Genetic Fitness May Explain Why Intelligent People Are Often Healthier(medicalnewstoday.com)
medicalnewstoday.com
Genetic Fitness May Explain Why Intelligent People Are Often Healthier
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/150404.php
12 comments
> "Genetic fitness" was at the heart of every terrible ideology of the past century. Watch out for this type of thinking. Its the first step to a place you don't want to be....
Uhh, what? I can't believe no one here has challenged you on this. There are lots of terrible ideologies that have nothing to do with genetics or genetic fitness. And then there are ideologies that carry out racist agendas in the name of something vaguely genetic, but in reality are just one group of people scapegoating and killing a group that looks different. It's hard to imagine Genetic Fitness seldom plays a part in the day to day thinking of people executing pogrom.
And westerners by the stadiumload have given their doctors permission to engage in genetic fitness decisions with human lives, attempting to select the most viable embryos (and increasingly as the technology matures, the embryos with the greatest chance of expressing desired traits). Heck, these doctors abort fetuses by the half-dozen at a time by a selection process that's half-chance, a bit of science and the parent's biases and preferences. It's called In Vitro Fertilization, and society hasn't come crashing around our ears just yet.
What's truly dangerous and most likely to result in immediate violence is reactionary genetics = eugenics statements and people who equate any kind of genetic fitness propositions with Hitler.
Uhh, what? I can't believe no one here has challenged you on this. There are lots of terrible ideologies that have nothing to do with genetics or genetic fitness. And then there are ideologies that carry out racist agendas in the name of something vaguely genetic, but in reality are just one group of people scapegoating and killing a group that looks different. It's hard to imagine Genetic Fitness seldom plays a part in the day to day thinking of people executing pogrom.
And westerners by the stadiumload have given their doctors permission to engage in genetic fitness decisions with human lives, attempting to select the most viable embryos (and increasingly as the technology matures, the embryos with the greatest chance of expressing desired traits). Heck, these doctors abort fetuses by the half-dozen at a time by a selection process that's half-chance, a bit of science and the parent's biases and preferences. It's called In Vitro Fertilization, and society hasn't come crashing around our ears just yet.
What's truly dangerous and most likely to result in immediate violence is reactionary genetics = eugenics statements and people who equate any kind of genetic fitness propositions with Hitler.
Reverse mussollini fallacy. Mussollini also made the trains go on time, so that must be bad, right?
"Genetic fitness" as a theory may or may not be true. But the fact that the Nazis based their ideology on itdoes not make it false.
Incidentally, every terrible ideology? Including communism and radical islam?
"Genetic fitness" as a theory may or may not be true. But the fact that the Nazis based their ideology on itdoes not make it false.
Incidentally, every terrible ideology? Including communism and radical islam?
Awesome, let's compare communism to terrorists! Let's edit the history books and paint some explosive jackets onto those philosophers. God forbid the working class ever took it upon themselves to get what they needed by communism or by unionism, it's so patently disgusting is it?
I suppose you'd have been one of the people fighting tooth and limb to keep shanghaiing legal. God forbid people actually want to work for fair compensation for their work. DISGUSTING!
I suppose you'd have been one of the people fighting tooth and limb to keep shanghaiing legal. God forbid people actually want to work for fair compensation for their work. DISGUSTING!
"Genetic fitness" was at the heart of every terrible ideology of the past century.
Yes. And "genetic fitness" is very ill-defined here.
Yes. And "genetic fitness" is very ill-defined here.
"Genetic fitness" was at the heart of every terrible ideology of the past century.
Except for the worst.
Except for the worst.
Oh, yeesh, a Gottfredson publication in the journal Intelligence. The obligatory link for any discussion of a report on a research result like that is the article by Peter Norvig, director of research at Google, on how to interpret scientific research.
http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html
Check each news story you read for how many of the important issues in interpreting research are NOT discussed in the story.
http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html
Check each news story you read for how many of the important issues in interpreting research are NOT discussed in the story.
Can you expand on what in particular is wrong with this research? I want to hear a critique of the argument not the source.
One point that strikes me is that they seem to be implying that the genetics are directly responsible for worse health, whereas all they have shown is a correlation between a few random factors and some numbers on an intelligence test.
They are relying on other studies that show a correlation between health and intelligence to conclude that people with genetic factors have worse intelligence and hence worse health. But we don't know if poor health leads to poor intelligence or vice versa (or neither), so their chain of causation may not even exist. Likewise, those studies presumably applied to the general population; maybe people with club feet are an exception?
Also note that the researchers gave the subjects a number of physical tests in addition to asking about the genetic factors, but they only chose to report on the correlation in mental tests; if you are trying to show a correlation between genetic factors and general health, why not use the health tests directly and not need to argue via intelligence? If it turns out that the mental tests were correlated to the factors, but the physical tests weren't, then they have actually found a group of people for which intelligence and health is not correlated, which actually disproves their theory.
Arden explained that while she and her team agreed that factors such as poverty and looking after one's health also make a difference to health, this study, which the authors describe as a "proof of concept", shows there could also be a genetic factor which warrants further investigation.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that poor intelligence causes poor health. It's entirely possible that the subjects' genetic factors had zero direct influence on their intelligence, but the fact that they grew up "funny-looking" caused them to have less income or to perform poorly in school, which indirectly caused the lack of intelligence. This means the problem could be corrected entirely by devoting more resources to learning or by having the subjects undergo cosmetic surgery -- a big hole in the researchers' theory of a "genetic fitness factor" that is somehow causing both externally visible defects as well as internal health problems.
