The prisoners trying to code their way to a better life(bbc.com)
bbc.com
The prisoners trying to code their way to a better life
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31359126
13 comments
Honest question: why were you hired?
I actually think this is a great idea. While it is true they likely wouldn't be able to find a job in the industry with this training, I am sure some of them will come out with enough skill to do things like bid on freelance projects on elance.com.
It really doesn't take a lot of projects to make equivalent and greater money then the type of minimum wage or manual labor jobs many ex-cons would end up working instead (or even petty crime).
It really doesn't take a lot of projects to make equivalent and greater money then the type of minimum wage or manual labor jobs many ex-cons would end up working instead (or even petty crime).
I think it's a great idea too. If the programme was good enough, they might be able to find jobs in the industry. Consider if:
- They have 10,000 hours experience
- They have StackOverflow and Kahn Academy and MIT access
- They speak English as a first language (likely in the US)
I'd pay someone like that.
- They have 10,000 hours experience
- They have StackOverflow and Kahn Academy and MIT access
- They speak English as a first language (likely in the US)
I'd pay someone like that.
Well, finally. I mean, prisoners are kept without computers in their jail cells usually, bored out of their minds. Instead, they could be reformed by giving them useful work!
My brother is in prison until 2018 on drug related charges. He was transferred to a for profit prison that has a reputation for gang violence, but fortunately all the non violent offenders from the state he was transferred from are kept in a separate wing. He has an Xbox One and gets to play games all day. He also reads a lot and works out. He works 40 hours a week and that pays him about $9/wk. They won't let them have computers, let alone internet access. I wish they would. It's strange what they can and can't have. They can buy a Nintendo 3DS but can't buy any games for it. I wonder who came up with that one.
It's truly ridiculous. Finland has much less recidivism: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why...
Wow, learning to code without being able to refer to stackoverflow or anything on the internet... does that count as cruel and unusual punishment?
It's how I learned to code. You depend on good documentation much more - though offline documentation used to be better, these days you're lucky if you get more than the source.
It also makes you more independent when debugging issues no-one else online has seen. You become unafraid of digging into the next level down to find out what's going on.
It also makes you more independent when debugging issues no-one else online has seen. You become unafraid of digging into the next level down to find out what's going on.
Same. I learned from library books w/o Internet.
I learned with the assistance of StackOverflow and Google-Fu for blogs and things, but now in work we use a handful of propitiatory libraries, with no information available online for them, and now have to work with only the documentation (and granted, direct support if I need it). It's really made me a better developer to default to the Docs rather than SO.
> these days you're lucky if you get more than the source.
We don't need no docstrings, the source should be self documenting!
/s
We don't need no docstrings, the source should be self documenting!
/s
You kids have it far too easy :)
I started learning about C from books long before I ever had access to a C compiler.
I started learning about C from books long before I ever had access to a C compiler.
Its a perfectly valid way of learning to code. In fact, there is much to be said for those who make the effort to be productive without needing to refer to external sources for assistance - this truly is a valid way to do computers. I've forced myself to go off-line for many a debug/coding marathon, and it really works the more you do it. Of course its hard, or else it wouldn't be worth doing. The more you do it though, the easier it gets.
Another thing about having a sources-only, no "google-fu" possible/only "local-scope-fu" policy, is that it tends to defeat the cruft. The bloat. The near-infinite gooze that I just know will be the inevitable subject of the response: "software is too complicated for one person to know everything about it, there's just too much of it, etc."
(Of course, its a scope issue. You mathematicians need not flame me in response. I know you don't need to know how to write a compiler to get real work done. There are no absolutes; that is as true of software, unfortunately or fortunately, as everything else..)
Another thing about having a sources-only, no "google-fu" possible/only "local-scope-fu" policy, is that it tends to defeat the cruft. The bloat. The near-infinite gooze that I just know will be the inevitable subject of the response: "software is too complicated for one person to know everything about it, there's just too much of it, etc."
(Of course, its a scope issue. You mathematicians need not flame me in response. I know you don't need to know how to write a compiler to get real work done. There are no absolutes; that is as true of software, unfortunately or fortunately, as everything else..)
I know you're joking, but to put how progressive the program is in context: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/02/12/south_car...
