Stripe launches German beta(stripe.com)
stripe.com
Stripe launches German beta
https://stripe.com/global#germany
25 comments
I can see a vast majority here are very positive on this news. Just wonder in areas that are yet to be covered by Stripe, what are you guys using? Also, I recall a few months ago PayPal introduced a revamped set of APIs which claims to be more developer friendly. Anybody cares to chime in on that front?
We use Paymill for which we're very satisfied with. The initial paperwork isn't fun, but the experience is much better than all previous options for EU companies..
I believe that PayPal's new API is only available for american merchants.
I believe that PayPal's new API is only available for american merchants.
Does Stripe deal with scoring and fraud prevention etc. or do I have to implement my own countermeasures?
Just curious, does Stripe's recent expansion have any impact on US companies using Stripe? Can Stripe now process German and UK customer credit cards for US companies, or was that already available?
I'm pretty sure that any Visa/MC can be processed at Stripe, regardless of location. Country specific cards, like Diner's Club and others may require extra effort by the processing companies, and sometimes lead to higher costs. But can generally still be processed.
Moral of the story is anyone anywhere can buy something from a US company using Stripe on their credit card.
Moral of the story is anyone anywhere can buy something from a US company using Stripe on their credit card.
I just signed up. There is no setting for Germany in the account details, just United States, United Kingdom and Canada.
Any plans for Latin American countries?
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It's astonishing how quick they can expand something as complicated as payment processing to many - bigger and smaller - countries in Europe.
One you get into one EU country, dealing with other EU countries is probably quite a bit easier...
Especially if that first country is Germany, as they're one of the economic powerhouses of the EU.
They were already in beta in the Netherlands for a while actually.
Given that we're quite similar to Germany except for being a bit more focussed on international trade, we might have been a test run for German deployment though.
Given that we're quite similar to Germany except for being a bit more focussed on international trade, we might have been a test run for German deployment though.
Ireland was the first Eurozone country to enter Stripe beta, UK was the first EU.
Ireland is in the EU and uses the euro. UK is also in the EU but uses GBP.
Isn't that exactly what Kudos said?
Ah yes a little confusion has taken over on my part. Ireland is in the EU and the eurozone.
Well, you probably need some kind of foothold for legal reasons somewhere in the EU/EEC (probably some tax-haven like Luxembourg), but after that it's not really that easy, as each country has its own legal and technical banking peculiarities. A pretty big mess.
They've been talking about this for more than a year. Not sure if that qualifies as quick. That being said, it's awesome that they got there—I got into the Dutch beta and can say the process of dealing with Stripe is an order of magnitude better than dealing with Paymill (the clone that rolled out earlier).
Sadly Germans hate credit cards.
Credit card usage is somewhat lower in Germany (though by a smaller margin than people think), and we considered holding off 'till we had a better answer to this. But we thought about it more, and talked to a bunch of German companies, and realized that a lot of German users want to sell to a global market in the very same way that, say, an American company would -- there isn't necessarily a tight coupling between the geography of your customers and the geography of your business. (This is what's great about the internet!) Travis CI is a good example here.
Seen this way, we figured it made sense to bring the capabilities that US users have today to Germany as quickly as we could.
Seen this way, we figured it made sense to bring the capabilities that US users have today to Germany as quickly as we could.
Kudos for this choice. Internet businesses are often naturally international.
Thank you guys/girls, we have being waiting for this for a while now, we almost went with Paymill , so this is some awesome news. What's the issue with being able to accept Dollars only with a US Bank account, would you fix this after the beta or is it supposed to stay like this? ...or have I misunderstood something?
We'll add USD -> Euro German bank account very soon. Want to drop Thairu an email ([email protected]) and we'll ping you once it's ready?
Great, thanks
Hm yes, to sell stuff "from" Germany to the rest of the World this would be pretty nice :)
I just signed up for PayMill yesterday, but didn't send them the paperwork yet. I might as well sign up for Stripe then.
Same here, the paperwork will be left undone as it looks...!
Let me know if you need an invite -- [email protected].
I'm in an office in Berlin as I type this. Every person around me has a credit card. Every German I personally know, including my destitute student friends, have credit cards.
It's not like online retail isn't a huge business here, and credit cards are the easiest payment method available, due to the incredibly restrictive nature of German banks.
A lot of startups here have been screaming for this day.
It's not like online retail isn't a huge business here, and credit cards are the easiest payment method available, due to the incredibly restrictive nature of German banks.
A lot of startups here have been screaming for this day.
Credit card ownership in Germany was around 33% in 2011 [1].
The problem that credit cards have in Germany is that they have to compete with ELV (and soon SEPA Direct Debit, I suspect), which from a consumer's perspective (though not from a seller's) is the superior payment system (ease of chargebacks, plus the up to 150 Euro that you may have to eat if your credit card details are stolen, plus the historical tendency of the courts to side with banks over consumers in the case of card theft [2]).
[1] http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Downloads/Publications...
[2] The law has recently been changed to no longer make a prima facie assumption that you mishandled your PIN if your card was used fraudulently, but you may still have a lot of hassle to go through.
The problem that credit cards have in Germany is that they have to compete with ELV (and soon SEPA Direct Debit, I suspect), which from a consumer's perspective (though not from a seller's) is the superior payment system (ease of chargebacks, plus the up to 150 Euro that you may have to eat if your credit card details are stolen, plus the historical tendency of the courts to side with banks over consumers in the case of card theft [2]).
[1] http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Downloads/Publications...
[2] The law has recently been changed to no longer make a prima facie assumption that you mishandled your PIN if your card was used fraudulently, but you may still have a lot of hassle to go through.
Direct debit is just as easy. Two numbers to enter.
