Proof School(proofschool.org)
proofschool.org
Proof School
http://www.proofschool.org/
13 comments
I hate to pile on, but perhaps the site creators are reading this and can get some constructive feedback on site improvement:
At least on my iPad (Chrome), I viewed the site and simply scrolled down to the bottom. After that, I had to click the back button 4 or 5 times to get back to HN. That is seriously broken from a usability standpoint. The act of scrolling should never trigger hard URL changes. If you're going to design a single-page, scrollable website (which can be great), you have to make sure the user can go back to where they came from with a single Back action.
At least on my iPad (Chrome), I viewed the site and simply scrolled down to the bottom. After that, I had to click the back button 4 or 5 times to get back to HN. That is seriously broken from a usability standpoint. The act of scrolling should never trigger hard URL changes. If you're going to design a single-page, scrollable website (which can be great), you have to make sure the user can go back to where they came from with a single Back action.
Hi, Dafeng from Strikingly here. We've fixed the issue. Thanks for the suggestion.
At the bottom of the page, the link[1] says "powered by Strikingly." I'm not sure that this is good advertising for SaaS that promises "gorgeous, mobile-optimized sites in minutes."
The founders of the school include mathematics teachers I know, and I think they are the real deal. I have had long conversations with one of those mathematicians at MathPath[2], which was a very good program for my oldest son, now a hacker.
[1] https://www.strikingly.com/?ref=logo&permalink=proofschool
[2] http://www.mathpath.org/
The founders of the school include mathematics teachers I know, and I think they are the real deal. I have had long conversations with one of those mathematicians at MathPath[2], which was a very good program for my oldest son, now a hacker.
[1] https://www.strikingly.com/?ref=logo&permalink=proofschool
[2] http://www.mathpath.org/
I have to admit it was pretty. Unusable, but pretty.
Thanks for the information that the math teachers involved are a good resource, and the link to Math Path. My son is only 8, but when he's old enough I will consider that.
Thanks for the information that the math teachers involved are a good resource, and the link to Math Path. My son is only 8, but when he's old enough I will consider that.
If your son is too young for MathPath, try looking at Epsilon Camp (http://epsiloncamp.org/).
Yeah, no.
My son has ADHD. While he loves learning, he's obviously disqualified by the section of the eligibility requirement that says, Children...who have behavioral issues that may hinder their work or the work of others, should not apply.
I want to find opportunities for him to pursue his interests. I'm not trying to raise a prodigy.
My son has ADHD. While he loves learning, he's obviously disqualified by the section of the eligibility requirement that says, Children...who have behavioral issues that may hinder their work or the work of others, should not apply.
I want to find opportunities for him to pursue his interests. I'm not trying to raise a prodigy.
Agreed on the worst usability for a web-site I've used in a long time. Flash restaurant web-sites are easier than this. Just awful.
Also, I find it quite weird that the site is cleary designed to be very high-quality, but the profile pictures are very low resolution.
Re: return to prev page --
The pressing back multiple times issue appears to be an iPad only bug. Something to look more into!
Agreed. the site is nearly unviewable on my phone. And sadly, it offers nearly nothing in substantive content.
It loaded pretty quickly for me, but it is probably not under heavy load any more.
The page is smoothly scrolling now.
The page is smoothly scrolling now.
Agreed: I'm not going to click on the down arrow just to read the next sentence or 2.
This looks like a wonderful initiative. I hope they succeed, I always have hope that we it is possible to offer some alternative to our mainstream education, which can be painful if you fall outside of the mainstream.
As a side note it's also really lovely to read something uplifting here on HN. I am not asking to stop featuring PRISM stories etc., they are very important. But it seems easy to forget that there are bunches of smart curious people around who yearn to learn and to teach interesting things. Thank god for them :)
As a side note it's also really lovely to read something uplifting here on HN. I am not asking to stop featuring PRISM stories etc., they are very important. But it seems easy to forget that there are bunches of smart curious people around who yearn to learn and to teach interesting things. Thank god for them :)
I'd love to see this get off the ground. Unfortunately, it's really vague what `this' is right now. Is this a high school replacement? Is this a summer camp? Is it a boarding school? All I can tell are that some legitimately awesome math people want to make another cool math thing.
