Independence vote: Catalonia's quarrel with Spain(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Independence vote: Catalonia's quarrel with Spain
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29478415
3 comments
The funny thing is that a friend of mine, born in Tarragona (Cataluña) and moved to Valencia 15 years ago, is not allowed to vote.
A similar thing happened with the Scottish referendum. They excluded something like 20-25% of all potential voters by saying you had to be living in Scotland to vote.
It's a tricky problem though, because you'd have to define what exactly counts as "Scottish" or "Catalan" for people who don't live there. Genetics? Culture? Birthplace? Any one of those could be considered inadequate.
It's a tricky problem though, because you'd have to define what exactly counts as "Scottish" or "Catalan" for people who don't live there. Genetics? Culture? Birthplace? Any one of those could be considered inadequate.
It's also "funny" that a illegal immigrant in Catalonia can vote but a citizen of Madrid do not have any right even if their parent are from Catalonia.
But relax, nobody is going to vote because is illegal.
But relax, nobody is going to vote because is illegal.
If I recall corectly it was the same for the Scotish referendum.
This is a well summarized while accurate article about the independence movement in Catalonia.
If anyone is interested in this subject and has questions, I'll be happy to reply as best as I can (I was born and currently live in Catalonia).
If anyone is interested in this subject and has questions, I'll be happy to reply as best as I can (I was born and currently live in Catalonia).
Accurate? No at all. Try to compare Scotland with Catalonia is not accurate at all. Scotland was a nation before, Catalonia never was a nation before. UK do not have Constitution so is the current parlament which determinate what can be done or not, but in Spain like in other country like USA we have a Constitution, which say "The sovereignty of the Spanish territory falls on all Spanish citizens". So just few can not decide about that.
BBC please, you are taking your source from the Government of Catalonia which is try a Coup d'état (coup) again the rest of Spanish. And is pushing the people to disobedience the authority, another illegal act.
Catalonia is on bankruptcy and is the government of Spain which is giving money to save their economy. And they spoil the money in have 7 public tv channels which only make propaganda about independencia. They spoil the money in all this process of independency instead of invest on the real economy.
All this new wave of independency is not about historic reason because there is not historic reason, neither about get more power because most of the power is already delegate to the regional government. All this start because the current political party in power in the government in Catalonia is full of corruption[1], the previous president of Catalonia[2] is at ready in court for hide more than 3 Billions of euros in banks around the world without pay tax, and all point out that this money was take from commissions, blackmail the companies to pay 3% or 5% from every public contact that make in Catalonia during more than 30 years.
The project of Europe is all about very different countries join together to try to build a more prosper area, to try to avoid nationalize that only bring wars in Europe.
[1] - http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converg%C3%A8ncia_i_Uni%C3%B3#C... [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol_i_Soley#Corruption_...
BBC please, you are taking your source from the Government of Catalonia which is try a Coup d'état (coup) again the rest of Spanish. And is pushing the people to disobedience the authority, another illegal act.
Catalonia is on bankruptcy and is the government of Spain which is giving money to save their economy. And they spoil the money in have 7 public tv channels which only make propaganda about independencia. They spoil the money in all this process of independency instead of invest on the real economy.
All this new wave of independency is not about historic reason because there is not historic reason, neither about get more power because most of the power is already delegate to the regional government. All this start because the current political party in power in the government in Catalonia is full of corruption[1], the previous president of Catalonia[2] is at ready in court for hide more than 3 Billions of euros in banks around the world without pay tax, and all point out that this money was take from commissions, blackmail the companies to pay 3% or 5% from every public contact that make in Catalonia during more than 30 years.
The project of Europe is all about very different countries join together to try to build a more prosper area, to try to avoid nationalize that only bring wars in Europe.
[1] - http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converg%C3%A8ncia_i_Uni%C3%B3#C... [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Pujol_i_Soley#Corruption_...
Being a nation doesn't require being a state. You might not like it but Catalonia is a nation (seeking to be a state).
How do you think Spain takes advantage of Catalonia, exactly? If so, how can this independence call be effective in avoiding that? Finally, what will you win and what will you lose of you do decide to become your own nation?
