Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE(headcrashing.wordpress.com)
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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE
https://headcrashing.wordpress.com/2019/05/03/negotiations-failed-how-oracle-killed-java-ee/
516 comments
Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind.
But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.
But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.
« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. »
I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle are taking note.
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/board-members/
I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle are taking note.
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/board-members/
I bet Oracle will have its MS pivot moment,
sooner that we think,
to face AWS, PostgreSQL, IBM/Red Hat, Pivotal Spring offers...
But it was a lot of time wasted:
Apache Harmony/Java
LibreOffice/OpenOffice
MariaDB/MySQL
Jenkins/Hudson
now Eclipse/Java
Right now, they are in sales hurry mode, calling at all occasions technical contacts each time you create a new account to download something on their web site...
...
https://netbeans.apache.org/
https://cloud.oracle.com/containers/kubernetes-engine
...
In O/WebLogic, javax.* imports are by default private.
Open9J vs Graal
https://github.com/eclipse/omr/issues/1118
But it was a lot of time wasted:
Apache Harmony/Java
LibreOffice/OpenOffice
MariaDB/MySQL
Jenkins/Hudson
now Eclipse/Java
Right now, they are in sales hurry mode, calling at all occasions technical contacts each time you create a new account to download something on their web site...
...
https://netbeans.apache.org/
https://cloud.oracle.com/containers/kubernetes-engine
...
In O/WebLogic, javax.* imports are by default private.
Open9J vs Graal
https://github.com/eclipse/omr/issues/1118
> the worst case possible, as it not only voids the “WORA” (Write Once Run Anywhere) principle, it simply won’t happen in reality: After 18 months virtually no application vendor really wants to spend the time and money to update all customers with recompiled versions just for the sake of a renamed platform with a dubios future.
WORA was never perfect, I would be surprised if there was even a single JRE release that didn't note a breaking change in its release notes. So vendors should have a process to update their releases just for that already in place.
> The future is unclear because Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed.
They have no rules to out board members acting in bad faith?
WORA was never perfect, I would be surprised if there was even a single JRE release that didn't note a breaking change in its release notes. So vendors should have a process to update their releases just for that already in place.
> The future is unclear because Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed.
They have no rules to out board members acting in bad faith?
Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.
>But once Eclipse products would be not vendor-neutral anymore, the EF’s tax exemption might become void, which would mean a financial fiasco, or possibly mean the end of the organization as a hole.
I think the problem is Oracle's a-hole, in this situation.
I think the problem is Oracle's a-hole, in this situation.
> And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous.
There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift.
This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Microsofts: Groovy, Scala and Clojure.
There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift.
This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Microsofts: Groovy, Scala and Clojure.
If I understand correctly, OpenJDK is licensed under GPL with classpath exception - and the only thing that is preventing openjdk from being unusable in any commercial settings is a few lines of legalese, controlled by Oracle, on handful of source files in various packages. If Oracle removes that classpath exception legalese in some upcoming jdk version from these source files (which they are fully in control of), openjdk essentially becomes GPL-only.
I guess then openj9, coretto etc would be more appealing but soon enough it feels like there will not be Java left - since those distributions don’t/can’t call themselves java unless oracle allows them to... and I’m not sure why they would - as apparent by OpenJ9 not being called java.
So is it Java EE is dead, soon followed by Java?
Am I mistaken about any of this?
I guess then openj9, coretto etc would be more appealing but soon enough it feels like there will not be Java left - since those distributions don’t/can’t call themselves java unless oracle allows them to... and I’m not sure why they would - as apparent by OpenJ9 not being called java.
So is it Java EE is dead, soon followed by Java?
Am I mistaken about any of this?
Oracle never fails to show off how evil they are.
To me this seems like a play against OpenJ9 which is at least partially based on OpenJDK. Rumor has it that AdoptOpenJDK lost their TCK license because they also published OpenJ9 builds.
I'm a bit surprised by this given that IBM is a long time license holder and I can remember JavaOne keynotes where Oracle celebrated IBM "joining" OpenJDK.
I'm a bit surprised by this given that IBM is a long time license holder and I can remember JavaOne keynotes where Oracle celebrated IBM "joining" OpenJDK.
Oracle fights with the open source community and loses, again. They just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over. What always happens is the Open Source people say "screw Oracle" and fork the project and the community comes along with them.
The Hudson/Jenkins and OpenOffice/LibreOffice fails were two of the quickest and most obvious. Java EE seems like the same sort of thing, but much bigger and in slow motion.
The Hudson/Jenkins and OpenOffice/LibreOffice fails were two of the quickest and most obvious. Java EE seems like the same sort of thing, but much bigger and in slow motion.
