Fine, eBay. Here’s your $2. I hope you choke on it.(blog.danhulton.com)
blog.danhulton.com
Fine, eBay. Here’s your $2. I hope you choke on it.
http://blog.danhulton.com/2012/11/01/fine-ebay-heres-your-two-dollars-i-hope-you-choke-on-it/
131 comments
Bonanza.com (the site I've been building for about four years now) has become one of the largest non-eBay marketplaces by scooping up sellers like you & the OP. We're now up to 25,000 active sellers and 4 million listings by virtue of having seller-friendly policies.
Admittedly, there is enough gray area in marketplace transactions where determining "right and wrong" can sometimes prove difficult. But I like to think that we start from a neutral POV, rather than the "buyer is always right" mentality that eBay has increasingly gravitated toward.
Admittedly, there is enough gray area in marketplace transactions where determining "right and wrong" can sometimes prove difficult. But I like to think that we start from a neutral POV, rather than the "buyer is always right" mentality that eBay has increasingly gravitated toward.
You run Bonanza? Cool, I have a bill for you.
2 years ago I caught a lady selling handbags (that she didn't really have) from your site. I caught her because she was having people pay through an account with our service (nextproof.com).
Guess who had to eat the chargeback fees? I did
Guess who had to call other people, inform them the handbag they ordered as a Christmas gift was bogus, then listen to them cry? I did
All that to say, if you (or anyone else) has a successful marketplace, shady folks will swarm to you and you will have no choice but to figure out buyer and seller protection policies.
2 years ago I caught a lady selling handbags (that she didn't really have) from your site. I caught her because she was having people pay through an account with our service (nextproof.com).
Guess who had to eat the chargeback fees? I did
Guess who had to call other people, inform them the handbag they ordered as a Christmas gift was bogus, then listen to them cry? I did
All that to say, if you (or anyone else) has a successful marketplace, shady folks will swarm to you and you will have no choice but to figure out buyer and seller protection policies.
Wow. It never occurred to me that when you provide a service like that, someone could use it to literally ruin Christmas.
That is heavy.
That is heavy.
Don't make critical purchases from random people on the Internet? We should never blame the victim, nevertheless everyone should be thaught a basic level of "Internet street smarts".
You should work with Brian Armstrong to allow sellers / buyers to use bitcoins on the site. The advantage is that bitcoin does not allow chargebacks. Their interface is very close to PayPal, and makes it much easier to get started with.
http://coinbase.com/
http://coinbase.com/
Don't you think that "no buyer protection" is just heading too far in the opposite direction?
Especially with callmeed's post[1] above...
[1]http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4730281
Especially with callmeed's post[1] above...
[1]http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4730281
With bitcoin you can do some surprisingly complex things. Such as move money into a fund that the other people can verify are there, which only pays out on a trigger condition.
Where's the best place to learn more about this?
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts would be a starting point.
it's clean and looks kinda cool..
If you ever launch it, let me know and I will do my utmost to promote it.
If you'd launched already I would have happily sold my iPhone through you. There's really no way you could have provided a worse experience unless you actively tried.
If you'd launched already I would have happily sold my iPhone through you. There's really no way you could have provided a worse experience unless you actively tried.
> There's really no way you could have provided a worse experience unless you actively tried.
Oddly enough, that's been tried at least once:
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/business/28borker.html?pa...
Oddly enough, that's been tried at least once:
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/business/28borker.html?pa...
Thanks for that. The last paragraph is pure genius.
>A big problem with casual selling on ebay is you don't know what you don't know until you've already been screwed.
Most of the big online sites (Paypal is the worst offender, but the others aren't much better) favor buyers over sellers. Amazon certainly works that way, and, as a result, I'm mostly use Craigslist to sell computers and cameras/lenses. I don't sell all that much stuff, though I do it for family members, but I'm familiar enough to have an opinion.
Craigslist has its own dangers, but those can be mitigated through meeting in public or in police station lobbies.
Most of the big online sites (Paypal is the worst offender, but the others aren't much better) favor buyers over sellers. Amazon certainly works that way, and, as a result, I'm mostly use Craigslist to sell computers and cameras/lenses. I don't sell all that much stuff, though I do it for family members, but I'm familiar enough to have an opinion.
Craigslist has its own dangers, but those can be mitigated through meeting in public or in police station lobbies.
Man, how eBay has fought Craigslist tooth and nail over the years.
eBay now owns a stake in Craigslist
http://www.craigslist.org/about/press/ebay.stake
http://www.craigslist.org/about/press/ebay.stake
> or in police station lobbies
I've never used Craigslist. But is it really common or advised to meat with the buyer/seller in a police station lobby?
I've never used Craigslist. But is it really common or advised to meat with the buyer/seller in a police station lobby?
Common thing for a large transaction is to meet in a bank.
I've bought, and sold, many things via Craigslist. I funded a cross-country move by selling the things I couldn't fit into my truck and u-haul trailer using Craigslist.
Having said that, I dislike the meeting-up aspect of Craigslist. For all of the money I've "made" by selling my stuff through them, there have been countless times where the person on the other end of the phone never shows up and leaves me there waiting.
Overall, it's been a positive experience. I'll continue using them for the foreseeable future.
Having said that, I dislike the meeting-up aspect of Craigslist. For all of the money I've "made" by selling my stuff through them, there have been countless times where the person on the other end of the phone never shows up and leaves me there waiting.
Overall, it's been a positive experience. I'll continue using them for the foreseeable future.
I think the standard method is coffee shops in the good part of town.
It wasn't the lobby, but I sold a motorcycle for cash in a police station parking lot.
Scammers, confusing auction settings, limited integration with paypal despite owning them, terrible invoice generation, image uploads that don't work without Flash, etc. I despise eBay.
That being said, I'm surprised nobody mentioned selling on Amazon. Blindingly easy to setup your sale, if you choose the lowest price on a popular good someone will buy it within the hour. Amazon will generate an invoice and mailing label for you, plus deduct shipping charges from your payout. Scammers are mildly annoying, but they waste very little of your time and don't cost you any money.
