What I learned about women & business today
10 comments
Thank you, Alex, for posting this. I learned some surprising facts about women in business. Your ruminations were also original and thought provoking. I am a business woman who will be hitting the submit button on YC very soon. Wish me luck :-)
The comments you brought back from your class were a surprise. My own experience would contradict most of the points on your list. But then again, other women in business are a mystery to me too. I had very limited experience working with women in a professional setting. I am usually the only woman, or there are only 2 or 3 others in a room full of people. I feel awkward and don't know how to behave during those few occasions when I have to work closely with a woman. I have many women friends, with whom I have warm, close relationships. But I can't think of any close women business contacts. On the other hand, I fell totally comfortable in most working situations where I am surrounded by men. I have many, close business contacts who are men. :)
I would like to thank GreenDestiny for his comment as well. The parallel between the faithful-black-servant image and the [bitchy, ice-queen] power-woman image hit home. It reminds me of writings by Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. (supreme court justice, fighter of discrimination towards blacks). His central thesis in life was that the dissident-minority group needs to be heard. Privately, he felt the majority-power group should rightfully enjoy all the fruits of their power while it lasts. But he fought for the minority because he strongly believed that the majority (and the society as a whole) is made richer by the effort expanded to refute (keep down) the minority. The majority is forced to introduce new ideas into their thoughts and hone the rhetoric that justifies their privilege.
The comments you brought back from your class were a surprise. My own experience would contradict most of the points on your list. But then again, other women in business are a mystery to me too. I had very limited experience working with women in a professional setting. I am usually the only woman, or there are only 2 or 3 others in a room full of people. I feel awkward and don't know how to behave during those few occasions when I have to work closely with a woman. I have many women friends, with whom I have warm, close relationships. But I can't think of any close women business contacts. On the other hand, I fell totally comfortable in most working situations where I am surrounded by men. I have many, close business contacts who are men. :)
I would like to thank GreenDestiny for his comment as well. The parallel between the faithful-black-servant image and the [bitchy, ice-queen] power-woman image hit home. It reminds me of writings by Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. (supreme court justice, fighter of discrimination towards blacks). His central thesis in life was that the dissident-minority group needs to be heard. Privately, he felt the majority-power group should rightfully enjoy all the fruits of their power while it lasts. But he fought for the minority because he strongly believed that the majority (and the society as a whole) is made richer by the effort expanded to refute (keep down) the minority. The majority is forced to introduce new ideas into their thoughts and hone the rhetoric that justifies their privilege.
Good luck with your app!
That said, how do you reconcile Holmes' beliefs about minorities with his role as the father of the American eugenics movement?
That said, how do you reconcile Holmes' beliefs about minorities with his role as the father of the American eugenics movement?
Holmes' beliefs were consistent: some people will have awful lives because of the circumstances of their birth, so he wanted ot 1) mitigate the awful, and 2) reduce the number of people born into such circumstances.
I am not a woman, just someone who has been around enough gender studies conversations to comment. :)
"Many of them told stories about being asked to order lunch for the group and expressing shock because "that's not how a professional should be treated." This contrasts sharply with the average entrepreneur, where part of the appeal is escaping professionalism."
There's a subtle point you missed here. Many of these women were asked to order lunch because the male thought it was the woman -- of lesser position -- who should take lunch orders. There's a difference between doing something because everyone is sharing mundane tasks in a startup and being singled out for those positions.
Those women were absolutely right to assert their status there in a corporate environment -- and in a startup environment as well if a woman partner is subconsciously being relegated the mundane tasks for no other reason than that she's a woman.
There's a subtle point you missed here. Many of these women were asked to order lunch because the male thought it was the woman -- of lesser position -- who should take lunch orders. There's a difference between doing something because everyone is sharing mundane tasks in a startup and being singled out for those positions.
Those women were absolutely right to assert their status there in a corporate environment -- and in a startup environment as well if a woman partner is subconsciously being relegated the mundane tasks for no other reason than that she's a woman.
Thank you for taking the time to share what you learned and your observations. As a woman in business, I can understand how many of these comments hold true for women in general, but I think there is something to be said about the kind of work environment a woman chooses. Having worked in both startup and corporate environments, my personal experience in a corporate position mirrored what was discussed among the women in the lecture. The women I worked among opted for the security, professionalism, and "ladder" that a larger corporation provides.
