Tipping doesn't make any sense(bernardi.me)
bernardi.me
Tipping doesn't make any sense
http://bernardi.me/2012/05/tipping-doesnt-make-any-sense/
25 comments
Personally, I'd say the biggest argument against tipping is that it tends to reflect many things that are largely outside the server's control: food quality, food preparation time, atmosphere, general dining experience.
This is tangent to your argument, but to this end, good servers have sense enough to leave bad restaurants. Servers are also the gatekeepers for feedback. If they aren't telling the cooks "this isn't coming out fast enough, my tables are getting hungry" or the manager "the silverware is filthy, who'd eat with this?", then they aren't doing their job. I'm not saying they should necessarily be penalized for poor cooking or management, I'm saying they are smart enough to take their services elsewhere, because good servers might be harder to find than you think.
This is tangent to your argument, but to this end, good servers have sense enough to leave bad restaurants. Servers are also the gatekeepers for feedback. If they aren't telling the cooks "this isn't coming out fast enough, my tables are getting hungry" or the manager "the silverware is filthy, who'd eat with this?", then they aren't doing their job. I'm not saying they should necessarily be penalized for poor cooking or management, I'm saying they are smart enough to take their services elsewhere, because good servers might be harder to find than you think.
Turnover among restaurant service staff is a huge industry issue; you'll find journal articles about it (there are, in fact, hospitality industry journals).
> I'm not sure the comparison to other industries is apt- servers serve you, and the majority of the quality of their output comes directly from their personal interactions with you.
So it is for your doctor or your cab driver.
> Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people)
Are either reserved for beyond flawless service or are basically bribes.
So it is for your doctor or your cab driver.
> Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people)
Are either reserved for beyond flawless service or are basically bribes.
For my doctor, the primary measure of his quality is how good he is at medicine– that is, whether I get better or not. I'd prefer that he's nice and friendly, but curing my bronchitis is the more important aspect of our interaction.
For a server, the interaction is the primary thing I care about.
For a server, the interaction is the primary thing I care about.
> For a server, the interaction is the primary thing I care about.
Really? Why would you do that? My primary measure of a server's quality is how fast he brings my food and how absent he is when I have no need for him. So the primary thing I care about would really be how close he is to the minimum amount of interaction necessary for service.
Really? Why would you do that? My primary measure of a server's quality is how fast he brings my food and how absent he is when I have no need for him. So the primary thing I care about would really be how close he is to the minimum amount of interaction necessary for service.
Not interfering at bad times is part of the quality of interaction that you can tip on. Furthermore, how fast he brings the food out is far more dependent on the kitchen staff than him, so penalizing him for it doesn't make any sense.
one could also say that a good server would come by and inform you that the your meal is taking a little longer then usual to cook because of some reason. If I am told that, I know that the server is at least trying. If the server is just absent for 30 minutes, then we have a problem.
We were apparently raised differently since I was raised to tip these people, as well as cab drivers.
Doctors and nurses serve you. bank and store clerks serve you. I'm sure there are many more examples.
The practice of tipping services a bunch of business purposes:
* It creates a spectrum of competition for server spots; service staff at fine dining restaurants make significant amounts of money but must hustle to secure those jobs; service staff at diners make reliable but low amounts of money and can easily find work.
* It functions as a commission system; servers who sell higher-priced products get superior returns from those tables, which suits the aims of the restaurant itself. Servers who can move wine make significantly more than servers who can't, and in good restaurants, wine is where the restaurant makes its money.
* It obviously helps ensure that servers are polite and helpful, which, restaurants being in the hospitality industry, is obviously a core part of the value proposition.
* More importantly, it incentivizes servers to increase table turnover.
These are all functions that could be managed at varying levels of effectiveness by other compensation schemes, but those other schemes don't actually improve outcomes for consumers; they raise prices and reduce transparency.
* It creates a spectrum of competition for server spots; service staff at fine dining restaurants make significant amounts of money but must hustle to secure those jobs; service staff at diners make reliable but low amounts of money and can easily find work.
* It functions as a commission system; servers who sell higher-priced products get superior returns from those tables, which suits the aims of the restaurant itself. Servers who can move wine make significantly more than servers who can't, and in good restaurants, wine is where the restaurant makes its money.
* It obviously helps ensure that servers are polite and helpful, which, restaurants being in the hospitality industry, is obviously a core part of the value proposition.
* More importantly, it incentivizes servers to increase table turnover.
These are all functions that could be managed at varying levels of effectiveness by other compensation schemes, but those other schemes don't actually improve outcomes for consumers; they raise prices and reduce transparency.
Funny. Universally, I've found the dining experience better in places where people don't tip... servers not pushing upgrades, no chasing people away to make room for new customers, knowing exactly how much you'll pay, plates not being snatched away before you can set the fork down, etc. Then again, I grew up in a culture where dinner is the main event, rather than the lead up to it.
My only restaurant experiences outside the US are in Europe, and my experiences are that service is perfectly friendly but much slower.
This doesn't impact me much (nothing wrong with a leisurely dinner), but it is murder on the small business owners of restaurants; below $50USD/table or so, success or failure in food service is all about turnover.
This doesn't impact me much (nothing wrong with a leisurely dinner), but it is murder on the small business owners of restaurants; below $50USD/table or so, success or failure in food service is all about turnover.
I'm not convinced those purposes really pan out, though.
Some alternative takes:
* A spectrum of competition can also be created the way it's done in any other industry: Expect a higher level of professionalism and competence from holders of higher-paying jobs, and attract more qualified employees by paying them more.
* A commission system can be handled the way it's done in any other industry: The employer sets the commission, and builds it into their price structure. This would be more transparent, since it means the consumer is being directly told how much the item will cost rather than being expected to do mental math to acquire its true price.
* Studies have shown there's not really a lot of correlation between the server's quality of service and the tip they get. It has a lot more to do with the temperament of the tipper, etc. It's not an incentive if it doesn't incentivize. And a basic demand for professionalism and courtesy works anywhere else. There's something fundamentally broken about a customer service philosophy that assumes your customer-facing employees need financial incentives to be nice to people. For one, it implies a poor opinion of the people who are doing the job.
* An straightforward commission would also encourage increased table turnover. Again, with more price transparency for the consumer, and more respect afforded to the server.
Some alternative takes:
* A spectrum of competition can also be created the way it's done in any other industry: Expect a higher level of professionalism and competence from holders of higher-paying jobs, and attract more qualified employees by paying them more.
* A commission system can be handled the way it's done in any other industry: The employer sets the commission, and builds it into their price structure. This would be more transparent, since it means the consumer is being directly told how much the item will cost rather than being expected to do mental math to acquire its true price.
* Studies have shown there's not really a lot of correlation between the server's quality of service and the tip they get. It has a lot more to do with the temperament of the tipper, etc. It's not an incentive if it doesn't incentivize. And a basic demand for professionalism and courtesy works anywhere else. There's something fundamentally broken about a customer service philosophy that assumes your customer-facing employees need financial incentives to be nice to people. For one, it implies a poor opinion of the people who are doing the job.
* An straightforward commission would also encourage increased table turnover. Again, with more price transparency for the consumer, and more respect afforded to the server.
How does a backend commission that customers play no part in improve transparency for customers? What's more transparent than "I can actually select the commission my servers gets, from 15-20%"?
Help me understand how tipping is customer-unfriendly, and jacked up menu prices and backend commissions aren't. I'm just not getting it. Is it just the requirement to do math?
Help me understand how tipping is customer-unfriendly, and jacked up menu prices and backend commissions aren't. I'm just not getting it. Is it just the requirement to do math?
It's partially the requirement to do math. Folks just aren't necessarily thinking about the eventual gratuity at order time, and can end up spending more than they intended when the time comes to calculate the tip. Meaning that, in essence, there's a sort of minor dishonesty built into the pricing scheme that encourages people to spend more.
Perhaps we're talking past each other on the wording of things. I'm drawing a distinction between "transparent pricing" and "flexible pricing".