The problem is that you can't synchronously process the payment, which makes the API (and user experience generally) much more complicated.
In what way? As a user, you get your order confirmation and while it might take a bit longer for the money to arrive, that's really not even noticeable for most e-commerce transactions.
I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver.
I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver.
As a user, you get your order confirmation and while it might take a bit longer for the money to arrive
Setting up Direct Debits, at least the UK version, it's not "a bit longer" for your money to arrive, it's confirmation several days later vs. within seconds.
For ongoing payments like subscriptions this probably isn't a huge deal, but for one-off payments it makes less sense.
I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver.
Unfortunately from the seller's point of view, that also means it's much easier for someone to claim to be a customer, get hold of your e-book/music/software/whatever, and then reverse the payment. There are procedures for disputing chargebacks on credit cards, but with Direct Debit the guarantee is basically that banks will reverse first and ask questions later, and the time limits for doing so are much longer (if there are any at all).
Again, this is less of a problem for ongoing payments for utility bills or something like SaaS where you can just cut off access if they stop paying, but for things like one-time downloads it's a huge risk for the merchant.
Setting up Direct Debits, at least the UK version, it's not "a bit longer" for your money to arrive, it's confirmation several days later vs. within seconds.
For ongoing payments like subscriptions this probably isn't a huge deal, but for one-off payments it makes less sense.
I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver.
Unfortunately from the seller's point of view, that also means it's much easier for someone to claim to be a customer, get hold of your e-book/music/software/whatever, and then reverse the payment. There are procedures for disputing chargebacks on credit cards, but with Direct Debit the guarantee is basically that banks will reverse first and ask questions later, and the time limits for doing so are much longer (if there are any at all).
Again, this is less of a problem for ongoing payments for utility bills or something like SaaS where you can just cut off access if they stop paying, but for things like one-time downloads it's a huge risk for the merchant.
I can't remember ever having to wait for an order to be delivered in Germany while they were waiting for the debit to arrive. As opposed to a money transfer that I have to initiate myself.
If I remember correctly, the e-commerce systems can check if the account is valid, and as most have overdraft and thus the responsibility for getting the money is transferred to the client's credit institute, there's little risk.
Yes, for downloads this can be a hassle, but it's not like this is the only payment option used by people, so it's not a big bother if direct debit isn't offered in this case or you're going through an intermediate solution like e.g. paypal. I think most people would prefer alternative solutions for one-time payments anyway, i.e. if they don't think they'll be a regular customer.
Not sure how the recent SEPA regulations will affect this...
If I remember correctly, the e-commerce systems can check if the account is valid, and as most have overdraft and thus the responsibility for getting the money is transferred to the client's credit institute, there's little risk.
Yes, for downloads this can be a hassle, but it's not like this is the only payment option used by people, so it's not a big bother if direct debit isn't offered in this case or you're going through an intermediate solution like e.g. paypal. I think most people would prefer alternative solutions for one-time payments anyway, i.e. if they don't think they'll be a regular customer.
Not sure how the recent SEPA regulations will affect this...
There is one German company offering a solution (https://www.sofort.com/eng-DE/), but as far as I know, it's still unclear if their users don't break their own banks' ToS-
If you're using Sofort, then there's an off-site redirect involved and it's no longer as simple as entering two numbers.
Do you plan on supporting direct debit in the future or is your focus on expanding to more countries before adding more payment options?
We're thinking about it, but it's not clear to us that we can create an abstraction that fits nicely with everything else. I'm not sure that the additional complexity would be worth it. Definitely open to any suggestions.
I prefer not handling my bank account details for anything to anyone
A credit card can be cancelled and purchases disputed.
A credit card can be cancelled and purchases disputed.
Too bad most stores have never heard about this "credit card thing", some will grudgingly accept EC (the german debit card)
Maybe, but it's certainly not hard to get a credit card in Germany. I moved from The Netherlands to Germany on August 1 and I got a credit card with my bank account at no extra cost.
A really big difference here however is that for daily groceries people tend to pay in cash and for lower amounts they'll refuse use of a debit card, while in The Netherlands practically everyone pays with a debit card all the time.
It would be interesting to see per-country statistics.
A really big difference here however is that for daily groceries people tend to pay in cash and for lower amounts they'll refuse use of a debit card, while in The Netherlands practically everyone pays with a debit card all the time.
It would be interesting to see per-country statistics.
It has to do with privacy. Germans are quite fond of keeping up personal information personal, and they just don't want that bank can keep track of their purchases. That's the main reason why people here prefer cash as a method of payment.
Of course, when paying or order something online, you need to provide your shipping address anyways, so credit cards brings at least a benefit of possible dispute if anything goes wrong.
Of course, when paying or order something online, you need to provide your shipping address anyways, so credit cards brings at least a benefit of possible dispute if anything goes wrong.
That's one reason. Another one, for me, is that I'd feel bad about being too lazy to simply withdraw some cash from the ATM and carry it around with me. To me it's like walking around with an umbrella in light rain, refusing to eat a piece of bread that dropped on the ground, or the recentish plague of luggage with wheels. I consider it the hobbitification of humans, and I'm not playing.
Then there is the fact that people who pay digitally tend to hold up the queue. Just plop down some cash and take the change, will ya. Gah.
Then there is the fact that people who pay digitally tend to hold up the queue. Just plop down some cash and take the change, will ya. Gah.
Another one, for me, is that I'd feel bad about being too lazy to simply withdraw some cash from the ATM and carry it around with me.
It's the 21st century. I don't want to think about whether I should get 20 or 30 Euro from an ATM, let alone carry 100 Euro in my wallet. In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
Even worse is this 'digital wallet' that is required in some busses, etc., where you have to precharge the chip with a certain amount of money.
