Fargo, online outliner and more with Dropbox storage(fargo.io)
fargo.io
Fargo, online outliner and more with Dropbox storage
http://fargo.io/
33 comments
Those who remember this family of Software might see some similarity ;-) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Userland_Software#Frontier
Just look at the article for protocols that they introduced and popularised.
There's lots of other cool stuff under the hood that you probably won't notice at first, like:
- It's a not just an outliner but it's also a outlined chat/collaboration tool. - It's not just an outliner but it's also a Javascript programming environment. i.e. you can execute functions that that you write in the outlines. - It's not just an outliner, it's a front end to your blogging platform.
Also, don't worry about connecting it to Dropbox. It sandboxes all it's activities under the Apps/Fargo folder so won't go crazy with your files.
Already there is a lot to try out and hopefully this will be the new frontier that we have been waiting for.
There's lots of other cool stuff under the hood that you probably won't notice at first, like:
- It's a not just an outliner but it's also a outlined chat/collaboration tool. - It's not just an outliner but it's also a Javascript programming environment. i.e. you can execute functions that that you write in the outlines. - It's not just an outliner, it's a front end to your blogging platform.
Also, don't worry about connecting it to Dropbox. It sandboxes all it's activities under the Apps/Fargo folder so won't go crazy with your files.
Already there is a lot to try out and hopefully this will be the new frontier that we have been waiting for.
I really appreciate the enthusiasm, as co-founder of the company and one of two developers of the product.
However, you can't at this time edit full JavaScript apps in Fargo, you can run single lines of code using Cmd-/.
We do plan to make it a JS development tool, we use it that way ourselves, but first we want to release the server-side component.
It is today a very good workgroup tool. Here's a doc that explains how to set it up for a workgroup.
http://smallpicture.com/fargoWorkgroup.html
Dave
However, you can't at this time edit full JavaScript apps in Fargo, you can run single lines of code using Cmd-/.
We do plan to make it a JS development tool, we use it that way ourselves, but first we want to release the server-side component.
It is today a very good workgroup tool. Here's a doc that explains how to set it up for a workgroup.
http://smallpicture.com/fargoWorkgroup.html
Dave
I couldn't figure out how to delete an item. Also kept getting "you have 1 synced document" growl notifications on Mac. Other than those issues, this looks to be really useful!
Click on the wedge in front of the item to be sure you're in structure mode. Then hit Backspace, or Cmd-X to cut.
This kind of stuff is explained in the Outliner Howto.
http://smallpicture.com/outlinerHowto.html
Glad you like it -- it is really useful. ;-)
This kind of stuff is explained in the Outliner Howto.
http://smallpicture.com/outlinerHowto.html
Glad you like it -- it is really useful. ;-)
I've been a longtime workflowy user and recently started using Fargo. Here are my likes, dislikes and feature requests.
Likes: - Dropbox storage - Calendar outlines as well as free form outlines - The 'Instant outline' communication model
Dislikes: - Too much mouse, keyboard interaction due to Fargo's quasi-implementation of the vim like command-mode (structure) and insert (text) mode sans vim-like idempotent 'esc' and 'i' or 'r' toggles. -- So, Enter in fargo lets one exit out of structure mode by opening a sibling node, (== vim 'o') - The lack of an 'esc' however forces one to use the mouse to get back to structure mode and than keyboard 'del' to remove this empty node. -- A mouse click on a node in structure mode gets one into insert mode. (== vim i) - To navigate up/down by keyboard requires one to switch from down arrow to right arrow at an indent. Why can't i just use the down arrow?
Feature requests - Auto-convert all http:// entries into <a href= links - Support hashtags like workflowy - Allow intra-outline linking - Allow devs to build plugins / macros so they can customize it to suit their needs. - Allow for multi-line outline entries (maybe a shift-enter)
Likes: - Dropbox storage - Calendar outlines as well as free form outlines - The 'Instant outline' communication model
Dislikes: - Too much mouse, keyboard interaction due to Fargo's quasi-implementation of the vim like command-mode (structure) and insert (text) mode sans vim-like idempotent 'esc' and 'i' or 'r' toggles. -- So, Enter in fargo lets one exit out of structure mode by opening a sibling node, (== vim 'o') - The lack of an 'esc' however forces one to use the mouse to get back to structure mode and than keyboard 'del' to remove this empty node. -- A mouse click on a node in structure mode gets one into insert mode. (== vim i) - To navigate up/down by keyboard requires one to switch from down arrow to right arrow at an indent. Why can't i just use the down arrow?
