Coding Boot Camp Enrollment Soars as Students Seek Tech Jobs(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Coding Boot Camp Enrollment Soars as Students Seek Tech Jobs
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-08/coding-boot-camp-enrollment-soars-as-students-seek-tech-jobs
59 comments
You learn HTML, CSS, JavaScript, a MVC framework, Git, debugging, testing, some basics of product management, some basics of product marketing, in 3 months and they call you ready for a $85k+ job in Silicon Valley with a mid-sized business that lacks the resources to recruit like a big corporation and aren't as picky as a real startup that needs experience and skills.
You definitely can learn HTML, CSS, Javascript, MVC, git,... in 3 months if you only do that.
Ya, just pay $17k
> Got a CS degree a decade ago, haven't been able to find a programming jobs since (I don't know Java or C#, learned some esoteric languages called C and C++ nobody is hiring for.)
If you think that's important, why didn't you fix that in the mean time? Knowing nothing else about you, I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own..
If you think that's important, why didn't you fix that in the mean time? Knowing nothing else about you, I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own..
Fix it, how exactly? I've learned plenty of languages. That I can't get a job using since I have no work experience with them. What exactly do you mean by fix. If I could fix it.... it would be fixed. I've always been expected to learn everything on my own. I've worked on all my projects alone. I thought there would be other people who would want to work with me and who could teach me things.
> If you think that's important, why didn't you fix that in the mean time? Knowing nothing else about you, I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own..
Speaking as someone in a similar situation, even after I learn what I can, it's still difficult to get a job using the newer languages I've learned. I know that I don't know what I don't know; perhaps I'm missing something, but it's still difficult to convince employers to hire when you've got no experience.
Speaking as someone in a similar situation, even after I learn what I can, it's still difficult to get a job using the newer languages I've learned. I know that I don't know what I don't know; perhaps I'm missing something, but it's still difficult to convince employers to hire when you've got no experience.
Indeed. So all the talk about C and C++ vs Java and C# was just an excuse. I am willing to bet there are more excuses hiding.
By the way, I'm happy to give mock interviews and refer people to my employer.
By the way, I'm happy to give mock interviews and refer people to my employer.
> I am willing to bet there are more excuses hiding.
What you mean like people are assumptive jerks when I ask for help?
What you mean like people are assumptive jerks when I ask for help?
> Indeed. So all the talk about C and C++ vs Java and C# was just an excuse. I am willing to bet there are more excuses hiding.
Maybe. That was another poster, though. :) For me, I've spent most of my career fixing bugs. not much new code development. I'm trying to do more in that direction but I lack real honest development experience, even several years into it. I didn't even know design patterns were a thing until recently. shrug.
> By the way, I'm happy to give mock interviews and refer people to my employer.
I might do that. Thanks for the offer.
> I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own.. > ...was just an excuse. I am willing to bet there are more excuses hiding.
However, I get the impression you'd hate working with me or near me. I'm kind of slow; I have to take things in kind piece wise until I understand them. It appears to people on the outside that I am a dullard, I suspect. I try to work hard as I can, but people at Google, and you I bet, are smarter and harder working than me. :)
Maybe. That was another poster, though. :) For me, I've spent most of my career fixing bugs. not much new code development. I'm trying to do more in that direction but I lack real honest development experience, even several years into it. I didn't even know design patterns were a thing until recently. shrug.
> By the way, I'm happy to give mock interviews and refer people to my employer.
I might do that. Thanks for the offer.
> I'd be immediately put off by you not learning on your own.. > ...was just an excuse. I am willing to bet there are more excuses hiding.
However, I get the impression you'd hate working with me or near me. I'm kind of slow; I have to take things in kind piece wise until I understand them. It appears to people on the outside that I am a dullard, I suspect. I try to work hard as I can, but people at Google, and you I bet, are smarter and harder working than me. :)
I'm lucky that I'm good at technical interviews. That doesn't correlate very much with being an effective developer, but it gives a leg up in the job market. (And even somewhat makes up for dropping out of college.)