Then there is the fact that people who pay digitally tend to hold up the queue. Just plop down some cash and take the change, will ya. Gah.
That's because the checkout process in Germany is not optimized for bank card payments. Try to go to a Dutch supermarket (e.g. Albert Heijn in city centers) and it's usually cash payers who are slowing down the queues. Thank god, they have counters these days where they only allow bank cards.
It's the 21st century. I don't want to think about whether I should get 20 or 30 Euro from an ATM, let alone carry 100 Euro in my wallet. In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
Even worse is this 'digital wallet' that is required in some busses, etc., where you have to precharge the chip with a certain amount of money.
Then there is the fact that people who pay digitally tend to hold up the queue. Just plop down some cash and take the change, will ya. Gah.
That's because the checkout process in Germany is not optimized for bank card payments. Try to go to a Dutch supermarket (e.g. Albert Heijn in city centers) and it's usually cash payers who are slowing down the queues. Thank god, they have counters these days where they only allow bank cards.
Of course, it's all fine and cool until health insurance starts increasing your monthly payments because you bought too much "unhealthy/non-bio" food. Or when you start getting longer TSA "treatments" because you purchased "wrong and dangerous" book. Or you "just" start getting super creepy targeted advertisement on your mailbox.
No thanks, anything that technically allows tracking will be tracked eventually, if not already. Why would I provide that information free of charge to anyone? I respect my privacy, and I'm glad that I live in a country where people are at least aware of the privacy issues.
Let's say that people's awareness of the privacy and need to protect private information is the only positive legacy from the memories of Gestapo and Stasi.
No thanks, anything that technically allows tracking will be tracked eventually, if not already. Why would I provide that information free of charge to anyone? I respect my privacy, and I'm glad that I live in a country where people are at least aware of the privacy issues.
Let's say that people's awareness of the privacy and need to protect private information is the only positive legacy from the memories of Gestapo and Stasi.
Of course, it's all fine and cool until health insurance starts [...]
Agreed. But digitalization of society is not something that can be stopped. Just by posting here on Hackernews, you left plenty of traces that can be mined.
We should demand from our governments that laws are put into place so that our data is not only protected, but controlled by ourselves.
Agreed. But digitalization of society is not something that can be stopped. Just by posting here on Hackernews, you left plenty of traces that can be mined.
We should demand from our governments that laws are put into place so that our data is not only protected, but controlled by ourselves.
I agree that we should push our government in that direction, but should also keep protecting our privacy ourselves whenever possible. If we can't avoid inevitable, we could at least postpone it for a decade or two.
There's an old (Russian?) saying that goes like: "Pray to the God, but keep swimming to the coast!"
There's an old (Russian?) saying that goes like: "Pray to the God, but keep swimming to the coast!"
I used to think like you, until I realized every aspect of my life was being recorded permanently by corporations and the NSA. Back to cash and anonymity, thank you.
> It's the 21st century.
So? I am me. Like some web frameworks I am opinionated, and unlike them I am not made of sugar, able to carry luggage, and able to carry cash around.
> I don't want to think about whether I should get 20 or 30 Euro from an ATM, let alone carry 100 Euro in my wallet. In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
That's good for you, but I don't have to really think about that much. Of course I always want to have a few tenners in my wallet, no thought required, I just do that when I pass by the bank. I also would have no problem with carrying 100€ in my wallet, since I tend to carry 1000€ worth of stuff in my DSLR bag anyway, which I take anywhere except shopping and places after dark (not because I'm afraid I might get robbed, but because I can't be bothered to carry around a flash/tripod). So another 100€ means nothing, and the real hassle of having your wallet stolen isn't really the cash, it's all the other stuff in it, no?
> In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
First off, technology is made by "me" for "me", I don't exist for it. It's not my purpose to give a specific technology a reason to exist - if I don't need it, and neither do others, it can just go shrivel up and die when the reference counter hits zero.
Secondly, wildly varying technology exists for wildly varying reasons: to make live easier for yourself and/or everyone, and to make life harder for yourself and/or others; to exploit people, for escapism, and so on. What "mundane and boring task" do Farmville or heroin make unnecessary? How is it desirable to make the task of, say, mass murder or putting people in internment camps, easier?
Doing simple calculations in my head, or knowing that I'll be making a bigger purchase soonish isn't "boring and mundane" to me, neither is rain or carrying luggage, which I find rather sublime and fun respectively, at least to a degree (heavy rain every day, or weights attached to my shoes, wouldn't be fun).
Do you know the movie "Wall-E"? I could barely stand it for all the kitsch, but that stuff about the fat human blobs zipping around on trays seems slightly relevant. Walking is boring, eating is boring, defecating is boring, washing yourself is boring, taking care of friendships is boring... no wait, all that is in the brain of the beholder, and personally I think life is made up of little things, and the supposedly big things are for the most part just big delusions. Which seems to be confirmed by the fact that most people I see around seem kinda unhappy or hysterical in their happiness, and to never notice things like sparrows or clouds. I pity them, and I fully expect them to consider me "weird", with their digital watches and sneakers with lights in the heels.
> That's because the checkout process in Germany is not optimized for bank card payments.
Which is where I am, and which is also a place built above sea level, so that's where I'll stay :P Truth be told, the Netherlands aren't exactly the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of the opposite of hobbitdom. I'm not saying that to be mean or snarky, but because that's what I honestly think. Seeing how this is about the reasons for Germans not using credit cards, and how I am one, here's my opinion, arrogant as it is. To be honest, I expected downvotes instead of upvotes, I think I would deserve them... wouldn't make me change my opinion though. Many people are already quite lame and getting lamer by the month, and like George Carlin I'm over here with this weird mixture of popcorn and hatred.
> Thank god, they have counters these days where they only allow bank cards.