"DOWNTOWN SF. 2015. QED."
As far as I know, this isn't an appropriate use of QED.
As far as I know, this isn't an appropriate use of QED.
And among actual mathematicians the Halmos tombstone is more popular nowadays, anyway. It feels less haughty.
The proof school graphic logo incorporates a halmos - and creates a stand-alone "squaring the circle" logo for the site favicon, for example.
No. Just no. I am a math graduate student. I did my undergrad in India where curriculum is specialized and rigid. Long story short, I learned only mathematics. I am very good at math, but now I regret learning more CS topics. I feel like specializing too early can lead to a pretty unhappy life ahead for some.
A better idea would be to start specialized science schools for over-achieving kids. oh. wait. that's already done.
A better idea would be to start specialized science schools for over-achieving kids. oh. wait. that's already done.
For me CS was part of math. But I see what you mean.
You might enjoy Tom Korner's book, The Pleasure of Counting, which weaves mathematics and history.
You might enjoy Tom Korner's book, The Pleasure of Counting, which weaves mathematics and history.
I think this is great to encourage math based education and to give kids something to aspire to. I know a lot of kids who did "math camp" who also credit that as giving them an impulse to learn more.
But I think the same problem that elite colleges face also exists here: If your school's graduates are the cream of the crop of your society / field, is it because your education caused them to be or is it because you selected the cream of the crop to begin with?
So, I'd like to hijack this thread to focus your attention on another tangentially related problem: Teaching people who don't self-identify as "math kids". I think these are the low hanging fruit that, if improved, would improve society as a whole.
What I often see with people who say "I can't do math" is a shaky understanding of true basics. Kids will cross-multiply an equation to simplify it but they won't know why they're doing it or why it works. Then, they'll pass tests because they can do the basic algorithm. Now they think they know it and their teachers think they know it, and they move on to a different subject. Conceptually, the new stuff piles on top of the old stuff and so they have no hope of understanding what is going on, OR they further the "see question type x, apply algorithm y" mentality until it collapses.
So, I'd love to see a "learn math the hard way" where people can iteratively learn the fundamentals of arithmetic, algebra, and basic proofs. What I love about that series is that it's iterative to a fault. Every section is tens of experiments with a very simple concept. What if I use it this way? What if I stick in a string? What if I spell it wrong?
It teaches concepts at a slow enough pace that anyone can catch a conceptual leap that'd otherwise be undecipherable and confusing to beginners. It teaches that experimental mindset. It can get boring if you already know that part, but you can skip it if you like.
The part that I don't know what to do about is when you fast forward 10 years and you try to correct faulty education, and people balk at you for teaching them "easy stuff they already know" and not the more complicated topic that they're currently concerned with.
But I think the same problem that elite colleges face also exists here: If your school's graduates are the cream of the crop of your society / field, is it because your education caused them to be or is it because you selected the cream of the crop to begin with?
So, I'd like to hijack this thread to focus your attention on another tangentially related problem: Teaching people who don't self-identify as "math kids". I think these are the low hanging fruit that, if improved, would improve society as a whole.
What I often see with people who say "I can't do math" is a shaky understanding of true basics. Kids will cross-multiply an equation to simplify it but they won't know why they're doing it or why it works. Then, they'll pass tests because they can do the basic algorithm. Now they think they know it and their teachers think they know it, and they move on to a different subject. Conceptually, the new stuff piles on top of the old stuff and so they have no hope of understanding what is going on, OR they further the "see question type x, apply algorithm y" mentality until it collapses.
So, I'd love to see a "learn math the hard way" where people can iteratively learn the fundamentals of arithmetic, algebra, and basic proofs. What I love about that series is that it's iterative to a fault. Every section is tens of experiments with a very simple concept. What if I use it this way? What if I stick in a string? What if I spell it wrong?
It teaches concepts at a slow enough pace that anyone can catch a conceptual leap that'd otherwise be undecipherable and confusing to beginners. It teaches that experimental mindset. It can get boring if you already know that part, but you can skip it if you like.
