to questions like 'is it acceptable to discriminate by boldness if it is not in the list?'
While I agree that such not-so-well-known discriminations should be publically discussed, I feel like 'banning' them one by one is the wrong direction to take.
While I agree that such not-so-well-known discriminations should be publically discussed, I feel like 'banning' them one by one is the wrong direction to take.
But did they explicitly ban slavery?
Kudos to Apple - I wonder how does this work in practice. Policing discrimination is difficult period, however for better or worse racial and gender discrimination have a visual impact which makes it somewhat easier to identify. From what I've learned there are a lot of niche aspects to caste discrimination and I wonder what sort of guidelines Apple has built internally to monitor this. Does Apple know which caste their employees traditionally belong to?
There are nice short videos which talks about racism and tries to make people less racist. Similarly in India it would be good to develop such short videos so that people can become sensitive on this topic of caste and become a better society.
Example video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDPTVEqkGa4
Example video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDPTVEqkGa4
[deleted]
Curious, does this include Apple enforcing the policy with contractors, partners, etc — basically any business relationship Apple has a significant leverage over?
Ask because Apple directly and indirectly consumes vast amounts of human labor in India.
If not, has any company of significant size ever successfully made this a policy in India?
Ask because Apple directly and indirectly consumes vast amounts of human labor in India.
If not, has any company of significant size ever successfully made this a policy in India?
How hard is it to fake being of a higher caste like Brahmin or Kshatriya?
Since it’s not skin color but your heritage, can’t you falsify this information? Especially if you claim to be from some rural or remote location?
Just how involved would someone try to investigate your background?
Since it’s not skin color but your heritage, can’t you falsify this information? Especially if you claim to be from some rural or remote location?
Just how involved would someone try to investigate your background?
I could have misread or maybe it was some sort of propaganda but I thought I read somewhere that Silicon Valley's caste discrimination is the inverse of what used to be in India? i.e. the lower castes discriminating against the higher castes.
I would love to have the opportunity to see caste discrimination myself, I swear by god I will get the discriminator fired on the spot, right after making him feel very little. Caste/race discrimination is the dumbest/sickest thing I have ever seen.
Does employment law in India prohibit caste discrimination? If Apple's policy is more stringent than Indian law it presents interesting challenges in a pan-national workforce, especially with employees and contractors located in India.
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
I don’t understand how this isn’t already illegal
Just curious how this can be enforced when there are conflicts. In the US, how can it be proven someone belongs to specific caste.
HR absolutely struggled with the issue. The HR folks tasked with dealing with discrimination issues largely had spent their time constructing company wide emails and classes that revolved around white folks discriminating against others / concepts of privilege, absolutely froze when faced with a discrimination issue outside that stereotype.
Long story short legal eventually was the brave one and decided that yes it was discrimination and the manager in question was asked to move on. The folks he refused to work with were compensated and their status in the company (pay scale, etc) was corrected.
As one of my Indian college's observed about the manager in question "If he was white this would have been dealt with sooner."
Credit to my Indian coworkers who really pushed this issue with HR and made legal act in the end. They wanted nothing to do with this kind of behavior.