Yeah, thank God for wall-to-wall tracking of every single expense I make, which happens every single time, while negative effects of carrying cash around are rather hypothetical.
So? I am me. Like some web frameworks I am opinionated, and unlike them I am not made of sugar, able to carry luggage, and able to carry cash around.
> I don't want to think about whether I should get 20 or 30 Euro from an ATM, let alone carry 100 Euro in my wallet. In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
That's good for you, but I don't have to really think about that much. Of course I always want to have a few tenners in my wallet, no thought required, I just do that when I pass by the bank. I also would have no problem with carrying 100€ in my wallet, since I tend to carry 1000€ worth of stuff in my DSLR bag anyway, which I take anywhere except shopping and places after dark (not because I'm afraid I might get robbed, but because I can't be bothered to carry around a flash/tripod). So another 100€ means nothing, and the real hassle of having your wallet stolen isn't really the cash, it's all the other stuff in it, no?
> In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
First off, technology is made by "me" for "me", I don't exist for it. It's not my purpose to give a specific technology a reason to exist - if I don't need it, and neither do others, it can just go shrivel up and die when the reference counter hits zero.
Secondly, wildly varying technology exists for wildly varying reasons: to make live easier for yourself and/or everyone, and to make life harder for yourself and/or others; to exploit people, for escapism, and so on. What "mundane and boring task" do Farmville or heroin make unnecessary? How is it desirable to make the task of, say, mass murder or putting people in internment camps, easier?
Doing simple calculations in my head, or knowing that I'll be making a bigger purchase soonish isn't "boring and mundane" to me, neither is rain or carrying luggage, which I find rather sublime and fun respectively, at least to a degree (heavy rain every day, or weights attached to my shoes, wouldn't be fun).
Do you know the movie "Wall-E"? I could barely stand it for all the kitsch, but that stuff about the fat human blobs zipping around on trays seems slightly relevant. Walking is boring, eating is boring, defecating is boring, washing yourself is boring, taking care of friendships is boring... no wait, all that is in the brain of the beholder, and personally I think life is made up of little things, and the supposedly big things are for the most part just big delusions. Which seems to be confirmed by the fact that most people I see around seem kinda unhappy or hysterical in their happiness, and to never notice things like sparrows or clouds. I pity them, and I fully expect them to consider me "weird", with their digital watches and sneakers with lights in the heels.
> That's because the checkout process in Germany is not optimized for bank card payments.
Which is where I am, and which is also a place built above sea level, so that's where I'll stay :P Truth be told, the Netherlands aren't exactly the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of the opposite of hobbitdom. I'm not saying that to be mean or snarky, but because that's what I honestly think. Seeing how this is about the reasons for Germans not using credit cards, and how I am one, here's my opinion, arrogant as it is. To be honest, I expected downvotes instead of upvotes, I think I would deserve them... wouldn't make me change my opinion though. Many people are already quite lame and getting lamer by the month, and like George Carlin I'm over here with this weird mixture of popcorn and hatred.
> Thank god, they have counters these days where they only allow bank cards.
Yeah, thank God for wall-to-wall tracking of every single expense I make, which happens every single time, while negative effects of carrying cash around are rather hypothetical.
You convinced me that paying with cash and carrying change around makes you happy.
The other reasons is that cash always works. I once found out during checkout in the supermarket that my card was blocked by my bank (probably because I once used an ATM which was hacked). It's not fun to stand around blocking the whole checkout process because you can't pay. Since that day I'm always keeping enough cash in my wallet to be able to pay without any cards.
Germans pay by card all the time (I think you know them as debit cards?), we just don't use credit cards, because there is no advantage of doing so. Every "giro" account comes with one, and you can use it at the ATM and at the cash register.
I think this is because historically, wire transfers between most banks in Germany have been easy and cheap for decades, while it is different in the US, as I understand it.
I think this is because historically, wire transfers between most banks in Germany have been easy and cheap for decades, while it is different in the US, as I understand it.
Wire (instant) transfers from consumer US bank accounts typically carry a $25/transaction fee, and in some cases can only be initiated by phone or in person.
Interestingly, Citi has a nice web interface for person-to-person ACH transfers (direct deposit), but it's not widely used and I don't think most other banks have it.
Interestingly, Citi has a nice web interface for person-to-person ACH transfers (direct deposit), but it's not widely used and I don't think most other banks have it.
Wow, $25 per transaction is insane!
So, just to make sure I don't get this wrong: in the US, most people can't login to their bank's website and transfer cash to someone else's account for free?
Its usually not instantaneous (I think EC is, though), but rarely takes more than 1-2 days between different banks.
Citibank's web interface is integrated with PopMoney which lets me send large transfers via ACH (3 days) or smaller overnight transfers to accounts I've interacted with before. I think some of the other large corporate banks have this. I've never heard of anyone using it. My dad works in the financial services sector and was stunned that such a thing even existed.
It would be impractical to use this for most payments because the recipient has no indication that the transaction is actually going to take place until at least the next business day.
When individuals buy from merchants in the US, they almost always use a MasterCard or Visa (sometimes attached to a checking account, sometimes to a line of credit) via magnetic swipe or by typing the number. Individuals settle with each other individuals (tutoring, babysitting, reimbursing tickets, etc) using paper checks or cash.
I believe there are some startups targeting person-to-person payments, but most involve transaction fees and/or or creating an account with your banking details, neither of which anyone wants.
It would be impractical to use this for most payments because the recipient has no indication that the transaction is actually going to take place until at least the next business day.
When individuals buy from merchants in the US, they almost always use a MasterCard or Visa (sometimes attached to a checking account, sometimes to a line of credit) via magnetic swipe or by typing the number. Individuals settle with each other individuals (tutoring, babysitting, reimbursing tickets, etc) using paper checks or cash.
