Ask HN: What can you do or learn to experience a better love life?
101 comments
“Should an emergency situation occur, you need to put your own oxygen mask on first, before attempting to help those around you.”
Rule applies here, work on yourself so that you're a better person to be with in a relationship. Work on physical health, good diet, mental wellbeing, work through any past traumas or bad experiences (perhaps with a mental health professional) so you're not carring baggage to future relationships, work on impulse control, emotional control and pretty much the most important one above all others, communication skills.
These things basically apply to all relationships, romantic, professional, friendships, family, etc and are generally good things to work on for your own happiness and wellbeing too.
Rule applies here, work on yourself so that you're a better person to be with in a relationship. Work on physical health, good diet, mental wellbeing, work through any past traumas or bad experiences (perhaps with a mental health professional) so you're not carring baggage to future relationships, work on impulse control, emotional control and pretty much the most important one above all others, communication skills.
These things basically apply to all relationships, romantic, professional, friendships, family, etc and are generally good things to work on for your own happiness and wellbeing too.
My young cousin was going through a breakup with her boyfriend recently and he was sending her all this stuff about how she needed to stay with him because he couldn't go on without her because he loves her so much and she's so perfect for him blah blah blah. He was basically loving himself by proxy. I told her, If my wife asked me for a divorce because our marriage was negatively impacting her life, of course I'd say no problem, if she was to be more happy and fulfilled in that reality, I'd do it in a heartbeat, I love her! It would hurt, and I would be hurt, but ultimately I'd be fine because I trust and love myself, and eventually, even more happy if it meant she was happy. I love her because of who she is, and she loves me because of who I am, we both love ourselves and share love together.
99% of relationships are not like this. At all.
That’s a pretty jaded response to something you clearly can’t quantify.
I’m hesitant to give relationship advice on the internet because every relationship is different but if I did “don’t love yourself by proxy” would seem pretty close to universal.
I’m hesitant to give relationship advice on the internet because every relationship is different but if I did “don’t love yourself by proxy” would seem pretty close to universal.
It's not jaded it's just realistic. I can't think of anything other than naivety that would make someone believe that either partner in a most relationships would be happy to get divorced because they would be happy for the other person. I can't quantify that most people don't do handstands after they get home from work.. but I also know it doesn't happen.
I am not talking about “don’t love yourself by proxy”.
I am not talking about “don’t love yourself by proxy”.
They didn't say they'd be happy to get divorced. They said the opposite thing, in fact. They said they'd be happier in the long run, which is true of most divorces, and all of the healthy ones.
Not only is this a overtly negative view of life itself, it's probably incorrect as well, but depending on what kind of people you interact with, you'll get a biased view of it as a whole. "99%" is wrong, that much I can tell you though, probably closer to 50% than 100%.
I'm biased the other way, most relationships me and my wife see in our friends are closer to the model parent described, but I realize we actively seek out friends who seem to have more healthy relations than people who don't.
I'm biased the other way, most relationships me and my wife see in our friends are closer to the model parent described, but I realize we actively seek out friends who seem to have more healthy relations than people who don't.
How is it a "overtly negative view of life itself"? That's a ridiculous statement.
Of course 99% is not completely accurate but it's in the correct direction which is good enough for the statement.
I am observing the world at a whole. You're observing your immediate self-selected friendships and relationships.
Of course 99% is not completely accurate but it's in the correct direction which is good enough for the statement.
I am observing the world at a whole. You're observing your immediate self-selected friendships and relationships.
> How is it a "overtly negative view of life itself"? That's a ridiculous statement.
Because you're saying most if not every relationship is like that. Obviously it's not.
> but it's in the correct direction
How can you possible know this? Unless I missed some reference to you actively doing research in the area, I'm not sure how you possibly can feel certain enough to even guess "it's in the correct direction".
Because you're saying most if not every relationship is like that. Obviously it's not.
> but it's in the correct direction
How can you possible know this? Unless I missed some reference to you actively doing research in the area, I'm not sure how you possibly can feel certain enough to even guess "it's in the correct direction".