Gotta agree, all I was thinking while reading it was that it sounds like a wonderful program. :)
Some of us are old enough that that IS how we learned to code, before most people had heard or had access to the internet! Of course, we weren't learning how to code for the web.
If anyone has information on how to help with or reach out to this or similar programs, please post what you've got!
[Edit] Here's an article with more comprehensive information, including the program's origins and the organizations behind it: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/how-18-inmates-at...
[Edit] Here's an article with more comprehensive information, including the program's origins and the organizations behind it: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/how-18-inmates-at...
> San Quentin state prison in California has begun a ground-breaking programme to teach prisoners how to code.
What is so ground-breaking on that? Any normal country will some sort of education to their prisoners.
What is so ground-breaking on that? Any normal country will some sort of education to their prisoners.
In most U.S. prisons, prisoners are denied access to computers at all, and especially to the internet, as a general principle.
As of a couple years ago, there is a program that offers monitored email to some prisoners in U.S. prisons. Email only.
Not only are there no educational programs involving computers, but prisoners are specifically disallowed from using computers for purposes like learning to code.
Now, I'm not saying the U.S. is a "normal country".
As of a couple years ago, there is a program that offers monitored email to some prisoners in U.S. prisons. Email only.
Not only are there no educational programs involving computers, but prisoners are specifically disallowed from using computers for purposes like learning to code.
Now, I'm not saying the U.S. is a "normal country".
This is great, but there is a much greater need, simple literacy.
http://www.invisiblechildren.org/2010/11/18/75-of-inmates-ar...
There is one path for HackReactor to make money on this, they can act as recruiters between prisoners and companies.
I know as an employer of developers, that I would hire someone with a felony because I know their introductory salary will be lower but their skill set should be the same. Which may sound over opportunistic, but it's just economics, fewer offers mean lower initial pay. The downside is if they become excellent developers it'll be hard to keep them at the lower salary, even if they do have a felony.
I know as an employer of developers, that I would hire someone with a felony because I know their introductory salary will be lower but their skill set should be the same. Which may sound over opportunistic, but it's just economics, fewer offers mean lower initial pay. The downside is if they become excellent developers it'll be hard to keep them at the lower salary, even if they do have a felony.
Probably true, but I don't think the motivation on this is for Hack Reactor to make money... there would be much easier ways to make money that don't involve prisoners if that's what they were after.
Except that - if I understand how US justice system works correctly - they won't be hired by anyone because they have a sentence in their books. Which is awful.
There isn't a law that says you can't hire felons as programmers, but there is a stigma. In some industries, such as banking or military contractors, there are probably regulations that would prevent felons from being hired.
As a felon, I was rejected from an internship at IBM, but I was able to get hired at startup-type companies.
As a felon, I was rejected from an internship at IBM, but I was able to get hired at startup-type companies.
The justice system in the US isn't really in play with people after they've done their time; when you're done you're done. However, the US civilian culture is different and the catch is that few US states' laws put any limit on discriminating against people with felony convictions, whether it be for a home today, a loan tomorrow, or a job fifty years later.
Over the past twenty years, I've been told by many folks in the US tech industry holding unskilled positions that non-white-collar convicts should never be given jobs again, should do all their time in solitary, shouldn't have books or access to entertainment, or should be beaten with stones or bats (and a few variations on this theme of torture-as-penance, always by women oddly.) Regardless of whether those attitudes are right or wrong, it's important to understand they are there and seem to be commonly held by the folks standing at the gates. And, for people who've committed felonies and done their time to understand they can either get very creative in how they adapt, or reoffend.
To bring this rambling back to the topic at hand: can "felons" get a tech job? Sure, but it's unlikely where those attitudes have had time to become invisibly entrenched, e.g., in human resources' workflow. So, as another poster said, startups are a real possibility. But really, any company where paperwork or blind-policy isn't in play--especially as a first step, e.g., a cookie-cutter job application--is a possibility. Another approach is to create the job, something almost uniquely possible in tech.
In short, it's tough, doable, and I think great because people can use it to walk far from the scenery of recidivism, figuratively and literally.