I've sold a few iPhones and an iPad on Amazon and it has been great. I'll never sell items anywhere else if I can possibly help it.
Edit: in addition to the iPhones/iPad, I've sold a few games and other electronics on Amazon. Out of maybe 10 sales, two were "bought" by scammers. Amazon sends me an email saying that someone purchased my item, but they may be a fraudulent account. Do not send anything until Amazon confirms that they are valid. It's such an easy, friendly process.
That being said, I'm surprised nobody mentioned selling on Amazon. Blindingly easy to setup your sale, if you choose the lowest price on a popular good someone will buy it within the hour. Amazon will generate an invoice and mailing label for you, plus deduct shipping charges from your payout. Scammers are mildly annoying, but they waste very little of your time and don't cost you any money.
I've sold a few iPhones and an iPad on Amazon and it has been great. I'll never sell items anywhere else if I can possibly help it.
Edit: in addition to the iPhones/iPad, I've sold a few games and other electronics on Amazon. Out of maybe 10 sales, two were "bought" by scammers. Amazon sends me an email saying that someone purchased my item, but they may be a fraudulent account. Do not send anything until Amazon confirms that they are valid. It's such an easy, friendly process.
I never even knew you could.
Guess I'll check that out.
Thanks!
Guess I'll check that out.
Thanks!
I believe you can also sell electronics TO Amazon. Probably at a reduced price, but I got several hundred dollars in amazon credit (equal to cash for my personal use) for an iPhone once. It was absurdly easy.
I've been using Amazon for years to sell. They make it so easy. Also, they have added a slick way to buy shipping now too. I love it!
My only complaint is the fees, but I accept that as the price I pay for making it so easy and painless and such a convenience to sell nearly anything.
My only complaint is the fees, but I accept that as the price I pay for making it so easy and painless and such a convenience to sell nearly anything.
Yep, I sold a load of books through Amazon a while ago, made a decent amount from them.
Seconded - I sold between 200 and 300 of my old books on MarketPlace a while back.
I reached the point where I wrote a little (Shoes) Ruby app that uses a barcode reader and a headless browser to automate the selling :-)
I reached the point where I wrote a little (Shoes) Ruby app that uses a barcode reader and a headless browser to automate the selling :-)
I wanted to provide somewhat of a counterpoint – I have been using e-bay (Australia) for about 7 years. I sell all kinds of stuff ranging from a broken bookcase for $1, which I didn’t want to haul to the tip, all the way up to a boat for $950. I also run a small business selling items via a website and my e-bay account [1][2].
Overall I’ve found my e-bay experience to be very positive. I’ve only had one person who I suspected of scamming me, when they claimed they didn’t receive the item I posted. The vast majority of users are just normal people looking to pick up a bargain. It helps that some of my items are pick up only and that I am not selling electronics.
Every few years an article like this pops up and I get concerned and start looking at other places to sell my products. What I inevitably find is that no other auction site has the users base that e-bay does, so my items inevitably don’t sell, or the price is significantly lower than what I would get on e-bay. It’s possible to build a better experience than e-bay, but up until now nobody has managed to do it.
Finally, I think what the writer of the article was looking for was an ‘unpaid item dispute’. He needed to open once against the original bidder, and if they didn’t don’t pay within a certain time limit, and then I believe e-bay will refund the fees. E-bay also records unpaid item disputes against buyers and will limit what they can do. [3]
[1] - http://myworld.ebay.com.au/sleemancorp
[2] - http://www.grafting-tool.com/magento/index.php/
[3] - http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/unpaid-items.html
Overall I’ve found my e-bay experience to be very positive. I’ve only had one person who I suspected of scamming me, when they claimed they didn’t receive the item I posted. The vast majority of users are just normal people looking to pick up a bargain. It helps that some of my items are pick up only and that I am not selling electronics.
Every few years an article like this pops up and I get concerned and start looking at other places to sell my products. What I inevitably find is that no other auction site has the users base that e-bay does, so my items inevitably don’t sell, or the price is significantly lower than what I would get on e-bay. It’s possible to build a better experience than e-bay, but up until now nobody has managed to do it.
Finally, I think what the writer of the article was looking for was an ‘unpaid item dispute’. He needed to open once against the original bidder, and if they didn’t don’t pay within a certain time limit, and then I believe e-bay will refund the fees. E-bay also records unpaid item disputes against buyers and will limit what they can do. [3]
[1] - http://myworld.ebay.com.au/sleemancorp
[2] - http://www.grafting-tool.com/magento/index.php/
[3] - http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/unpaid-items.html
OP here. Glad eBay is working out for you! Honestly, there are a lot of tools and useful techniques for sellers to get a positive experience, but they're just hidden or you only seem to learn them after you've gotten burned already. As a seller who hasn't been on eBay for many years though, it's just a very harsh experience filled with hidden pitfalls.
And I was able to submit unpaid item disputes successfully for the majority of the oustanding fees or I'd have been on the hook for closer to $70. However, there was a final $2 that they refused to refund because certain selling fees are un-refundable for some reason, and that's what I got stuck with in the end.
And I was able to submit unpaid item disputes successfully for the majority of the oustanding fees or I'd have been on the hook for closer to $70. However, there was a final $2 that they refused to refund because certain selling fees are un-refundable for some reason, and that's what I got stuck with in the end.
So wait, you basically got around $68 back and you posted this blog post ABOUT losing less than 5% (around 3%) from a failed transaction? Whereas there are other people who have legitimate complaints having lost >50% of their item value along with fees. Wow..... I really do want to understand the rationale behind this. Explain.
So wait, you basically got a full story about my frustrations and issues with a major company and you posted a comment about the least important part of the story (the $ value)? Whereas there are other people who have legitimate complaints about being lied to about >50% of campaign promises along with facts. Wow... I really do want to understand the rationale behind this. Explain.