By this standard, you can know nothing and discuss nothing without a PhD in the subject matter.
I'm very confident saying most people can't divorce their spouse in a heartbeat no matter the reason, it is entirely detached from anything I've ever observed about relationships, marriages and divorces, over everyone I've ever known in my entire life.
Most people I know couldn't even be sure whether they'd be happier outside of marriage, many people I've known have stayed together even though they were both miserable, many people I know have had a divorce, when either or both wanted it and were miserable throughout the proceedings. That's not even going into breakups in non-married couples which follow different dynamics but aren't generally easy either.
I'm very confident saying most people can't divorce their spouse in a heartbeat no matter the reason, it is entirely detached from anything I've ever observed about relationships, marriages and divorces, over everyone I've ever known in my entire life.
Most people I know couldn't even be sure whether they'd be happier outside of marriage, many people I've known have stayed together even though they were both miserable, many people I know have had a divorce, when either or both wanted it and were miserable throughout the proceedings. That's not even going into breakups in non-married couples which follow different dynamics but aren't generally easy either.
Not like the young cousin or not like neom?
FWIW, my spouse and I are similar to neom.
One trap that pushes people towards the young cousin end of the spectrum is getting caught up in loving the idea of the relationship more than actually loving the other person.
FWIW, my spouse and I are similar to neom.
One trap that pushes people towards the young cousin end of the spectrum is getting caught up in loving the idea of the relationship more than actually loving the other person.
How many of these relationships are you personally involved in such that you'd know that? Maybe 99% (and probably fewer) of relationships in your close personal circle are like that.
I'm done with this thread as it seems to have triggered some people. I'll just respond to you to clearly say: No. You are incorrect.
Tip: don't share opinions/wild guesses as facts if you're not prepared to answer people who want clarifications. Also, don't engage if you can't have a constructive conversation with others. Why even comment if you're not looking for interactions with others in order to further your own understanding?
Don't provide me with passive aggressive "tips". I don't think any of the replies[1] are seeking clarification. OP is not experienced in love or relationships. The comment[2] may apply to the person who posted it but it's not the reality for most relationships. I thought that was important for OP to know. Also, see the bike cuck meme.
[1] "That’s a pretty jaded response", "this a overtly negative view of life itself", "How many of these relationships are you personally involved in such that you'd know that?"
[2] "I told her, If my wife asked me for a divorce because our marriage was negatively impacting her life, of course I'd say no problem, if she was to be more happy and fulfilled in that reality, I'd do it in a heartbeat, I love her! It would hurt, and I would be hurt, but ultimately I'd be fine because I trust and love myself, and eventually, even more happy if it meant she was happy. I love her because of who she is, and she loves me because of who I am, we both love ourselves and share love together."
[1] "That’s a pretty jaded response", "this a overtly negative view of life itself", "How many of these relationships are you personally involved in such that you'd know that?"
[2] "I told her, If my wife asked me for a divorce because our marriage was negatively impacting her life, of course I'd say no problem, if she was to be more happy and fulfilled in that reality, I'd do it in a heartbeat, I love her! It would hurt, and I would be hurt, but ultimately I'd be fine because I trust and love myself, and eventually, even more happy if it meant she was happy. I love her because of who she is, and she loves me because of who I am, we both love ourselves and share love together."
I agree with your sentiment as well as with the parent comment. I think it’s mostly young relationships that aren’t like this, or rather relationships we have when we’re young. I would wager that 99% of people have had or will have at least one relationship like this in their lives before we learn healthier ways of being with another person.
Anecdotally, long term relationships where one party improves significantly often do not last so it’s good advice to improve yourself before you find the right person.
Anecdotally, long term relationships where one party improves significantly often do not last so it’s good advice to improve yourself before you find the right person.
Yeah that's not quite Bike Cuck territory, but it's awfully close.
