Ask HN: Why is the visa process stuck in the “Catch me if you can” days?
5 comments
The amount of visa fraud that exists is just mind blowing, and there are different flavors for every visa category that exists. The amount of staff assigned to process visa applications is small and have to make a decision which has weight on their home country. Outsourcing the process as much as possible allows fraud patterns to be caught more quickly and slowing the process reduces the incentives for bad actors to push their luck, esp if they don’t get to hold their passport during the process.
I say this as somebody that’s pro-immigration. The system sucks but it’s doing a service for the destination country and legit applicants.
If a country is going to just stamp “approved” on most people, they wouldn’t bother with having consular staff process applications, they’d offer visa on arrival or visa waivers.
I say this as somebody that’s pro-immigration. The system sucks but it’s doing a service for the destination country and legit applicants.
If a country is going to just stamp “approved” on most people, they wouldn’t bother with having consular staff process applications, they’d offer visa on arrival or visa waivers.
I didn't say that they have to approve more people or reduce the scrutiny, just that they could digitize their process.
I would say your question could be restated as "why are government services bad". I think government services are bad because they are the ultimate monopoly. Their funding is guaranteed regardless of quality of service (it comes from the government), and their customer base and revenue is guaranteed regardless of quality of service (if you need a visa, you've gotta use them). So why should anyone make it better? Who benefits? Some people who are going to use it anyway even if it sucks.
I want to also add: why do we have to submit the same information (full name, passport number, expiration dates, travel history, etc.) each time we apply for a visa even if we are applying to the same country.
For an American tourist visa (B1/B2) for example, you can apply again if you are rejected, but you must show that a tangible change in circumstances has occurred since your previous application (ie funds, reason for visiting, better proof of ties back to home). Re-using a previous application may communicate "all you need to do to try again is just pay again" which consumes embassy resources that need to be spent on other applicants. Making you fill it all out again adds just enough friction to make sure you've actually had some circumstantial change to warrant a reapplication
Clearly you are not familiar with bureaucracies and how they grow. You do not need to file your taxes explicitly, or at any rate, rehash the information that's already known to the government, such as your taxes withheld and so on, every year. But if you do that, then a lot of people will lose their cushy government jobs, and vested interests, such as corporations and unions that feed at the government trough will end up on the losing side as well. That's why you end up doing these things repeatedly. Yes, there's software, but that is only an aid for the bureaucrats to do less actual work.
Politicians are of course complicit and key enablers of these schemes. They gain leverage when this type of pork is in their constituencies.
Politicians are of course complicit and key enablers of these schemes. They gain leverage when this type of pork is in their constituencies.
> You do not need to file your taxes explicitly, or at any rate, rehash the information that's already known to the government, such as your taxes withheld and so on, every year.
That’s a terrible example because that’s strictly a US thing. In most place I have lived the government send you a pre-filled form and the only thing you have to do for your taxes is validate that the form is correct.
And to be fair I pretty much had the same experience with visa. As a European the last time I had to go to Canada everything was online, quick and easy. I think sadly the only reason it remains cumbersome to do if you are citizen of a poorer country is to dissuade people to actually come.
That’s a terrible example because that’s strictly a US thing. In most place I have lived the government send you a pre-filled form and the only thing you have to do for your taxes is validate that the form is correct.
And to be fair I pretty much had the same experience with visa. As a European the last time I had to go to Canada everything was online, quick and easy. I think sadly the only reason it remains cumbersome to do if you are citizen of a poorer country is to dissuade people to actually come.
Also it’s only a US thing because tax filing companies lobbied Congress to force the IRS not to do it. The IRS is doing it anyway so could easily send citizens a pre-filled form for 80%+ (at least?) of cases.
> Clearly you are not familiar with bureaucracies and how they grow. You do not need to file your taxes explicitly, or at any rate, rehash the information that's already known to the government, such as your taxes withheld and so on, every year. But if you do that, then a lot of people will lose their cushy government jobs, and vested interests, such as corporations and unions that feed at the government trough will end up on the losing side as well. That's why you end up doing these things repeatedly. Yes, there's software, but that is only an aid for the bureaucrats to do less actual work.
> Politicians are of course complicit and key enablers of these schemes. They gain leverage when this type of pork is in their constituencies.
This "bureaucratic inefficiency" strawman is conveniently brought to your by your local super-capitalist overlords[0], btw.
[1] https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f...
> Politicians are of course complicit and key enablers of these schemes. They gain leverage when this type of pork is in their constituencies.
This "bureaucratic inefficiency" strawman is conveniently brought to your by your local super-capitalist overlords[0], btw.
[1] https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f...
Humbug. It's not as if Unions are pure as the driven snow. They are also equally nefarious, perhaps more, considering that many of their heads have been repeatedly caught putting their hands in the till and many extract compulsory dues. The majority of the CA legislature is basically owned by the CTA, to such an extent that representatives literally await instructions on key votes from these people.
Foreigners don't vote, so there's little democratic incentive to treat them well. And if you need a visa, the country has already put you in the "undesirable" category (tourists from desirable nations can visit without visa).
This is the correct answer. The red tape seems to be a feature not a bug. I have first hand experience going through immigration/visa/crossing processes holding both Iranian and Canadian passports. The whole experience is vastly different between the two!
> little democratic incentive
No, democracy is just a buzzword. Its _political_ incentive. Just look at southern border. You can go to Mexico, pay some shady smuggler gangs decent sum of money and you can enter in US in no time. Same goes to those “humanitarian boat” arriving from Libya to Greece for EU.
At this point, illegal immigration is much easier than legal ways.
No, democracy is just a buzzword. Its _political_ incentive. Just look at southern border. You can go to Mexico, pay some shady smuggler gangs decent sum of money and you can enter in US in no time. Same goes to those “humanitarian boat” arriving from Libya to Greece for EU.
At this point, illegal immigration is much easier than legal ways.
Plus, for people from less desirable countries, a complicated visa process biases success towards people who have the resources to pay a firm to manage the process for them.
Why is the visa process so archaic? First of all, appointments are submitted via a third-party firm who doesn't have any information during or about the process, as in how long will it take or if there are any problems in general.
Secondly, you have to submit your passport and have them hold it for the duration of the process.
Thirdly, if you want your passport back it is a stressful experience and could sometimes only be if you want to cancel the entire visa process, losing the visa fees.
And lastly, it takes way too long during the best of times. Currently it is closer to the worst of times. See #1, where the entire process is very opaque and you don't know when you may get your passport back, with or without the visa.
Why isn't it an electronic process where you submit your documents and credentials online and get called in to an interview if necessary, and why does there need to be an actual physical visa stamp or sticker on the passport rather than an entry in their database so that you can be given entry and stamped on arrival?