Feature requests - Auto-convert all http:// entries into <a href= links - Support hashtags like workflowy - Allow intra-outline linking - Allow devs to build plugins / macros so they can customize it to suit their needs. - Allow for multi-line outline entries (maybe a shift-enter)
Would be nice to be able to see the application without linking it to my Dropbox.
You can use just the outliner here:
http://littleoutliner.com/
That's exactly the same outliner as in Fargo, using localStorage only.
The other consideration is that Fargo only gets access to a sub-folder of your Apps folder in your Dropbox. The folder is created just for the app.
So it's very well sandboxed.
http://littleoutliner.com/
That's exactly the same outliner as in Fargo, using localStorage only.
The other consideration is that Fargo only gets access to a sub-folder of your Apps folder in your Dropbox. The folder is created just for the app.
So it's very well sandboxed.
Awesome!
Just don't really understand why Dropbox storage is so much better than just using Workflowy.
Workflowy is an excellent product, but having the outlines in Dropbox means you have copies of the files locally and can share them with other apps that work with OPML, which is a fairly standard file format among outliners.
Clunky at best, especially via Smartphone.
No clue why I would use this over Evernote - which has Android, iPhone, Web Browser, and Windows Apps - all pointing to the same dataset in the cloud.
This app keeps forcing me to allow Dropbox.
Might be cool after a few revisions - right now seems like Alpha stage work.
No clue why I would use this over Evernote - which has Android, iPhone, Web Browser, and Windows Apps - all pointing to the same dataset in the cloud.
This app keeps forcing me to allow Dropbox.
Might be cool after a few revisions - right now seems like Alpha stage work.
FYI, the keyboard shortcuts on http://littleoutliner.com/ seem to prevent me from using cmd+opt+I or cmd+opt+U when the window has focus. cmd+opt+J works though.
fargo is most definitely an interesting web-app,
and i can see it being useful for many people...
dave is a little bit over-enthusiastic about it -- there are literally dozens of writing tools that've been using dropbox for a long time now, to correct just one of his main brag-points -- but it's not a crime to love what you've made.
(nate kontny is similarly proud of his "draft", another writing-oriented web-tool that's newish and attracting a lot of fans with its qualities.)
we'll see what dave's users end up doing with it.
-bowerbird
dave is a little bit over-enthusiastic about it -- there are literally dozens of writing tools that've been using dropbox for a long time now, to correct just one of his main brag-points -- but it's not a crime to love what you've made.
(nate kontny is similarly proud of his "draft", another writing-oriented web-tool that's newish and attracting a lot of fans with its qualities.)
we'll see what dave's users end up doing with it.
-bowerbird
We started a mail list for Dropbox users to find the software you're talking about. Maybe you'll join the list and post some links.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/dropbox-u...
Note I tried not to be enthusiastic about your comment. Didn't work. ;-)
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/dropbox-u...
Note I tried not to be enthusiastic about your comment. Didn't work. ;-)
you've censored me too many times for me to
contribute to any endeavor that you control,
dave, so i'd pass on your listserve anyway...
but such a listserve is largely unnecessary. it's easy enough to find such writing-tools, just by googling with the appropriate terms.
(or, if you wanna just go immediately to the most versatile: https://www.textdropapp.com; but fair warning, the yearly cost is $32+.)
besides, dropbox support was big _last_year_. this year, something better is now available. i'll leave you to your own devices to find it, dave, and continue to wish you the best of luck, even if i feel you haven't treated me so nicely.
and i certainly won't let your animosity color my view of your software, and the potential it has.
although, to be honest, i think your earlier take -- that an outlining tool and a writing tool are two different types of tools, and need to retain their separate focus in order to be their best -- was the correct one, and your new hope that you can leverage fargo into a general writing tool is one that will ultimately flop. but hey, that's just my opinion, and i'd love to see your users prove me wrong, and do amazing stuff with fargo.
-bowerbird
but such a listserve is largely unnecessary. it's easy enough to find such writing-tools, just by googling with the appropriate terms.