Perhaps we're talking past each other on the wording of things. I'm drawing a distinction between "transparent pricing" and "flexible pricing".
Buy a bottle of wine at a restaurant and you are almost certainly paying 1.5x to 2x more than the bottle costs in the store right down the street. Bring your own bottle to a restaurant that serves wine and, because the restaurant expects to make much of its ROI on wine, they'll charge you a corkage fee. That's opaque pricing.
You can rail against wine markups too, I suppose. Of course, since most restaurants work on razor thin margins and most fail, there's not much point; they're charging what they need to succeed in their market.
You can rail against wine markups too, I suppose. Of course, since most restaurants work on razor thin margins and most fail, there's not much point; they're charging what they need to succeed in their market.
We also have to think of the tax that will be applied. You got out to eat and order a $7.95 burger/fries and a $1.50 soda[1]... most people already know that it'll be more than $10. It is not so hard to do the math. Since tax around here is in the 8.5-9.5% range, most of the time it can be safe to just double the tax on the receipt to get roughly 17-19% tip... round up if you want to show extra thanks... down if not. Many places will also print on the receipt the various percentages of tip so you don't even really have to do much at all but some multi-digit addition. So unless one has a hard time with "carry the 1" the math isn't that bad. I tend to over tip so I can get my grand total to a nice round number. And it is not uncommon for me to add an extra buck or two if my kids have made a huge mess of the place.
[1]But don't get me started on the extortion of $1.50 for a fountain drink.
[1]But don't get me started on the extortion of $1.50 for a fountain drink.
Of all these functions you list, why does the customer need to be involved? These could all be abstracted away from the user.
If servers were paid more (and tipping were no longer required), people could still tip on top of that. This still creates your "spectrum of competition."
If the restaurants were trying to encourage up-selling (your wine example), then they can give bonuses correlated to how much wine each waiter sells.
If tipping is mandatory, it doesn't ensure servers are polite and helpful! This is common sense. If tips are considered a guarantee, then the incentive to work harder is removed. Additionally, waiters are often rude when they feel they have been tipped poorly. So, again, tipping only when you've received exceptional service, makes more sense.
As for "transparency," I think the most transparent scheme would be customers are expected to pay the list price. No tacit agreements about tipping or service fees. If it's not a listed charge on the menu, it's not required and it is purely optional. How much more transparent and simple can you get?
If servers were paid more (and tipping were no longer required), people could still tip on top of that. This still creates your "spectrum of competition."
If the restaurants were trying to encourage up-selling (your wine example), then they can give bonuses correlated to how much wine each waiter sells.
If tipping is mandatory, it doesn't ensure servers are polite and helpful! This is common sense. If tips are considered a guarantee, then the incentive to work harder is removed. Additionally, waiters are often rude when they feel they have been tipped poorly. So, again, tipping only when you've received exceptional service, makes more sense.
As for "transparency," I think the most transparent scheme would be customers are expected to pay the list price. No tacit agreements about tipping or service fees. If it's not a listed charge on the menu, it's not required and it is purely optional. How much more transparent and simple can you get?
Exactly what is transparent about the "list price" on the menu? It can mean anything at all. It may reflect the cost of ingredients or track the laboriousness of prepping a dish, or it may instead track the popularity of the offering and have nothing whatsoever to do with expenses; in some cases, the list price on the menu may not even fully account for expenses and instead function as a loss leader.
The tip is the only transparent part about the price of a meal; in addition to its obvious surface meaning, understanding the subtext behind tipping also gives you an idea of what the restaurant wants you to do (eat faster, buy wine, &c) and adjust your behavior accordingly (towards or against the restaurant's interests).
The tip is the only transparent part about the price of a meal; in addition to its obvious surface meaning, understanding the subtext behind tipping also gives you an idea of what the restaurant wants you to do (eat faster, buy wine, &c) and adjust your behavior accordingly (towards or against the restaurant's interests).
Who cares? When you order from a menu, are you concerned about what percentages went to labor vs. food costs? I usually just pick that which seems healthy and delicious and which costs less a certain price I set for the meal. The only value I need is the total price I will be expected to pay.
Sum the menu items, and add 15%.
In other words, the value of service is a function of the cost of the items. The supposed transparency of tipping is tainted by the opaqueness of everything else...
Nothing is completely transparent, even the commodities markets. But tips are the most transparent part of restaurant pricing.
>>But tips are the most transparent part of restaurant pricing.
How and why are tips considered a part of 'pricing'?
Here in my country(India) I don't tip anybody, unless service delivered is exceptional. That is very important, because for an incentive to remain an incentive, it must be paid only when good work is done. Else it looses its value. Mandatory tips don't motivate servers, it just makes them complacent that they can do job as usual while they will be tipped anyway.
If tips are compulsory, they should make it a part of the bill. Something like 'Added 15% tip' and ask us to pay it as a part of the bill.
In such cases fast food restaurants will flourish, because no one wants to pay somebody a reward just for doing their job, like everybody does their job.
And please don't tell me how difficult servers are having it. Because every person who is working to make a living is having it difficult a way or the other. I work many hours in a month fire fighting, attending calls, working on late night issues, and sprinting towards deadlines. But I'm assumed to be OK with all that without being paid. I don't go around asking for tips.
Tip is not longer a tip when its mandatory, its more like service charges. I am OK with that, And will try to avoid such restaurants because I see no point in paying a service charge, when I can carry my food to the table.
How and why are tips considered a part of 'pricing'?
Here in my country(India) I don't tip anybody, unless service delivered is exceptional. That is very important, because for an incentive to remain an incentive, it must be paid only when good work is done. Else it looses its value. Mandatory tips don't motivate servers, it just makes them complacent that they can do job as usual while they will be tipped anyway.
If tips are compulsory, they should make it a part of the bill. Something like 'Added 15% tip' and ask us to pay it as a part of the bill.
In such cases fast food restaurants will flourish, because no one wants to pay somebody a reward just for doing their job, like everybody does their job.
And please don't tell me how difficult servers are having it. Because every person who is working to make a living is having it difficult a way or the other. I work many hours in a month fire fighting, attending calls, working on late night issues, and sprinting towards deadlines. But I'm assumed to be OK with all that without being paid. I don't go around asking for tips.
Tip is not longer a tip when its mandatory, its more like service charges. I am OK with that, And will try to avoid such restaurants because I see no point in paying a service charge, when I can carry my food to the table.
You are welcome to call US "tips" something other than "tips" because you object to the strained definition. What you're not welcome to do is dine in a US restaurant where tipping is expected and not pay the tip because of that semantic argument. Your last sentence expresses the correct tactic for handling this problem: don't dine out in the US.
US tips are not simply an incentive to provide extraordinary service, full stop.
US tips are not simply an incentive to provide extraordinary service, full stop.
Points 2 and 4 are against the interest of the customer, so why should the customer incentivize the server to perform them?
Not every part of the market for restaurant service is arranged for the benefit of the customer. Some of them are arranged to improve the viability of new restaurants. That's obviously an indirect benefit to customers, not a direct one.
I'm not interested in encouraging up-selling or table turnover, so you're saying I should not tip?
There are a lot of strange practices that exist within society and there are probably good historical reasons for why tipping emerged in the United States. Perhaps it'd be better not to fuss over it and instead focus on changing things that really matter, rather than fighting arbitrary social norms that are inconsequential in the long run.
Excuses. Excusing a wrong on any bases is a slippery slope which can lead to excuses for not "changing things that really matter".
Change is the common denominator. Change is what people have issues with and create excuses not to do.
Change is the common denominator. Change is what people have issues with and create excuses not to do.
I don't know why, but this is a topic about which people often hold very strong views. I agree with the author, but I feel like this viewpoint is discouraged, at least in the US; tipping is mandatory, and it is considered rude not to tip.
But, if tipping is mandatory, why not just advertise the real price? Take a cabe ride for example: I pay the driver to take me from point A to B. He (or she) completes this task, and I pay them. Very rarely do I feel like I have received exceptional service, and often the drivers are rude and impatient. But I have to tip at least 10-15% or I'm an asshole.