Oracle is a disease. Everywhere it spreads things get bad :/
Dumb question... Wouldn't it be possible to fork the namespace to something like javax -> jawax (or java->borneo as someone suggested) and then patch the JVM to alias the javax package to the would-be jawax package (or borneox or whatever) ?
(Not an expert on all the Java nomenclature / standards / politics)
What does Eclipse foundation have to do with Java EE? Does this news sabotage their use of OpenJ9 somehow?
What does Eclipse foundation have to do with Java EE? Does this news sabotage their use of OpenJ9 somehow?
Oracle is a cancer.
Android may get infected one day which is worrisome.
What about MySQL.
Google should have bought Sun in the first place, unfortunately all they could see is its searching with ads.
Google better buy Canonical now before Oracle or other evils do it.
Android may get infected one day which is worrisome.
What about MySQL.
Google should have bought Sun in the first place, unfortunately all they could see is its searching with ads.
Google better buy Canonical now before Oracle or other evils do it.
I propose to mimic the intended move of the Indonesian government to move the capitol from Java to Borneo by forking OpenJDK/Java to OpenBDK/Borneo.
If Oracle wants to keep the Java(tm) trademark, they can keep it.
Are new systems being constructed in Java .. when starting on new projects Java was at one time (about 6-8 years ago) the leading alternative for Corporate IT (if they weren't a Microsoft shop). I doubt it very much.
Oracle is playing this not-so-good role, that Microsoft used to play, under Steve Ballmer, monopolistic, and evil.
I found Java hideous, the gratuitous OOP taken to extremes put me off. Spring came in, and you had class names that were a hundred characters long - your actual line of code was shorter than the class name. The problem with Java (and every programming language has its own achilles heel) - is everything has be class oriented - however much you try to bolt on, on top of that , to make it seem not so. . Java kills creativity, and expressiveness in software by its bloated syntax and OOP. We took up Java because at the time alternatives were few, but now its on its way being the new Cobol - this will sound ridiculous if you still are fully or partially, inside its bubble
I ran from our Java shop. My software architect mocked me "you'll be back in 6 months" - instead, he quit the Java shop and stuck his head outside of the Java bubble and realized there was life outside.
Oracle is playing this not-so-good role, that Microsoft used to play, under Steve Ballmer, monopolistic, and evil.
I found Java hideous, the gratuitous OOP taken to extremes put me off. Spring came in, and you had class names that were a hundred characters long - your actual line of code was shorter than the class name. The problem with Java (and every programming language has its own achilles heel) - is everything has be class oriented - however much you try to bolt on, on top of that , to make it seem not so. . Java kills creativity, and expressiveness in software by its bloated syntax and OOP. We took up Java because at the time alternatives were few, but now its on its way being the new Cobol - this will sound ridiculous if you still are fully or partially, inside its bubble
I ran from our Java shop. My software architect mocked me "you'll be back in 6 months" - instead, he quit the Java shop and stuck his head outside of the Java bubble and realized there was life outside.
We all love Java, however we need to decouple the Language from the ecosystem that the new owner of Java, Oracle, wants to enforce upon customers.
Oracle made a clear business decision and will go forward squeeze every single dollar they possible can thru legal means, not from innovation or services.
Oracle made a clear business decision and will go forward squeeze every single dollar they possible can thru legal means, not from innovation or services.
how hard will it be to work out a script, that update the namespace automatically? it would even be possible to do that in the bytecode level I think.
I think Eclipse Foundation is f*cked, not by Oracle but its bureaucracy, and inability to reinvent itself.
I think Eclipse Foundation is f*cked, not by Oracle but its bureaucracy, and inability to reinvent itself.
.NET Core will welcome this round of Java orphans with open arms.
“Everywhere I go I’m asked if I think universities stifle writers. I think they don’t stifle enough of them"
--Flannery O'Conor.
Java EE and CORBA had to go. It didn't matter who pulled the plug.
--Flannery O'Conor.
Java EE and CORBA had to go. It didn't matter who pulled the plug.
The beauty of the JVM is that I could make a class loading agent that fixes 'the problem' of the package renaming at runtime.
heads over to Python :)
Is Java separate to Java EE? Does this news have any impact on Java in general?
Java would be better off if even Microsoft owned it.
I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc.
When I used to do Java, I always found that Spring was a much better framework than Java EE, and have used it in most projects I've worked.
Oracle did not take a note from the Microsoft book and is really behaving that an evil corporate overlord.
It's clear at this stage that they bought Sun in order to slowly turn Java proprietary, and charge billions to the companies that are now fully Java-based for the next few decades.
I'm glad I saw the writing on the wall and switched, but the problem is that Java is still being taught a lot at schools, and school programs especially universities are hard to adapt and only change every 4-5 years or so.