First of all, even though the independence debate is very important, the current stage of the "conflict" is whether Catalans have the right to, not simply decide about this, but to voice their opinion (in a non-binding way) on this.
This said, I will try to explain some of the arguments and thoughts that are common amongst many Catalans supporting independence. Obviously, not all share the same thoughts.
Catalans know they are very important in the Spanish economy. The BBC article has some graphs and explanations on this. Catalans also know, and this is public information, that a lot of the money they contribute in taxes never comes back and is instead used in other regions. This is accepted, but there's a perception that the money is not being used to boost a productive economy in other areas but to subsidize non-productive sectors as well as to finance services and infrastructures that are not critical or necessary, while many of those services and infrastructures are not available in Catalonia. Some nation-wide (here nation means the current Kingdom of Spain) infrastructures have been designed with a centralizing vision of Spain that doesn't consider certain objective variables. One very well known example of this are the high speed AVE train railways, which are unprofitable and the EU criticized [1]. On top of that, Catalans see that this has been the case for decades and, if anything, it looks like it's getting worse. [2] The Catalan proposal to some of these problems is to make sure that, when the money is redistributed amongst the Spanish regions, Catalonia (or other regions) doesn't lose it's position in terms of GDP. For example, if Catalonia is the 4th region in GDP in a particular year before redistributing taxes, it should still be the 4th after the redistribution. This was included in the 2006 Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, which, as I'll explain now, the Spanish Constitutional Court ruled unconstitutional. The concern is not so much about the money that could be kept in Catalonia, but about how it could be used for services and infrastructures that are necessary, productive and that boost the economy.
That's where the taking advantage part ends. The other arguments are not so much about this but about how Catalonia cannot make and execute important decisions about education, culture, economy, infrastructures, services and relationship with other nations that would often follow a model very different to the Spanish one.
To mention but a few:
* The Statute of Autonomy of 2006 was the main law for self-government that the Catalan Parliament passed and that was approved in referendum. This law was the result of years of discussion and hard work to build consensus. It was ruled unconstitutional in 2010 after years of deliberation. Similar situations occurred in the past. Please take a look at picture [5] (demonstration after the 1932 Statute was rejected) and at the Wikipedia article [6] about the 2010 demonstration after the 2006 Statute was rejected..
* The model of education in Catalonia is a case of success and social consensus. Education is mainly in Catalan although Spanish and English are thought as well. This is one of it's main features but the Catalan model differs from the Spanish one in many other ways. Catalans regard this model as the main reason why the Catalan society is a cohesive one, even though Catalonia has received huge amount of immigrants continuously during the last 60+ years. During the last few years Catalans have seen how the Spanish Government is trying to change this model, including the language.
* Catalonia is not recognized as a nation. The Statute of Autonomy of 2006 included a mention of Catalonia as a nation. Many Catalans feel this as a violation of their identity and right of nationality. In consequence, the Catalan culture is often silenced and ignored in all international spheres.
* Spain has repeatedly banned the adoption of Catalan as one of the official languages in the EU, even though more people speak it than many other official ones. [2]
* Catalans cannot participate in international events as Catalans. Take sports, for example, where Catalans have repeatedly showed that they would support them participating internationally [3].
As you can see, independence would simply allow Catalans to decide about all these things. Many Catalans felt that the best way to accomplish these goals was to negotiate patiently, but years and years of unsuccessful results have convinced them that we no one should decide for us in our internal matters as well as relationships with other nations.
An independent Catalonia would probably do very well by itself, according to many. Mid and long term it's all benefits, even thought at the beginning it would be difficult given the current condition of the Catalan finances. The biggest risk is if Catalonia ends up outside of the European Union (which Catalans don't want and it's unclear that it could legally happen) and the consequences of this. You could take a look at [4] for more details.
For many Catalans remaining in Spain is simply not an option anymore.
[1] http://www.lne.es/asturias/2010/12/14/ue-critica-modelo-radi...
[2] http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticia/4072536/20130109/catala-seten...
[3] http://www.324.cat/noticia/47238/politica/Pujol-recorda-que-...
[4] http://www.wilson.cat/en/comunicats-conjunts/item/215-dos-m%...