The part that I don't know what to do about is when you fast forward 10 years and you try to correct faulty education, and people balk at you for teaching them "easy stuff they already know" and not the more complicated topic that they're currently concerned with.
it's funny, I was thinking just today, if I could restructure undergraduate science education, but strictly to cater to students with elite science potential, how would I do it?
1) Students must take an online entrance exam prior to arriving, there are two very difficult 20 minute questions in select fields (mechanics, e&m, wave mechanics, molecular bio, cell bio, chemistry, logic, algebra, calculus, theoretical CS) that test cognitive potential (not straight facts), e.g. for chemistry chemistry, "imagine that electrons could have spin state +1/2, 0, and -1/2. Describe some chemical properties of the first twelve elements." You must pass 2/3 non-math categories and logic + 1 math category.
2) Upon arrival, there are no seminars. Students must attend classes for subjects they did not pass. Classes consist of weekly close readings of relevant historical papers, group study encouraged (this would be good for the professors, too). Deficiencies can be corrected by online resources and getting help from friends (co-teaching). Professors would be encouraged to coordinate topics so that material would be repeated from week to week.
3) First year students would be required to apprentice in the labs of subjects they are NOT interested in studying. I.E you declare "ochem or bio", and spend your first year apprenticing in physics or pchem. Second year students begin apprenticeships in labs they might want to work for, and in third and fourth year students work full time in lab.
4) School runs an enrichment math-and-science focussed 'prep boarding high school' exclusively for underprivileged students. Classes are primarily taught by undergrads and grad students with supervision from professional educators.
5) Other courses required: philosophy of science, a half year of literature, a half year of history, and two years of practical computer programming (which could be exempted by a gruelling proficiency exam).
6) students are required to (and given a stipend to) achieve mastery in one non-scientific pursuit. This could include: literature, foreign language, social or artistic dance, visual arts, etc.
7) professors would be required to take the exams, allowed to fail any of the exams, except those in their own subject, when they start but, would be required to attend one class a year to be able to solve an exam previously failed. They get three tries.
1) Students must take an online entrance exam prior to arriving, there are two very difficult 20 minute questions in select fields (mechanics, e&m, wave mechanics, molecular bio, cell bio, chemistry, logic, algebra, calculus, theoretical CS) that test cognitive potential (not straight facts), e.g. for chemistry chemistry, "imagine that electrons could have spin state +1/2, 0, and -1/2. Describe some chemical properties of the first twelve elements." You must pass 2/3 non-math categories and logic + 1 math category.
2) Upon arrival, there are no seminars. Students must attend classes for subjects they did not pass. Classes consist of weekly close readings of relevant historical papers, group study encouraged (this would be good for the professors, too). Deficiencies can be corrected by online resources and getting help from friends (co-teaching). Professors would be encouraged to coordinate topics so that material would be repeated from week to week.
3) First year students would be required to apprentice in the labs of subjects they are NOT interested in studying. I.E you declare "ochem or bio", and spend your first year apprenticing in physics or pchem. Second year students begin apprenticeships in labs they might want to work for, and in third and fourth year students work full time in lab.
4) School runs an enrichment math-and-science focussed 'prep boarding high school' exclusively for underprivileged students. Classes are primarily taught by undergrads and grad students with supervision from professional educators.
5) Other courses required: philosophy of science, a half year of literature, a half year of history, and two years of practical computer programming (which could be exempted by a gruelling proficiency exam).
6) students are required to (and given a stipend to) achieve mastery in one non-scientific pursuit. This could include: literature, foreign language, social or artistic dance, visual arts, etc.
7) professors would be required to take the exams, allowed to fail any of the exams, except those in their own subject, when they start but, would be required to attend one class a year to be able to solve an exam previously failed. They get three tries.
Bit of a stretch, but when I read the title, I thought it was going to be a satire about how the main functions of schools now days seems to be social proof and nothing else (PROOF school!).