> I might do that. Thanks for the offer.
My email is in the profile.
> I might do that. Thanks for the offer.
My email is in the profile.
No experience? Make a portfolio of your work.
Look, you're selling yourself to the employer/HR. They want the lowest risk with highest upside they can get so they don't get fired for hiring you. If you throw a portfolio at them of good work, they can say, hey, this dude/dudette is a low risk bet. They've covered their ass and you're hired.
Look, you're selling yourself to the employer/HR. They want the lowest risk with highest upside they can get so they don't get fired for hiring you. If you throw a portfolio at them of good work, they can say, hey, this dude/dudette is a low risk bet. They've covered their ass and you're hired.
> No experience? Make a portfolio of your work.
Yes, I've been doing that. I get close to getting hired often this year but they usually find some reason to not hire me. "We think you're a great hire, a really smart person, but ..."
Anyways, having a portfolio is no guarantee, or even a help. The only time people really look at it is if they are already close to hiring you. As in, they really, really want to but there's something else stopping them. Other than that, no one looks at a portfolio.
A good github will not save me, maybe not help me, but can definitely hurt me if they don't like what they see.
I was already told by one potential employer that some code I had written in a pinch for a project looked wrong so no hire.
Yes, I've been doing that. I get close to getting hired often this year but they usually find some reason to not hire me. "We think you're a great hire, a really smart person, but ..."
Anyways, having a portfolio is no guarantee, or even a help. The only time people really look at it is if they are already close to hiring you. As in, they really, really want to but there's something else stopping them. Other than that, no one looks at a portfolio.
A good github will not save me, maybe not help me, but can definitely hurt me if they don't like what they see.
I was already told by one potential employer that some code I had written in a pinch for a project looked wrong so no hire.
Curate your portfolio, show only your best work.
The best case would be to have experience, without that you need a portfolio. But as you have seen, the portfolio is only to get you through the filter to an interview seat. Then it's up to you to sell yourself and your skills.
The best case would be to have experience, without that you need a portfolio. But as you have seen, the portfolio is only to get you through the filter to an interview seat. Then it's up to you to sell yourself and your skills.
> Curate your portfolio, show only your best work.
You say these things like I hadn't thought of them. :p :)
You say these things like I hadn't thought of them. :p :)
> Got a CS degree a decade ago, haven't been able to find a programming jobs since (I don't know Java or C#, learned some esoteric languages called C and C++ nobody is hiring for.)
I am really sorry to have to say this but if after a decade and not able to land a programming job, it is probably not your technical skills holding you back. Getting through bootcamp may not help at all.
Again, really sorry to have to say it
I am really sorry to have to say this but if after a decade and not able to land a programming job, it is probably not your technical skills holding you back. Getting through bootcamp may not help at all.
Again, really sorry to have to say it
What are programmers supposed to do, then?? I can't get a job in food service. Are we just supposed to... fade away.
Why did I take two years of Calculus in high school and then take college CS courses before I graduated? This is a serious question.
Why did I take two years of Calculus in high school and then take college CS courses before I graduated? This is a serious question.
Why don't you publicised your work to get it better known, even sharing a link here might help?
I would say to request some frank and honest questions from your family and close friends about your job situation, and act upon them. Not that I am saying you are not doing them, but you have to act upon them, that is the real key.
email in my profile if you want to connect more.
edit: clarity and grammar.
I would say to request some frank and honest questions from your family and close friends about your job situation, and act upon them. Not that I am saying you are not doing them, but you have to act upon them, that is the real key.
email in my profile if you want to connect more.
edit: clarity and grammar.
> esoteric languages called C and C++ nobody is hiring for
I find it hard to believe that.
I find it hard to believe that.
Where do you live? I've seen quite a few c++ jobs. If you've written a networking stack and a raytracer, it's the kind of high-performance code HFT firms are looking for. And they're all after c++. And then there's a lot of embedded jobs that might also be after that.