Wow, I've never seen that before
Source: https://memedocumentation.tumblr.com/post/167786791350
Source: https://memedocumentation.tumblr.com/post/167786791350
Now there’s a term I’ve never heard before. I’m somewhat afraid to look it up, but here I go…
[deleted]
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. Relationships are about you and the other. Becoming a better person yourself is the best way to inspire others to do so as well (and as a plus, if the relationship goes to pieces you get out of it a better person).
One thing I'd like to add: do not think your relationship to your loved one is god given, something they owe you or something that you can take for granted. It really helps to remind yourself to view a relationship as what it realistically is: two (or more) people deciding to spend part of their life together for mutual benefit and growth, be it material, emotional or anything else.
If you do not take your relationships for granted you have to ask yourself more if this is what you want and if this is what your loved one should have to love with. Just because they said ues to sharing life with you once, does not mean there is nothing to be done in the long run.
One thing I'd like to add: do not think your relationship to your loved one is god given, something they owe you or something that you can take for granted. It really helps to remind yourself to view a relationship as what it realistically is: two (or more) people deciding to spend part of their life together for mutual benefit and growth, be it material, emotional or anything else.
If you do not take your relationships for granted you have to ask yourself more if this is what you want and if this is what your loved one should have to love with. Just because they said ues to sharing life with you once, does not mean there is nothing to be done in the long run.
Well said. I did something similar.
Being comfortable in your own skin makes you more confident, confidence is attractive. It will snowball from there.
Sometimes learning a skill can help to start yourself on a good path.
For me it was going through the training to get a pilots license. Holding the license in my hands made me proud of myself and it had a ripple effect that set me on a path of self improvement. Got married few weeks ago.
Being comfortable in your own skin makes you more confident, confidence is attractive. It will snowball from there.
Sometimes learning a skill can help to start yourself on a good path.
For me it was going through the training to get a pilots license. Holding the license in my hands made me proud of myself and it had a ripple effect that set me on a path of self improvement. Got married few weeks ago.
I've been in a stable and long lasting relationship for nearly 20 years. I could say plenty of things about my relationship but they'd be very anecdotal. But I have observed one thing in successful and unsuccessful relationships among our friends: Successful couples talk to one another, unsuccessful ones don't or have stopped.
Every day we have a chat like two friends. Changes from day to day, humorous or serious, world events or household events or gossip.
I wasn't super aware that not all couples do this, but as others around us have had problems and split/divorced they've opened up and said they've never really talked much, or they used to but haven't for some time.
It makes sense to me. Little problems turn into big ones because you never talked about them, your partner didn't know how you felt, and it escalates into unhappiness. Or (and I'm surprised by this, but it's been a theme in recent divorces) you never actually talked much with your partner and didn't know that they were a complete twat.
Every day we have a chat like two friends. Changes from day to day, humorous or serious, world events or household events or gossip.
I wasn't super aware that not all couples do this, but as others around us have had problems and split/divorced they've opened up and said they've never really talked much, or they used to but haven't for some time.
It makes sense to me. Little problems turn into big ones because you never talked about them, your partner didn't know how you felt, and it escalates into unhappiness. Or (and I'm surprised by this, but it's been a theme in recent divorces) you never actually talked much with your partner and didn't know that they were a complete twat.
Paying attention. Listening.
If you want shrewd methods, and hacks, it boils down to this too. Be interested, not interesting. Debate, but in a way that you want to know more and not to impress.
The next level is love. My favorite definition of love is unequivocal and unconditional commitment to the welfare of another. There's three difficult words there: unequivocal, unconditional, and commitment. Most people can't do that.
A lot of it is about yourself too. Handle your traumas. Unconditional commitment is the most abused thing in the world. But until you can get there, you can't really love. That's why many keep pets, because pets can't exploit that love.
If you want shrewd methods, and hacks, it boils down to this too. Be interested, not interesting. Debate, but in a way that you want to know more and not to impress.
The next level is love. My favorite definition of love is unequivocal and unconditional commitment to the welfare of another. There's three difficult words there: unequivocal, unconditional, and commitment. Most people can't do that.