You made it about the $2 in your headline. And frankly, I have to agree with the grandparent.
How does this contribute to the discussion at all? Answer the damned question. The immaturity that emanates from this is amazing. :) Go troll somewhere else. EDIT: Sure this could have been phrased better had the parent poster show some respect. I said I wanted to know the rationale behind the post, he chose to add an empty post, so yes this is warranted. I did not say anything vitriolic enough that warranted the parent post. If you didn't like the "explain" portion, that's fine, point it out and respond appropriately.
Honestly, it's usually trolls using the word troll. That combined with the lack of empathy and entitlement displayed in your original comment compelled me to check your comment history. You're a nice person in there though. What gives? I'm genuinely curious if I struck a nerve or something.
But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and let me ignore how entitled and demanding your "Explain" was, and actually explain.
It's not that the transaction was a failure that upsets me, nor is it the actual end cost to me. It was the abysmal entire experience, from start to finish. There are plenty of reputable companies that - when faced with a customer who has had a bad experience are happy to refund them their money and apologize for the inconvenience. eBay doesn't do that, and makes it as difficult as possible to actually contact them to resolve it.
Now, this is entirely speculation based on what I've learned from the comments here and on my blog and via Google, but odds are very very good I would never have gotten that money back anyway. And odds are very very good I would have been on the phone for upwards of 30 minutes in queue.
But ultimately in the end, the fact that I had to pay any money to them after having such a terrible experience, just to get them to stop bombarding my inbox with "SWEAR TO GOD, WE WILL SEND YOU TO COLLECTIONS (also don't reply to this email we won't read it)" is a complete failure of customer service. That's what's unacceptable, not the % of the fees I got back.
But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and let me ignore how entitled and demanding your "Explain" was, and actually explain.
It's not that the transaction was a failure that upsets me, nor is it the actual end cost to me. It was the abysmal entire experience, from start to finish. There are plenty of reputable companies that - when faced with a customer who has had a bad experience are happy to refund them their money and apologize for the inconvenience. eBay doesn't do that, and makes it as difficult as possible to actually contact them to resolve it.
Now, this is entirely speculation based on what I've learned from the comments here and on my blog and via Google, but odds are very very good I would never have gotten that money back anyway. And odds are very very good I would have been on the phone for upwards of 30 minutes in queue.
But ultimately in the end, the fact that I had to pay any money to them after having such a terrible experience, just to get them to stop bombarding my inbox with "SWEAR TO GOD, WE WILL SEND YOU TO COLLECTIONS (also don't reply to this email we won't read it)" is a complete failure of customer service. That's what's unacceptable, not the % of the fees I got back.
Please don't act surprised after what you wrote. There are polite ways to make a point, and good reason to do so.
IMHO your original 'request' was phrased as an indignant demand. Of course, the OP should have just downvoted and moved on. But now there seems to be some confusion, so I hope this clarification from the peanut gallery is useful.
[deleted]
I think he did it for all the time wasted and dealing with such a horrid experience on top of the $2. It's also opened up a discussion here where people have had even worse experiences. I think it's a great discussion to have.
Realistically, how much time did he waste over the benefits of the actually selling the item to someone who pays for the item. You take a risk when you enter into a contract without knowing what you are doing. How bad was the experience really? He said he got back MOST of what he wanted, but it appears that he needed to get $2 more in order to close this case, but they would not refund an unrefundable $2, that I would bet is told to you when you hit the confirmation page.
The OP goes to the extreme length saying to never sell on eBay, which is a crap response considering what he got back. eBay is a reasonable place to sell products to legitimate customers. Bad experiences exist everywhere, but it is not the overwhelming culture the OP makes it out to be. The generalization of his "bad" experience is not reasonable, so I'd like to know his rationale for doing that.
The OP goes to the extreme length saying to never sell on eBay, which is a crap response considering what he got back. eBay is a reasonable place to sell products to legitimate customers. Bad experiences exist everywhere, but it is not the overwhelming culture the OP makes it out to be. The generalization of his "bad" experience is not reasonable, so I'd like to know his rationale for doing that.
So let's say you sign up with a hosting provider and they are just terrible. Your site's down all the time and FTP is slow as molasses, etc. You go ask for a refund because not only did they not provide the level of service they advertised, they actively wasted your time. You'd be just fine if they said "Sure, but only most of it because of reasons"?
There's a lot of people echoing my experience here. So if there's a lot of people selling on eBay and getting nothing out of it but losing small amounts of money each time, I'm cool if that's something I prevent.
There's a lot of people echoing my experience here. So if there's a lot of people selling on eBay and getting nothing out of it but losing small amounts of money each time, I'm cool if that's something I prevent.
Should I follow your flawed logic? How does a crap host relate to eBay? Are you saying that eBay is a shit marketplace? Please provide proof to back up this defamatory claim. You took a risk using eBay's resource, you lost money due to a fee for using their resource, that is reasonable.
I gave you a chance to explain your rationale and you failed as all I'm getting is the feeling of someone who has a silver spoon in their mouth. It is a marketplace, you used their resource, someone didn't pay, you said you used one of their protections, it worked, but you needed to get an unrefundable $2 back, so you went to CS who did not want to refund it. There are more people who had a worse experience than this such as losing their item, fees, and not getting any support. If anything you got the closer to ideal case of this and you are complaining about it. That's crap.
I no longer have anything to contribute to this as I am wasting my time here.
I gave you a chance to explain your rationale and you failed as all I'm getting is the feeling of someone who has a silver spoon in their mouth. It is a marketplace, you used their resource, someone didn't pay, you said you used one of their protections, it worked, but you needed to get an unrefundable $2 back, so you went to CS who did not want to refund it. There are more people who had a worse experience than this such as losing their item, fees, and not getting any support. If anything you got the closer to ideal case of this and you are complaining about it. That's crap.
