Ask HN: How do you rent apartments in SF when self-employed?
41 comments
I've never run into any kind of problem like that here in SF. I do find that landlords say they "need" all of these crazy things but in reality all they care about is a deposit and first month's rent. The first person to hand that to them will get the apartment.
I spent a whole month looking for apartments the old fashioned way when I first moved to SF - filling out applications, sending in credit repots, dealing with the unreasonable requirements landlords put up. Finally got tired, when I was looking at a house said "I can give you a check for the deposit now" -- suddenly all his requirements went away and I had a place.
UPDATE: Forgot to mention, I was self employed up until about a month ago, and have been during all my landlord negotiations here in SF.
I spent a whole month looking for apartments the old fashioned way when I first moved to SF - filling out applications, sending in credit repots, dealing with the unreasonable requirements landlords put up. Finally got tired, when I was looking at a house said "I can give you a check for the deposit now" -- suddenly all his requirements went away and I had a place.
UPDATE: Forgot to mention, I was self employed up until about a month ago, and have been during all my landlord negotiations here in SF.
Thanks, looking at all the answers here I think I need to steer clear of managed companies. That explains all the discrepancies in my experience.
Unfortunately it's hard to find a cheap studio from a private landlord. So that leaves only finding roommates. Except I live with my girlfriend. After convincing her it was important to downsize I hate to put her through another level of inconvenience.
Unfortunately it's hard to find a cheap studio from a private landlord. So that leaves only finding roommates. Except I live with my girlfriend. After convincing her it was important to downsize I hate to put her through another level of inconvenience.
I don't know about it being that difficult. It's stressful -- definitely. The thing I've noticed about San Francisco is the best apartments aren't available in advance. They go on the market a week or so before they're ready to move in. The frustrating part here is that you have to put in your 30-day notice at your previous apartment before you have a new place -- super stressful (unless you're willing to pay double-rent for a bit, which is often times economical given the rent break you get in the new place).
I've had pretty good luck with Craigslist, subscribing to feed(s) of the various neighborhood/price ranges I'm looking in and hounding that feed. A lot of places are only up on CL for a few hours before they're taken down or have a waiting list impossibly long.
On a related note: it may be much easier if you don't look for studios. While San Francisco is an older city -- most of the older buildings you'd expect to find lofts/studios in burned/collapsed in previous decades. The result is most of the housing in the city comes from split up Victorian/Edwardian homes -- one bedroom apartments.
I've had pretty good luck with Craigslist, subscribing to feed(s) of the various neighborhood/price ranges I'm looking in and hounding that feed. A lot of places are only up on CL for a few hours before they're taken down or have a waiting list impossibly long.
On a related note: it may be much easier if you don't look for studios. While San Francisco is an older city -- most of the older buildings you'd expect to find lofts/studios in burned/collapsed in previous decades. The result is most of the housing in the city comes from split up Victorian/Edwardian homes -- one bedroom apartments.
I am self employed, have proof of good earnings, have tax return from last year of more than $350k and an almost-800 point credit score -- and I've still had problems renting here in San Francisco.
My gf and I applied to a $3700/month place we can easily afford on my earnings alone and the landlord was really concerned by the fact we were both self-employed. She wanted to see all of my tax return from last year, all invoices from this year, etc etc -- which I wouldn't show as it's too far IMHO.
It's not legal to discriminant here in SF, not even on income type -- but its difficult one to argue.
The rental market is hot here, even now and good tenants can be found. I also know two cases of friends working on startups and not having a year's personal runway on the places they were renting during a startup. With no income, things got too tight and they had to walk away from a place and break their lease.
A lot of landlords have had this happen to them over the years in SF, and the irresponsible behavior of these particular tenants has damaged things for all of us.
Finally, a lot of my industry friends who have sold companies are landlords themselves here in SF -- they know the risks and (sadly) won't expose themselves to the same risks that they won big on. It's a shame. One company I advise, however, rents their place in return for stock in the company as the property owner is a VC.
My gf and I applied to a $3700/month place we can easily afford on my earnings alone and the landlord was really concerned by the fact we were both self-employed. She wanted to see all of my tax return from last year, all invoices from this year, etc etc -- which I wouldn't show as it's too far IMHO.