On the other hand, my experience with startups has been different. Startups foster empowerment and allow the flexibility to effect change almost immediately. Sure there may have been slight differences in approaches among the different genders, but ultimately everyone works to achieve the same goal. My experience in this kind of environment contradicts most of the points made. There is risk, criticism and recognition despite gender. I tend to gravitate towards startup opportunities and have actually submitted a YC application. (fingers crossed!)
Keep in mind, that I am just one woman so my observations may not reflect what women generally experience in the working world. Thanks again for sharing, I found your post incredibly interesting.
On the other hand, my experience with startups has been different. Startups foster empowerment and allow the flexibility to effect change almost immediately. Sure there may have been slight differences in approaches among the different genders, but ultimately everyone works to achieve the same goal. My experience in this kind of environment contradicts most of the points made. There is risk, criticism and recognition despite gender. I tend to gravitate towards startup opportunities and have actually submitted a YC application. (fingers crossed!)
Keep in mind, that I am just one woman so my observations may not reflect what women generally experience in the working world. Thanks again for sharing, I found your post incredibly interesting.
It actually makes sense that the points expressed don't really resonate with the female readers on this site. After all, the average man's view of work probably doesn't mesh with that of the average male news.YC reader.
Great post. I know my attitude comes from a severe case of having a hammer and seeing all problems as nails - but I really think you're wrong on the YC app as the last step in a long process. I mean, I think it will be the last step, I just don't think it should be.
Most big business were built by men, and people tend to encourage and hire traits that they see in themselves. So trying to make these male businesses be more women friendly is just going to be so much window dressing - you really can't force people to respect others. So the only real solution I have any faith in, is to sidestep these established businesses and startup new ones. I think it goes for any group who feel on the outer of the business world.
Why tell people women can be just as good - people don't listen. They never listen. Only after female dominated startups rub their nose in it will there be meaningful change. The power woman stereotype, to me anyway, is a lot like the faithful black servant stereotype - it enables women to function in the white male dominated environment, but is ultimately constructed by others to be natural barrier to them gaining too much power.
Most big business were built by men, and people tend to encourage and hire traits that they see in themselves. So trying to make these male businesses be more women friendly is just going to be so much window dressing - you really can't force people to respect others. So the only real solution I have any faith in, is to sidestep these established businesses and startup new ones. I think it goes for any group who feel on the outer of the business world.
Why tell people women can be just as good - people don't listen. They never listen. Only after female dominated startups rub their nose in it will there be meaningful change. The power woman stereotype, to me anyway, is a lot like the faithful black servant stereotype - it enables women to function in the white male dominated environment, but is ultimately constructed by others to be natural barrier to them gaining too much power.
When I said it was the last step, I meant from the individual's point of view. From a societal point of view it may well be the first step.
Thank you. I appreciated that. I can only imagine how awkward it must have been to be the only male in the room absorbing all of this. And equally as so to be able to submit your notes here, but I think you did a nice job of separating your observations from your comments and thoughts in a very candid and honest way.
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There are hundred of business books for women, but zero business books for men. I also never heard of a panel for "men in business".
Another thing to think about...
Another thing to think about...
Men are the "default" and will remain so. However, if a group stops being the default, then they start becoming involved in identity politics.
There is no reason to have books or panels for men in business just like there is no reason to have white pride parades.
There are billions of men stuck in shitty jobs, yet I doubt they attribute that condition to being men. Often when I read business advice for women, it sounds as if all men would automatically become leaders because of their male traits. Not the case...
All business books are for "men in business".
Women have separate books because women are forced to adapt to culture and ritual that is foriegn to them. If you got into modeling, or magazine publishing, fields dominated by women, you'd be at a similar disadvantage.
Women have separate books because women are forced to adapt to culture and ritual that is foriegn to them. If you got into modeling, or magazine publishing, fields dominated by women, you'd be at a similar disadvantage.
I am not ready to believe that "foreign to them" aspect. As I said, it seems when women look at men in business, they only see the successful men (just like in dating - other men are invisible? ;-) ). There are books for men in business, ie "how to speek before people", "how to manage", etc. But they are not labeled "business for men", and men wouldn't say they need to read those books because "male culture" is foreign to them. Business culture might be foreign to them, and to some women, but not because of their gender.
I don't claim that discrimination against women does not exist - probably it does (I haven't seen it where I have worked so far, only read about it, hence the "probably"). I just don't think it does women a good service to attribute every problem to being a woman.