I no longer have anything to contribute to this as I am wasting my time here.
A petty injustice is still an injustice.
Good heavens on some scale every injustice is petty. You imply that the OP's problem is petty compared to more serious eBay dispute - but what stops someone from descrying the pettiness of those thousand-dollar disputes, because someone got screwed on a mortgage, worth tens or hundreds of thousands? What's to stop someone attacking you for bring up an injustice that just involves money when women are being systematically raped and murdered in sub Saharan Africa?
You need to get off your high horse and stop attacking someone for expressing disgust over a small amount of money.
I would add an important fact, one which I've never heard expressed but which I have not seen an exception to: the net sum of petty injustice in this world is far, far greater than the great injustices done in this world. The reason? Because people like you shut down those who would spend the time to fight it. Meanwhile, eBay takes $2 here, $2 there and laughs all the way to the bank with millions.
Good heavens on some scale every injustice is petty. You imply that the OP's problem is petty compared to more serious eBay dispute - but what stops someone from descrying the pettiness of those thousand-dollar disputes, because someone got screwed on a mortgage, worth tens or hundreds of thousands? What's to stop someone attacking you for bring up an injustice that just involves money when women are being systematically raped and murdered in sub Saharan Africa?
You need to get off your high horse and stop attacking someone for expressing disgust over a small amount of money.
I would add an important fact, one which I've never heard expressed but which I have not seen an exception to: the net sum of petty injustice in this world is far, far greater than the great injustices done in this world. The reason? Because people like you shut down those who would spend the time to fight it. Meanwhile, eBay takes $2 here, $2 there and laughs all the way to the bank with millions.
No you don't and I believe we both are. Hope the rest of your evening goes better.
http://gumtree.com.au is on the rise for things like your bookcase, but I agree, the market on eBay is much larger.
Yeah, funnily enough I listed the boat on gumtree as well, but got nothing but scammers! There was about 5 people that contacted me trying to run this scam: http://www.mactalk.com.au/8/80486-paypal-scam-carsguide.html
With the listing on e-bay I got two enquiries, both of which were legit. One of the interested parties ended up buying.
With the listing on e-bay I got two enquiries, both of which were legit. One of the interested parties ended up buying.
For used cars, gumtree is the business. I just sold a used car on there and had several times the response I did from the same ad on carsales.com.au, which cost $60, was much harder to use and so was basically poor value for money.
The fact that you can't leave negative feedback as a seller caught me off guard too. I understand that there are scammers on Ebay, that's just the way it is. But Ebay cares so little bit about its sellers, that it takes away their only defense. This just makes me just mad, especially since you have to pay all kinds of fees to list an auction.
Story time: I sold some eletronics to a guy in Italy. After it arrived, he accused me (in a Google Translate-based English message since he didn't speak German, despite bidding on an article with German description) that I sent a defective item and requested part of his money back. I explained to him that I tested it before sending, and that I would (despite not being required to) offer a full refund, but only if he sent the item back. If it turned out to be really defective, I even offered to pay all shipping costs.
The buyer then messaged me again, saying that it miracously worked after he "repaired" it, and since I did not send him a refund, he left me negative feedback. I tried to contact him twice, asking why he decided to keep the item but still give negative feedback, but he never responded. Only then I tried to give him negative feedback too, but to my surprise Ebay does not allow that. Had I known that before, I would have never ever even used Ebay.
Anyway, I contacted Ebay support, but they said that they do not want to remove the feedback, even though their FAQ states they can remove feedback in situations like this.
Story time: I sold some eletronics to a guy in Italy. After it arrived, he accused me (in a Google Translate-based English message since he didn't speak German, despite bidding on an article with German description) that I sent a defective item and requested part of his money back. I explained to him that I tested it before sending, and that I would (despite not being required to) offer a full refund, but only if he sent the item back. If it turned out to be really defective, I even offered to pay all shipping costs.
The buyer then messaged me again, saying that it miracously worked after he "repaired" it, and since I did not send him a refund, he left me negative feedback. I tried to contact him twice, asking why he decided to keep the item but still give negative feedback, but he never responded. Only then I tried to give him negative feedback too, but to my surprise Ebay does not allow that. Had I known that before, I would have never ever even used Ebay.
Anyway, I contacted Ebay support, but they said that they do not want to remove the feedback, even though their FAQ states they can remove feedback in situations like this.
I hate ebay/paypal just as much as most people but:
http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?CustomerSupport&...
Solved, done. Your $2 will return to you.
If your buyer agreed to cancel your transaction or didn't respond, you'll receive a credit to your seller's account for the final value fee within 7-10 business days of closing the case.
If you want a refund for your credit, see Requesting a refund of your eBay credit balance.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/refunds.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/cancel-transaction-process.h...
Granted it's buried in their help system, but it's there.
http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?CustomerSupport&...
Solved, done. Your $2 will return to you.
If your buyer agreed to cancel your transaction or didn't respond, you'll receive a credit to your seller's account for the final value fee within 7-10 business days of closing the case.
If you want a refund for your credit, see Requesting a refund of your eBay credit balance.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/refunds.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/cancel-transaction-process.h...
Granted it's buried in their help system, but it's there.
That's just for the Final Value Fee. He did that already, or he'd have been on the hook for more like $50 (eBay charges through the nose in fees, particularly for consumer electronics).
I tried selling my car on ebay motors and was a victim of spammers bidding on my car. I would get bids but within 2 days ebay would delete it automatically and email me saying bid was invalid. The whole bidding cycle went in vain so I re-listed again. This time I din't get any bids but I still ended up paying eBay $49 listing fees after numerous emails. eBay has become insane.
Same experience here. Once I found the 'block other countries and people with zero feedback' option I sold a few phones successfully at a good price (don't even try selling without setting that option).