Maybe we'd all receive better service if we stopped compulsory tipping, and instead only tipped when we receive good customer service.
But, if tipping is mandatory, why not just advertise the real price? Take a cabe ride for example: I pay the driver to take me from point A to B. He (or she) completes this task, and I pay them. Very rarely do I feel like I have received exceptional service, and often the drivers are rude and impatient. But I have to tip at least 10-15% or I'm an asshole.
Maybe we'd all receive better service if we stopped compulsory tipping, and instead only tipped when we receive good customer service.
It's not "considered" rude not to tip in the US. It is rude not to tip. It may not make sense to you that restaurants underpay waitstaff in anticipation of tips, but they do. If you want to protest the practice, don't patronize businesses that encourage tipping.
For whatever it's worth to you, tipping isn't just an incentive scheme to get waitstaff to do their jobs well; it's also a commission and recruiting/retention practice.
I have no strong opinions about tipping cabs. I tip them, but the economics behind cab tips are not the same as for service staff. Cab drivers in Chicago are usually sole proprietors of their own businesses and can select their routes to maximize returns; about the most you could say is that they also have to deal with fixed fare rates, which themselves might be set in anticipation of tipping.
But refusing to tip restaurant servers is from what I can tell morally equivalent to taking money out of their pockets.
For whatever it's worth to you, tipping isn't just an incentive scheme to get waitstaff to do their jobs well; it's also a commission and recruiting/retention practice.
I have no strong opinions about tipping cabs. I tip them, but the economics behind cab tips are not the same as for service staff. Cab drivers in Chicago are usually sole proprietors of their own businesses and can select their routes to maximize returns; about the most you could say is that they also have to deal with fixed fare rates, which themselves might be set in anticipation of tipping.
But refusing to tip restaurant servers is from what I can tell morally equivalent to taking money out of their pockets.
From the post, Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington require minimum wage for waitstaff. Do you think tipping should be mandatory in these states?
How about all of the other service professionals which are paid a decent wage regardless of tips?
How about all of the other service professionals which are paid a decent wage regardless of tips?
Even in the minority of states that require minimum wage for waitstaff, waitstaff wages are adjusted in anticipation of tips. Service staff at good restaurants do not, as a rule, make minimum wage.
Other service professionals are paid a market wage. The bus driver, to continue with the particularly inept example used by this blog post, has in many localities also been compensated with a pension.
Other service professionals are paid a market wage. The bus driver, to continue with the particularly inept example used by this blog post, has in many localities also been compensated with a pension.
>>Even in the minority of states that require minimum wage for waitstaff, waitstaff wages are adjusted in anticipation of tips.
So you're saying that in California, Alaska, ..., that waitstaff can't still earn under minimum wage if they report tips? I don't think this is true, at least in CA.
>>Service staff at good restaurants do not, as a rule, make minimum wage.
Yes, they often make more. Not substantially more, but I know waiters who work at good restaurants and they can make 9 or 10 per hour, plus tips.
I don't get what you're saying about bus drivers. We should tip them, too?
My point -- and I think the orignal point of this whole thread -- is that we (consumers) should be aware what we are expected to pay. The final price should be the price we read on the menu. If you feel you have received exceptional service, then feel free to tip on top of the base price. Otherwise, if tips are compulsory, then the price should reflect this!
So you're saying that in California, Alaska, ..., that waitstaff can't still earn under minimum wage if they report tips? I don't think this is true, at least in CA.
>>Service staff at good restaurants do not, as a rule, make minimum wage.
Yes, they often make more. Not substantially more, but I know waiters who work at good restaurants and they can make 9 or 10 per hour, plus tips.
I don't get what you're saying about bus drivers. We should tip them, too?
My point -- and I think the orignal point of this whole thread -- is that we (consumers) should be aware what we are expected to pay. The final price should be the price we read on the menu. If you feel you have received exceptional service, then feel free to tip on top of the base price. Otherwise, if tips are compulsory, then the price should reflect this!
No, I'm saying that the minimum wage issue is still largely moot, because servers in good restaurants make much better than minimum wage. But the prevailing wage for any given restaurant, which is set by the market and not by the government, anticipates tips.
The blog post asked why we don't tip bus drivers. I've never tipped a bus driver. CTA bus drivers have pensions.
You are expected to tip 15%-20%. This is not hard information to come by. You should assume that tips are compulsory, unless something very bad happened with service. I've never undertipped for service issues.
The blog post asked why we don't tip bus drivers. I've never tipped a bus driver. CTA bus drivers have pensions.
You are expected to tip 15%-20%. This is not hard information to come by. You should assume that tips are compulsory, unless something very bad happened with service. I've never undertipped for service issues.
> Other service professionals are paid a market wage. The bus driver, to continue with the particularly inept example used by this blog post, has in many localities also been compensated with a pension.
Which is the whole point, if pretty much every other service professional is paid a market wage, how are waiters different?
Which is the whole point, if pretty much every other service professional is paid a market wage, how are waiters different?
Waiters are paid a market wage that anticipates tips. Diners and restaurant owners are, along with servers, participants in the market. Just because the market for restaurant service is not organized exactly the way the market for bus drivers is doesn't make it not a market --- in fact, given the public pension situation in most US states, the market for restaurant service is far more efficient than it is for bus drivers.
City bus drivers are surly and, at least in the case of San Francisco, obviously not even properly incentivized to properly stop the bus and pick up passengers. But because you have virtually no role in determining the compensation of a bus driver, the fact that buses are driven poorly has little bearing on how much the drivers make; instead, public sector unions play the largest role in establishing wages.
City bus drivers are surly and, at least in the case of San Francisco, obviously not even properly incentivized to properly stop the bus and pick up passengers. But because you have virtually no role in determining the compensation of a bus driver, the fact that buses are driven poorly has little bearing on how much the drivers make; instead, public sector unions play the largest role in establishing wages.
And for non-public transit bus drivers (e.g charter buses) tipping is more common.
Please excuse my ignorance, but how is not tipping the servers considered rude ("morally equivalent to taking money out of their pockets"), and flat-out lying about the prices isn't? If I'm told one price, and am considered a thief if I pay it exactly, this is morally acceptable? I'm a bit confused here.
You're welcome to consider the 15% uplift virtually everyone in America knows is trained from adolescence to know is there is "flat out lying", but whether or not you think that has nothing to do with whether knowingly and willfully not paying it is immoral.
I'm pretty sure even in Europe they teach kids, young kids, about what two wrongs add up to.
I'm pretty sure even in Europe they teach kids, young kids, about what two wrongs add up to.
I'm all hears for a solution to this problem. I've been thinking about it and failing at it. The system is really ubiquitous at the moment.
Many regions of the world work just fine without tipping, so the difficulty would be in the transition. Have any cultures successfully made the transition from tipping to not-tipping?
Seems like the only start toward doing so would be to force minimum wage standards to be applied to all workers. This would benefit some but cause significant hardships to some others, so it seems to me unlikely to be achievable.
Seems like the only start toward doing so would be to force minimum wage standards to be applied to all workers. This would benefit some but cause significant hardships to some others, so it seems to me unlikely to be achievable.
Many regions of the world may "work just fine", but I'll put the service you'll get at an average priced sit down restaurant in an averaged sized city of the U.S. against a comparable establishment anywhere else on Earth. That's not to say there aren't friendly, competent staff everywhere, but at least my anecdotal experience has been that the U.S. and its tipping culture excels at providing good to excellent service on average.
The chief advantage of tipping is that it encourages people who are skilled at providing customer service to stay in the industry and those who are not to leave. Other feedback mechanisms might be possible, but they'd be much more complex.
The chief advantage of tipping is that it encourages people who are skilled at providing customer service to stay in the industry and those who are not to leave. Other feedback mechanisms might be possible, but they'd be much more complex.
What does 'just fine' mean? There is a large restaurant service disparity between the US and Europe.
How much of a problem is this?