Edit: And this:
The researchers then compiled an index of physical health by aggregating "abnormality counts" in 8 categories and by using a statistical tool called regression analysis they were able to show that intelligence was a signficant positive predictor of 6 of the 8 categories.
Why would they aggregate counts into categories? Perhaps because none of the individual abnormalities correlated strongly enough with the intelligence tests? (Everyone knows you can redistrict an evenly divided state to favor a particular party...)
Never mind that some of these abnormalities are conditional on lifestyle, which is already correlated with intelligence. (Who is more likely to discover they are slightly predisposed to a hernia -- a college professor or a dock worker? A kid who got beat up a lot is more likely to have a malformed nose -- is he more or less likely to have a quality education?)
And it would be pretty funny if those other two categories were significant negative predictors -- e.g. people with club feet turned out to be more intelligent than the general population and hence healthier.
And, of course, the sample population is heavily biased: They're all Vietnam-era vets. The study leaves out everyone whose malformities were too great for them to serve as well as everyone who was smart or well-placed enough to get out of the draft.
(This may all be addressed in the paper, but I'm not paying $30 to find out.)
They are relying on other studies that show a correlation between health and intelligence to conclude that people with genetic factors have worse intelligence and hence worse health. But we don't know if poor health leads to poor intelligence or vice versa (or neither), so their chain of causation may not even exist. Likewise, those studies presumably applied to the general population; maybe people with club feet are an exception?
Also note that the researchers gave the subjects a number of physical tests in addition to asking about the genetic factors, but they only chose to report on the correlation in mental tests; if you are trying to show a correlation between genetic factors and general health, why not use the health tests directly and not need to argue via intelligence? If it turns out that the mental tests were correlated to the factors, but the physical tests weren't, then they have actually found a group of people for which intelligence and health is not correlated, which actually disproves their theory.
Arden explained that while she and her team agreed that factors such as poverty and looking after one's health also make a difference to health, this study, which the authors describe as a "proof of concept", shows there could also be a genetic factor which warrants further investigation.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that poor intelligence causes poor health. It's entirely possible that the subjects' genetic factors had zero direct influence on their intelligence, but the fact that they grew up "funny-looking" caused them to have less income or to perform poorly in school, which indirectly caused the lack of intelligence. This means the problem could be corrected entirely by devoting more resources to learning or by having the subjects undergo cosmetic surgery -- a big hole in the researchers' theory of a "genetic fitness factor" that is somehow causing both externally visible defects as well as internal health problems.
Edit: And this:
The researchers then compiled an index of physical health by aggregating "abnormality counts" in 8 categories and by using a statistical tool called regression analysis they were able to show that intelligence was a signficant positive predictor of 6 of the 8 categories.
Why would they aggregate counts into categories? Perhaps because none of the individual abnormalities correlated strongly enough with the intelligence tests? (Everyone knows you can redistrict an evenly divided state to favor a particular party...)
Never mind that some of these abnormalities are conditional on lifestyle, which is already correlated with intelligence. (Who is more likely to discover they are slightly predisposed to a hernia -- a college professor or a dock worker? A kid who got beat up a lot is more likely to have a malformed nose -- is he more or less likely to have a quality education?)
And it would be pretty funny if those other two categories were significant negative predictors -- e.g. people with club feet turned out to be more intelligent than the general population and hence healthier.
And, of course, the sample population is heavily biased: They're all Vietnam-era vets. The study leaves out everyone whose malformities were too great for them to serve as well as everyone who was smart or well-placed enough to get out of the draft.
(This may all be addressed in the paper, but I'm not paying $30 to find out.)
Can you expand on what in particular is wrong with this research?
I commend you and upvote for asking the follow-up question. I am familiar with the journal, and with one of the authors of paper mentioned in the submitted article, and while you were asking, I was reading the abstract of the paper to be as familiar with that as I can before the paper is formally published.
I'll adopt the other reply you received to constitute a large part of my reply. I would further add, mentioning a point that I learned from a geneticist, that there is no mention of genes here. Most purportedly "genetic" studies of IQ and the relationship between IQ and something else use pre-Mendelian correlational methods, and never get to the level of detail of identifying genes. Such studies show a lot less about causation than most members of the general public might guess about such nonexperimental studies. And of course the chief problem here is that the study didn't have an experimental design, but was a correlational observational study done by a researcher who admits, in the submitted article, having a preconceived notion of what the relationship would be.
Thanks for asking.
I commend you and upvote for asking the follow-up question. I am familiar with the journal, and with one of the authors of paper mentioned in the submitted article, and while you were asking, I was reading the abstract of the paper to be as familiar with that as I can before the paper is formally published.
I'll adopt the other reply you received to constitute a large part of my reply. I would further add, mentioning a point that I learned from a geneticist, that there is no mention of genes here. Most purportedly "genetic" studies of IQ and the relationship between IQ and something else use pre-Mendelian correlational methods, and never get to the level of detail of identifying genes. Such studies show a lot less about causation than most members of the general public might guess about such nonexperimental studies. And of course the chief problem here is that the study didn't have an experimental design, but was a correlational observational study done by a researcher who admits, in the submitted article, having a preconceived notion of what the relationship would be.
Thanks for asking.
This strikes me as a really weird hypothesis. The idea of some over-arching "fitness factor" existing outside of the huge variety of genetic traits that apply to aspects of physical and mental ability sounds like comic-book science.
Should be easy once we liberalize the laws on abortion. Hmm... but people might object to their less fit children being eliminated....
Better not tell them. We'll just let the Doctors make the decisions. They always know best anyway. After all, why else would we give them white coats?
"Genetic fitness" was at the heart of every terrible ideology of the past century. Watch out for this type of thinking. Its the first step to a place you don't want to be....