I don't claim that discrimination against women does not exist - probably it does (I haven't seen it where I have worked so far, only read about it, hence the "probably"). I just don't think it does women a good service to attribute every problem to being a woman.
<yawn>
"When will we see a female version of Steve Jobs or Warren Buffet or even Seth Godin? "
Oprah comes to mind. Sure, her industry is not tech or finance or whatever seth godin can be pigeonholed into, but she's there and a leader in her field.
Oprah comes to mind. Sure, her industry is not tech or finance or whatever seth godin can be pigeonholed into, but she's there and a leader in her field.
And Martha Stewart.
But both of those woman are dominant via charisma in fields that are socially "lady-like," being talking and home-making. I think the question's still relevant for male-centric areas like tech.
But both of those woman are dominant via charisma in fields that are socially "lady-like," being talking and home-making. I think the question's still relevant for male-centric areas like tech.
Tough Choices
by Carly Fiorina
A good read concerning many of the topics mentioned in this post - Alex, cool post; Interesting topic that is not brought up nearly enough.
A good read concerning many of the topics mentioned in this post - Alex, cool post; Interesting topic that is not brought up nearly enough.
Linguistics professor and writer Suzette Haden Elgin has a few theories about this. She emphasizes the importance of how ideas are conveyed and understood via body language, tone of voice, and operating metaphors.
Her books were written a few years ago, but she points out that a woman will more typically understand a given scenario with a "classic schoolroom" metaphor, where men are more likely to use a sports metaphor (especially football, but also basketball or baseball). This explains both the "faith in meritocracy" and the fact that many of the successful panelists played sports in college. This also explains another phenomenon that wasn't mentioned, where a person using a classroom metaphor and has failed at something has a tendancy to take it much harder than someone failing at a sports metaphor. Failing a test is failure, period, failing to score a touchdown means you have to get an interception or something and then try again. Ability to deal with failure effectively is important for entrepreneurs. This actually may also explain why men may be more afraid to criticize female employees. It's not just because they're patronizing (though in some cases that may be true) it's because they're afraid that it won't help anything and will in fact make matters worse.
Metaphors are a terrific way to explain how people view the world. Joel Spolsky talks about the "Command and Control" management method, and what's really happening there is the boss is modeling the environment on a military team. Understanding what's going on there goes a long way towards dealing with the situation, even if your ultimate decision, as an employee, is to go somewhere else, though in fact Elgin describes a technique called "semantic modulation" where you slowly change the metaphor that people are using to communicate.
Another thing she emphasizes is body language and tone of voice. In English, a tone of adult authority is deep, resonant, relaxed, and comforting all at the same time. Women aren't traditionally expected to speak that way, and their voices tend to be naturally higher pitched. I'm curious to know what the voice quality was of those women on the panel. I suspect their voices had traits much more common in men, which may have a lot to do with the perception that they are "not like girls you knew in college."
If you search Amazon for books about women and business, there are hundreds of books targeted toward women looking to succeed. However, there is not a single book written for men about understanding their female co-workers. Not in the sense of how to talk to them, but in the sense of creating a systemic environment that's tolerant of varying perceptions and aspirations. Perhaps this is why most discussions about women and business eventually devolve into random speculation about "the nature of women" and whatnot.
I'd say "how to talk to them" is far and away the most important subject, I just wouldn't describe it that way. I haven't read them all, but I highly recommend the Haden Elgin "Gentle Art" series. She gives concrete, practical advice and insighlful explanations. It's often not targeted specifically at women or men, it just describes the problem and explains ways that it can be solved. She tends to focus more on verbal conflict and tension than on day to day behavior, but it's still very useful.
The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense at Work, http://www.amazon.com/Gentle-Art-Verbal-Self-Defense-Work/dp...
Genderspeak: Men, Women, and the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense, http://www.amazon.com/Genderspeak-Women-Gentle-Verbal-Self-D... (I have not read this one)
Her books were written a few years ago, but she points out that a woman will more typically understand a given scenario with a "classic schoolroom" metaphor, where men are more likely to use a sports metaphor (especially football, but also basketball or baseball). This explains both the "faith in meritocracy" and the fact that many of the successful panelists played sports in college. This also explains another phenomenon that wasn't mentioned, where a person using a classroom metaphor and has failed at something has a tendancy to take it much harder than someone failing at a sports metaphor. Failing a test is failure, period, failing to score a touchdown means you have to get an interception or something and then try again. Ability to deal with failure effectively is important for entrepreneurs. This actually may also explain why men may be more afraid to criticize female employees. It's not just because they're patronizing (though in some cases that may be true) it's because they're afraid that it won't help anything and will in fact make matters worse.