[5] http://lh6.ggpht.com/_KKTCT60suEU/TXU5tANkPEI/AAAAAAAADHk/La...
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Catalan_autonomy_protest
This said, I will try to explain some of the arguments and thoughts that are common amongst many Catalans supporting independence. Obviously, not all share the same thoughts.
Catalans know they are very important in the Spanish economy. The BBC article has some graphs and explanations on this. Catalans also know, and this is public information, that a lot of the money they contribute in taxes never comes back and is instead used in other regions. This is accepted, but there's a perception that the money is not being used to boost a productive economy in other areas but to subsidize non-productive sectors as well as to finance services and infrastructures that are not critical or necessary, while many of those services and infrastructures are not available in Catalonia. Some nation-wide (here nation means the current Kingdom of Spain) infrastructures have been designed with a centralizing vision of Spain that doesn't consider certain objective variables. One very well known example of this are the high speed AVE train railways, which are unprofitable and the EU criticized [1]. On top of that, Catalans see that this has been the case for decades and, if anything, it looks like it's getting worse. [2] The Catalan proposal to some of these problems is to make sure that, when the money is redistributed amongst the Spanish regions, Catalonia (or other regions) doesn't lose it's position in terms of GDP. For example, if Catalonia is the 4th region in GDP in a particular year before redistributing taxes, it should still be the 4th after the redistribution. This was included in the 2006 Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, which, as I'll explain now, the Spanish Constitutional Court ruled unconstitutional. The concern is not so much about the money that could be kept in Catalonia, but about how it could be used for services and infrastructures that are necessary, productive and that boost the economy.
That's where the taking advantage part ends. The other arguments are not so much about this but about how Catalonia cannot make and execute important decisions about education, culture, economy, infrastructures, services and relationship with other nations that would often follow a model very different to the Spanish one.
To mention but a few:
* The Statute of Autonomy of 2006 was the main law for self-government that the Catalan Parliament passed and that was approved in referendum. This law was the result of years of discussion and hard work to build consensus. It was ruled unconstitutional in 2010 after years of deliberation. Similar situations occurred in the past. Please take a look at picture [5] (demonstration after the 1932 Statute was rejected) and at the Wikipedia article [6] about the 2010 demonstration after the 2006 Statute was rejected..
* The model of education in Catalonia is a case of success and social consensus. Education is mainly in Catalan although Spanish and English are thought as well. This is one of it's main features but the Catalan model differs from the Spanish one in many other ways. Catalans regard this model as the main reason why the Catalan society is a cohesive one, even though Catalonia has received huge amount of immigrants continuously during the last 60+ years. During the last few years Catalans have seen how the Spanish Government is trying to change this model, including the language.
* Catalonia is not recognized as a nation. The Statute of Autonomy of 2006 included a mention of Catalonia as a nation. Many Catalans feel this as a violation of their identity and right of nationality. In consequence, the Catalan culture is often silenced and ignored in all international spheres.
* Spain has repeatedly banned the adoption of Catalan as one of the official languages in the EU, even though more people speak it than many other official ones. [2]
* Catalans cannot participate in international events as Catalans. Take sports, for example, where Catalans have repeatedly showed that they would support them participating internationally [3].
As you can see, independence would simply allow Catalans to decide about all these things. Many Catalans felt that the best way to accomplish these goals was to negotiate patiently, but years and years of unsuccessful results have convinced them that we no one should decide for us in our internal matters as well as relationships with other nations.
An independent Catalonia would probably do very well by itself, according to many. Mid and long term it's all benefits, even thought at the beginning it would be difficult given the current condition of the Catalan finances. The biggest risk is if Catalonia ends up outside of the European Union (which Catalans don't want and it's unclear that it could legally happen) and the consequences of this. You could take a look at [4] for more details.
For many Catalans remaining in Spain is simply not an option anymore.
[1] http://www.lne.es/asturias/2010/12/14/ue-critica-modelo-radi...
[2] http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticia/4072536/20130109/catala-seten...
[3] http://www.324.cat/noticia/47238/politica/Pujol-recorda-que-...
[4] http://www.wilson.cat/en/comunicats-conjunts/item/215-dos-m%...