It's not legal to discriminant here in SF, not even on income type -- but its difficult one to argue.
The rental market is hot here, even now and good tenants can be found. I also know two cases of friends working on startups and not having a year's personal runway on the places they were renting during a startup. With no income, things got too tight and they had to walk away from a place and break their lease.
A lot of landlords have had this happen to them over the years in SF, and the irresponsible behavior of these particular tenants has damaged things for all of us.
Finally, a lot of my industry friends who have sold companies are landlords themselves here in SF -- they know the risks and (sadly) won't expose themselves to the same risks that they won big on. It's a shame. One company I advise, however, rents their place in return for stock in the company as the property owner is a VC.
The problem is the SF rent control laws make it extremely difficult to evict non-payers which causes landlords to up-regulate their choosiness to avoid any possible problems until risk and reward once again meet.
Sadder still is that SF law makes it next to impossible to evict the physically challenged. I have a blind friend who has told me this has made it impossible for him to rent a decent place in the city.
Sadder still is that SF law makes it next to impossible to evict the physically challenged. I have a blind friend who has told me this has made it impossible for him to rent a decent place in the city.
Perhaps you mean to say that the sad thing is SF isn't protecting the blind from being discriminated against?
I think the point was that laws that are meant to protect some categories of people can end up hurting them more.
Most people's instinctive reaction would be "let's add another anti-discrimination law". The post gives an example of how that approach can fail.
Most people's instinctive reaction would be "let's add another anti-discrimination law". The post gives an example of how that approach can fail.
Only a film I know, but http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100318/ comes to mind, was just watching it the other day.
From what everyone is saying about the specific laws in SF it all makes more sense.
From what everyone is saying about the specific laws in SF it all makes more sense.
I call that hood "Specific Whites".
What do you mean by self-employed if you don't have an income? If you are a contractor (such as myself) you should be fine with whatever tax-related paperwork you have, such as a 1099. If you're trying to start up, I'd second the suggestions of looking for a roommate, if you can bear the thought of it. If you're like me and can't imagine having a roommate, look for a place that's for rent by owner or another similar situation where you would have the opportunity to sit down face to face with someone not bound by corporate policy and try to reach an arrangement.
Sorry, I'm new to this. By self-employed I meant "not unemployed", ie I'm not looking for work. Just living off savings, trying to do something by myself. Thanks for the suggestions.
You may not be "unemployed" for the purposes of govt unemployment statistics, but you are unemployed; you're not employed. More relevant to a potential landlord, you don't have an income that will pay the rent. Ie, your runway is not indefinite, and presumably you can't show that it is "long enough".
So 250k is what constitutes 'long enough'?
Thanks for pointing out what problems the landlord has. I asked how others here cope with the problem in similar situations.
Thanks for pointing out what problems the landlord has. I asked how others here cope with the problem in similar situations.
My problems are compounded by having a big dog, and planning to spend more than $1500/mo on a place (I'm looking for a townhouse or a duplex on the outskirts of SF in the $2.1k range). So, I've been looking for quite some time, but not finding much that fits my needs (I'm in Mountain View, currently).
I've talked to my current landlord about how pervasive this problem is in this area in the past, and it's partially a side effect of how hard it is to evict someone in California. It costs a fortune and takes several months from the time you actually stop paying rent for your landlord to kick you out of your home in CA. So, property owners do everything they can to make sure the cost of you declaring bankruptcy or other tactics to avoid paying your rent while still living there are higher for you than for them. It's one of those unintended consequences of regulations intended to help poor people; it actually hurts the poor the most, since people with high net worth don't have any problems jumping through these hoops, but poor folks get stuck living in the absolute worst locations and paying exorbitant prices because no one else will deal with them.
If you deal with folks who have decision making powers within the company, showing historic tax records indicating you can make the payments, or showing a history of paying similar rents on time and for a long period of time, may be enough. When I moved out here, I had to show I had been making mortgage payments on a house in Austin for several years. My tax records weren't very impressive since I had shut down my prior company two years prior and hadn't started making much money with Virtualmin yet. Landlord also wanted an email confirmation from YC that we actually had some kind of funding, and had some expectation of making money.