Metaphors are a terrific way to explain how people view the world. Joel Spolsky talks about the "Command and Control" management method, and what's really happening there is the boss is modeling the environment on a military team. Understanding what's going on there goes a long way towards dealing with the situation, even if your ultimate decision, as an employee, is to go somewhere else, though in fact Elgin describes a technique called "semantic modulation" where you slowly change the metaphor that people are using to communicate.
Another thing she emphasizes is body language and tone of voice. In English, a tone of adult authority is deep, resonant, relaxed, and comforting all at the same time. Women aren't traditionally expected to speak that way, and their voices tend to be naturally higher pitched. I'm curious to know what the voice quality was of those women on the panel. I suspect their voices had traits much more common in men, which may have a lot to do with the perception that they are "not like girls you knew in college."
If you search Amazon for books about women and business, there are hundreds of books targeted toward women looking to succeed. However, there is not a single book written for men about understanding their female co-workers. Not in the sense of how to talk to them, but in the sense of creating a systemic environment that's tolerant of varying perceptions and aspirations. Perhaps this is why most discussions about women and business eventually devolve into random speculation about "the nature of women" and whatnot.
I'd say "how to talk to them" is far and away the most important subject, I just wouldn't describe it that way. I haven't read them all, but I highly recommend the Haden Elgin "Gentle Art" series. She gives concrete, practical advice and insighlful explanations. It's often not targeted specifically at women or men, it just describes the problem and explains ways that it can be solved. She tends to focus more on verbal conflict and tension than on day to day behavior, but it's still very useful.
The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense at Work, http://www.amazon.com/Gentle-Art-Verbal-Self-Defense-Work/dp...
Genderspeak: Men, Women, and the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense, http://www.amazon.com/Genderspeak-Women-Gentle-Verbal-Self-D... (I have not read this one)
"I suspect their voices had traits much more common in men, which may have a lot to do with the perception that they are 'not like girls you knew in college.'"
Actually you are probably correct there. So would this be the result of voice training, or more just a side-effect of being surrounded by only men at work for twenty years?
I think it's more than just tone of voice and body language though. For example, while I have no doubt there are many college women who subscribe to the WSJ, I have yet to actually meet one.
Actually you are probably correct there. So would this be the result of voice training, or more just a side-effect of being surrounded by only men at work for twenty years?
I think it's more than just tone of voice and body language though. For example, while I have no doubt there are many college women who subscribe to the WSJ, I have yet to actually meet one.
I have no idea where it comes from, I suspect it might have a lot to do with how they were raised, but that's a pure guess.
And I definitely agree that it doesn't entirely boil down to body language. There are biological differences, we are raised differently, and we care about different things. Voice and body language are most important with regards to standing up for yourself, being taken seriously, and appearing confident, smart, and reliable rather than cold, insistent, or calculating. (I'm not saying there aren't prejudices involved as well)
I didn't know any guys that subscribed to the WSJ in college either, incidentally.
And I definitely agree that it doesn't entirely boil down to body language. There are biological differences, we are raised differently, and we care about different things. Voice and body language are most important with regards to standing up for yourself, being taken seriously, and appearing confident, smart, and reliable rather than cold, insistent, or calculating. (I'm not saying there aren't prejudices involved as well)
I didn't know any guys that subscribed to the WSJ in college either, incidentally.
Today we had a panel of five women, all at roughly the vice president level of their respective organizations. Three were from Wall Street, one from NBC, and the last from Campbell Soup.
As I walked to class in the rain, the questions raised by today's thread were still fresh in my mind. So I was pleasantly surprised that some of the discussion was useful for understanding why there aren't more female entrepreneurs.
Today I discovered something. That is, if you take the time to ask women about their impressions of the business world you can learn some interesting stuff.
What follows are some of the more insightful points that were made. I'm not making any claims about "the nature of women." Rather, I'm just echoing what was said. (I'll try to separate my commentary from the actual points.) So, in no particular order:
1) All of the panelists believed that women were just as ambitious as men, but that ambition for women was different than ambition for men. I didn't get a clear explanation of this, but it seemed to involve family and work-life balance.