You said that it wasn't money -- that it was just not knowing the cost. If that's true, I don't understand at all -- the cost is 20% more than the listed price. If you see a burger at $10, that's really $12 -- it's the same problem as dining in a foreign currency -- the exchange rate for $ to R$ (restaurant dollars) is 1.200.
You said that it wasn't money -- that it was just not knowing the cost. If that's true, I don't understand at all -- the cost is 20% more than the listed price. If you see a burger at $10, that's really $12 -- it's the same problem as dining in a foreign currency -- the exchange rate for $ to R$ (restaurant dollars) is 1.200.
For the longest time I was wondering why you were saying that the exchange rate from US dollars to Brazilian Reais is 1.2 when its actually closer to 2.0 ...
Love this article. I worked in the restaurant industry for 6 years, mainly as a cook, so I didn't get tipped as my wages were decent, but when I did exceptional service, I did receive a "Please give this to the cook" tip and it made me feel good. I normally tip, but at the same time, I hate that people feel they are mandatory to tip... No it's a reason for exceptional service, not "I served you food, you tip me". If you rely on your tips then look for a different job. If you make me feel obligated to tip you, I won't and it won't bother me either.
That being said, I am really bad at tipping $10 for a $5 beer... :(
That being said, I am really bad at tipping $10 for a $5 beer... :(
First, I have to agree, tipping is a bizarre system/cultural norm, and I am very curious about how, historically, this came to be...
From my perspective, I spent a year working as a barista and bartender part-time when I first moved to New York, and I would estimate that 80% of those who work as a waiter, barista or bartender do it to support themselves as they pursue whatever it is they do (the usual suspects: acting, art, music, writing, school etc.). This is what kids do to get by--they're not committed in any way to the place they work.
At my coffee shop (not at restaurants or bars) I got paid minimum wage plus tips, which at the time was something like $8 + on average $4 to $8 an hour. I can't say I agreed or disagreed with the system at the time, or that I even thought about it, but from my experience the lure of tips greatly outweighed any set amount of (low) salary I would have received. For example, I've gotten a couple $100 tips from Wall St. ballers, or one time $40 from a man just for pouring a cup of coffee! If you work at any number of restaurants, the odds are much higher that on any given night, you will win the tip lottery. And the more a man drinks, the more he will open his heart (and wallet) to the young, struggling artist behind the bar.
For the waiter/bartender/barista, I would guess that the average wage comes out to about the same as a respectable working wage for the skills involved (maybe $15-$20/hr). If you work at a Michelin rated restaurant, you would have to get a much much higher starting salary to compensate for a lack of tips, at least in NYC.
From my perspective, I spent a year working as a barista and bartender part-time when I first moved to New York, and I would estimate that 80% of those who work as a waiter, barista or bartender do it to support themselves as they pursue whatever it is they do (the usual suspects: acting, art, music, writing, school etc.). This is what kids do to get by--they're not committed in any way to the place they work.
At my coffee shop (not at restaurants or bars) I got paid minimum wage plus tips, which at the time was something like $8 + on average $4 to $8 an hour. I can't say I agreed or disagreed with the system at the time, or that I even thought about it, but from my experience the lure of tips greatly outweighed any set amount of (low) salary I would have received. For example, I've gotten a couple $100 tips from Wall St. ballers, or one time $40 from a man just for pouring a cup of coffee! If you work at any number of restaurants, the odds are much higher that on any given night, you will win the tip lottery. And the more a man drinks, the more he will open his heart (and wallet) to the young, struggling artist behind the bar.
For the waiter/bartender/barista, I would guess that the average wage comes out to about the same as a respectable working wage for the skills involved (maybe $15-$20/hr). If you work at a Michelin rated restaurant, you would have to get a much much higher starting salary to compensate for a lack of tips, at least in NYC.
On another note, I think it's important to separate discussions on whether you disagree with the tip system from discussions on whether, assuming you disagree with the tip system, you should tip or not.
I think this is the source of a lot of the animosity around this issue- debating the merits of tipping is fine, but not tipping at a restaurant where it's expected takes out your frustration with a system by punishing a person (the server) who has no control over that system.
I think this is the source of a lot of the animosity around this issue- debating the merits of tipping is fine, but not tipping at a restaurant where it's expected takes out your frustration with a system by punishing a person (the server) who has no control over that system.
Being European I have never understood the tipping culture. However the Brits (and other European countries) don't have a tipping culture but have a '12.5% service charge' at restaurants.
I believe to avoid any ambiguity you simply have a all or nothing policy.
I believe to avoid any ambiguity you simply have a all or nothing policy.
If an establishment has a declared service rate, I'm much less likely to consider tipping in excess of that rate, even for service that would receive more from me elsewhere.
If they've decided what they're worth, who am I to argue?
If they've decided what they're worth, who am I to argue?
I am torn between wanting transparency and simplicity.
Transparency - I want to know what expenses make up the final price I pay.
Simplicity - I just want to pay one single figure.
This may explain the anger over airfares. People complained airfares cost too much. Then companies like Ryan Air broke down the costs. Then people got angry that the individual costs were unfair.
Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't?
Transparency - I want to know what expenses make up the final price I pay.
Simplicity - I just want to pay one single figure.
This may explain the anger over airfares. People complained airfares cost too much. Then companies like Ryan Air broke down the costs. Then people got angry that the individual costs were unfair.
Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't?
Ryanair broke down the charges, but tended to have "FLY TO PARIS ONLY £9!!!" in huge type, with a list of additions in tiny type at the end of the ads.
I don't know about other Americans, but when I visit other countries I typically find the servers nice but slow and the overall quality of service much lower.
When I was a server I would work hard to make sure I got every dollar. The tip is always on your mind, all night.
The other good thing about tipping is that it also makes the job a sales job. The higher the bill, the higher the tip and therefore it properly aligns incentives with the restaurant. The exception to that is fraud where a server provides free items to attempt to get a larger tip.
I get that it must be extremely irritating for people from outside the US to get a price and then have to do the math to figure out what it really costs, but that is a small price to pay for superior service all the time.
When I was a server I would work hard to make sure I got every dollar. The tip is always on your mind, all night.
The other good thing about tipping is that it also makes the job a sales job. The higher the bill, the higher the tip and therefore it properly aligns incentives with the restaurant. The exception to that is fraud where a server provides free items to attempt to get a larger tip.
I get that it must be extremely irritating for people from outside the US to get a price and then have to do the math to figure out what it really costs, but that is a small price to pay for superior service all the time.
I'm European, and am used to not tipping— and I hate service in the US :)
Waiters come bother you every 5 minute asking if everything ok, if they can refill your water, etc. I just like to enjoy my food and have conversation with my tablemates without being interrupted every 5 minute. In France, the waiter comes to take your order and give you your food, and that's it. You usually have a caraffe of water and a basket of bread on the table so that you don't have to wait on the waiter's good will to refill your glass.
Additionally, in the US, you tend to be escorted out as soon as you're finished eating because the more tables the waiter serves, the more money he makes. This is extremely irritating— after I'm done eating, I like taking the time to talk with people and hangout without having the bill shoved in my face and the waiter asking us to leave (happened a few times). In France, you leave whenever you want to (unless the restaurant is extremely busy I assume, but it never happened to me).
So no, I wouldn't call the service "superior"— rather more irritating and intrusive because that's the best way to get a good tip, while pretending to be superior.
Waiters come bother you every 5 minute asking if everything ok, if they can refill your water, etc. I just like to enjoy my food and have conversation with my tablemates without being interrupted every 5 minute. In France, the waiter comes to take your order and give you your food, and that's it. You usually have a caraffe of water and a basket of bread on the table so that you don't have to wait on the waiter's good will to refill your glass.
Additionally, in the US, you tend to be escorted out as soon as you're finished eating because the more tables the waiter serves, the more money he makes. This is extremely irritating— after I'm done eating, I like taking the time to talk with people and hangout without having the bill shoved in my face and the waiter asking us to leave (happened a few times). In France, you leave whenever you want to (unless the restaurant is extremely busy I assume, but it never happened to me).