A friend of mine was able to get a place, despite having low net worth, no credit history to speak of, and no historic tax records to speak of, and no history of paying similar rents, by just showing pay stubs from her current job which pays enough to cover her rent. But, I would guess that would be dependent on having a job, and dealing with someone that could make a judgment call and has the power to accept a lease from someone without all that other stuff.
I've talked to my current landlord about how pervasive this problem is in this area in the past, and it's partially a side effect of how hard it is to evict someone in California. It costs a fortune and takes several months from the time you actually stop paying rent for your landlord to kick you out of your home in CA. So, property owners do everything they can to make sure the cost of you declaring bankruptcy or other tactics to avoid paying your rent while still living there are higher for you than for them. It's one of those unintended consequences of regulations intended to help poor people; it actually hurts the poor the most, since people with high net worth don't have any problems jumping through these hoops, but poor folks get stuck living in the absolute worst locations and paying exorbitant prices because no one else will deal with them.
If you deal with folks who have decision making powers within the company, showing historic tax records indicating you can make the payments, or showing a history of paying similar rents on time and for a long period of time, may be enough. When I moved out here, I had to show I had been making mortgage payments on a house in Austin for several years. My tax records weren't very impressive since I had shut down my prior company two years prior and hadn't started making much money with Virtualmin yet. Landlord also wanted an email confirmation from YC that we actually had some kind of funding, and had some expectation of making money.
A friend of mine was able to get a place, despite having low net worth, no credit history to speak of, and no historic tax records to speak of, and no history of paying similar rents, by just showing pay stubs from her current job which pays enough to cover her rent. But, I would guess that would be dependent on having a job, and dealing with someone that could make a judgment call and has the power to accept a lease from someone without all that other stuff.
I faced this and after being denied I offered to write a check for the entire year right then. At that point it was insinuated that I must deal drugs. Fools are absolutely infuriating. I had luck finding an owner who's an actual human in the full sense of the word much like the people I normally work with in business. At that point it's like any other deal. I think the key, as always, is to keep trying.
Had a similar scumbag slumlord who, when I attempted to push the rate at which our under-renovation once-beautiful brick building on the border of open air drug markets was being renovated (it wasn't even in compliance with codes, no certificate of occupancy, when we moved in) by offering an advance on rent. I was at home rather frequently as I telecommuted to my webmaster/tech lead job at the city newspaper, but still, similar BS attitudes. Renting sucks.
Don't know about SF, but here's what I've found elsewhere:
- Commercial landlords have policies, and you're dealing with people who don't have the incentive or power to change them. With private landlords, you can talk to them and make a case you'll be a good tenant, they'll take you on.
- Use references. Past landlords are great, but investors can be impressive too. Line up some letters on official stationery.
- If you've got a blog, or public site, or coverage, you can use those to woo landlords too.
Landlords want someone who will pay the rent, not trash the place, not bother them, and stay a long time. Keep those in mind, and figure out how to sell yourself as a good tenant, and hopefully the formalities shouldn't be an obstacle.
- Commercial landlords have policies, and you're dealing with people who don't have the incentive or power to change them. With private landlords, you can talk to them and make a case you'll be a good tenant, they'll take you on.
- Use references. Past landlords are great, but investors can be impressive too. Line up some letters on official stationery.
- If you've got a blog, or public site, or coverage, you can use those to woo landlords too.
Landlords want someone who will pay the rent, not trash the place, not bother them, and stay a long time. Keep those in mind, and figure out how to sell yourself as a good tenant, and hopefully the formalities shouldn't be an obstacle.
Thanks for those tips.
The one major structural obstacle is that cheap studios rarely come from private landlords, so we have to look one step up at 1-bedrooms.
The one major structural obstacle is that cheap studios rarely come from private landlords, so we have to look one step up at 1-bedrooms.
The trick is using university/college off-campus housing listing pages. You'll find great deals. Here's the one from SFSU:
http://sfstate.och101.com/
"Spacious Studio in Nagley Mansion" $850.00
Also check UofSF, UCSF.
I wouldn't be discouraged by that offer. Like in business, some landlords prefer to wait for that A+ tenant and take a premium, whereas other deals in bulk or have cashflow problems so they need to fill the place sooner. There are HUGE price differences. In Toronto, my friends once rented a whole house in an upper class area (the Annex) for the price of a 1-bedroom apartment.