Also Java and c# would be pretty easy to pick up if you already have c++.
What have you been doing in the meantime?
Also Java and c# would be pretty easy to pick up if you already have c++.
What have you been doing in the meantime?
There are very few entry level jobs for C and C++ programmers from what I see. The people looking for C++ programmers tend to have hard problems and are looking for really good programmers.
It's much easier finding entry level jobs if you know Javascript/Java/Ruby etc.
It's much easier finding entry level jobs if you know Javascript/Java/Ruby etc.
Does anyone have an idea of what the dropout rate is for the typical bootcamp program? Seems like it would be hard to accurately measure, but perhaps there's an "industry insider" lurking around here.
This depends significantly by program but at AppAcademy the attrition rate was around ~6%.
In my cohort our attrition rate was 16%, but I think ours was unusually high.
I'm pretty happy with a/A though. I can't speak for every program, but it seems we cover a lot more than most. That said, I think people need to come into it with more to be successful - I know other programs take folks with absolutely zero experience.
Only a few of us had any kind of CS background though. I was one of another 16% in my cohort who had any idea about different data structures, Big O, etc.
I'm pretty happy with a/A though. I can't speak for every program, but it seems we cover a lot more than most. That said, I think people need to come into it with more to be successful - I know other programs take folks with absolutely zero experience.
Only a few of us had any kind of CS background though. I was one of another 16% in my cohort who had any idea about different data structures, Big O, etc.
I'd say it's about 1 in 20.
What I'd like to know is where the graduates from 3-month programs are working, it seems like the vast majority of job postings I come across look for only mid-level or senior engineers.
You can only get away with hiring juniors is you're very big or very small - between the two the overhead of training someone up is a significant short term burden.
This could be selection bias: companies have other channels to acquire junior engineers, so they don't advertise these positions.
Startups, Web-Design boutique/consulting, freelance/contract. Less likely the big guys (Google, MS, Apple, Amazon).
Yes majority in local consultancies and small startups, but generally anywhere: Facebook, google, linkedin, paypal, square, tumblr [1], thoughtbot, pivotal, artsy, betterment
1: http://www.appacademy.io/
1: http://www.appacademy.io/
I'd like to know this too. The few places I've worked that hired from these schools quickly let folks go and never went back.
I know a few left tech altogether.
I know a few left tech altogether.
I'm more curious about what's generally covered in the curriculum. Three months doesn't seem like enough time to learn much in depth, even if you're a total workaholic.
The basics and that's about it. IMHO, these schools do a very big disservice to the people they pretend to help. I think it's particularly bad for woman and under represented groups looking to springboard into technology, as it sets an unreal expectation.
16K is roughly the number of university CS graduates the US produces in a year. Holy crap. See http://cra.org/resources/taulbee/
[Emphasis added]
"William Dembinski, 24,...will pay $17,780 to take classes six days a week, 11 hours a day for three months."
" Dembinski said. “That type of mentality is healthy, and I want to be pushed.”"
A little scary.
"William Dembinski, 24,...will pay $17,780 to take classes six days a week, 11 hours a day for three months."
" Dembinski said. “That type of mentality is healthy, and I want to be pushed.”"
A little scary.
The guy is 24, ambitious and perhaps a bit desperate. Given the choice of call-centre/fast food jobs or a three month grind I would have preferred the boot-camp.
Now the costs are just crazy, for that kind of money you could get a bachelor degree in Europe.
Now the costs are just crazy, for that kind of money you could get a bachelor degree in Europe.
>>Now the costs are just crazy, for that kind of money you could get a bachelor degree in Europe.
I think the point is that bachelor's degrees are not very useful these days in terms of getting a high-paying job. That's what is attracting people to these boot camps.
I think the point is that bachelor's degrees are not very useful these days in terms of getting a high-paying job. That's what is attracting people to these boot camps.
Also, the bachelor degree takes longer.