Over the past twenty years, I've been told by many folks in the US tech industry holding unskilled positions that non-white-collar convicts should never be given jobs again, should do all their time in solitary, shouldn't have books or access to entertainment, or should be beaten with stones or bats (and a few variations on this theme of torture-as-penance, always by women oddly.) Regardless of whether those attitudes are right or wrong, it's important to understand they are there and seem to be commonly held by the folks standing at the gates. And, for people who've committed felonies and done their time to understand they can either get very creative in how they adapt, or reoffend.
To bring this rambling back to the topic at hand: can "felons" get a tech job? Sure, but it's unlikely where those attitudes have had time to become invisibly entrenched, e.g., in human resources' workflow. So, as another poster said, startups are a real possibility. But really, any company where paperwork or blind-policy isn't in play--especially as a first step, e.g., a cookie-cutter job application--is a possibility. Another approach is to create the job, something almost uniquely possible in tech.
In short, it's tough, doable, and I think great because people can use it to walk far from the scenery of recidivism, figuratively and literally.
Are you talking about the social stigma or is there something in the law that makes it difficult for ex-convicts to find jobs?
There was an article on HN recently about someone who had a Masters Degree in computer science + very good qualifications, interviewed successfully for several companies,but they all refused after they have found out he spent a year in jail for a non-violent offence.
Felons are required to disclose on their job applications that they have a prior felony, and what it was they did. This has the effect of making it extremely difficult for them to find work, especially in white collar industries.
Edit: Apparently I am wrong, they aren't technically required to disclose it. However, in practice, every job application I have ever seen has had the question.
Edit: Apparently I am wrong, they aren't technically required to disclose it. However, in practice, every job application I have ever seen has had the question.
That is incorrect. There is nothing in the law requiring felons to disclose this. Some employers might ask, and perform their own background checks based on public information.
In fact it's actually illegal in several states (MN is one) to ask about it on job applications.
I'm from MN and every job application I've ever filled out in my life asked if I was a convicted felon. Including the job I'm at now.
It is a new law that just passed last year, and I'm not sure if it has taken effect yet.
I just read up on that, and looks like they did just pass a law that they can't ask you on the initial application, but then can weed you out later. IMO that's a horrible law that will end up costing businesses a lot of money, and not help felons get a job at all. If I run a business and I have a policy of not hiring felons, I should be able to weed them out in the initial application phase.
None of the tech jobs I came across asked if I had a felony. They all just asked applicants to send a cover letter and resume.
they won't be hired by anyone because they have a sentence in their books
I think you meant that some people prefers not to hire them, which drives their prospective wages down and, in turn, makes them more attractive candidates to people will hire them, like me.
I think you meant that some people prefers not to hire them, which drives their prospective wages down and, in turn, makes them more attractive candidates to people will hire them, like me.
Nothing like taking advantage of someone who has nothing to lose, I mean - what could possibly go wrong.
This is a weird comment for a couple of reasons:
First, because it reads like a tacit threat - even if you aren't personally a convicted felon, anyone reading this might find themselves less willing to even consider someone who is.
Second, people adjust their expected salary expenditures on any number of qualities and characteristics. It's not "taking advantage" of someone any more than paying a junior developer less than a senior developer. There's increased risk - real and/or perceived - involved in hiring someone who has had difficulty staying within the confines of the law.
First, because it reads like a tacit threat - even if you aren't personally a convicted felon, anyone reading this might find themselves less willing to even consider someone who is.
Second, people adjust their expected salary expenditures on any number of qualities and characteristics. It's not "taking advantage" of someone any more than paying a junior developer less than a senior developer. There's increased risk - real and/or perceived - involved in hiring someone who has had difficulty staying within the confines of the law.
It's simply common sense - if you're going to hire someone, you should pay them the same amount, within reason, as any other qualified person on your team.
"There's increased risk - real and/or perceived - involved in hiring someone who has had difficulty staying within the confines of the law."
This is the same argument banks make when they jack some single mother's interest rate to 39% when she misses a payment on her credit card. It has nothing to do with risk, and everything to do with seizing an opportunity to take advantage of someone.
If you're going to help someone return to society, then you ought to pay them in the same range as everyone else on your team. That - is just good business.
"There's increased risk - real and/or perceived - involved in hiring someone who has had difficulty staying within the confines of the law."