I wouldn't be discouraged by that offer. Like in business, some landlords prefer to wait for that A+ tenant and take a premium, whereas other deals in bulk or have cashflow problems so they need to fill the place sooner. There are HUGE price differences. In Toronto, my friends once rented a whole house in an upper class area (the Annex) for the price of a 1-bedroom apartment.
Another idea might be to rent in Oakland/East Bay - the rental market is much different there and you will get more for your money. Landlords are, frankly, less snobbish then in SF from what I've seen second-hand via friends who've rented there.
I know a lot of startup'ers who BART in from the East Bay to hang out in SoMa during the day and then travel back out -- it's quite convenient and cost-effective.
The downside is that many parts of Oakland are not ideal to live in, esp if you have a girlfriend (personal safety, etc) -- however you might feel the sacrifice is worth it in this situation.
I know a lot of startup'ers who BART in from the East Bay to hang out in SoMa during the day and then travel back out -- it's quite convenient and cost-effective.
The downside is that many parts of Oakland are not ideal to live in, esp if you have a girlfriend (personal safety, etc) -- however you might feel the sacrifice is worth it in this situation.
For the East Bay I would look at Rockridge, Piedmont, parts of the Oakland Hills such as Montclair and parts of Emeryville. Rockridge is the most convienent to BART, however.
From many parts of Oakland you can be in downtown SF in less than 15min by car (without traffic) BART is ~10min into the city, and if you're nautically inclined there's a ferry from Jack London Square.
Essentially: commuting from Oakland to SF can be quicker than commuting from one end of SF to another. It's much cheaper, and I've found it to be more accepting of the self-employeed.
Great (safe + cool) Oakland neighborhoods: Temescal, Rockridge, Piedmont Ave, Lakeshore, Lake Merritt, Uptown, Old Town, and Jack London//produce & waterfront.
Essentially: commuting from Oakland to SF can be quicker than commuting from one end of SF to another. It's much cheaper, and I've found it to be more accepting of the self-employeed.
Great (safe + cool) Oakland neighborhoods: Temescal, Rockridge, Piedmont Ave, Lakeshore, Lake Merritt, Uptown, Old Town, and Jack London//produce & waterfront.
Here are some good tips for self-employed apartment hunting in San Francisco:
1) Don't go to a rental company. Citiapartments sucks anyways, they are crooks. 2) Walk around and take numbers off of buildings. The best apartments never go on craigslist. 3) Network hard. You won't believe how many apartments I got because I knew someone. I'm in a place in Nob Hill because I knew a girl who was moving to CT. She'd lived here ten years, and I took the place over from her with her rent control intact. I pay $1300 for a two bedroom with a stunning view of the southern part of town. Of course, when times are tough I also know where to get a $250 office space I can sleep in because of my networking. 4) Bring your own credit reports.
That's really all I can say - I have been under- or self-employed for the better part of a decade, and I've never had a problem finding a place to live. I do have years of networking in this town too though so your mileage may vary.
1) Don't go to a rental company. Citiapartments sucks anyways, they are crooks. 2) Walk around and take numbers off of buildings. The best apartments never go on craigslist. 3) Network hard. You won't believe how many apartments I got because I knew someone. I'm in a place in Nob Hill because I knew a girl who was moving to CT. She'd lived here ten years, and I took the place over from her with her rent control intact. I pay $1300 for a two bedroom with a stunning view of the southern part of town. Of course, when times are tough I also know where to get a $250 office space I can sleep in because of my networking. 4) Bring your own credit reports.
That's really all I can say - I have been under- or self-employed for the better part of a decade, and I've never had a problem finding a place to live. I do have years of networking in this town too though so your mileage may vary.
I can't help with SF, but I've been looking in the Boston-North area for a while, and in my experience apartment companies require a years worth of proof so that you can prove you can pay off the lease. I dropped the apartment market a while back and have been strictly looking at condos - which do require a more stringent investigation into your finances.
Is living in SF a must - how are the burbs or just outside of SF comparable? You may be able to find something for less a month and also easier on the financial investigation.
Best of luck.
Is living in SF a must - how are the burbs or just outside of SF comparable? You may be able to find something for less a month and also easier on the financial investigation.
Best of luck.