What surprised me most was that every single panelist had turned down various promotions over the years. Partly this was due to wanting more time with family. But several of the panelists also stressed the importance of lifestyle, so getting a job they liked less which required more work was seen as a lose/lose, even if the pay was substantially better.
2) All of the panelists talked about how women needed to promote themselves more. They told stories about how all the younger men they mentored would send them daily emails about what they'd been up to and the progress they'd been making. The women were "nowhere to be found", even if they were working just as hard or harder than their male counterparts. The panelists expressed that women tend to believe that if they just work really hard then others will magically notice and reward them. Maybe this makes me a bad person, but I couldn't help but thinking that the average woman's faith in meritocracy is most common in males who are perceived as spectrum autistic.
3) The panelists all expressed profound faith in the ideals of professionalism. There was much talk of what clothing a professional should wear and how a professional should speak and act. Many of them told stories about being asked to order lunch for the group and expressing shock because "that's not how a professional should be treated." This contrasts sharply with the average entrepreneur, where part of the appeal is escaping professionalism. Whereas entrepreneurial orientated males often find corporate culture to be constrictive and stifling, these women viewed it as a protection mechanism of sorts, offering safety and predictability.
If the typical women, fresh out of college, doesn't particularly value maximizing her incoming and prefers corporate culture, then it would make sense why she would prefer joining an established company. This is especially true if she has full faith in the corporate hierarchy to promote her based on merit, a rather dubious assumption.
4) The women expressed frustration that white men typically don't give women and minorities as harsh feedback as they give other white men. The view was that when men are afraid to criticize women then what ends up happening is that women don't improve and get passed over for promotions without knowing why. The emphasized the need for women to constantly ask for feedback from their bosses and mentors, as well as for men to be more honest with women.
5) There was a lot of frustration that men didn't really understand the concept of having kids. The view was that once you have a baby you are seen as being on "the baby track" and no longer on the rising professional track. It's a little awkward being the only guy in the class and having to listen to middle-age women talking about how their children were conceived and the implications for their career, so I'll avoid going into too much detail. That being said, a lot of smaller businesses have never had a woman go on maternity leave and don't really know what to make of it. This goes back into the theme of the corporate environment offering certain safety mechanisms.
They also expressed that the hardest part of having kids wasn't necessarily when they were infants, but when they got older. One panelist told a story about her kid who was having certain problems around kindergarten, so she had to take a couple months off from work to take him to see various specialists.
6) The panelists talked about how successful women are typically perceived as being very cold, and how they have to work to combat that.
This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. It seems like the stereotypical successful male tends to have more or less have the same basic personality they had in college, only with better looks and judgment and social skills. Whereas the personalities of the really successful women I've seen tend to be completely different than that of any girl I've ever met in school. I'm not sure if business just has more of a transformative effect on women's personalities or if the women bound for Wall Street success are just so rare that I rarely see them.
I've also noticed that there aren't really many charismatic female leaders. When will we see a female version of Steve Jobs or Warren Buffet or even Seth Godin? Or maybe there are women who come off as really charismatic to other women and being a guy I just can't see it. Perhaps it's unfair to ask these questions, but I think it's important. There's definitely a charisma bonus for men in business, and it's not additive, it's multiplicative if not exponential.
7) The panelists stressed the importance of learning negotiate, since negotiation isn't a skill that many women pick up on their own. Many also stressed that it was easier to negotiate coming into a firm than once you were already an employee, since internally you never know who you're going to piss off or what bridges you're going to burn.
8) Four out of the five women played sports in college. This really impressed me, especially since these women went to school around the time nineteen Yale rowers stripped in the dean's office with Title IX written across their chests: http://www.aherofordaisy.com/
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If you search Amazon for books about women and business, there are hundreds of books targeted toward women looking to succeed. However, there is not a single book written for men about understanding their female co-workers. Not in the sense of how to talk to them, but in the sense of creating a systemic environment that's tolerant of varying perceptions and aspirations. Perhaps this is why most discussions about women and business eventually devolve into random speculation about "the nature of women" and whatnot. It seems like there is real research into this though and there is something useful to be said on the topic, even if most companies currently build their policies and culture through trial and error.
Anyway, I apologize for the length and any spelling/grammar mistakes, but hopefully this has been useful, or at the very least interesting. In any event, after listening to today's speakers I got the impression that getting more women to hit the submit button on the YC app is really the last step in a long process as opposed to the beginning.