I believe there are some startups targeting person-to-person payments, but most involve transaction fees and/or or creating an account with your banking details, neither of which anyone wants.
I'm German, and can confirm two things:
- Almost anyone that would be able to actually use a credit card online has a credit card
- Everyone i know dislikes credit cards, including me. They still have the correct stigma of paying with money you don't have and causing a housing crisis because of it; they're "american" and very "capitalist".
- Almost anyone that would be able to actually use a credit card online has a credit card
- Everyone i know dislikes credit cards, including me. They still have the correct stigma of paying with money you don't have and causing a housing crisis because of it; they're "american" and very "capitalist".
Credit cards in Germany are for the most part debit cards. You only pay an annual fee and the charges are deducted from your bank account at the end of the month. No credit involved apart from the late processing. There are some special laws in place for this I think which don't exist in other countries. On the other hand merchants pay a hefty fee for each transaction whereas EC/debit card fees are very low. That's why many merchants (especially outside tourist areas) don't accept CCs.
That's not quite accurate, as other comments pointed out. But even if no German resident ever used a credit card, the significance of this is that German-based merchants can start using Stripe to accept Internet payments from people all over the world.
Really?
I'm certain they hate the notion of credit too which has long been attributed to their post-war mindset.
Are other European notions similarly disposed towards credit (and thus credit cards), too?
I'm certain they hate the notion of credit too which has long been attributed to their post-war mindset.
Are other European notions similarly disposed towards credit (and thus credit cards), too?
Credit card usage isn't low here because Germans hate credit, it's because we simply have had better alternatives for ages. Instead of credit cards people use Electronic cash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash) in stores which is much cheaper for merchants, so they often don't even accept credit cards because of the fees. Online payments and payments of bills are usually done through direct withdrawals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_debit#Germany) with easy chargebacks.
I always wondered why the US is so opposed to direct debit? It is so much easier and safer than credit cards or sending cheques by mail.
The problem is that the rest of the world standardizes on credit cards. You cannot book a hotel or a conference without it. This is probably the only reason, why germans adopt credit cards: International travel.
The problem is that the rest of the world standardizes on credit cards. You cannot book a hotel or a conference without it. This is probably the only reason, why germans adopt credit cards: International travel.
You cannot book a hotel without a credit card? That's just incorrect.
Technically, you can. In practice, it's a different story.
The reservation won't be guaranteed, that is, you have to be there before a certain hour for your guarantee to work. After that, if a customer walked in and asked for a room, sorry.
Now try renting a car in the US without a credit card.
The reservation won't be guaranteed, that is, you have to be there before a certain hour for your guarantee to work. After that, if a customer walked in and asked for a room, sorry.
Now try renting a car in the US without a credit card.
" it's because we simply have had better alternatives for ages. Instead of credit cards people use Electronic cash"
Better? It's a debit card. Chip and Pin? Several other countries have it.
It may have smaller fees, still, some merchands only take it from a certain value.
Better? It's a debit card. Chip and Pin? Several other countries have it.
It may have smaller fees, still, some merchands only take it from a certain value.
What's the problem with debit cards? I like to have the money for all purchases withdrawn from my account as soon as possible, it gives me a nice overview of how much I actually have.
The advantage of using a credit card is that you get a 30-day free loan, paid for by people who can't keep up with their credit card payments.
If you feel guilty about being on the winning side of today's predatory, exploitative credit card system, by all means use a debit card instead.
And to those who constantly run a balance on their credit cards and never seem to get them paid off, you can always prove your intelligence by cutting the cards into little pieces and flushing them down the toilet. More here:
http://arachnoid.com/wrong/#Economics
If you feel guilty about being on the winning side of today's predatory, exploitative credit card system, by all means use a debit card instead.
And to those who constantly run a balance on their credit cards and never seem to get them paid off, you can always prove your intelligence by cutting the cards into little pieces and flushing them down the toilet. More here:
http://arachnoid.com/wrong/#Economics
In times of basically zero interest a 30-day free loan doesn't sound like a very convincing argument since I have to keep the money in an easily accessible account anyway to pay the bill at the end of the month.
> In times of basically zero interest a 30-day free loan doesn't sound like a very convincing argument ...
Look at it this way -- for 30 days, you have access to funds that the poor person doesn't. Interest or not, you have more financial latitude.
Also, people who automatically and fully pay off their cards every month tend also to be the sort of people who have most of their money in investments that yield reasonable interest returns (like equities), not zero-interest bank accounts. So for them, the saved money is kept in a worthwhile investment until the moment it's needed.
I personally think the difference between the financial condition of the rich and poor, and the choices each make, is terrible and unjust. But after I've empathized with the poor, I know which group I want to belong to.
Look at it this way -- for 30 days, you have access to funds that the poor person doesn't. Interest or not, you have more financial latitude.
Also, people who automatically and fully pay off their cards every month tend also to be the sort of people who have most of their money in investments that yield reasonable interest returns (like equities), not zero-interest bank accounts. So for them, the saved money is kept in a worthwhile investment until the moment it's needed.
I personally think the difference between the financial condition of the rich and poor, and the choices each make, is terrible and unjust. But after I've empathized with the poor, I know which group I want to belong to.
I stopped using my CC almost completely a while back. The reason is "simplify your life". Why should I keep track of several accounts when I can have only one? My life got a bit simpler since then, and I don't regret it.
About thirty years ago, before I had a credit card, I tried to rent a car at an airport, but they refused me because I didn't have a card. I didn't fully understand the details, but it seemed they had an easier time identifying you and getting paid if you possessed a credit card. And interestingly, what they were doing was technically illegal.