"That type of mentality is healthy"
He doesn't say something along the lines of "yeah, it will be a tough grind but there's light at the end of the tunnel", he seems to accept that's just how things are and what you do.
He doesn't say something along the lines of "yeah, it will be a tough grind but there's light at the end of the tunnel", he seems to accept that's just how things are and what you do.
What's scary is that in 2004 and 2005 less than 50% of these people got jobs by the time they graduated college and the economy has never picked them up. We're told we don't deserve jobs after all our hard work. We're just supposed to keep waiting... and waiting...
Sometimes there is just a surplus of people. Besides, 50% of graduates being hireable sounds just about right.
Depending on the school of economics you subscribe to, there should never be a surplus of people. I mean, just go outside and have a look at the streets: if you don't live in Singapore, there's plenty of work to do even just cleaning them up. We could pay people to do that.
Ah the Keynesian solution of paying half the unemployed to dig ditches and then pay the other half to fill them up.
This is absolutely awful news. This should be on the front page of CNN in big bold letters: The Department of Education and post-secondary institutions are both utterly and completely failing students in their curriculum.
We teach roughly 400,000 high school students AP calculus every year. [0] How many of them go on to use it in their daily life? Meanwhile, we teach 1/10th as many students AP computer science. [1]
You might note from reading this article that these camps aren't cheap, meaning that the type of people who can afford to make up for the shortcomings by their schools are rich kids who probably went to ivy league schools anyway[2], or people in the middle of their career realizing their career prospects are limited.
I might also state, though I'm not bothered to look up statistics for it, that I believe the demographics of highschools offering AP-CS and AP-Calc are probably mostly districts from upper middle class communities. In other words, rich kids.
The take away from that is that the DoE and colleges aren't just failing the disadvantaged here, like they always have. They're even failing the rich kids! \gasp\
There are two huge causes of this, IMHO:
* Colleges are privatized luxury camps rather than places to get an education. I go to UW-Madison. Our CS chair just left because the state is defunding UW schools and he got an offer elsewhere with more security.
Meanwhile, our out of state tuition is likely to double in price. But that's okay, they'll still pay. After all, we're spending $200M[3] on new flashy gyms. Look how much fun they're having! Fuck job security, I want that! [4]
* DoE and colleges are not nearly responsive enough to the changing job environment. Too afraid to make a leap. Too broke to make a leap. I'm not sure if the answer is common core or not. But I know whatever we're doing now is completely failing.
It's going to be absolutely brutal. If the US wants to remain anywhere near the top of the world, we better start making some mind-blowing startups, because the effect of this isn't a matter of if, it's when.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Calculus
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Computer_Science
[2]: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/coding-cla...
[3]: http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/pat_schneider/uw-...
[4]: http://www.kahlerslater.com/expertise/recreation-wellness/un...
We teach roughly 400,000 high school students AP calculus every year. [0] How many of them go on to use it in their daily life? Meanwhile, we teach 1/10th as many students AP computer science. [1]
You might note from reading this article that these camps aren't cheap, meaning that the type of people who can afford to make up for the shortcomings by their schools are rich kids who probably went to ivy league schools anyway[2], or people in the middle of their career realizing their career prospects are limited.
I might also state, though I'm not bothered to look up statistics for it, that I believe the demographics of highschools offering AP-CS and AP-Calc are probably mostly districts from upper middle class communities. In other words, rich kids.
The take away from that is that the DoE and colleges aren't just failing the disadvantaged here, like they always have. They're even failing the rich kids! \gasp\
There are two huge causes of this, IMHO:
* Colleges are privatized luxury camps rather than places to get an education. I go to UW-Madison. Our CS chair just left because the state is defunding UW schools and he got an offer elsewhere with more security.
Meanwhile, our out of state tuition is likely to double in price. But that's okay, they'll still pay. After all, we're spending $200M[3] on new flashy gyms. Look how much fun they're having! Fuck job security, I want that! [4]
* DoE and colleges are not nearly responsive enough to the changing job environment. Too afraid to make a leap. Too broke to make a leap. I'm not sure if the answer is common core or not. But I know whatever we're doing now is completely failing.