A lot of it is about yourself too. Handle your traumas. Unconditional commitment is the most abused thing in the world. But until you can get there, you can't really love. That's why many keep pets, because pets can't exploit that love.
> Most people can't do that.
Almost no one can do that, or should do that. Your mother loves you, sometimes your father. If you are a good parent your kids will love you. But don't be silly, your romantic partner rarely loves you the same way. If you are a constant burden to your romantic partner, they should move on. They will move on. And so should you if you find yourself in the same position.
Advice for OP. Don't demand that people fall in love with you. And by the definitions of the post above me, be careful to falling in love. You don't want to live for someone else, live for yourself. Don't demand others to live for you. Make yourself happy and make others happy.
Almost no one can do that, or should do that. Your mother loves you, sometimes your father. If you are a good parent your kids will love you. But don't be silly, your romantic partner rarely loves you the same way. If you are a constant burden to your romantic partner, they should move on. They will move on. And so should you if you find yourself in the same position.
Advice for OP. Don't demand that people fall in love with you. And by the definitions of the post above me, be careful to falling in love. You don't want to live for someone else, live for yourself. Don't demand others to live for you. Make yourself happy and make others happy.
"Falling in love" is a feeling, much more akin to infatuation.
However, love is willing the good of the other as other and doing something to effect that. That's why traditional wedding vows aren't about "I will always feel this way about you" and instead "regardless of what life throws at us or my feelings, I will commit everything to this relationship". And it's done in front of something greater than either of you (e.g. God) and in front of your community.
When both parties do this, you end with a very healthy base for a marriage. If the base for your marriage is commitment to positive feelings, then it will fall apart.
However, love is willing the good of the other as other and doing something to effect that. That's why traditional wedding vows aren't about "I will always feel this way about you" and instead "regardless of what life throws at us or my feelings, I will commit everything to this relationship". And it's done in front of something greater than either of you (e.g. God) and in front of your community.
When both parties do this, you end with a very healthy base for a marriage. If the base for your marriage is commitment to positive feelings, then it will fall apart.
Curiosity is the first step, so you’re doing great.
“Say what you mean” by Oren Jay Sofer changed my life. Learning to actually, well, say what I was trying to say, to be facetious.
It was mind blowing to realise I was actually sending out completely contradictory messages.
NVC by Marshall Rosenberg is also good, but Sofer covers it.
I had, along with most I would say, unconsciously learnt a kind of domination language from the world around me growing up. Always trying to be right, using the aesthetic of logic and creating sides.
Learning to lead with curiosity, to actually listen to the other person was saying and think about it before responding to what they were saying instead of the concurrent Monolog of what I though they were saying was wiiiiiild.
I gained close friends in a way I always craved, I grew and and still growing closer to my partner. I calmed down a LOT, arguing less after realising I neither needed to win nor disagree.
I’m a fanboy, it’s life changing stuff.
Another parallel track was learning to be a more interesting person. I had sort of relaxed into dyadic life, looking to my partner for entertainment, sort of blaming them when I was unhappy or bored. Finding stuff to do on my own helped majorly. Hobbies and clubs, finding things I enjoyed others respected outside of work. Building light installations for music festivals in my case.
“Say what you mean” by Oren Jay Sofer changed my life. Learning to actually, well, say what I was trying to say, to be facetious.
It was mind blowing to realise I was actually sending out completely contradictory messages.
NVC by Marshall Rosenberg is also good, but Sofer covers it.
I had, along with most I would say, unconsciously learnt a kind of domination language from the world around me growing up. Always trying to be right, using the aesthetic of logic and creating sides.
Learning to lead with curiosity, to actually listen to the other person was saying and think about it before responding to what they were saying instead of the concurrent Monolog of what I though they were saying was wiiiiiild.
I gained close friends in a way I always craved, I grew and and still growing closer to my partner. I calmed down a LOT, arguing less after realising I neither needed to win nor disagree.