So I called a TV station news department and told them about it. They called the rental service, who naturally enough said, "Oh, no, that's not true!" I explained to the reporter that asking wasn't going to work -- he needed to go to the airport and try to rent a car without a card, with a hidden camera. He did, the ruse worked, he was flatly refused on camera, and it was a big story.
So I like a simple life too, but the combination of having a 30-day float and being able to do certain kinds of transactions that require a card, have resulted in my having one -- one! -- credit card.
So I called a TV station news department and told them about it. They called the rental service, who naturally enough said, "Oh, no, that's not true!" I explained to the reporter that asking wasn't going to work -- he needed to go to the airport and try to rent a car without a card, with a hidden camera. He did, the ruse worked, he was flatly refused on camera, and it was a big story.
So I like a simple life too, but the combination of having a 30-day float and being able to do certain kinds of transactions that require a card, have resulted in my having one -- one! -- credit card.
Did I say there's something wrong? I like Debit Cards as well.
Also wire transfers, which are also often used for online payment cost essentially nothing.
There is actually a major difference between the majority of German credit cards and, e.g., US credit cards, which fits nicely into your argument:
Most German credit cards are "not-revolving",i.e., at the end of the month the amount you spent with your credit card will be withdrawn automatically from your bank account. It is therefore much more like a debit card in concept than a credit card.
The only reason why credit cards are more used nowadays in Germany is because of their use in international online shopping (and when renting a car in the US, which is the reason why I had to get one).
Most German credit cards are "not-revolving",i.e., at the end of the month the amount you spent with your credit card will be withdrawn automatically from your bank account. It is therefore much more like a debit card in concept than a credit card.
The only reason why credit cards are more used nowadays in Germany is because of their use in international online shopping (and when renting a car in the US, which is the reason why I had to get one).
In general, yes. My friends in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and Switzerland all notoriously shy away from CC.
Interestingly my friend in Switzerland couldn't finance his car purchase. You either have to lease or buy the car in cash. Yes, full cash payment. For an American, that's baffling...our whole car industry is based off of credit (and perhaps quite indirectly related to it's demise.)
Interestingly my friend in Switzerland couldn't finance his car purchase. You either have to lease or buy the car in cash. Yes, full cash payment. For an American, that's baffling...our whole car industry is based off of credit (and perhaps quite indirectly related to it's demise.)
Just got accepted into the Australia Beta, its working awesome.
Thanks for mentioning this! I had completely missed the announcement. That's really exciting, I wonder if pin.net.au will adjust their pricing to match Stripe's. Good to have some healthy competition locally.
Pin will need to drop its prices to below stripe's or drastically improve the product. I started in integrating pin payments into my SaaS app and gave up when I realised pin would send an ugly email to my customers _every_ time I charged them. Ugh, no thanks.
D'oh, I had no idea, and here I am already having spent months talking to NAB in order to charge USD and support AMEX. Stripe seems a lot cheaper too in terms of fees.
Stripe AU supports AMEX and USD charges, right?
Stripe AU supports AMEX and USD charges, right?
Stripe AU supports AMEX (as well as Visa and MasterCard!), but is currently only for AUD charges. We are actively working on adding USD support, and hope to roll it out soon. Email me @ [email protected] if you would like a beta invite.
Thanks thairu, patrick has sent me an invite.
USD charging is definitely essential for SaaS selling to the US.
USD charging is definitely essential for SaaS selling to the US.
pin.net.au supports USD. Doesn't support AMEX yet though, which is a bit annoying.
Braintree does Visa, MC and AMEX - both in AUD and USD. Braintree in Australia uses a NAB account up back to allow multi-currency deposits, which is nice.
Stripe in Australia makes me very happy though, and I may have gone down that route for the brand alone if I hadn't already integrated Braintree into my app (with a nice library, to boot).
Stripe in Australia makes me very happy though, and I may have gone down that route for the brand alone if I hadn't already integrated Braintree into my app (with a nice library, to boot).
Braintree did not do AMEX in USD, last I talked to them a couple of months ago. How did you get this working? I'm very interested!
What is required for a client to use Stripe? A merchant account? We're using eWay for those with merchant accounts, and PIN/PayPal for small busineses without.
No need for a merchant account or anything like that -- Stripe handles everything from accepting the payment to depositing the money in your bank account.
Awesome, thanks for the answer.
Looks like we'll be integrating in Stripe into our eCommerce system for our clients once we get into the BETA. :)
Looks like we'll be integrating in Stripe into our eCommerce system for our clients once we get into the BETA. :)
This is fantastic news for german startups. I wish Stripe can expand to more countries around the world faster!
Anyone knows how easy would it be for them to expand to Dubai for example?
Anyone knows how easy would it be for them to expand to Dubai for example?
Honest question to everybody:
Would you trust your financial data (= growth data, etc.) to a company like Paymill that's owned by a clone factory (i.e. the Samwers') or do you think that's being paranoid?
EDIT: I wasn't asking for downvotes, I was asking for rational comments, explanations, thoughts.
Would you trust your financial data (= growth data, etc.) to a company like Paymill that's owned by a clone factory (i.e. the Samwers') or do you think that's being paranoid?
EDIT: I wasn't asking for downvotes, I was asking for rational comments, explanations, thoughts.
Hi, I asked them few questions and they seemed quite professional. Very German, asking for lots of paper, but that kind of make me feel safer.
And let's stop with this clone thing. If we are a community striving for execution, we should not be so annoying when people simply take ideas from somebody else and start executing.
And let's stop with this clone thing. If we are a community striving for execution, we should not be so annoying when people simply take ideas from somebody else and start executing.
I have no problem with cloning, everybody does it if we're being honest.
It's just that I'm not sure it's a good idea to give your business data to people whose main business model it is to look for the best ideas/markets/businesses and then to copy them.