It's going to be absolutely brutal. If the US wants to remain anywhere near the top of the world, we better start making some mind-blowing startups, because the effect of this isn't a matter of if, it's when.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Calculus
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Computer_Science
[2]: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-07/coding-cla...
[3]: http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/pat_schneider/uw-...
[4]: http://www.kahlerslater.com/expertise/recreation-wellness/un...
> How many of them go on to use it in their daily life?
> Meanwhile, we teach 1/10th as many students AP computer
> science.
How many of them will use brains in their daily life? And why do you want everybody to be a programmer?
How many of them will use brains in their daily life? And why do you want everybody to be a programmer?
I feel you've missed my point. I don't want everyone to be a software engineer.
> How many of them will use brains in their daily life?
I'm not saying that mathematics isn't worth learning. I'm just saying that there are obvious gaps in our education system. Clearly, by the article, people are coming out of 4 year schools wishing they had some background in it. I think everyone should be able to program in the same sense that everyone can do algebra. And I believe the blame for that not being the case falls squarely on the DoE and universities.
> How many of them will use brains in their daily life?
I'm not saying that mathematics isn't worth learning. I'm just saying that there are obvious gaps in our education system. Clearly, by the article, people are coming out of 4 year schools wishing they had some background in it. I think everyone should be able to program in the same sense that everyone can do algebra. And I believe the blame for that not being the case falls squarely on the DoE and universities.
I was thinking of starting a coding boot camp because I love programming and I love to teach.
So my question is, what do people look for in coding boot camps? What do they expect from them?
So my question is, what do people look for in coding boot camps? What do they expect from them?
[deleted]
A coding bootcamp is basically a vocational program. Grads are looking to get placed in web developer roles so that's what their metric of success - can graduates get junior web roles?
I've been helping out a friend with an app MVP, and he's found a lady to supplement the dev team from a bootcamp.
- She told me most of the people dropped out. Only a handful managed to actually finish the course.
- She's an ex designer with iOS experience, so that makes it easier.
- She's got a job already. Had to cross the US, but she was being wooed by a number of firms.
- She knows the tools. XCode, Git, SourceTree. Cuts down intro time by a lot.
- She's pretty good at the work (very keen as well), but not experienced. Anything I show her, she seems to understand. Basically it looks like they've given her a good practical foundation, but not a whole lot of breadth (how could you in such a short space?). So she's seen all the internal bits of iOS and can start hacking at our app, but if I go through the big-O of an algo (which actually came up), it might take a while to sink in.
Comparing this to my brother, a CS undergrad from an Ivy, it's like he's got the theoretical foundations, but not a lot of the practical side. To actually be productive, you need to spend time on things like version control, and the specifics of various languages and IDEs. He does come across these things, but it appears to be incidental. Yet there's so much work on these courses, the sheer volume of practical things will probably add up.
- She told me most of the people dropped out. Only a handful managed to actually finish the course.
- She's an ex designer with iOS experience, so that makes it easier.
- She's got a job already. Had to cross the US, but she was being wooed by a number of firms.
- She knows the tools. XCode, Git, SourceTree. Cuts down intro time by a lot.
- She's pretty good at the work (very keen as well), but not experienced. Anything I show her, she seems to understand. Basically it looks like they've given her a good practical foundation, but not a whole lot of breadth (how could you in such a short space?). So she's seen all the internal bits of iOS and can start hacking at our app, but if I go through the big-O of an algo (which actually came up), it might take a while to sink in.
Comparing this to my brother, a CS undergrad from an Ivy, it's like he's got the theoretical foundations, but not a lot of the practical side. To actually be productive, you need to spend time on things like version control, and the specifics of various languages and IDEs. He does come across these things, but it appears to be incidental. Yet there's so much work on these courses, the sheer volume of practical things will probably add up.