Pretty much anything you learn in school, you can learn on your own or with a much cheaper tutor. We only go to school so that we can say we have a 'background' on a subject, when really, we went to class hungover or slept through the passionless lectures. The real learning happened in the library when we read the textbooks ourselves.
Kind of what the Soylent guy is going through. He probably knows a lot about biology and human physiology from self-teaching, but because he 'doesn't have a background' (i.e. didn't sit through 4 years of ineffective lectures), society doesn't give him any credibility. I wonder if there is another way we can scale 'proof' without having to go through that waste of time we call college.
Pretty much anything you learn in school, you can learn on your own or with a much cheaper tutor. We only go to school so that we can say we have a 'background' on a subject, when really, we went to class hungover or slept through the passionless lectures. The real learning happened in the library when we read the textbooks ourselves.
Kind of what the Soylent guy is going through. He probably knows a lot about biology and human physiology from self-teaching, but because he 'doesn't have a background' (i.e. didn't sit through 4 years of ineffective lectures), society doesn't give him any credibility. I wonder if there is another way we can scale 'proof' without having to go through that waste of time we call college.
If you have been interested in math contests in middle and high school,you will clearly recognize the star calibre of some people on that page.I believe this is quite similar to Art of Problem Solving(AoPS).[1]
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/
I wish we could stop propagating this silly "math kid", "non math person" memes. I've seen so many smart people buying into this bogus idea of 'math kid' and dropping out of studying math bases fields of study thinking that they are not a 'math kid'
I hate to say it, but proofschool is a really bad name for this.
Thinking back to being a kid, I would not like to tell my peer group that I was going to proofschool, as the obvious mockery available from that name would be merciless.
Thinking back to being a kid, I would not like to tell my peer group that I was going to proofschool, as the obvious mockery available from that name would be merciless.
I don't think there is a way to tell your 7th grade peers you are going to a math camp for the summer that wouldn't end in mockery.
I still think that names for things like this should be run past a focus group of bullies to see which ones should be avoided.
Proofschool only needs to drop an r to become an abusive taunt while still sounding very similar to the original. It is a linguistic gift to your average bully.
Proofschool only needs to drop an r to become an abusive taunt while still sounding very similar to the original. It is a linguistic gift to your average bully.
I know counterexamples. Indeed, I know counterexamples for even younger children.
http://www.epsiloncamp.org/
http://www.epsiloncamp.org/
If you are doing upper level college math as a 7th grader, you probably don't have a peer group in your school. If you are 5+ grades ahead in math, it is unlikely you are a socially typical kid. This is why CTY, math camps, magnet schools, and such are useful. Gifted kids need a age appropriate peer group that doesn't exist in typical schools.
What's this "for kids" tripe? I thought this was going to be a dev bootcamp-style math school for adults, now that would be nice!
Quick response from Proof School co-founder:
Can't comment on all the critiques here, but thank you for them, especially those intended to be constructive--the board of directors and advisory board members will consider some of points made here. If you haven't already, I encourage you to check out who's supporting Proof School. We are fortunate to have their backing and advice.
First, to user interface... the pitch deck format of the current website is meant more as a landing page to pique curiosity and to solicit interest--it will change to a more familiar UX soon. Apologies if it's slow or glitchy--we're working on it. Go easy, guys!
Let me tell you a little more about Proof School, opening to students in 2015. The mission of the school is to attract students who self-identify as "math kids"--it will not be easy to get in. We're looking for kids who may not see their peers except at summer math camps or at math circles, Julia Robinson Math Festivals, or math and CS events/contests at universities, MSRI and AIM during the school year, kids whose friends (some, at least) will wish they could go to Proof School, too, because the name says it all and they get it, kids who at 11, 12, 13, 14 are doing college and graduate level mathematics... and want to do it with kids and adults like them all year round, not just once in a while. These math kids are out there, and the response from them, their parents and other adult "math kids" who wish they'd had a Proof School when they were growing up is, frankly, massive. Here's our mission statement: PROOF SCHOOL WILL OFFER AN UNRIVALED EDUCATION TO YOUNG PEOPLE WHO EXCEL AT AND HAVE A PASSION FOR MATHEMATICS WHILE EQUIPPING THEM WITH KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS AND CHARACTER FOR SUCCESS IN LIFE.