A few weeks ago I attempted to sell an iPhone 4S. The first buyer pulled out with some pathetic excuse about his amplifier breaking. I re-listed and the second buyer didn't pay with some equally unlikely excuse about his daughter accidentally buying it.
eBay doesn't penalise non-paying buyers anywhere near enough, It's a huge waste of everybody's time, especially with time-sensitive sales.
eBay doesn't penalise non-paying buyers anywhere near enough, It's a huge waste of everybody's time, especially with time-sensitive sales.
eBay is a great place for scammers to get free stuff!
every few years, my girlfriend gives eBay another chance and tries selling something. Every single time, she gets scammed. Each time, the buyer claims he didn't receive the goods or received the wrong thing. eBay automatically sides with the buyer and immediately refunds their money. In cases where the buyer claims they received the wrong thing, they either fail to return it or return something different.
Furthermore, sellers cannot give negative feedback to buyers so there is no concept of buyer reputation. On top of this, you will still be charged for the listing.
Basically never use ebay.
Basically never use ebay.
I've used eBay to buy and sell furniture locally with some success. This is, however, a very small niche that is starting to be better served by http://gumtree.com.au here.
... And it's apparently owned by eBay. Nevermind. :(
I've never had that problem. Ship with delivery confirmation and insurance and you're safe.
A valid (but unchecked) point made in the comments from that post -
>... if you had actually sold it there, you’d have to pay the Ebay final value fee of like 5%. Then the Paypal transaction fee of like 7%. Then if you want the money the Paypal withdrawal fee of another like 6%. Wait, why am I paying the same company 3 times for 1 transaction?
>... if you had actually sold it there, you’d have to pay the Ebay final value fee of like 5%. Then the Paypal transaction fee of like 7%. Then if you want the money the Paypal withdrawal fee of another like 6%. Wait, why am I paying the same company 3 times for 1 transaction?
Using eBay these days feels like playing World of Warcraft.
If you're a high level eBay user, it's a fantastic place to move goods, but god forbid someone new signs up to buy or sell something. Just like what it must be like to sign up and play World of Warcraft for the first time.
If you're a high level eBay user, it's a fantastic place to move goods, but god forbid someone new signs up to buy or sell something. Just like what it must be like to sign up and play World of Warcraft for the first time.
Eh, I don’t know. Maybe I’m just lucky, but selling stuff on eBay (which I have done a grand total of three times during four years or so) always seems to work out for me.
In summer I sold my year old iPad 2 with a broken glass cover (otherwise fully functional, the 32GB/3G model) for €349 (someone bid €350 but told me after the auction that they thought the iPad was not broken – I was already writing off the sale at that point but the next bidder happily paid and left a very positive review). That’s just crazy! I thought I could get €100 or so tops, not half the original retail price!
Selling a camera and an iPod went similarly well. It probably goes wrong sometimes, though probably in a small minority of cases. And really, those $2 for listing the product really aren’t the end of the world. (Also, eBay has since forever been very explicit about those fees and that they have to be paid regardless of what happens. There is no way you can miss that when putting a product on there.)
In summer I sold my year old iPad 2 with a broken glass cover (otherwise fully functional, the 32GB/3G model) for €349 (someone bid €350 but told me after the auction that they thought the iPad was not broken – I was already writing off the sale at that point but the next bidder happily paid and left a very positive review). That’s just crazy! I thought I could get €100 or so tops, not half the original retail price!
Selling a camera and an iPod went similarly well. It probably goes wrong sometimes, though probably in a small minority of cases. And really, those $2 for listing the product really aren’t the end of the world. (Also, eBay has since forever been very explicit about those fees and that they have to be paid regardless of what happens. There is no way you can miss that when putting a product on there.)
I mentioned it below, but just to reply specifically here: eBay is very specific about fees that have to be paid regardless of sale, that's cool. I'd understand it totally if the auction just failed to be successful or if I'd backed out or whatever.
But when you fail that hard to provide a good product or service and people ask you for a refund, you give it to them. I've done it cheerfully for accounts up to a hundred dollars in fees even. This is just two bucks, and it's more the principle of the thing than the actual money anyhow.
I didn't just not sell my phone, I wasted weeks of time trying to fight their system to do it, and lost probably a good hundred dollars of resale value due to timing.
But when you fail that hard to provide a good product or service and people ask you for a refund, you give it to them. I've done it cheerfully for accounts up to a hundred dollars in fees even. This is just two bucks, and it's more the principle of the thing than the actual money anyhow.
I didn't just not sell my phone, I wasted weeks of time trying to fight their system to do it, and lost probably a good hundred dollars of resale value due to timing.
If you do sell broken stuff, mention it in the TITLE of the ad. It is very annoying having to go through an entire listing to find out it is broken.
I have had no problems selling and buying on ebay, in Australia and the UK. Maybe US is worse?
I have had no problems selling and buying on ebay, in Australia and the UK. Maybe US is worse?
Don't accuse me of something I didn't do. I very clearly marked the iPad as broken in its title. It was also categorized as such. I tried it out: When you search for iPads you have to explicitly mark a checkbox to even make broken iPads (including mine) appear in the search.
I'm still somewhat mystified how someone looking for a intact iPad could even have stumbled across my iPad. You have to be pretty explicit about wanting to see broken stuff on eBay.
(Resolving that issue, by the way, was actually a bit annoying. The mistaken buyer wrote me an e-mail, pleading me to not give her a negative review and asking for cancelling the sale. At that point you have to ask them to tell eBay that they mistakenly bought the product, otherwise you won't get your fees back. Offering the product to a lower bidder, however, is very painless and it did all work out in the end.)
I'm still somewhat mystified how someone looking for a intact iPad could even have stumbled across my iPad. You have to be pretty explicit about wanting to see broken stuff on eBay.
(Resolving that issue, by the way, was actually a bit annoying. The mistaken buyer wrote me an e-mail, pleading me to not give her a negative review and asking for cancelling the sale. At that point you have to ask them to tell eBay that they mistakenly bought the product, otherwise you won't get your fees back. Offering the product to a lower bidder, however, is very painless and it did all work out in the end.)