(or, if you wanna just go immediately to the most versatile: https://www.textdropapp.com; but fair warning, the yearly cost is $32+.)
besides, dropbox support was big _last_year_. this year, something better is now available. i'll leave you to your own devices to find it, dave, and continue to wish you the best of luck, even if i feel you haven't treated me so nicely.
and i certainly won't let your animosity color my view of your software, and the potential it has.
although, to be honest, i think your earlier take -- that an outlining tool and a writing tool are two different types of tools, and need to retain their separate focus in order to be their best -- was the correct one, and your new hope that you can leverage fargo into a general writing tool is one that will ultimately flop. but hey, that's just my opinion, and i'd love to see your users prove me wrong, and do amazing stuff with fargo.
-bowerbird
Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and general writing tools. Fargo is an almost exact clone of the outliner I created in 1987.
Here's something I wrote recently on the subject.
http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro...
I'm doing the best I can, I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming from.
Peace..
Here's something I wrote recently on the subject.
http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro...
I'm doing the best I can, I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming from.
Peace..
dave said:
> Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and general writing tools.
> Here's something I wrote recently on the subject.
> http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro...
right. and earlier, in march, you wrote something similar, here:
> http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/march/imNotMakingBlogging...
but since then, you added markdown support, which seems to indicate movement toward writing and editing and publishing, in addition to the outlining.
further, you just recently retracted the march post, here:
> http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomethi...
and, as i said, i think your earlier take (in march and april) was more accurate, and that an attempt to go broader will cause fargo to lose focus, just as you said in the april piece. but, again, i would love to be proven wrong. because my tool-set attacks the issue from the other direction -- with a focus on the writing and editing and publishing of long-form documents -- and i've decided not to incorporate any outlining capability because i think it would blur that focus. but if your users can show me how to avoid that blurring, i will learn from them. but lacking that, i believe that (early) outlining is best seen as a good complement to (later) editing and publishing, at least for long-form documents.
*
> I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming from.
well, dave, you probably cannot be expected to keep track of all the people you censor and block.
but you have censored my comments more than once, and blocked me on twitter.
and while i am quite sure that you don't have any _personal_ animosity toward me, since you don't even know me, the acts of censorship and blocking are _not_ friendly ones. from your perspective, you're probably just "protecting" yourself from us "trolls". but i'd guess that you can imagine it looks different from my perspective.
so no, i'm not gonna contribute to a listserve where you can censor my input. i'll stay independent, so i can call you out when you're wrong, and give you credit when you do good.
-bowerbird
> Nothing changed in my view about the relationship between outlining and general writing tools.
> Here's something I wrote recently on the subject.
> http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/april/outlinersAndWordPro...
right. and earlier, in march, you wrote something similar, here:
> http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/march/imNotMakingBlogging...
but since then, you added markdown support, which seems to indicate movement toward writing and editing and publishing, in addition to the outlining.
further, you just recently retracted the march post, here:
> http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomethi...
and, as i said, i think your earlier take (in march and april) was more accurate, and that an attempt to go broader will cause fargo to lose focus, just as you said in the april piece. but, again, i would love to be proven wrong. because my tool-set attacks the issue from the other direction -- with a focus on the writing and editing and publishing of long-form documents -- and i've decided not to incorporate any outlining capability because i think it would blur that focus. but if your users can show me how to avoid that blurring, i will learn from them. but lacking that, i believe that (early) outlining is best seen as a good complement to (later) editing and publishing, at least for long-form documents.
*
> I don't feel any animosity toward you, I don't know where that's coming from.
well, dave, you probably cannot be expected to keep track of all the people you censor and block.
but you have censored my comments more than once, and blocked me on twitter.
and while i am quite sure that you don't have any _personal_ animosity toward me, since you don't even know me, the acts of censorship and blocking are _not_ friendly ones. from your perspective, you're probably just "protecting" yourself from us "trolls". but i'd guess that you can imagine it looks different from my perspective.
so no, i'm not gonna contribute to a listserve where you can censor my input. i'll stay independent, so i can call you out when you're wrong, and give you credit when you do good.
-bowerbird
Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for, it's a feature in Twitter that's useful to help keep down the flamage. I think it's one of their greatest innovations.
A little feedback -- you read a lot of meaning into things that are a lot simpler than you think. For example, the markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot in feature requests from users. It's just that simple. Nothing more to it than that.