Proof School will be elite but not elitist; no one who qualifies will be turned away because of financial need. It can also not only be about math: we will be offering a complete, UC A-G accredited curriculum, plus an explicit social/emotional learning (SEL) and mindfulness program, and partnering with some of the finest educational and cultural programs the Bay Area has to offer so that we educate the whole child. Math and CS will in some ways be the easy part, with teachers, professors, visiting instructors and peers teaching and learning from each other all in the mix. By contrast, we've identified the need to recruit the best teachers and academic leaders in the arts, hard sciences and humanities as our most pressing need going forward.
What more can I tell you... We're launching a "Math Community Hub" in downtown SF in 2014 to get us in synch with academic and admissions calendars, pulling together all people interested in math at all levels. There's lots more, but I won't be able to respond to more comments here on HN (I've got a school to build!). If you'd like to add your great ideas to our efforts, please send me an email at ibrown[at]proofschool.org. Also, please have a look at William Thurston's paper "On Proofs and Progress in Mathematics" here--just great: http://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236v1.pdf
Many thanks for the feedback, Ian
Can't comment on all the critiques here, but thank you for them, especially those intended to be constructive--the board of directors and advisory board members will consider some of points made here. If you haven't already, I encourage you to check out who's supporting Proof School. We are fortunate to have their backing and advice.
First, to user interface... the pitch deck format of the current website is meant more as a landing page to pique curiosity and to solicit interest--it will change to a more familiar UX soon. Apologies if it's slow or glitchy--we're working on it. Go easy, guys!
Let me tell you a little more about Proof School, opening to students in 2015. The mission of the school is to attract students who self-identify as "math kids"--it will not be easy to get in. We're looking for kids who may not see their peers except at summer math camps or at math circles, Julia Robinson Math Festivals, or math and CS events/contests at universities, MSRI and AIM during the school year, kids whose friends (some, at least) will wish they could go to Proof School, too, because the name says it all and they get it, kids who at 11, 12, 13, 14 are doing college and graduate level mathematics... and want to do it with kids and adults like them all year round, not just once in a while. These math kids are out there, and the response from them, their parents and other adult "math kids" who wish they'd had a Proof School when they were growing up is, frankly, massive. Here's our mission statement: PROOF SCHOOL WILL OFFER AN UNRIVALED EDUCATION TO YOUNG PEOPLE WHO EXCEL AT AND HAVE A PASSION FOR MATHEMATICS WHILE EQUIPPING THEM WITH KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS AND CHARACTER FOR SUCCESS IN LIFE.
Proof School will be elite but not elitist; no one who qualifies will be turned away because of financial need. It can also not only be about math: we will be offering a complete, UC A-G accredited curriculum, plus an explicit social/emotional learning (SEL) and mindfulness program, and partnering with some of the finest educational and cultural programs the Bay Area has to offer so that we educate the whole child. Math and CS will in some ways be the easy part, with teachers, professors, visiting instructors and peers teaching and learning from each other all in the mix. By contrast, we've identified the need to recruit the best teachers and academic leaders in the arts, hard sciences and humanities as our most pressing need going forward.
What more can I tell you... We're launching a "Math Community Hub" in downtown SF in 2014 to get us in synch with academic and admissions calendars, pulling together all people interested in math at all levels. There's lots more, but I won't be able to respond to more comments here on HN (I've got a school to build!). If you'd like to add your great ideas to our efforts, please send me an email at ibrown[at]proofschool.org. Also, please have a look at William Thurston's paper "On Proofs and Progress in Mathematics" here--just great: http://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236v1.pdf
Many thanks for the feedback, Ian
Takes forever to load. Unreadable until loaded. Once loaded there is very little content per page. Except the one giving bios, which is unreadable because all of the usual methods of scrolling jump to the following page rather than scrolling smoothly.
Any technical parents with kids in the right age are simply not going to read this. And if they do read it, they will be left with no idea what it is and whether it is useful. (I say "they" because my kids are still too young.)