Yeah, there are all kinds of tools and procedures available to you but not made obvious, and all kinds of unwritten rules and guidelines to be aware of that you're never told about. Things you only learn because you get burnt once (or more).
And this applies equally to WoW and eBay, definitely. At least in WoW you generally have a guild to let you know in advance what mistakes you're likely to make. On eBay, you're on your own.
And this applies equally to WoW and eBay, definitely. At least in WoW you generally have a guild to let you know in advance what mistakes you're likely to make. On eBay, you're on your own.
Also rules change between regions, in AU eBay they encourage an email address on the listing for support. In the US the API will give you some abstract message about policies which you have to go away and guess yourself what it might be (turned out to be the email address)
At the risk of going off-topic, this is yet another example of regulatory capture at work: as systems evolve they often forget to cater to outsiders.
Codebases exhibit a similar dynamic. Open source projects need to track how long ago their newest regular contributor joined. I think they'll find the results illuminating.
Codebases exhibit a similar dynamic. Open source projects need to track how long ago their newest regular contributor joined. I think they'll find the results illuminating.
Have you played World of Warcraft? Is easier than ever to get into it from scratch. Cheaper (all expansions minus the last
Solution
Only use Buy It Now ever. Require Immediate Payment.
Not only are the fees lower for Buy It Now than for auctions, but there's no way for buyers to game you. The listing will sit until someone actually pays you.
Only use Buy It Now ever. Require Immediate Payment.
Not only are the fees lower for Buy It Now than for auctions, but there's no way for buyers to game you. The listing will sit until someone actually pays you.
As someone who uses eBay to buy specific out-of-print books, I vastly prefer the Buy It Now option, as long as the price is reasonable. I'm not really looking for incredible bargains, so auctions are just annoying.
With some items you might not know how much they're worth, but it's easy enough to determine the going price of a used iPhone.
With some items you might not know how much they're worth, but it's easy enough to determine the going price of a used iPhone.
Speaking of buy it now, I find it moronic that the buy it now button disappears when even one bid has been entered for the item.
This weekend I bid for an item, then 1 hour later decided that I wanted to pay the 10% extra for buy it now, discovered to my dismay that the buy it now option was gone, thought that the seller had manually removed it, got annoyed and retracted my bid, then saw the buy it now button come back (!) and then managed to buy it now.
I have no idea why they'd make the behavior like this...
This weekend I bid for an item, then 1 hour later decided that I wanted to pay the 10% extra for buy it now, discovered to my dismay that the buy it now option was gone, thought that the seller had manually removed it, got annoyed and retracted my bid, then saw the buy it now button come back (!) and then managed to buy it now.
I have no idea why they'd make the behavior like this...
It's to incentivize buyers to Buy It Now.
If you know that Buy It Now disappears as soon as someone bids, then you're more likely to Buy It Now because if you don't Buy It Now, you can't buy it later; you can only bid on it later, and then you might not get it. So if you want it, eBay wants you to Buy It Now.
Buy It Now.
If you know that Buy It Now disappears as soon as someone bids, then you're more likely to Buy It Now because if you don't Buy It Now, you can't buy it later; you can only bid on it later, and then you might not get it. So if you want it, eBay wants you to Buy It Now.
Buy It Now.
As an update, eBay reached out to me and returned my money as a site credit, with a long personally-written letter.
Which is, ultimately, not all that cool honestly. I'll be writing a follow-up about it, but the tl;dr is that it shouldn't take a popular internet rant to get things like this resolved.
Which is, ultimately, not all that cool honestly. I'll be writing a follow-up about it, but the tl;dr is that it shouldn't take a popular internet rant to get things like this resolved.
Yup, I've been writing about how eBay's gone to shit on my blog. Furthermore, between PayPal and eBay's fees, it's like 10% of your sale price now!
… Better just to sell via Amazon and use their fulfillment service.
… Better just to sell via Amazon and use their fulfillment service.
I tried selling a Mac on eBay once. First attempt I got a time waster, second attempt I got a con artist, third attempt my account got suspended.
eBay is great for buyers, a horrific minefield for sellers.
eBay is great for buyers, a horrific minefield for sellers.
This is so true I used to deal with selling on eBay for my business an every time I got off the phone with them I had to restrain from punching myself in the face.
Their customer support will literally only read from their script an no matter how much you reason and try to explain logic to them they just give a scripted answer back. Never doing business with them someone please invent something better.
Their customer support will literally only read from their script an no matter how much you reason and try to explain logic to them they just give a scripted answer back. Never doing business with them someone please invent something better.
Coming into a market as a new seller is always hard. The established merchants have already figured out who the thieves are, so the thieves generally target the new sellers. The established merchants don't want new sellers there, so they elbow them out in various ways.
Your experience would also be bad the first few times selling at a flea market or a street corner. Only with a fair bit of experience can you get your profit margin above zero.
Your experience would also be bad the first few times selling at a flea market or a street corner. Only with a fair bit of experience can you get your profit margin above zero.
I had a surprisingly similar experience from the other side. I purchased an iPhone 4 off of eBay and realized after receiving it that it was locked to the wrong carrier. I reviewed the auction and confirmed that the seller had listed an unconditional return policy (which I had specifically looked for while scanning auctions just in case ). The seller ended up refusing to honor the return policy and taunted me to contact eBay with it, who then simply refused to enforce the return policy. I was thankful in this situation that sellers can't leave negative feedback because I was able to leave negative feedback without anxiety over possible retaliation, but I can see how it'd be really annoying if I were a seller dealing with a dishonest buyer.
I had a similar, yet worse experience compared to this, and had my account suspended (an account from 2006!!) for not paying (after listing) when I didn't get a proper payment page. The UX is totally confusing as well, and I paid $6 with hopes that my account would be reinstated, but to no avail.
Ebay is a dinosaur and deserves to die a horrible death, it doesn't do what it says - make it easier to sell & buy. Gumroad and others in this space are the future.