I guess my main query here is who is actually going to be hiring these people.
As I see it, there are two "camps" of coders - those who code because they love to code and to solve problems, and those who code because it's a job.
The former solve problems, not because the boss is breathing down their neck but because the problem is interesting, and they will learn whatever needs to be learned to solve the problem. The latter look at a problem and go "but I wasn't taught this!", and despair.
Yes, those are hyperbolic examples, but are very real phenomena - we employ a lot of developers, and the ones who stick around are all from the former camp - the latter tend to wash out during probation.
I'm not at all saying that more people shouldn't learn to code, however I am saying that people who are learning to code because it's a career rather than as a vocation aren't doing themselves too many favours, as I would (and will) argue that the mentality of "how does this work? Don't know. I'll find out!" is absolutely core to being a coder, and those who have this mentality tend to gravitate towards code and other similar disciplines naturally.
There is of course the segment which comprises people with the aforementioned nous but who haven't had the opportunity to explore it, and these are the people for whom bootcamps are likely a brilliant idea, and a great bootstrap up into the industry - and I suppose this is reflected by the apparently very high drop-out rate seen.
As I see it, there are two "camps" of coders - those who code because they love to code and to solve problems, and those who code because it's a job.
The former solve problems, not because the boss is breathing down their neck but because the problem is interesting, and they will learn whatever needs to be learned to solve the problem. The latter look at a problem and go "but I wasn't taught this!", and despair.
Yes, those are hyperbolic examples, but are very real phenomena - we employ a lot of developers, and the ones who stick around are all from the former camp - the latter tend to wash out during probation.
I'm not at all saying that more people shouldn't learn to code, however I am saying that people who are learning to code because it's a career rather than as a vocation aren't doing themselves too many favours, as I would (and will) argue that the mentality of "how does this work? Don't know. I'll find out!" is absolutely core to being a coder, and those who have this mentality tend to gravitate towards code and other similar disciplines naturally.
There is of course the segment which comprises people with the aforementioned nous but who haven't had the opportunity to explore it, and these are the people for whom bootcamps are likely a brilliant idea, and a great bootstrap up into the industry - and I suppose this is reflected by the apparently very high drop-out rate seen.
I love to code and solve problems and have been programming as a hobby since I was 6.
I followed a different career path (systems administration & support) and at 30 decided to change careers and develop software. I had to learn how to write better software to go after the work and the problems that I'm really interested in. I feel that writing software should be a means to an end.
Because of this, I made the decision to go through a coding bootcamp and look for a job. I'm not alone here, but you're right that a lot of folks are looking for a paycheck.
I see a lot of folks on this board write off bootcamps entirely (though it seems to be swinging the other way). It's a little disheartening.
I followed a different career path (systems administration & support) and at 30 decided to change careers and develop software. I had to learn how to write better software to go after the work and the problems that I'm really interested in. I feel that writing software should be a means to an end.
Because of this, I made the decision to go through a coding bootcamp and look for a job. I'm not alone here, but you're right that a lot of folks are looking for a paycheck.
I see a lot of folks on this board write off bootcamps entirely (though it seems to be swinging the other way). It's a little disheartening.
Yeah, I definitely don't write them off, but I will usually probe a bit harder about a candidate's motivation if they've gone through one.
You sound like you're doing it for all the right reasons!
You sound like you're doing it for all the right reasons!
This is just the beginning of the commoditisation of the average developer's skillset.
In the 20th century organisations employed hundreds of clerks to keep their operations running smoothly. Now we pay them slightly more and call them programmers.
Either skill up significantly to work at a top tier company or take up something boot camp proof like Medicine , Law etc.
In the 20th century organisations employed hundreds of clerks to keep their operations running smoothly. Now we pay them slightly more and call them programmers.
Either skill up significantly to work at a top tier company or take up something boot camp proof like Medicine , Law etc.
> below average...
So what do they have to you at bootcamps that is so special?