I’m a fanboy, it’s life changing stuff.
Another parallel track was learning to be a more interesting person. I had sort of relaxed into dyadic life, looking to my partner for entertainment, sort of blaming them when I was unhappy or bored. Finding stuff to do on my own helped majorly. Hobbies and clubs, finding things I enjoyed others respected outside of work. Building light installations for music festivals in my case.
The market dynamics for men and women are very different so my advice is different depending on what category you are in.
For women generally they have opportunities they aren't aware of or don't consider for one reason or another, for them I suggest they take the best one available and try to make it work for a while, often they find those deal breakers they had don't really matter. Also dont pretend to be into things because you think men like them, we know and it's feels like that overly enthusatistic girlfriend meme, having a legitimate interest is great though just don't be a poser. Lastly avoid older men, they probably aren't serious, see the men's advice for more details.
For men I first ask how old they are and if they say "early twenties" I clue them in on the fact that it feels like every man is trying to date a woman in her early twenties. You are competing with men who have established lives, assets, etc and that's a difficult place to be, but around 28 something magic happens. Women start to want to settle down and have children generally around 28, and the men in their 30's and 40's who figured out how to date 20 year olds don't want to settle down with a woman pushing 30 so they aren't going to get too serious. This is where you come in, if you work on your life and are in a good position to provide for children in your late twenties you'll suddenly become prince charming to these women. Many of my friends and I suddenly found ourselves with attractive women, who were actively pursuing us around this time even though we were mostly striking out in the decade prior. In short, don't lose hope it won't always be this hard. If you are a man older than that, I can't really help you since that is where I stopped playing the game.
For women generally they have opportunities they aren't aware of or don't consider for one reason or another, for them I suggest they take the best one available and try to make it work for a while, often they find those deal breakers they had don't really matter. Also dont pretend to be into things because you think men like them, we know and it's feels like that overly enthusatistic girlfriend meme, having a legitimate interest is great though just don't be a poser. Lastly avoid older men, they probably aren't serious, see the men's advice for more details.
For men I first ask how old they are and if they say "early twenties" I clue them in on the fact that it feels like every man is trying to date a woman in her early twenties. You are competing with men who have established lives, assets, etc and that's a difficult place to be, but around 28 something magic happens. Women start to want to settle down and have children generally around 28, and the men in their 30's and 40's who figured out how to date 20 year olds don't want to settle down with a woman pushing 30 so they aren't going to get too serious. This is where you come in, if you work on your life and are in a good position to provide for children in your late twenties you'll suddenly become prince charming to these women. Many of my friends and I suddenly found ourselves with attractive women, who were actively pursuing us around this time even though we were mostly striking out in the decade prior. In short, don't lose hope it won't always be this hard. If you are a man older than that, I can't really help you since that is where I stopped playing the game.
For men I first ask how old they are and if they say "early twenties" I clue them in on the fact that it feels like every man is trying to date a woman in her early twenties. You are competing with men who have established lives, assets, etc and that's a difficult place to be
I think that there may be a big cultural and economic factors to this. This was definitely not the case when I was in my early twenties (West Europe). Early twenties people dated early twenties people. Girls definitely weren't interested in 'assets'.
The primary upward age dating I saw was around 14-16, because girls are generally mentally mature earlier than boys.
I think that there may be a big cultural and economic factors to this. This was definitely not the case when I was in my early twenties (West Europe). Early twenties people dated early twenties people. Girls definitely weren't interested in 'assets'.
The primary upward age dating I saw was around 14-16, because girls are generally mentally mature earlier than boys.
That's possible, I'm in the US and you are in for a rough ride if you choose a man who can't earn to start a family with here. Even things like parental leave are only really available over a certain income.
Interesting. Pretty much everyone can earn enough for a family here and everyone is entitled to parental leave. Besides that, we don’t consider it to be only men’s responsibility to earn, women can, do, and want to work as well.
So, money is not really a consideration in dating.
So, money is not really a consideration in dating.