I've always used MORE and its descendants to write. I wrote every DaveNet piece in MORE or Frontier or the OPML Editor. I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor. Outliners are good for writing.
Like I said, I don't dislike you, or even know you (as you point out). And it probably doesn't matter if you contribute to the mail list, but I don't see how it could hurt. Whatever.
A little feedback -- you read a lot of meaning into things that are a lot simpler than you think. For example, the markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot in feature requests from users. It's just that simple. Nothing more to it than that.
I've always used MORE and its descendants to write. I wrote every DaveNet piece in MORE or Frontier or the OPML Editor. I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor. Outliners are good for writing.
Like I said, I don't dislike you, or even know you (as you point out). And it probably doesn't matter if you contribute to the mail list, but I don't see how it could hurt. Whatever.
dave said:
> Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for
i wasn't asking you to "answer to" me for your blocking... if you want to ignore people like me who say things that we think you need to hear, go ahead and ignore us, i don't care. heck, that's the reason why so many people ignore _you_, dave.
> I think it's one of their greatest innovations.
i'm sure you do. but ignoring people is not an "innovation".
i was merely telling you why i wouldn't join your listserve, even if i did think it'd be useful. (and, as i said, i don't; i can get more information by simply searching around a bit. and further, the horizon of the cloud has eclipsed dropbox.)
> markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot
um, yes, dave, i quite well understand that it is your users who are moving you toward using fargo as a writing-tool, and that's precisely why i said i hope that they succeed with it, so i can learn from _them_ how to make such a dual focus work.
what you or i _think_ can work doesn't really matter (which is why i'm not interested in your effort to tell me what you think).
what matters is whether people can show me a way to make it work.
> I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor.
and finally, yes, dave, it's certainly possible to use an outliner to write lots and lots and lots and lots of short blog articles.
but that's not long-form writing. a _book_ is long-form writing, one cohesive entity that has an arc from the beginning to the end.
heck, mike cane has used twitter to "write" over 275,000 tweets, but i don't consider _that_ to be "long-form writing" either...
-bowerbird
> Blocking isn't something I have to answer to anyone for
i wasn't asking you to "answer to" me for your blocking... if you want to ignore people like me who say things that we think you need to hear, go ahead and ignore us, i don't care. heck, that's the reason why so many people ignore _you_, dave.
> I think it's one of their greatest innovations.
i'm sure you do. but ignoring people is not an "innovation".
i was merely telling you why i wouldn't join your listserve, even if i did think it'd be useful. (and, as i said, i don't; i can get more information by simply searching around a bit. and further, the horizon of the cloud has eclipsed dropbox.)
> markdown support was added because it was coming up a lot
um, yes, dave, i quite well understand that it is your users who are moving you toward using fargo as a writing-tool, and that's precisely why i said i hope that they succeed with it, so i can learn from _them_ how to make such a dual focus work.
what you or i _think_ can work doesn't really matter (which is why i'm not interested in your effort to tell me what you think).
what matters is whether people can show me a way to make it work.
> I write Scripting News in the OPML Editor.
and finally, yes, dave, it's certainly possible to use an outliner to write lots and lots and lots and lots of short blog articles.
but that's not long-form writing. a _book_ is long-form writing, one cohesive entity that has an arc from the beginning to the end.
heck, mike cane has used twitter to "write" over 275,000 tweets, but i don't consider _that_ to be "long-form writing" either...
-bowerbird
Is this you?
https://twitter.com/bowerbird
BTW, the only reason I block people on Twitter is if they tell me to shut up (directly or indirectly) or if they make personal comments.
I've now read several of your rants here, and it doesn't surprise me one bit that I blocked you on Twitter.
You're a very inspired writer, but your inspiration is very very dark! Maybe you should write gothic novels with your fabulous writing tools. ;-)
https://twitter.com/bowerbird
BTW, the only reason I block people on Twitter is if they tell me to shut up (directly or indirectly) or if they make personal comments.
I've now read several of your rants here, and it doesn't surprise me one bit that I blocked you on Twitter.
You're a very inspired writer, but your inspiration is very very dark! Maybe you should write gothic novels with your fabulous writing tools. ;-)
um, no, that's not my account. that's an australian woman.
and i never told you to "shut up", directly or indirectly. plus, when i do use that phrase, it's only in a joking way, because i'm a poet and i believe very deeply in free speech.
also, i don't do "rants" -- my tone is always even-tempered, and i use reason, not emotion -- plus my inspiration is _not_ "dark", let alone "very dark", let alone "very very dark"... i take myself quite lightly, which is why i fly with angels. so no, i won't be writing any gothic novels any time soon. :+)
now, have a nice day.