Ebay is a dinosaur and deserves to die a horrible death, it doesn't do what it says - make it easier to sell & buy. Gumroad and others in this space are the future.
I recently tried to sell a Samsung Galaxy Tab on eBay, and had a similar experience. The second chance buyer, on the second listing, was the first person who was actually willing to buy the product and at that point the procedure went smoothly.
However, it should not take until the second buyer of the second listing, and if it is going to take that long ebay should indeed make it easier to get to someone who will actually buy my item.
However, it should not take until the second buyer of the second listing, and if it is going to take that long ebay should indeed make it easier to get to someone who will actually buy my item.
Same experience. I've also heard from many that after the sale, the buyer complains about an issue to PayPal and is able to get their money back.
Why doesn't eBay provide better ways for buyers to increase the belief of sellers that they will follow-thru on their obligations? I'm thinking of something along the lines of "earnest money" requirements common for real estate transactions. Could eBay require buyers to put 10% of their maximum bid in escrow via Paypal? If a buyer flaked out, he would lose his 10% to the seller as compensation for the time wasted. To implement such a scheme, eBay could at first offer sellers the opportunity to discount items won by buyers who made escrow deposits. Those buyers who didn't want to play along could bid as they do today albeit at an economic disadvantage. Eventually, eBay could allow sellers to require escrow. Even as a buyer, I would be happier if escrow was required because I would be less worried about shill bidders and others who run-up prices with no intention of paying. Of course, this scheme requires that all parties trust eBay/Paypal to act responsibly -- something the comments in this thread suggest is far from a given.
I was pretty frustrated when I sold my iPhone 4 when the 4S launched, had a winning bidder, who then never paid or contacted me. Couldn't leave negative feedback on them at all, and they continue to bid on stuff they don't intend on actually paying for, with sellers none the wiser that the bidder is a shitty person.
So a big part of the problem seems to be that sellers can no longer give buyers bad feedback when it is appropriate. Does anyone know the motivation for this rule change? I can't think of a type of fraud that this would prevent, but it seems like they must have been targeting something when making this change.
Buyers were afraid to leave honest feedback on sellers, due to the threat of retaliatory feedback. Some listings actually came close to extorting positive feedback, with high volume sellers bluntly saying things like, "You can't hurt us, we already have over 10000 positive feedbacks, so do as we say."
As for all of the second chance auctions being "ignored", I think it's common practice for 99% of ebayers to completely abandon the idea of winning a particular item (and moving on to another) the very second that they notice they have been outbid.
"Oh, well!" is what most of them say.
"Oh, well!" is what most of them say.
I get suspicious of second change emails. Why did the original buyer not want it? What did they find out?
It is probably from having my scam detector turned up to high, because of stories just like this. And also bidding on multiple items at once.
It is probably from having my scam detector turned up to high, because of stories just like this. And also bidding on multiple items at once.
Ugh, I never even thought of that.
It would be nice to have received a "no thanks" from even one of them from the I think six I sent out though. Not so say that I think they "owe" me that, but it would have done a lot to dissuade me from suspecting that most of the bids on my item were fraudulent.
It would be nice to have received a "no thanks" from even one of them from the I think six I sent out though. Not so say that I think they "owe" me that, but it would have done a lot to dissuade me from suspecting that most of the bids on my item were fraudulent.
This is ridiculous. They tell you ahead of time it cost money to list the item. Then they charge a % of the sale. He still had an auction. Surely he knew it was at least possible to have an auction fail. I just sold my 4s when I got my 5 for 350 and had no problems at all. He got a bit unlucky, they refunded everything but the listing fee, and he gets really pissed at them over 2 bucks?
eBay has to balance buyer vs. seller needs and that is not easy. Without the buyers you wouldn't have the market to sell it. Take the refund and try again or sell it on Craigslist. I bet you have more scammers there. (I tried Craigslist first and then settled for eBay after being asked to mail the phone to an overseas cousin 5 times)
eBay has to balance buyer vs. seller needs and that is not easy. Without the buyers you wouldn't have the market to sell it. Take the refund and try again or sell it on Craigslist. I bet you have more scammers there. (I tried Craigslist first and then settled for eBay after being asked to mail the phone to an overseas cousin 5 times)
The author mentions Kijiji ... which eBay owns.
I don't get why the default action of most people is to feel compelled by whatever a company's accounting system tells them to do. Both this and that also-popular cable box story. There are two autonomous sides to every relationship. If you don't value your ability to use ebay again in the future at more than $2, give their customer service department a good-faith 15 minutes of your time to fulfill their elective processes. If you can't come to an agreement with that reasonable time expenditure, tell them to go screw.
The problem with that is that they can forward it to a collection agency, whom when told to screw off, replies by screwing with your credit score.
So at that point you repudiate the debt again, this time to the collections agency. If they insist on unilaterally publicly claiming you owe money without any sort of actual proof, take them to court for slander. Clearly the buck stops somewhere, as I can't just call up a collection agency and tell them that bduerst owes me $1 for responding to his HN comment.
The proof is that you listed the items which is clearly logged and visible.. The charge is for the listing not successfully completing an auction/sale.
See, this is a prime example of what I mean. There's no dispute that he listed items, so proof of such is irrelevant. However, you're taking the purported meaning of the cryptically phrased document-that-nobody-reads as immutable truth. Fact is that ebay failed to successfully execute the auction - they accepted bids from the guys in the back with the way-out-of-range numbers hand-drawn on cardboard.
>...cryptically phrased document-that-nobody-reads as immutable truth.
If you agree to use a service without reading the fine print, then you're obligated to what you agree to. "Nobody reads it" is not an excuse that a judge uses to nullify a contract.
If you agree to use a service without reading the fine print, then you're obligated to what you agree to. "Nobody reads it" is not an excuse that a judge uses to nullify a contract.