[5] http://lh6.ggpht.com/_KKTCT60suEU/TXU5tANkPEI/AAAAAAAADHk/La...
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Catalan_autonomy_protest
While the article may summarize the current situation I actually think it's kinda biased and has a pro-independence accent in many paragraphs.
i.e.: [...]locked in since the 15th Century, and subjected periodically to repressive campaigns to make it "more Spanish".
I'm Spanish, was born in Galicia (north-west region of Spain), and I completely support the Independence "consultation".
Just my opinion.
i.e.: [...]locked in since the 15th Century, and subjected periodically to repressive campaigns to make it "more Spanish".
I'm Spanish, was born in Galicia (north-west region of Spain), and I completely support the Independence "consultation".
Just my opinion.
How does it technically work to distinguish Catalans from Spaniards? Do you have in your passport a distinct nationality? Or do you have to prove that you live in Catalonia? Or is there another way to make sure that only Catalans vote?
The Spanish Constitution recognizes the existence of different nationalities in Spain but doesn't specify which ones and in fact this usage of "nationalities" in the Constitution has been interpreted as a way to avoid mentioning the existence of nations within Spain. The passport only states the city and province where you were born. This means that, legally, Catalans cannot be distinguished from Spaniards. A census of residents is normally used for local and regional elections.
There is an id card (DNI for Documento Nacional de Indentidad: National Id Document) which is mandatory over a certain age that is commonly used in legal and commercial procedures (for example to open a bank account or to pay with your credit card) to identify people. There is an equivalent document for residents (NIE).
These are the documents normally used to identify yourself when voting and this was the plan for November 9th. Now that the Spanish Government has legally blocked the voting from happening the Catalan Government has presented a new method to allow Catalans to vote about independence and this method will not utilize any type of census of the Catalan residents (the reason for this is to avoid more legal attacks from the Spanish Government on that basis).
As far as I know the DNI and the NIE will still be used to identify voters. There is another document ("padró municipal" in Catalan) that proves residency in a city, which could be used to make sure that only residents vote. Most technical details haven't been revealed yet (this method was presented yesterday), so I think it's not currently possible to add more to the answer.
There is an id card (DNI for Documento Nacional de Indentidad: National Id Document) which is mandatory over a certain age that is commonly used in legal and commercial procedures (for example to open a bank account or to pay with your credit card) to identify people. There is an equivalent document for residents (NIE).
These are the documents normally used to identify yourself when voting and this was the plan for November 9th. Now that the Spanish Government has legally blocked the voting from happening the Catalan Government has presented a new method to allow Catalans to vote about independence and this method will not utilize any type of census of the Catalan residents (the reason for this is to avoid more legal attacks from the Spanish Government on that basis).
As far as I know the DNI and the NIE will still be used to identify voters. There is another document ("padró municipal" in Catalan) that proves residency in a city, which could be used to make sure that only residents vote. Most technical details haven't been revealed yet (this method was presented yesterday), so I think it's not currently possible to add more to the answer.
Thanks for your detailed answer. So anybody living in Catalonia, with Spanish nationality will be able to vote. What about native Catalans living outside of Catalonia?
Nobody is going to vote, is illegal. In Spain the only way to make a referendum is if the Government of Spain organize it. In the case that happened is all the citizen of Spain who can vote.
We do already vote on local elections, for our local government. So I guess the same rules will apply.
Every spanish person is registered to vote on the region he is living at. If a "consultation" was to be done, it could use that same registry.
Every spanish person is registered to vote on the region he is living at. If a "consultation" was to be done, it could use that same registry.
If I'm not wrong, the way it happened was: the independence vote was brough up and impulsed when Catalonia regional government couldn't get a larger chunk of the national budget and the central government didn't want to negotiate. That, mixed with the central government enforcing the use of Spanish and other local cultural topics and their hostility towards Catalonia has definitely impulsed the independence.
To be honest, I don't think independence is a big issue for the average Catalonian. They have channeled their distisfaction with the economic crisis and corruption with a rejection to Spain and the central government. They usually think that Catalonia is above the rest of Spain in terms of economics development and corruption but the truth is, although Catalonia is more international and cosmopolitan(especially Barcelona), there are both unemployment and corruption here.