-bowerbird
p.s. apologies to lurkers, for letting this go so far off-topic.
and i never told you to "shut up", directly or indirectly. plus, when i do use that phrase, it's only in a joking way, because i'm a poet and i believe very deeply in free speech.
also, i don't do "rants" -- my tone is always even-tempered, and i use reason, not emotion -- plus my inspiration is _not_ "dark", let alone "very dark", let alone "very very dark"... i take myself quite lightly, which is why i fly with angels. so no, i won't be writing any gothic novels any time soon. :+)
now, have a nice day.
-bowerbird
p.s. apologies to lurkers, for letting this go so far off-topic.
If you had done all that, I wouldn't have blocked you. :-)
this dialog has now become too boring for the lurkers
-- they care why you banned me even less than i do --
so i am officially leaving this thread at this time...
but notice that my participation in this thread started with:
> fargo is most definitely an interesting web-app,
> and i can see it being useful for many people...
it seems you can never say enough positive things about dave.
-bowerbird
but notice that my participation in this thread started with:
> fargo is most definitely an interesting web-app,
> and i can see it being useful for many people...
it seems you can never say enough positive things about dave.
-bowerbird
I highly recommend Fargo and its underlying OPML format. It is pretty much the only tab I keep open on my browser all day.
I've been following Dave on outliners for a long while. I haven't made the switch from workflowy yet.
Would be nice if tools like subtask.com would layer nicely on outliners. IE the outline from Fargo could be used to create the mindmap or vice versa. Preferably keeping themselves in sync rather than importing/exporting manually.
Would be nice if tools like subtask.com would layer nicely on outliners. IE the outline from Fargo could be used to create the mindmap or vice versa. Preferably keeping themselves in sync rather than importing/exporting manually.
"Fargo is the only idea organizer that runs in the browser, cross-operating system with entirely cloud-based storage."
I'm actually quite fond of another one, Workflowy.
I'm actually quite fond of another one, Workflowy.
I use Workflowy as well, and Fargo didn't feel quite as convenient to me. One thing in particular I noticed was that moving an item to the same level as its parent is easier in Workflowy.
So I'm sticking with Workflowy for now. I just wish it allowed me to add multiline leaf items!
So I'm sticking with Workflowy for now. I just wish it allowed me to add multiline leaf items!
Workflowy is great.
In Fargo, if you want to move an item to the same level as its parent there are four ways to do it:
1. Shift-Tab.
2. Cmd-L.
3. Drag it to the left with the mouse.
4. Choose the Move Left command from the Outliner menu (useful on tablets and phones).
In Fargo, if you want to move an item to the same level as its parent there are four ways to do it:
1. Shift-Tab.
2. Cmd-L.
3. Drag it to the left with the mouse.
4. Choose the Move Left command from the Outliner menu (useful on tablets and phones).
way to aggressive - installing before reading? no thx, no matter how useful it could be or not! BAD PRACTICE
You can most definitely read about it before installing.
We have two buttons, one takes you to a product backgrounder and the other takes you to Dropbox. No one forces you to go one way or the other.
We have two buttons, one takes you to a product backgrounder and the other takes you to Dropbox. No one forces you to go one way or the other.
I use it every day for jotting down quick notes, keeping a work journal, as well as planning out larger projects.
There's already an active community of programmers and writers using it to do some pretty interesting things. And the guys behind it are constantly listening to user feedback[1] to build functionality to match how people are actually using the product.
If you're hesitant about connecting to Dropbox, give http://littleoutliner.com/ a try. It uses the same outliner code as Fargo, but uses your browser's localStorage for the storage mechanism. It's really pretty cool.
If you do decide to give Fargo a try, make sure to open the Community Feed (Docs > Community Feed). If you can't figure something out after going through the very thorough documentation[2][3], feel free to shoot us a question.
[1]: http://threads2.scripting.com/2013/may/mathewTaughtMeSomethi...
[2]: http://smallpicture.com/outlinerHowto.html
[3]: http://smallpicture.com/fargoDocs.html