That makes sense. Here men have kept a lot of the traditional responsibilities they have had historically, it's just become a unspoken thing rather than something you say out loud. A relatively lengthy (but not all that uncommon in Europe, say 1 year) period of unemployment on the part of the man often leads to divorce, men feel a lot of pressure not only to provide but to provide what their wives see on Instagram and the like.
Come to think of it, I personally avoided a lot of this myself by not marrying a American. Not intentionally of course but that probably explains why I'm not as pressured as my peers.
Come to think of it, I personally avoided a lot of this myself by not marrying a American. Not intentionally of course but that probably explains why I'm not as pressured as my peers.
I've been to some places in Asia with the same dating dynamics. But make no mistake, when women are in their late twenties, they will not settle for for a man without assets. The closer they get to thirties the harder they seek for security and a stable long term proposal.
Why do people view relationships and dating as some kind of optimization game where the only goal is to maximize some reward function, and assume that everyone does the same and also that every woman wants a rich guy?
Reading texts like this doesn't just creep me the hell out, I'm also just... confused. Are love, connection, an ability to be a functional family (with or without children) not a thing anyone thinks about in optimization game world? What's the good in having a "useful" partner who you'll just end up not enjoying life together with?
Maybe that's just me being young and inexperienced (tm), but how about finding someone who you are on a wavelength with?
Reading texts like this doesn't just creep me the hell out, I'm also just... confused. Are love, connection, an ability to be a functional family (with or without children) not a thing anyone thinks about in optimization game world? What's the good in having a "useful" partner who you'll just end up not enjoying life together with?
Maybe that's just me being young and inexperienced (tm), but how about finding someone who you are on a wavelength with?
Able to provide doesn't mean rich. Women have a lot of choice and a husband that shares your love for volleyball probably isn't worth living paycheck to paycheck for the rest life vs a husband who hates volleyball but isn't chronically unemployed. Most of the surface level first date things young people think are important (hobbies, music even politics) aren't really at all in the scheme of things, your tastes will change and converge over time.
You cannot make anyone fall in love with you. That belief that you can, and the hubris that goes with it, leads to twisty and dark places.
Instead,
1. Be the best, and authentic person you can be. Authenticity is not found by looking outside, but rather, connecting deeper within your consciousness. Various forms of meditation allows one to explore this space. This means working through layers of conditioning, expectations, and hangups related to this: beliefs and attitudes about love, beliefs and attitudes about success, what you truly value (rather than what you are conditioned to value), hangups around seeking approval, intimacy, etc. Therapy can be a good way to get help exploring this if you don’t know anyone you can connect with for wisdom.
2. Care for and contribute towards something greater than you. This connects what you discover about yourself in (1) to the world outside of you. When this clicks, it gives a sense of purpose to your life.
3. Give others a chance to know who you are, from (1). This is a relaxing on the psychological armoring surrounding (1). Approach dating as such, as a way two people are discovering each other, rather than aiming for a particular outcome or meeting certain metrics.
Falling in love can be a profound experience. However, I can tell you that being in relation, and relationships involves a lot more than falling in love. Any long-term relationship and life partnership is far more difficult than dating, and the expectations people create around notions of “falling in love” puts unreasonable demands on each other.
The advice I hear from couples who have been married for decades, particularly those from traditional Indian marriages (which are arranged by the parents), is “tolerance”. And it’s going to the little, stupid stuff you tolerate. Sense of humor helps a lot here.
Instead,
1. Be the best, and authentic person you can be. Authenticity is not found by looking outside, but rather, connecting deeper within your consciousness. Various forms of meditation allows one to explore this space. This means working through layers of conditioning, expectations, and hangups related to this: beliefs and attitudes about love, beliefs and attitudes about success, what you truly value (rather than what you are conditioned to value), hangups around seeking approval, intimacy, etc. Therapy can be a good way to get help exploring this if you don’t know anyone you can connect with for wisdom.