To me, there seems to be a pretty obvious conflict of interest that might work against you.
It's just that I'm not sure it's a good idea to give your business data to people whose main business model it is to look for the best ideas/markets/businesses and then to copy them.
To me, there seems to be a pretty obvious conflict of interest that might work against you.
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I don't have anything against Paymill, but I think you may have a point there. The probability of someone who clones businesses for a living cloning yours is higher than of someone who doesn't. How much more, though, I couldn't say.
I disagree. Do you know who is going to buy stripe? No. You could very well end up in worst hands.
At least with Paymill you are clear on what you get. We have seen their execution already.
At least with Paymill you are clear on what you get. We have seen their execution already.
It is a good question, though in this case it could actually cut in the other direction. Stripe is a US company, which means that - from a German perspective - your data is less secure there. Think NSA and industrial espionage, obviously, but also think different data protection standards. The official legislation tends to be better in Europe when it comes to privacy, and this is especially true in Germany.
Well, Paymill is German and Stripe is based in the US, so from a trust viewpoint, I'd go with Paymill, maybe their customer data gets fleeced a bit less by the NSA than Stripe's.
Stripe has never participated in any kind of government surveillance program. Quite the opposite -- we're trying to figure out new ways to protect our users: https://stripe.com/blog/towards-transparency. As CEO, I'll do everything in my power to make sure that that remains the case. If you follow me on Twitter (I'm @patrickc), you'll notice that I'm no fan of this stuff.
Just to make this clear, I don't doubt your personal integrity.
However, I have lost faith in the ability of US-based companies using US-fiber and US datacenters to protect against NSA snooping.
I am not naive - I have no doubt that German fiber is monitored as well, but afaik LE could gain access to your servers and serve you a gag order - something they could not do over here.
So, my comment was in no way specific to Stripe - I don't trust Google or Apple either.
However, I have lost faith in the ability of US-based companies using US-fiber and US datacenters to protect against NSA snooping.
I am not naive - I have no doubt that German fiber is monitored as well, but afaik LE could gain access to your servers and serve you a gag order - something they could not do over here.
So, my comment was in no way specific to Stripe - I don't trust Google or Apple either.
Yeah, I think that's generally reasonable, and I totally see where you're coming from. (Though I do believe that even though we're in the US, Stripe will do a better job of guarding the privacy of our customers than the vast majority companies.)
Having said that, in the particular domain of electronic payments, I think that meaningful privacy is (sadly) a mostly unattainable goal: it seems safe to assume that the card companies themselves collaborate with all kinds of surveillance. Given that everything ultimately becomes a transaction on those networks, what happens at the edges matters less.
Having said that, in the particular domain of electronic payments, I think that meaningful privacy is (sadly) a mostly unattainable goal: it seems safe to assume that the card companies themselves collaborate with all kinds of surveillance. Given that everything ultimately becomes a transaction on those networks, what happens at the edges matters less.
Dont dream of that. The data get transfered to the card companies and that are 90% US or US controlled companies.
I was just about to go with Paymill. It's great to have one more option. Now the rest of Europe please.
What speaks against Paymill? Are there any problems with them? They support a lot more countries than Stripe right now.
Edit: Just read that its from the Samwers. Might be enough to wait for Stripe then.
Edit: Just read that its from the Samwers. Might be enough to wait for Stripe then.
When I tried to use them, they required me to mail in a bunch of paperwork. Stripe doesn't.
Yes thats a huge problem for Paymill, i write them this some time ago, the know it and want to change many things.
But the Problem is not Paymill, it are the acceptance company and many restrictions. I am not sure if stripe has an another way todo it in germany.
But the Problem is not Paymill, it are the acceptance company and many restrictions. I am not sure if stripe has an another way todo it in germany.
How does Stripe get away without the paperwork?
That's what I'm wondering too. They require zero paperwork, though, and Paymill did tell me that the paperwork they sent me was mandatory for all money-processing companies.
Stripe collects information from you before you can start using it -- you'll see us ask for this when you go to activate your account. But we've worked to make it as quick, painless and sensible as possible.
The sign-up process is part of the product, and we treat it that way. Onerous paperwork is not an inevitability.
The sign-up process is part of the product, and we treat it that way. Onerous paperwork is not an inevitability.
Well, I don't even remember you asking for it, so you must be doing something right. On the other hand, all I remember about Paymill is that they asked me for the info.
I think it is only possible when the money processing companies from stripe did not want the papers.
But on the other side this means, that stripe is less secure?
But on the other side this means, that stripe is less secure?
Guys seriously. There's nothing going against PAYMILL just because theyre a 'clone' company. Theyre working with 2 big acquirer banks which probably wouldnt do so if the company wasnt trustworthy. Might wanna think about that. Plus being available in 39 countries across Europe is more than beneficial for so many small business owners who previously did not have the chance to onboard with any other payment provider. But PAYMILL is there for them! Im a happy customer of theirs and have not experienced any kind of slight problem. In contrast, their support is very helpful, answeri ng all kinds of questions no matter how much youre asking. They even helped me generate my contract, adjusting it and sending it over to the bank for activation. So if you ask me - go for PAYMILL.
Yeah. So Paymill-sales has an account on the same day registered as yours and accidentally posts the same content as your post first ( http://cl.ly/image/3i0t1y233M0b ). Also, judging from your post history I'd say: this doesn't help Paymill in any way, quite the opposite really.
Troll detector went off? You claimed they are clones and someone just registered fake account to clone a positive comment about them.
Have you looked at her post history? Might as well turn it around and say; "someone just registered -an- account to posts positive comments about them"
> Guys seriously. There's nothing going against PAYMILL just because theyre a 'clone' company.
