The ancient Germanic history of Groundhog Day(bbc.com)
bbc.com
The ancient Germanic history of Groundhog Day
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240131-how-the-pennsylvania-dutch-created-groundhog-day
5 comments
and Feb 2 is because of Candlemas, and has some associated winter-prognostication lore:
The one I've heard is
If Candlemas Day be fair and bright,
Winter will take another flight;
If Candlemas Day be foul and rain,
Winter is gone and won't come againAs a native swiss german speaker it was relatively easy to understand the poem in the article. Definitely easier to understand for me than modern Dutch. Also the word "gluschdich" that was mentioned at the beginning of the article seems highly swiss to me.
Could anyone with more linguistic knowledge than me shed some light on whether Pennsylvania Dutch is really closely related to Dutch or if it's more closely related to German / Swiss German as I suspect?
Could anyone with more linguistic knowledge than me shed some light on whether Pennsylvania Dutch is really closely related to Dutch or if it's more closely related to German / Swiss German as I suspect?
No need for linguistic knowledge, I once had the chance to read some Pennsylvania Dutch texts stored in a library at a university in Central PA, and it was all Swiss German. "Dutch" is just the Americanization of "Deutsch," which is why they often call them the "Pennsylvania Deutsch" instead.
It's regularly spelled "daitsch" by the speakers themselves.
It's not (directly) related to Dutch at all, the "Dutch" thing is just an English spelling of "Dietsch", same word as Deutsch.
The article also seems to mix Mennonite German speakers up with Pennsylvania Dutch speakers, which isn't correct AFAIK.
I think on the whole? Mennonite German ("Plautdietsch") is not the same as Amish (I can't be certain, we don't have Amish here in Canada)... and their language I believe is more closely related to Low Saxon than to Low Frankish (Dutch). So closer to Plattdeutsch in northern Germany. But I also think it has many High German words and pronounciations borrowed-in as well (along with English, and other languages).
The article also seems to mix Mennonite German speakers up with Pennsylvania Dutch speakers, which isn't correct AFAIK.
I think on the whole? Mennonite German ("Plautdietsch") is not the same as Amish (I can't be certain, we don't have Amish here in Canada)... and their language I believe is more closely related to Low Saxon than to Low Frankish (Dutch). So closer to Plattdeutsch in northern Germany. But I also think it has many High German words and pronounciations borrowed-in as well (along with English, and other languages).
The Pennsylvania Dutch's historic linage is mostly from southern Germany (like Baden-Wuertemberg-ish). Dutch is something of an English language misnomer in this context.
I grew up in Stuttgart (although I don't speak the dialect) and to me the poem read like someone from Frankfurt wrote it, so maybe a hair north of Baden Wuertemberg?
It's Pfälzisch, which is almost indistinguishable from Hessisch (Frankfurt) in writing. It sounds somewhat different, though.
The bulk of Pennsylvania Dutch (read: Deutsch) made their way from German-speaking Switzerland to the Palatinate before leaving for the Americas. So the dialect is a bit of a mixture. They were invited to the Palatinate (and nearby areas) to restore agriculture after the Thirty Years' War. (Source: I have a Pennsylvania Mennonite background.)
It is “Pfaelzisch”, South West German dialect. It’s not related to the Alemannic dialects such as Swiss German. They start geographically further South. See a map here:
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fo...
Parts of the Palatinate were settled by Allemanic speakers (for a time: many then moved to the Americas).
Yeah but pretty sure Amish dialects have drifted pretty far on their own, as well.
Hoi! It's german, but a more northern dialect (Palatinate): compare https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte with https://pdc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haaptblatt
(note that most L1 speakers of Pennsylvania Dutch have religious reasons not to use the internet, let alone wikis, so I have no idea who contributes to the latter)
If you have blue/yellow tractors in your neighbourhood, see https://pdc.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Holland_Machine_Company
The Amish who originally came from the Bern area eventually (over several generations) wound up in Pennsylvania because they refused military service and hence had to emigrate; I guess they didn't have Zivildienst back then.