Might be obvious but find a roommate that is renting out a room, then you don't have to deal with any of those issues.
Just find a quiet one or one that is out a lot so that you being home all the time does not bother either of you.
You may even catch a break with one that has a dog and you offer to walk it in the afternoons during a coding break. Most people who have pets would love someone to walk them during an afternoon.
Just find a quiet one or one that is out a lot so that you being home all the time does not bother either of you.
You may even catch a break with one that has a dog and you offer to walk it in the afternoons during a coding break. Most people who have pets would love someone to walk them during an afternoon.
Thanks for the suggestion. I have a girlfriend, but maybe we have to go this route.
If you have steady income, use your tax documents and bank records to prove your income.
If you don't have income, can you afford the rent through the termination of the lease? If you may not be able to, then you might need to room with someone else or get a cosigner for your lease. If you can then find out whether you can place a deposit or pay in advance (e.g. last months, last 2 months, etc.)
If you don't have income, can you afford the rent through the termination of the lease? If you may not be able to, then you might need to room with someone else or get a cosigner for your lease. If you can then find out whether you can place a deposit or pay in advance (e.g. last months, last 2 months, etc.)
My roommate and I pay more than that for our place on Haight st. Getting an apartment isn't hard. We make moderately good income and getting a place wasn't hard at all.
sublet. or find a non-professional landlord. look around on craigslist. there's plenty of people in trouble trying to get out of their lease.
Of course, I've not lived in the city proper, but I've lived in the bay area on and off for most of my adult life, and I've not had any trouble avoiding the corporate landlords who have funny rules.
My experience has been that the non-professionals usually have better prices, too.
Of course, I've not lived in the city proper, but I've lived in the bay area on and off for most of my adult life, and I've not had any trouble avoiding the corporate landlords who have funny rules.
My experience has been that the non-professionals usually have better prices, too.
super big deposit?
Good point, I'll check.
It kinda sucks though to have your cash tied up right when you need it most.
It kinda sucks though to have your cash tied up right when you need it most.
The idea that you may need your cash for something besides rent is exactly the landlord's concern.
For me this comment hits the nail on the head...
You either offer to pay all/half of the year's rent in one go (and ask for a discount for the privilege) because you have it now and u prob don't expect to have cash flow during that time
..or you actually can't afford a year's lease on current savings, in which case it's unlikely you can afford the place assuming no real cash flow during the first year of a start up.
You either offer to pay all/half of the year's rent in one go (and ask for a discount for the privilege) because you have it now and u prob don't expect to have cash flow during that time
..or you actually can't afford a year's lease on current savings, in which case it's unlikely you can afford the place assuming no real cash flow during the first year of a start up.
Except I have the options of raising funding or getting work.
I'm not objecting to tests of fitness for payment; they're just not flexible enough. I have things to offer instead of income: Savings, a superlative credit score (so I could get a loan, or even pay rent with credit cards if I had to), qualifications.
I'm straying from the original goal, though. The post was to inquire about how others deal with this issue, not fairness.
I'm not objecting to tests of fitness for payment; they're just not flexible enough. I have things to offer instead of income: Savings, a superlative credit score (so I could get a loan, or even pay rent with credit cards if I had to), qualifications.
I'm straying from the original goal, though. The post was to inquire about how others deal with this issue, not fairness.
It kinda sucks though to have your cash tied up right when you need it most.
If you think you need cash now, just wait until you've spent a few months working on your startup. :-)
If you think you need cash now, just wait until you've spent a few months working on your startup. :-)
That's probably the one most useful thing you (re)learn when doing a startup: how to save money.
It's so easy to get caught up in big spending when you get out and start working. Most of your yuppie brethren are inclined as such, after all. I have a feeling that learning how to be frugal will pay off in later years, seeing how most older folks seem to value it... xP
It's so easy to get caught up in big spending when you get out and start working. Most of your yuppie brethren are inclined as such, after all. I have a feeling that learning how to be frugal will pay off in later years, seeing how most older folks seem to value it... xP
Lie.
I think most of us living in SF have income and/or 250k in net worth.
Get into politics, and try to convince the people of SF that rent control is stupid and needs to be done away with, use yourself as an example. Well that's a good long term plan, in the short term, I'm afraid you might be screwed.
I have savings, but not that kind of savings..