Nobody ever said that.
Nobody ever said that.
Guys seriously. There's nothing going against PAYMILL just because theyre a 'clone' company. Theyre working with 2 big acquirer banks which probably wouldnt do so if the company wasnt trustworthy. Might wanna think about that. Plus being available in 39 countries across Europe is more than beneficial for so many small business owners who previously did not have the chance to onboard with any other payment provider. But PAYMILL is there for them! Im a happy customer of theirs and have not experienced any kind of slight problem. In contrast, their support is very helpful, answeri ng all kinds of questions no matter how much youre asking. They even helped me generate my contract, adjusting it and sending it over to the bank for activation. So if you ask me - go for PAYMILL.
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Great to see the acceleration of roll out of counties ! DE does have lower CC usage, but I think it will be more use for DE businesses operating internationally to accept in EUR & USD.
btw. I threw together a handy tool for calculating the cost of a transaction. http://www.blackdog.ie/stripe/
edit : clarity
edit : clarity
Nice calculator; but it misses the currency conversion costs. You can't get $9.46 as a UK merchant - you get paid in £GBP and they add another 2% from mid-market rate - so $9.27 would be more accurate.
Thanks.
Stripe.com says Charges made in a currency for which you haven't connected a bank account will be converted to your default currency. A 2% fee applies for currency conversion, and all fees are calculated in the currency we transfer to you.
So you can avoid it by having an USD / EUR account. Or you have to pay this 2% fee. I will add a note to the page.
Stripe.com says Charges made in a currency for which you haven't connected a bank account will be converted to your default currency. A 2% fee applies for currency conversion, and all fees are calculated in the currency we transfer to you.
So you can avoid it by having an USD / EUR account. Or you have to pay this 2% fee. I will add a note to the page.
Not really; they only send USD via ACH currently (don't support wire transfer) so as a UK merchant there is no way to actually get paid $USD even if you have a $USD bank account.
Completely off-topic - but why does a consultancy company in Munich have a .ie domain? :-)
Because I'm Irish.
Good .de or .com domains are not exactly easy to get these days without paying ridiculous amounts of money to some domain squatter...
Guessing: "black doggie"?
What's so great about Stripe? What does it do that other payment processors don't? I don't get it.
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It's developer-friendly, very fast to get started and doesn't require a merchant account.
Ah, cool thanks.
To those who say "I almost went with PayMill, thank god Stripe is here now" don't forget that PayMill features direct debit. Depending on who your customers are this might be an important feature for you!
Direct debit can easily done by creating some CSV-style file without additional charges using FinTS/HBCI.
For most SaaS/e-product models "direct debit" is not an option because a customer can do a refund without a reason for at least 6 weeks. It also has no CVV2, so you can just abuse some charity bank details for a direct debit purchase. Good luck dealing with fraud.
For most SaaS/e-product models "direct debit" is not an option because a customer can do a refund without a reason for at least 6 weeks. It also has no CVV2, so you can just abuse some charity bank details for a direct debit purchase. Good luck dealing with fraud.
What criteria is Stripe looking for to get in the beta? Anyone know?
No criteria per se -- everyone is welcome. We're just rate-limiting it a bit to make sure that everyone has a good experience.
I've just sent my "notify me", but the response left me a little uncertain: "We’ll get back to you as soon as we launch in Germany.".
So... is this what I need to do to get into the beta? Or is there something else I need to do?
So... is this what I need to do to get into the beta? Or is there something else I need to do?
Fun to see stripe in europe, however in europe almost nobody pays by card, or let alone: even owns a credit card.
We pay by baking systems such as Ideal (in the netherlands).
We pay by baking systems such as Ideal (in the netherlands).
That really depends on the country, Europe is not homogenic like that. Here in the UK everyone has a debit card and almost everyone has a credit card and people use them to pay online a lot. In France paying with your Carte Bleue online is also pretty standard. Online debit/credit card payments are fairly common is Eastern Europe as well. I could go on.
Well, this statement is wrong. In France, at least, virtually everybody has a debit card and we use cards all the time.
However, closer to the point, Germans are known to use cash a lot, so it's interesting that Stripe launch there.
However, closer to the point, Germans are known to use cash a lot, so it's interesting that Stripe launch there.
In Scandinavia you use the card for everything so not sure what you're talking about.
While that was true some years ago, right now, in Germany almost everyone I know has a credit card, too. Some popular banks like the DKB hand it to you with no additional cost, perhaps to incentivize the usage of cards away from cash, which is still very prevalent.
You should read this: http://soimovedhere.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/stop-generalizi...
In Germany, mine and most of my friends' favorite is Sofort Überweisung[1]
[1]: https://www.sofort.com/eng-DE/
[1]: https://www.sofort.com/eng-DE/
Debit cards are quite prevalent here, rather than Credit i'd say.
Actually most people speak about credit card when they actually mean a debit one.
We refer to a "bank card" when we mean debit and "credit card" when we mean credit. YMMV :-)
I agree, in a similar vein I still call my debit card my "switch" out of habit.
In Europe, you can't generalise.
The countries that make up Europe are extremely diverse.
The countries that make up Europe are extremely diverse.
Oh hallelujah!
Do you guys usually just use Stripe API directly or do you use some kind of middleman (e.g. spreedly.com)?
Congrats to Stripe team. They have done a really good job, I find since they get it work in UK, they are expanding in a very fast pace for now (y)
Hope it will come to Northen EU soon :)
Northern Europe is on our roadmap. Please sign up at https://stripe.com/global to be notified when we launch there
Is 3D Secure supported?
Any plans for Stripe to serve startups based in South Africa?
South Africa is on our roadmap, but have no current ETA for when it will be available. Please sign up at https://stripe.com/global to be notified when we launch.