So no, I wouldn't call the service "superior"— rather more irritating and intrusive because that's the best way to get a good tip, while pretending to be superior.
It's subjective. Whichever standard you're used to, the opposite is irritating.
As an example, when I (an American) visited France and Italy, I couldn't stand that it took 30+ minutes after finishing our meals to pay the bill and get out of there.
But that's not really linked to tipping or the lack thereof; tipping's unusual in Japan, and yet they're the gold standard for getting out of a restaurant quickly once your meal is done.
As an example, when I (an American) visited France and Italy, I couldn't stand that it took 30+ minutes after finishing our meals to pay the bill and get out of there.
But that's not really linked to tipping or the lack thereof; tipping's unusual in Japan, and yet they're the gold standard for getting out of a restaurant quickly once your meal is done.
Protip for your next travel: if you're in a hurry and want to pay the bill fast in France, you can just walk up to the counter and pay there :)
Interesting about Japan.
Interesting about Japan.
Anecdotally you can do this many places in the UK, too. Don't have to wait for them to get the payment processor machine either!
>So no, I wouldn't call the service "superior"— rather more irritating and intrusive because that's the best way to get a good tip, while pretending to be superior.
This seems to lend more support to the inference that you personally have atypical preferences than it does to the inference that the American tipping system as a whole doesn't result in greater aggregate satisfaction with service.
You acknowledge that most people tip more when their servers do things that you find "irritating and intrusive." To me, this suggests that most people don't find those things irritating and intrusive, and in fact like them, and that's why they're willing to surrender more money when they experience them.
This seems to lend more support to the inference that you personally have atypical preferences than it does to the inference that the American tipping system as a whole doesn't result in greater aggregate satisfaction with service.
You acknowledge that most people tip more when their servers do things that you find "irritating and intrusive." To me, this suggests that most people don't find those things irritating and intrusive, and in fact like them, and that's why they're willing to surrender more money when they experience them.
This is extremely irritating— after I'm done eating, I like taking the time to talk with people and hangout without having the bill shoved in my face and the waiter asking us to leave (happened a few times).
Pure curiosity here, have you ever been waiting to get into a restaurant, wishing some people would leave so you may be seated? Wouldn't you be more comfortable hanging out in a lounge?
Pure curiosity here, have you ever been waiting to get into a restaurant, wishing some people would leave so you may be seated? Wouldn't you be more comfortable hanging out in a lounge?
People have weird reactions. If a guy discovers his girlfriend is sleeping with someone else, he will be angry at the other guy. Why? The 'other guy' had no relation with him, he simply met a nice girl and wanted to have a good time. The girl was in a relation with him; he should be angry at her!
When I enter a restaurant, I see a price on the menu and this is what I intend to pay. When I order the food, this is my agreement with the restaurant: pay what is asked. The server might be angry at me for not giving any tip, but as with the previous example, I have nothing to do with any contract the restaurant owner and the server might have. He accepted to work for a given salary. I might give a little extra if there's a parade for me or something, but not for just doing your job.
When I enter a restaurant, I see a price on the menu and this is what I intend to pay. When I order the food, this is my agreement with the restaurant: pay what is asked. The server might be angry at me for not giving any tip, but as with the previous example, I have nothing to do with any contract the restaurant owner and the server might have. He accepted to work for a given salary. I might give a little extra if there's a parade for me or something, but not for just doing your job.
"Why don’t we tip the bus driver? And the doctors?"
I worked a couple of years as a lifeguard making essentially minimum wage and saved two children during that time. I received a thank you and appreciated it, but think there should be room for a ten spot.
I worked a couple of years as a lifeguard making essentially minimum wage and saved two children during that time. I received a thank you and appreciated it, but think there should be room for a ten spot.
We dined at Nardo's in Havana a summer ago. It's off of Central Park, in front of the Capitolium. Had a great time.
The waiter brought us a bill with a 10% service charge and I asked whether a tip was expected. I don't remember why I asked, perhaps the service charge seemed low or maybe I was just curious.
The waiter told me that of course the tip was expected... on top of the 10% service charge. This is because the service charge covers the staff in the kitchen while the tip covers the waiter :D.
The waiter brought us a bill with a 10% service charge and I asked whether a tip was expected. I don't remember why I asked, perhaps the service charge seemed low or maybe I was just curious.
The waiter told me that of course the tip was expected... on top of the 10% service charge. This is because the service charge covers the staff in the kitchen while the tip covers the waiter :D.
So... You asked a guy if he should receive more money or less, and are surprised that he chose the first option?
"I don't tip because society says I have to. All right, if someone deserves a tip, if they really put forth an effort, I'll give them something a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doing their job." -- Mr. Pink, 'Reservoir Dogs'
In robotised restaurants Americans will be leaving customary 20% tip for software and hardware maintenance crew.
I wonder how the math works out versus a no-tip scenario?
Tips are money that doesn't come out of the restaurant owner's pocket. Restaurants tend to run on pretty thin margins, so let's treat this as a zero sum game and assume that any increase in wait staff wages is necessarily passed on to the consumer. I know next to nothing about what a waitress earns or how a restaurant is run, so I'd appreciate if anyone wanted to shoot holes in my reasoning here. I'm genuinely curious, so treat this as a proposition of method, rather than proof.
Florida minimum wage for tipped employees is $4.65/hr. I live in Florida, so I'll go with that.
$4.65 x 40 hrs a week x 52 weeks a year is $9,672.00
I've known local waitresses who claim to take home around $30k a year (with tips).
$30k annually works out to a wage of $14.42/hr given the same 40 hrs x 52 weeks work schedule.
$14.42 is about 3 times $4.65
So in a general sense, the restaurant owner would have to pay his wait staff (around) three times as much in order to meet their tipped wage. Not having run a restaurant, I have no idea how that would affect the price of a meal. Can anyone with more knowledge pick it up from here?
Tips are money that doesn't come out of the restaurant owner's pocket. Restaurants tend to run on pretty thin margins, so let's treat this as a zero sum game and assume that any increase in wait staff wages is necessarily passed on to the consumer. I know next to nothing about what a waitress earns or how a restaurant is run, so I'd appreciate if anyone wanted to shoot holes in my reasoning here. I'm genuinely curious, so treat this as a proposition of method, rather than proof.
Florida minimum wage for tipped employees is $4.65/hr. I live in Florida, so I'll go with that.
$4.65 x 40 hrs a week x 52 weeks a year is $9,672.00
I've known local waitresses who claim to take home around $30k a year (with tips).
$30k annually works out to a wage of $14.42/hr given the same 40 hrs x 52 weeks work schedule.
$14.42 is about 3 times $4.65
So in a general sense, the restaurant owner would have to pay his wait staff (around) three times as much in order to meet their tipped wage. Not having run a restaurant, I have no idea how that would affect the price of a meal. Can anyone with more knowledge pick it up from here?
If, after increasing the wages, tipping is no longer 'required' of customers, the total price of a meal would stay roughly the same. The owner would raise the price of the meal by about 15%, and pass that on to the servers, however tips would no longer be expected.
There have been many discussions about whether or not servers will spit in your food if you're known not to tip. Whether this actually happens frequently or not (I don't believe it happens very often), it's a fear many people have and is probably a factor that keeps tipping alive.
Then why do people tip cab drivers and hairdressers and bellhops?
The problem is that we are already in a vicious cycle, you can't break this cycle by not tipping though, all that does is screw the waiter/waitress. If we want to change things we need to do it with litigation to prevent employers from paying less than minimum wage.
Tipping would work better if people increased the tipping variance. When I have really shitty service => no tip. OK service 12% because anything less and I'm considered a jerk.
Why isn't 5% standard for OK, but rushed service?
Why isn't 5% standard for OK, but rushed service?
That's pretty much how it works in Central Europe, with the difference that 10% and more goes for great service.
It's my (uninformed and second-hand) impression that tipping-culture is often defined whether the waiters\servers are given minimum livable salary or whether the tip is the larger income.