This is the same argument banks make when they jack some single mother's interest rate to 39% when she misses a payment on her credit card. It has nothing to do with risk, and everything to do with seizing an opportunity to take advantage of someone.
If you're going to help someone return to society, then you ought to pay them in the same range as everyone else on your team. That - is just good business.
"This is the same argument banks make when they jack some single mother's interest rate to 39% when she misses a payment on her credit card. It has nothing to do with risk, and everything to do with seizing an opportunity to take advantage of someone."
This does a poor job of extending your argument. That's an explicitly defined and agreed-upon contract between the issuer and the recipient of the credit card.
Maybe we have very different interpretations of what "taking advantage" means. To me, that pivots heavily on shared or expressed understanding.
This does a poor job of extending your argument. That's an explicitly defined and agreed-upon contract between the issuer and the recipient of the credit card.
Maybe we have very different interpretations of what "taking advantage" means. To me, that pivots heavily on shared or expressed understanding.
So, you think that everyone in a company should be paid roughly the same wage, regardless of their job, experience, or qualifications? Are you sure you don't want to take a moment and rethink that?
Jack, you're way too intelligent to pretend that you don't understand what I'm talking about here.
"if you're going to hire someone, you should pay them the same amount, within reason, as any other qualified person on your team"
Is that not what you said above?
Is that not what you said above?
If you think that a voluntary exchange for mutual gain is "taking advantage of someone" then I honestly feel sorry for you.
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I think that's the same thing people say when they pay African Americans less money too.
Non sequitur. African Americans are a protected class, so paying them less is against Federal law.
>Non sequitur. African Americans are a protected class, so paying them less is against Federal law.
But, you have no moral issue with such practices?
Being restrained only by the limits of federal law is essentially a sociopathic value system. Bigoted behavior didn't become wrong because of various legislative changes in the 60s. It was already wrong, as is systematically underpaying former criminals who have already served their time.
It's also worth pointing out that this country imprisons millions of non-violent offenders, and those people are disproportionately likely to be black and male.
But, you have no moral issue with such practices?
Being restrained only by the limits of federal law is essentially a sociopathic value system. Bigoted behavior didn't become wrong because of various legislative changes in the 60s. It was already wrong, as is systematically underpaying former criminals who have already served their time.
It's also worth pointing out that this country imprisons millions of non-violent offenders, and those people are disproportionately likely to be black and male.
They'll go back to prison and quite possibly never be employed again. For starters.
Yep, about half of ex-cons end up back in the joint.
And this is all the more reason, if you're going to hire someone with a criminal record, to try and treat them with the same respect you'd treat any other employee. For the very fact that many of them get treated so poorly when they get out that it makes just as much sense to go back in.
And this is all the more reason, if you're going to hire someone with a criminal record, to try and treat them with the same respect you'd treat any other employee. For the very fact that many of them get treated so poorly when they get out that it makes just as much sense to go back in.
Yeah, that's an enormous "if". Nearly every job I've held since college involved passing a criminal background check as a prerequisite for employment.
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Maybe they could get work via odesk or a similar site?
I had the idea of wanting to teach programming in a prison, but it seemed to have the same requirements as teaching anywhere else: a degree, preferably in education, preferably a master's. I'm self taught and don't have a degree, so it sounds like it's not really an option for me. Does anyone have more information about how one would go about doing this, perhaps on a volunteer basis?
one of the best programmers i've ever worked with spent his time teaching himself php. he was a bright kid who made a stupid decision, but didnt let that stop him. we worked together for about 2 years and he ended up getting a couple great offers and now balls way, way harder than me. i have so much respect for him.
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Maybe The Mafia, or some other criminal organization could sponsor this training. This way they could create a nice, steady pool of applicants for the White Collar Crime Division :)
EDIT: I guess a new account can't comment more than once (makes sense) so I'd like to address the background check issue: I've had numerous jobs, where I disclosed honestly. My felony was a very serious one.
Now I'm quite successful (making well over market; a regular poster on HN; throwaway account is obvious). I recently hired a released inmate who I knew could code though he hadn't ever really done it (he showed me some code he wrote down in TI-BASIC). This guy was locked up 15 years, but within a few months, he's learning as fast or faster than any random person.