Why we love paying for Trello(codetunes.com)
codetunes.com
Why we love paying for Trello
http://codetunes.com/2013/why-we-love-paying-for-trello
7 comments
That's correct! I made a quick update.
Do also bear in mind that Fogcreek haven't always stuck to their word on how they will keep their systems up and running (see thread [1] in story [2]).
No company, or service/facility that a company states will stick around, is guaranteed to stick around. Trawl back through the archives on HN and you'll find tale after tale of (previously) reputable companies backtracking, cancelling projects, going bust etc.
Make sure you always keep hold of your data!
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4722056 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4721028
No company, or service/facility that a company states will stick around, is guaranteed to stick around. Trawl back through the archives on HN and you'll find tale after tale of (previously) reputable companies backtracking, cancelling projects, going bust etc.
Make sure you always keep hold of your data!
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4722056 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4721028
"Fogcreek [sic] haven't always stuck to their word on how they will keep their systems up and running".
What do you mean by this? It sounds like you are suggesting that "how" we keep our systems up and running is required to be the same at all times. Why should people care about "how" we do it, just that it's done? For awhile, we had a second data center in Toronto instead of LA. Trello moved to AWS, so it doesn't need a 'second' data center. I don't think we should be derided because we changed the way we keep our systems up and running.
"Make sure you always keep hold of your data!" - Business Class has a great export function :)
Also, minor point, it's Fog Creek, not Fogcreek.
What do you mean by this? It sounds like you are suggesting that "how" we keep our systems up and running is required to be the same at all times. Why should people care about "how" we do it, just that it's done? For awhile, we had a second data center in Toronto instead of LA. Trello moved to AWS, so it doesn't need a 'second' data center. I don't think we should be derided because we changed the way we keep our systems up and running.
"Make sure you always keep hold of your data!" - Business Class has a great export function :)
Also, minor point, it's Fog Creek, not Fogcreek.
Apologies for the misspelling.
You used the second data-center to sell FogBugz on Demand to your customers. You didn't tell them that you no longer had it. It went down when the storm hit NY, and there was no backup data centre.
If you change the way you keep up your systems, and keep them up, no one minds. When you don't, people rightly question what you've told them in the past and wonder if what you're telling them now fits into the same categories.
I'm aware you have export functions, thats great. My message was to your customers who need to remember to utilise them. Thats not a dig at your company, its applies to any SaaS providers.
I hope my spelling was correct this time around, apologies if not. FYI, "fog creek" is not capitalised correctly in your HN profile, just letting you know so you can keep the brand in check.
You used the second data-center to sell FogBugz on Demand to your customers. You didn't tell them that you no longer had it. It went down when the storm hit NY, and there was no backup data centre.
If you change the way you keep up your systems, and keep them up, no one minds. When you don't, people rightly question what you've told them in the past and wonder if what you're telling them now fits into the same categories.
I'm aware you have export functions, thats great. My message was to your customers who need to remember to utilise them. Thats not a dig at your company, its applies to any SaaS providers.
I hope my spelling was correct this time around, apologies if not. FYI, "fog creek" is not capitalised correctly in your HN profile, just letting you know so you can keep the brand in check.
Can you clarify when FogBugz on Demand was in two data centers and when not, no matter whether it's in LA or Toronto?
Back then it was really interesting that Joel found SQL Server Mirroring not usable and instead wrote that they went to manually coded Log shipping for SQL server. At the same time I was experimenting with the same techniques and was very interested in this, so I also remembered it closely and wondered about it once the bucket brigade story was told.
There will probably be a blog post in a couple of months about the latest infrastructure changes that we've added. Keep an eye out for that.
> Can you clarify when FogBugz on Demand was in two data centers and when not...
> There will probably be a blog post in a couple of months...
That'll be a "no", then.
> There will probably be a blog post in a couple of months...
That'll be a "no", then.
I bet in the end it was not really such a disadvantage for all the OnDemand customers: Imagine they had the two data centers: The log shipping Joel "sold" us would have had a nasty side effect: If someone makes the call to do the switch over, everyone would have lost the last few hours of work!! All customer mail, all bug events would be gone.
Well one could say that in the particular case it might have worked out: They knew about Sandy in advance and had a bit of time until the lights went out. But if it happens unexpected, it's a tough call to make: Keep it running or keep the last data since the last log shipping?
If on the other hand they had gone with Sql mirroring, it's likely that there would have been quite some outage just because of the mirroring: If one of the two data centers went down, the whole system would be down, it's often like that with failover systems
Well one could say that in the particular case it might have worked out: They knew about Sandy in advance and had a bit of time until the lights went out. But if it happens unexpected, it's a tough call to make: Keep it running or keep the last data since the last log shipping?