PS. compare the Züri equivalent to the groundhog: https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/zuerich/detonation-im-video-nac...
(note that most L1 speakers of Pennsylvania Dutch have religious reasons not to use the internet, let alone wikis, so I have no idea who contributes to the latter)
If you have blue/yellow tractors in your neighbourhood, see https://pdc.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Holland_Machine_Company
The Amish who originally came from the Bern area eventually (over several generations) wound up in Pennsylvania because they refused military service and hence had to emigrate; I guess they didn't have Zivildienst back then.
PS. compare the Züri equivalent to the groundhog: https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/zuerich/detonation-im-video-nac...
> I have no idea who contributes to the latter
Probably the people mentioned last in the following extract from https://pdc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsilfaanisch_Deitsch — a few Lutherans and Reform and others who learned the language as children.
> Die Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch Schprooch ..., iss en Schprooch, ass gschwetzt watt bei verleicht 300,000 Leit ... S'menscht vun die Schwetzer sinn heit Amische un Fuhremennischte, wu Deitsch aa heit noch schwetze zu ihre Kinner, awwer's hot aa en latt Luthrische un Reformierte un Leit vun en Wisch annre Gmeeschafte, wu die Mudderschprooch noch gschwetzt henn, dieweil ass sie Kinner waare.
Probably the people mentioned last in the following extract from https://pdc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsilfaanisch_Deitsch — a few Lutherans and Reform and others who learned the language as children.
> Die Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch Schprooch ..., iss en Schprooch, ass gschwetzt watt bei verleicht 300,000 Leit ... S'menscht vun die Schwetzer sinn heit Amische un Fuhremennischte, wu Deitsch aa heit noch schwetze zu ihre Kinner, awwer's hot aa en latt Luthrische un Reformierte un Leit vun en Wisch annre Gmeeschafte, wu die Mudderschprooch noch gschwetzt henn, dieweil ass sie Kinner waare.
Grew up in SE PA, i've heard it called old german or high german but I don't know what that means. PA Dutch is just an americanization
What is old german / high german / low german?
High German is the language which was traditionally spoken in the southern 2/3 of Germany and in Austria; it evolved from the languages of the Allemani, Bavarians, and Franks. Low German is the language which was traditionally spoken in the northern 1/3 of Germany; it evolved from Saxon. For historical reasons (the big one being Martin Luther's choice of German dialect for translating the Bible), High German became the basis of the "standard" literary German language and is taught in schools, while Low German is seen as a weird dialect. Although if objective criteria were used, Low German and High German would be classified as different languages, not dialects.
I don't know, I just know "is it dutch or is it german?" is a common question and that's the answer. I think high/low is a geographic indicator of where it's spoken in germany.
Dialects.
AFAIK, the Dutch (Netherlands) and English languages are further dialects of low German. But I might be corrected.
the "gluschdich" got me, usually such words have some resemblance to a word from standard German but in this case it doesn't sound familiar to me but then again the Alemannic German isn't my strong suit. Can anybody shed some light on this?
In Swiss German I would spell it "glustig" or "gluschdig". I would "germanize" it as "gelustig". If you are "glustig uf öppis" it means you have "Lust darauf", often used in the context of food. "glust" on its own just means "Lust" as in "Gelüste". As explained in the article if you are "glustig" you are not necessarily hungry but you just crave some food. "Ich hab zwar schon gegessen aber irgendwie hab ich voll Lust auf nen Döner!"
I was completely convinced Groundhog Day was something that was made up for the film! Had no idea it was a real thing.
I thought Groundhog Day landed when it did because it is the 1st Cross-Quarter day of the year, just like May Day landing on the 2nd Cross-Quarter day, and Halloween on the 4th Cross-Quarter day (and apparently there used to be a grain harvest festival - Lammas Day - on the 3rd Cross-Quarter day).
An established order of quarter days is: annunciation, midsummer, michaelmas, and christmas.
and cross-quarter days are indeed candlemas, may day, lammas, and all hallows.
and cross-quarter days are indeed candlemas, may day, lammas, and all hallows.
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39248326