I'd love to hear from the HN community reasons that make this one a good system, and hope to not generate too much of a religious war.
You ask reasonable questions, the problem (like anything else involving disrupting an existing practice) is implementing it. You can’t just go around not tipping, in the hopes that decent waiters will start demanding higher wages from their employers. I mean, you can, and you’ll save some money, but you won’t change the system by yourself.
Also, your objection to paying a percentage of the bill is not the strongest point in the article. It’s true that Fedex charge me the same money to deliver an envelope containing a contract worth $10,000 as they do to deliver a birthday card worth $5. They would probably love to charge me more for the contract, that would help them with price discrimination. But since they can’t peek at the contents of the envelope, they try to find a proxy for value in the form of speed of delivery. Rush service costs more, ostensibly because the sooner you need it, the more valuable it is and the more you’re willing to pay.
Sometimes, that’s way off like with a birthday card you’re trying to get delivered in time for a birthday, but on the whole the system is good enough. Likewise with tipping. Forget about trying to value the service by the cost to deliver it. The system is trying to charge you what you can afford, and the amount you spend on the food is close enough to make things work out most of the time.
The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone. You need a dramatic and disruptive change to the entire thing to move it to another local maximum.
I encourage you to think of this as an exercise in startup business planning. Imagine there was a YC company that “fixed” the system. What product or service would it provide and how would it extract value from the current inefficiencies?
Also, your objection to paying a percentage of the bill is not the strongest point in the article. It’s true that Fedex charge me the same money to deliver an envelope containing a contract worth $10,000 as they do to deliver a birthday card worth $5. They would probably love to charge me more for the contract, that would help them with price discrimination. But since they can’t peek at the contents of the envelope, they try to find a proxy for value in the form of speed of delivery. Rush service costs more, ostensibly because the sooner you need it, the more valuable it is and the more you’re willing to pay.
Sometimes, that’s way off like with a birthday card you’re trying to get delivered in time for a birthday, but on the whole the system is good enough. Likewise with tipping. Forget about trying to value the service by the cost to deliver it. The system is trying to charge you what you can afford, and the amount you spend on the food is close enough to make things work out most of the time.
The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone. You need a dramatic and disruptive change to the entire thing to move it to another local maximum.
I encourage you to think of this as an exercise in startup business planning. Imagine there was a YC company that “fixed” the system. What product or service would it provide and how would it extract value from the current inefficiencies?
What product or service would it provide and how would it extract value from the current inefficiencies?
Tipping compensates for a restaurant owner's lack of information about the quality of her staff's effect on her business. If she were certain that a particular server was repeatedly producing highly satisfied customers who were likely to return or recommend the establishment to their friends, it would be in her best interest to pay that server more to retain his services.
The trick would be getting this feedback in a way that saves the customer from a 10-20% markup. Yelp reviews occasionally capture servers' names, but that's not likely to produce a useful sample, even putting aside all the usual problems with social review sites.
One could imagine some sci-fi mood monitoring technology that could tell the owner in real time which patrons were satisfied or agitated, and that data could be correlated to the server, the chef, the size of the bill...
The middle ground would be creating a low-friction, high-reliability scoring mechanism. But it can be hard to get honest feedback when the customer's money isn't on the table.
Tipping compensates for a restaurant owner's lack of information about the quality of her staff's effect on her business. If she were certain that a particular server was repeatedly producing highly satisfied customers who were likely to return or recommend the establishment to their friends, it would be in her best interest to pay that server more to retain his services.
The trick would be getting this feedback in a way that saves the customer from a 10-20% markup. Yelp reviews occasionally capture servers' names, but that's not likely to produce a useful sample, even putting aside all the usual problems with social review sites.
One could imagine some sci-fi mood monitoring technology that could tell the owner in real time which patrons were satisfied or agitated, and that data could be correlated to the server, the chef, the size of the bill...
The middle ground would be creating a low-friction, high-reliability scoring mechanism. But it can be hard to get honest feedback when the customer's money isn't on the table.
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> You ask reasonable questions, the problem (like anything else involving disrupting an existing practice) is implementing it.
It really isn't that hard: remove "tipped staff" exceptions to US labor laws and everybody will adjust quite fast.
> The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone.
Do you really? That seems to be an assertion based on absolutely no foundations.
It really isn't that hard: remove "tipped staff" exceptions to US labor laws and everybody will adjust quite fast.
> The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone.
Do you really? That seems to be an assertion based on absolutely no foundations.
Try not tipping and returning regularly to the same restaurant. Do you get a better outcome? If you’re a waiter, try negotiating a higher salary with your employer in exchange for telling diners that they need not tip. How does your salary negotiation work out?
You could try opening a restaurant, paying higher wages, and telling patrons they needn’t tip. It might work out for you. What I personally think will happen is that someone will notice that you charge approximately 15% more than your competition to cover your higher labour costs. In effect you’ll be just like those places that impose a mandatory “service charge” on meals.
So someone will figure it out and write a blog post saying how much they hate mandatory service charges and you should let them decide whether to pay less than 15% if the service is terrible. And we’d be back to square one.
You could try opening a restaurant, paying higher wages, and telling patrons they needn’t tip. It might work out for you. What I personally think will happen is that someone will notice that you charge approximately 15% more than your competition to cover your higher labour costs. In effect you’ll be just like those places that impose a mandatory “service charge” on meals.
So someone will figure it out and write a blog post saying how much they hate mandatory service charges and you should let them decide whether to pay less than 15% if the service is terrible. And we’d be back to square one.
It really isn't that hard: remove "tipped staff" exceptions to US labor laws and everybody will adjust quite fast.
Many waiters in high end restaurants are paid more than minimum wage, but you're still expected to tip.
Many waiters in high end restaurants are paid more than minimum wage, but you're still expected to tip.
the example receipt from the article shows a frustrating concept that has always bothered me. the included 20% gratuity value is actually 20% of the after-tax total, not the pre-tax total. what logic would exist to tip on any sort of tax?
Probably the same reason that stuff I order internationally and pay import duty on invariably includes the cost of delivery (which can be £50+ for US reasonably-fast shipping) as the 'package value' declaration.
I can't easily imagine a system where this makes sense.
I can't easily imagine a system where this makes sense.
Regardless of anything else, it's wrong that servers are paid less per hour just because tips are common. This places an unfair burden on customers, and took tips from being part of a culture of discretionary generosity to being enshrined law. Since the tip is now required for the server to earn minimum wage, it is no longer a tip but a sort of marginally optional "fee."
IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer.
The entitlement culture in the service industry is so great that servers will angrily say things like "if you can't afford to tip on a bottle of wine, don't order it or stay home." Yikes. How about I just don't tip you.
IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer.
The entitlement culture in the service industry is so great that servers will angrily say things like "if you can't afford to tip on a bottle of wine, don't order it or stay home." Yikes. How about I just don't tip you.
Servers are entitled to tips, although ironically not necessarily on wine; while it's customary to simply roll wine into your tip, if you're buying expensive bottles it's acceptable to tip less for it.
Tips are part of the way the market for restaurant service is organized. The expectation that you're going to participate in the full market by tipping is universal and an implied part of the US social contract. If this offends you, that's fine: just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners, and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.
Tips are part of the way the market for restaurant service is organized. The expectation that you're going to participate in the full market by tipping is universal and an implied part of the US social contract. If this offends you, that's fine: just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners, and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.
> just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners
How does that work? By telepathy?
> and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.
It's _exactly_ the servers that need to unionise and get this archaic system outlawed.
How does that work? By telepathy?
> and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.
It's _exactly_ the servers that need to unionise and get this archaic system outlawed.
Unionization. That'll fix everything. Sounds great.
My suggestion: next time you eat out at a nicer-than-average restaurant, ask the server what they think of your idea. I make a point of talking to servers, not because I'm particularly nice (I'm not) but because it's an easy way to get much better service in the future, access to tables on crowded nights, &c. I think you're going to find that restaurant servers do not see tipping as a cosmic injustice that they should pay union dues to stamp out.