If on the other hand they had gone with Sql mirroring, it's likely that there would have been quite some outage just because of the mirroring: If one of the two data centers went down, the whole system would be down, it's often like that with failover systems
Hi! Trello Dev here! Could you change the Business Class link to point to https://trello.com/c/2A9OEGta for now? That would allow people to sign up for the beta, and the current link doesn't work unless you're already approved for the beta.
(I'm currently changing the business-class route to redirect you to that card if you don't have access.)
Thanks for the kind words about Trello, we're glad you like it!
(I'm currently changing the business-class route to redirect you to that card if you don't have access.)
Thanks for the kind words about Trello, we're glad you like it!
I just updated the sentence. Thanks!
Thanks so much!
Okay, we just pushed a change so that https://trello.com/business-class will behave nicely for everyone. For now, you can sign up without waiting for beta approval. =)
Fogcreek stated that Trello will not go away and i guess its a pretty safe bet as they are making their money (and plenty of it) elsewhere. Of course you can pay for it to feel better about it, but i dont think the success of Trello impacts Fogcreek a whole lot.
Supporting a product that you use regularly feels good.
Personally, I can afford to live without Evernote Premium as I don't upload much and don't use premium features as much. But still I'm a premium customer because they are doing a great job!
I am not saying that paying for it isnt a good thing. But it wont make much difference to the creator of Trello and wont impact the lifespan of Trello all that much. They can afford to shut it down whenever they want or to keep it running for as long as they want.
Not being disrespectful or rude, but a (big)group of people like these will surely make a difference.
"We don’t need the pro features. We simply appreciate the safety and want to support the product."
This sentiment is great for businesses but often doesn't translate well to consumer apps. However, some companies are great at having consumers pay because they love a product. Evernote CEO Phil Libin said how they want to make the free option almost all-encompassing with a small percentage upgrading to premium because they love the product so much. If a product can get to that point with their users, then that's the holy grail in my opinion (rather than feeling like you have to coerce or "force" your users to pay for something by trickery, manipulation, or harsh constraints).
This sentiment is great for businesses but often doesn't translate well to consumer apps. However, some companies are great at having consumers pay because they love a product. Evernote CEO Phil Libin said how they want to make the free option almost all-encompassing with a small percentage upgrading to premium because they love the product so much. If a product can get to that point with their users, then that's the holy grail in my opinion (rather than feeling like you have to coerce or "force" your users to pay for something by trickery, manipulation, or harsh constraints).
I like to think of the freemium model as two different products. The first one, free, must be enough to attend the user's needs. And, without forcing anything, you use the free environment to showcase your second product, which is the paid one, that have different features (not just better ones).
When you frame like this you have both happy paid and happy free users. I imagine it like doing tourism on a city. You may just walk, doing your own sightseeing, with the free city's touristic brochure in your hands. Or you can look for a paid, professional, touristic sightseeing bus. Tourists don't see it as coercive, or even upselling. They are two different products that you choose between.
When you frame like this you have both happy paid and happy free users. I imagine it like doing tourism on a city. You may just walk, doing your own sightseeing, with the free city's touristic brochure in your hands. Or you can look for a paid, professional, touristic sightseeing bus. Tourists don't see it as coercive, or even upselling. They are two different products that you choose between.
Yes I agree with all your points. But features aside, sometimes I think it's great if not only do you give extra utility with your premium features but users like to pay because they want to support you.
I honestly cannot understand why a post that is essentially saying, 'look, we spent money, because we are awesome'.
This is not why I come to HN.
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Actually, lots of people here on HN have been inquiring about Trello's business model because they, presumptive consumers, are running businesses and don't want to use a service that's free today and might be gone tomorrow. The fact that Trello now offers a business plan increases the perception of stability.
So a guy has to blog about in answer to those "lots of people" asking? Or could he have just replied to them in the discussion of HN? I don't know - seems a bit self-serving and like an utter waste of time for me. I like/use {Services A, B, C...Z} as well but I don't need to blog about every one of them. I suppose his next post is something anti what this post is - something like, "Why I use Gmail and am not paying for it" or whatever. Meh.
At $200/year/org it's still incredibly affordable.
Subtle effects when you scroll can be fun, but this is over the top and distracting.
>it’s paid and it won’t disappear overnight.
Thats a gross simplification. Perhaps your company paying for trello, and you blogging about it, makes it a little bit more likely that Trello will stick around and will "succeed". But it certainly does not do much to _guarantee_ that they will hang around for however long you want to use it. Much larger paid-for services have disappeared. The best that they can guarantee you is that they will try to make your data available to you in some form if they ever go away.