The fact that they only offer phone support is not a company doing its fair share to try to connect with me over problems. It's them putting up roadblocks to try to avoid having to deal with me. Given that, I don't feel I have the obligation to attempt to sit through their various roadblocks.
It was honestly far easier and satisfying to just give them the two bucks and then report the facts of my experience onto the internet.
Plus, with any luck someone thinking about selling on eBay in the future will run across this post, think twice, and be saved the trouble I was. So I feel pretty good about that too.
It was honestly far easier and satisfying to just give them the two bucks and then report the facts of my experience onto the internet.
Plus, with any luck someone thinking about selling on eBay in the future will run across this post, think twice, and be saved the trouble I was. So I feel pretty good about that too.
The choice you made was between the two options they gave you. Either outcome is part of their system, and perfectly fine by them. There was also third option wherein you notify them that the debt is invalid because no services were rendered, and that it is not your responsibility to convince their systems and processes of that fact.
This is true, but who has the time and energy to fight every stupid Kafkaesque battle like this?
You're right, I would have been better off making this point in the Comcast thread instead of the $2 ebay one. :P
Yup, and in the end, I'm fine with the choice I made - pay them and then let people know how awful the experience was. This has been worth $2 for me, I hope it was worth $2 for them.
You could always sell through specialised phone recyclers, such as gazelle.com. You won't get the same price for it, but you won't get the hassle either.
I've had better success with eBay after using their buyer requirements option. It lets you ban users who do not meet your requirements from bidding.
As a result, my last batch of sales (3 computers and a few other items) had all of the bidders paying immediately upon completion of auction. Whereas my previous batch of sales when I did not know about this option, I had 3 time wasters who never posted payment.
As a result, my last batch of sales (3 computers and a few other items) had all of the bidders paying immediately upon completion of auction. Whereas my previous batch of sales when I did not know about this option, I had 3 time wasters who never posted payment.
I've been a long time eBay user and have also had issues over the past year with a couple of unpaid items and having to relist. The annoying part was not being able to give the buyer negative feedback, allowing him/her to waste someone else's time.
What about them linking your ID to Facebook for new users without let's say 10 feedback?
What about them linking your ID to Facebook for new users without let's say 10 feedback?
I just sold a variable autotransformer on ebay. "Just", as in, two hours ago.
Went fairly well, but my god ebay's integration with UPS is a complete clusterfuck. It was far, far easier to manually create a shipment on ups.com than trying to get ebay and UPS to communicate.
Went fairly well, but my god ebay's integration with UPS is a complete clusterfuck. It was far, far easier to manually create a shipment on ups.com than trying to get ebay and UPS to communicate.
In real auctions, when you bid you can not renege (otherwise the whole thing would fall apart). So why does eBay allow a bidder to bid and then not buy? That's ridiculous.
I launched http://www.flipso.com together with Idealab the other week, mostly because of experiences like these.
eBay has listing fees, of course you are going to be up for them regardless. Personally I would just set a reasonable price buy it now with immediate PayPal payment required, no need to waste your time then with anyone who hasn't already sent money your way.
Actually, if your auction doesn't sell, you can get most of your fees refunded. There are, however, some fees that they don't refund, for whatever reason, and those are what are leftover here.
And honestly, I don't fault them for that part specifically. I used their service which has fees as advertised, okay cool.
But what wasn't advertised was the incredible anti-seller bias, the terrible scammers I'd have to fight, and the absolutely awful customer service I'd have to endure. Normally when a company fails to provide a product that hard, you can ask for your money back and get it.
And honestly, I don't fault them for that part specifically. I used their service which has fees as advertised, okay cool.
But what wasn't advertised was the incredible anti-seller bias, the terrible scammers I'd have to fight, and the absolutely awful customer service I'd have to endure. Normally when a company fails to provide a product that hard, you can ask for your money back and get it.
I've had a number of attempts at adding a "Buy it now" and some scammer from Nigeria (every time) ends up "buying it" and sending phishing emails. Only to have to wait again to put it up for sale after a few days.
Had same problem, but not since I started requiring immediate payment.
Does that work with immediate PayPal required? How do they get around that req?
Way to go, adsense: http://grab.by/hdEo
This is a timely thread for me. I've been working on an idea called Auctionful - http://www.auctionful.com . Its still in an early stage - but you can signup and use it if you want.
* It lets people run auctions on their website.
* It ensures that the seller gets paid for the winning bid. The payment details are stored in a credit card vault when the bid is made.
* It uses the seller's account Stripe account to manage all payments.
* It verifies the seller's phone and email. And in cause of disputes, both parties are expected to resolve it themselves.
I've been incorporating feedback I've gotten so far to change the product, so feel free to comment on it.
* It lets people run auctions on their website.
* It ensures that the seller gets paid for the winning bid. The payment details are stored in a credit card vault when the bid is made.
* It uses the seller's account Stripe account to manage all payments.
* It verifies the seller's phone and email. And in cause of disputes, both parties are expected to resolve it themselves.
I've been incorporating feedback I've gotten so far to change the product, so feel free to comment on it.
A month or so later, the buyer put a chargeback on their credit card, got their money back from paypal, and I had no recourse. Worse still, Paypal charged ME $50 more because of the chargeback! Despite my sending them the code (which they requested, and through ebays messaging system), I had to have delivery confirmation from a shipper to prove I sent it. Even though they have the messages proving the delivery/receipt, too bad for me. I tried calling paypal, and that got nowhere. They said something like "sorry, it will cost $200 to investigate the chargeback further, so it's probably not worth it". I told them I'd write it off to my not understanding their policy on "seller protection", but at least do something about the scammers account. Of course they said they couldn't, nor could the refund any of the fees.
So now I'm out the $30 for my item, $50 more because paypal incurred a chargeback, plus ebay fees, plus the guy got positive feedback and went on to do this to other people! Totally incredulous.
Instead of blogging about it though, I've decided to build a company to compete with ebay. Wish me luck =)