My suggestion: next time you eat out at a nicer-than-average restaurant, ask the server what they think of your idea. I make a point of talking to servers, not because I'm particularly nice (I'm not) but because it's an easy way to get much better service in the future, access to tables on crowded nights, &c. I think you're going to find that restaurant servers do not see tipping as a cosmic injustice that they should pay union dues to stamp out.
You're against people organising themselves democratically for a common cause?
> next time you eat out at a nicer-than-average restaurant, ask the server what they think of your idea
Waiters in my country make a living wage, no matter what the weather is. And they get tips, too.
Waiting in the US sounds like a great deal - go work for a start-up on commission, if the business thrives you'll still be an employee, if the business falters you'll miss your rent payment.
> next time you eat out at a nicer-than-average restaurant, ask the server what they think of your idea
Waiters in my country make a living wage, no matter what the weather is. And they get tips, too.
Waiting in the US sounds like a great deal - go work for a start-up on commission, if the business thrives you'll still be an employee, if the business falters you'll miss your rent payment.
The belief that unions have in the last 20 years been a very bad solution to most of the US labor problems they're applied to is not, if you apply your full brain capacity to the analysis, equivalent to the belief that unions should be outlawed.
I'm not sure what you think is supposed to happen when businesses falter. Are the taxpayers supposed to subsidize them?
I'm not sure what you think is supposed to happen when businesses falter. Are the taxpayers supposed to subsidize them?
The point is that the business owner is the one taking the risk of the business, as well as investing his money and making business decisions (including the decision to hire a server). Why should the servers take some of that risk when they are most far away from actual business decisions? why shouldn't, for example, the cook and the cleaning staff take the same risk as the servers?
As an employee, you certainly take a "risk" that your job will not last forever. You may be fired, downsized, or the company may go bankrupt.
Fortunately, since we live somewhere where you can fire, downsize, and go bankrupt, there are companies willing to hire you for some period of time between when they need you and when they don't need you anymore. Otherwise, who would hire anyone if they could never fire them (here's looking at you France)?
The possibility of losing a job is inherent and essential to the concept of employment.
Fortunately, since we live somewhere where you can fire, downsize, and go bankrupt, there are companies willing to hire you for some period of time between when they need you and when they don't need you anymore. Otherwise, who would hire anyone if they could never fire them (here's looking at you France)?
The possibility of losing a job is inherent and essential to the concept of employment.
Now that's just absurd, feeling entitled to receive extra cash for doing your job is ass-backwards. Taking an order, turning in the order, bringing out the order and then delivering the check is part of the job, any service that exceeds that deserves a tip. But feeling entitled to a tip for basically only doing what you're paid to do, is simply stupid.
I personally have no problem leaving a 5-10% tip of the sub-total at a restaurant for basic service, but feeling entitled to it is, I repeat, stupid.
I personally have no problem leaving a 5-10% tip of the sub-total at a restaurant for basic service, but feeling entitled to it is, I repeat, stupid.
What part of "it's not extra cash" is so hard for people to understand? It's not extra. The labor market for restaurant servers in the US is organized around the idea of tipping.
Think of tipping instead as a commission, except instead of the provider paying it, the customer pays. When a car salesman moves a car, we don't think of his commission as an "extra". Base pay for car salespeople is commensurately reduced on account of commissions.
Think of tipping instead as a commission, except instead of the provider paying it, the customer pays. When a car salesman moves a car, we don't think of his commission as an "extra". Base pay for car salespeople is commensurately reduced on account of commissions.
Just because it's organized around the idea of tipping, does not justify the notion that it's not extra cash coming out of the customer's pocket. I'm not against tipping, I just find it idiotic that people have this notion that just because it's part of tradition and part of the system that it's not considered "extra cash". Tipping is extra cash that the customer is footing, so that the employer doesn't have to pay extra for the labor behind the service. Once again, not against tipping.
And when it comes to commissions, the employer adds it on top of your wage, keyword: employer.
And when it comes to commissions, the employer adds it on top of your wage, keyword: employer.
It's "extra cash coming out of the customers pocket" in the same sense as the wine markup is "extra cash coming out of the customers pocket", or the corkage fee is "extra cash coming out of the customers pocket". You don't get to not pay the wine markup or the corkage fee.
But, ironically, solely because you do have the option of not paying the tip, the expectation of tipping is a terrible injustice to consumers.
Baffling.
But, ironically, solely because you do have the option of not paying the tip, the expectation of tipping is a terrible injustice to consumers.
Baffling.
You're totally misconstruing my words. I am not against tipping or feel that it's an injustice that servers expect a tip, hell, I've done almost every grimy job in the restaurant business; but what I'm saying is that a server feeling entitled to that tip is bullshit. It instills this notion of "pay me extra for doing my job", not "pay me extra for doing more than I had to at my job". It has nothing to do with consumers feeling an injustice because their servers expect a tip, it seriously has nothing to do with consumers. It has everything to do with a server's mentality that doing your job is enough to warrant a tip.
(I'll choose to ignore the condescension)
(I'll choose to ignore the condescension)
When the market arranges itself to pay servers 10-15% less than what the prevailing rate would be without tipping, the market is saying that servers are entitled to tips just for doing their job.
It is indeed true that servers expect a 15% tip simply in exchange for competently performing their job. So do their employers, and so do the majority of restaurant patrons.
I'm very unlikely to ever end up eating in a restaurant with you. I mostly do not care whether you tip or not. But the parallels between this thread and threads about software pricing are spooky: it's as if the part of the brain that enables most people to understand pointers-to-pointers and function pointers somehow cancels out some of the part of the brain that enables people to intuit how markets work.
Suffice it to say I am geeking out over this issue, not moralizing about it. Although: there's a moral component, and as a message board nerd, I'll pitch a little fit if we pretend that there isn't one. :)
It is indeed true that servers expect a 15% tip simply in exchange for competently performing their job. So do their employers, and so do the majority of restaurant patrons.
I'm very unlikely to ever end up eating in a restaurant with you. I mostly do not care whether you tip or not. But the parallels between this thread and threads about software pricing are spooky: it's as if the part of the brain that enables most people to understand pointers-to-pointers and function pointers somehow cancels out some of the part of the brain that enables people to intuit how markets work.
Suffice it to say I am geeking out over this issue, not moralizing about it. Although: there's a moral component, and as a message board nerd, I'll pitch a little fit if we pretend that there isn't one. :)
And the injustice is in the system itself. An employer that decides to pay 10-15% less because that's how the market has arranged it to be is bullshit.
I'm not saying I don't understand how the market works, I just like to call bullshit when I see it. The market shouldn't be structured in the way that employers can excuse themselves for paying a less than a competitive wage, just because it's an accepted system.
In contrary to my opinions on "expecting/feeling entitled to a tip", I always pay 20%, just because I feel like it.
And I definitely agree, there's a large moral component to it.
I'm not saying I don't understand how the market works, I just like to call bullshit when I see it. The market shouldn't be structured in the way that employers can excuse themselves for paying a less than a competitive wage, just because it's an accepted system.
In contrary to my opinions on "expecting/feeling entitled to a tip", I always pay 20%, just because I feel like it.
And I definitely agree, there's a large moral component to it.
I disagree that it's bullshit. In practice, servers (except when serving European tourists) tend to profit from the tipping arrangement. The mere fact that some of the responsibility for paying has been shifted to the customer isn't intrinsically unjust. And, it has benefits to small-business restaurant owners.
I (1) totally agree that reasonable people can disagree about whether restaurant tipping is an economically optimal scheme for compensating front of the house labor. I (2) have a little more trouble conceding that there's "bullshit" involved. I (3) have a lot of problems with the idea that it's reasonable to opt out of the tipping system by simply not tipping (not that you've suggested that, but others here have).
I (1) totally agree that reasonable people can disagree about whether restaurant tipping is an economically optimal scheme for compensating front of the house labor. I (2) have a little more trouble conceding that there's "bullshit" involved. I (3) have a lot of problems with the idea that it's reasonable to opt out of the tipping system by simply not tipping (not that you've suggested that, but others here have).
Ideally, tipping shouldn't be expected to compensate for a lower wage and rather should be given based on merit. But in regards to your mention of the market and how it controls the paradigm between wages and tips, I personally agree that people should be compensated in tips for their lower wage.
I completely support the tipping system and don't find any bullshit involved with it. My opinion is that it's bullshit that the market is structured this way to begin with, that eventually nurtured the notion that a tip is entitled. But that's just personal bias based on idealism.
I completely support the tipping system and don't find any bullshit involved with it. My opinion is that it's bullshit that the market is structured this way to begin with, that eventually nurtured the notion that a tip is entitled. But that's just personal bias based on idealism.
The idea isn't "Pay me extra for doing my job" — it's "Pay me a standard tip if I do my job competently, pay me extra if I go above and beyond, or underpay me if I really suck." Think of it as part of the meal's price being contingent on acceptable service, because that's really more what it's like. Viewing it as "extra" is just intentionally working yourself up by categorizing things weirdly.
Tips can't both be discretionary and an entitlement. That's a contradiction, and I think where the discomfort arises.
Either they are an entitlement - in which case they should be disclosed and added as a fee, or they are discretionary, in which case the servers wages should not be reduced because of the expectation.
Either they are an entitlement - in which case they should be disclosed and added as a fee, or they are discretionary, in which case the servers wages should not be reduced because of the expectation.
> IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer.
But isn't that basically just forcing a 10% tip on everyone with no regard for actual services rendered? While the tipping practice may be flawed, there is at least some built in incentive for the server to aim for more tips. With a mandatory 10% fee, the server has no incentive to go beyond their duty and the customer has no opt out.
But isn't that basically just forcing a 10% tip on everyone with no regard for actual services rendered? While the tipping practice may be flawed, there is at least some built in incentive for the server to aim for more tips. With a mandatory 10% fee, the server has no incentive to go beyond their duty and the customer has no opt out.
Not really. The 10% is required and disclosed, so it is no difference than raising the prices. Tips on the other hand are an imposition since they are both expected and discretionary.
Sure, the 10% could be included in the price and wages raised, but it doesn't make much difference. It's the difference between a VAT tax and a sales tax - in the end the amount is the same - sales tax is just more apparent to the consumer.
Sure, the 10% could be included in the price and wages raised, but it doesn't make much difference. It's the difference between a VAT tax and a sales tax - in the end the amount is the same - sales tax is just more apparent to the consumer.
I don't understand your logic that "required & fixed" is better than "expected & discretionary" but if that is how you feel then I'm not going to argue with you. We'll just disagree.
I agree. In fact, why not go a little further and make everything cost 10% more. Then, the customer knows up front exactly what the meal will cost. However the restaurant wants to split the revenue of the final check is up to the restaurant.
This a thousand times, and while we're at it please include tax in the advertised price. Growing up in Germany and the US, I find the US system incredibly deceptive and annoying..
There are some laws about this in most states of the US. If a restaurant charges a "x% service fee", then you must pay that fee. Deal with it. If they claim "x% gratuity is included in the check", then you can ask not to pay it.
I frequented a restaurant that did the latter. The problem was that they did a bad job of advertising the fact & would sometimes go as far as to not give an itemized check. I personally felt like I was being duped. This led to customers tipping on top on a tip & when customers found out, there was a lot of rage on Yelp et al. They repealed the auto gratuity.
Point is, if you are going to do this be loud and clear about it.
I frequented a restaurant that did the latter. The problem was that they did a bad job of advertising the fact & would sometimes go as far as to not give an itemized check. I personally felt like I was being duped. This led to customers tipping on top on a tip & when customers found out, there was a lot of rage on Yelp et al. They repealed the auto gratuity.
Point is, if you are going to do this be loud and clear about it.
The norm in US is average 15% which could be considered high in other countries. I have lived in 3 countries including US. The only sense I could make out of it is the fact that labor is considered premium in the US (not talking about cost here since that is debatable in 2012).
I personally do not mind tipping well (read 20-25%) but I find it disturbing that a waiter gives me attitude, shitty service, forgets to bring straw for the drink and then expects a tip since it is the norm. My wife and I have a joke. Every time a waiter screws up, we deduct 1% from the norm. Every time a waiter does something extra (like being nice, on time, no order screw-ups), we add 1% to the norm.
> The norm in US is average 15% which could be considered high in other countries
Infinitely so, as most countries either include staff remuneration in the bill or automatically add a service charge to the bill.
Tips generally aren't expected in any western european country that I know, for instance. Exceptional service is sometimes rewarded, but beyond that there is no tipping apart from people leaving the change "on the table" (because they can't be arsed)
Infinitely so, as most countries either include staff remuneration in the bill or automatically add a service charge to the bill.
Tips generally aren't expected in any western european country that I know, for instance. Exceptional service is sometimes rewarded, but beyond that there is no tipping apart from people leaving the change "on the table" (because they can't be arsed)
When I was in the US, the norm was 10%. Anyone has a clue why the tip is raising faster than inflation?
That's an interesting system. Do you think that having a 15% base is normal/right?
That's typical in most parts, but New York is moving towards 20% being the norm.
Maybe it'll be 25% for crappy service, 50% for decent treatment in the future if it keeps escalating.
Maybe it'll be 25% for crappy service, 50% for decent treatment in the future if it keeps escalating.
Depends. If the service is good, I am fine with 15% base. But I am not fine if I get bad service.
Will you still tip if the service was bad/not adequate?
Personally, I don't get tipping either. Aren't they supposed to do their job well in the first place? This probably leads to only having them treat you badly next time if you don't tip them well or at all the first time.
Personally, I don't get tipping either. Aren't they supposed to do their job well in the first place? This probably leads to only having them treat you badly next time if you don't tip them well or at all the first time.
In the US, a waiter or waitress typically gets paid $2.15/ hour, so hopefully you will take that into consideration.
I'm not totally sure this is true since I made more per hour as a bus boy when I was in high school.
Either way, you shouldn't take this into consideration. If a server decides to (or is desperate enough to) take such a raw deal, that's on them.
Their time can certainly be spent better than hoping customers can subsidize their salary. They'd probably do just as well begging on the corner (begging for tips is still begging just the same).
Take into consideration how well the person is serving you.
Either way, you shouldn't take this into consideration. If a server decides to (or is desperate enough to) take such a raw deal, that's on them.
Their time can certainly be spent better than hoping customers can subsidize their salary. They'd probably do just as well begging on the corner (begging for tips is still begging just the same).
Take into consideration how well the person is serving you.
> I'm not totally sure this is true
Depends on the state you're in, $2.15 is the federal minimum for tipped staff (and the employer is supposed to match standard (non-tipped) federal minimum wage if tips don't bring staff over) but many states have their own labor laws going beyond federal standards. For instance NH has a $3.27 tipped minimum wage (and a federal minimum wage), Washington State has a single minimum wage (no tipped staff exception) of $9.04.
Depends on the state you're in, $2.15 is the federal minimum for tipped staff (and the employer is supposed to match standard (non-tipped) federal minimum wage if tips don't bring staff over) but many states have their own labor laws going beyond federal standards. For instance NH has a $3.27 tipped minimum wage (and a federal minimum wage), Washington State has a single minimum wage (no tipped staff exception) of $9.04.
take it to reddit
I rarely tip. But when I do, I do it with just the tip
Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people) allow a much more immediate feedback loop for poor service than the traditional "If you suck, you'll get fired in a month or two" system.
The reason there's a standard tip amount is because that gives people something to deduct from for particularly bad service. If the default were no tip, customers would have to fall back on the traditional feedback mechanisms (that are both slow and considerably more effort) like complaining the the manager.
Personally, I'd say the biggest argument against tipping is that it tends to reflect many things that are largely outside the server's control: food quality, food preparation time, atmosphere, general dining experience.