2. Care for and contribute towards something greater than you. This connects what you discover about yourself in (1) to the world outside of you. When this clicks, it gives a sense of purpose to your life.
3. Give others a chance to know who you are, from (1). This is a relaxing on the psychological armoring surrounding (1). Approach dating as such, as a way two people are discovering each other, rather than aiming for a particular outcome or meeting certain metrics.
Falling in love can be a profound experience. However, I can tell you that being in relation, and relationships involves a lot more than falling in love. Any long-term relationship and life partnership is far more difficult than dating, and the expectations people create around notions of “falling in love” puts unreasonable demands on each other.
The advice I hear from couples who have been married for decades, particularly those from traditional Indian marriages (which are arranged by the parents), is “tolerance”. And it’s going to the little, stupid stuff you tolerate. Sense of humor helps a lot here.
Indian marriages are a sham in my opinion. I would like to respectfully disagree with you. Most Indian marriages do survive because of tolerance but the tolerance arises from the societal pressure and stigma that surrounds separation. I am getting close to a marital age and have been observing Indian couples. I see a pattern where many couples are not happy but are still together because they can tolerate each other. I don't like that. Not everyone is like that but many are and they are okay with it
> Be the best, and authentic person you can be.
Hold on. This can be terrible advice. Suppose the "authentic" you is an asshole, or suppose the "authentic" you refuses to do "standard dating maneuvers" like flirting, that are part of the common language that society expects you to participate in to even get a chance. Then you should abandon authenticity and change those things about yourself, you should put some effort into learning about what is "generally expected".
Hold on. This can be terrible advice. Suppose the "authentic" you is an asshole, or suppose the "authentic" you refuses to do "standard dating maneuvers" like flirting, that are part of the common language that society expects you to participate in to even get a chance. Then you should abandon authenticity and change those things about yourself, you should put some effort into learning about what is "generally expected".
I think in this context authentic means more of, “don’t do a set of actions to get a specific outcome”, outside of finding a mate.
Example, younger me would go on dates, and try to be the person the other person wanted (without realizing this until later in life).
This kind of inauthentic actions is ultimately untruthful and will cause more problems down the line.
Example, younger me would go on dates, and try to be the person the other person wanted (without realizing this until later in life).
This kind of inauthentic actions is ultimately untruthful and will cause more problems down the line.
No, this interpretation of authentic is exactly what I'm shooting at, you should definitely do things to get a specific outcome. If you don't start doing those things and integrate it into your personality, you'll never actually make it part of your personality. Sure it will be inauthentic at first, but you HAVE to go through that stage or else you'll never get there. Bonus points if you understand why those societal guidelines exist and accept that they're not totally bullshit.
The flip side is you don't accept the guidelines that society suggests and you spend your days lonely (waiting for the chance encounter with the person who somehow isn't wired to social expectations) when you could have been working on those muscles, most of which if practiced through your relationship will likely make your relationship better off.
What you shouldn't do is compromise your integrity. Like doing shitty things just because other people say you should.
But there is a distinction between integrity and authenticity that is important. The former is critical, the latter is something that is generally overrated.
> Example, younger me would go on dates, and try to be the person the other person wanted (without realizing this until later in life)... This kind of inauthentic actions
But that's the thing. Being a "people pleaser" was the authentic younger you. Possibly coming out of a place of desperation. Thank goodness you figured your shit out and changed your personality to something that was inauthentic, at least in the beginning
The flip side is you don't accept the guidelines that society suggests and you spend your days lonely (waiting for the chance encounter with the person who somehow isn't wired to social expectations) when you could have been working on those muscles, most of which if practiced through your relationship will likely make your relationship better off.
What you shouldn't do is compromise your integrity. Like doing shitty things just because other people say you should.
But there is a distinction between integrity and authenticity that is important. The former is critical, the latter is something that is generally overrated.
> Example, younger me would go on dates, and try to be the person the other person wanted (without realizing this until later in life)... This kind of inauthentic actions
But that's the thing. Being a "people pleaser" was the authentic younger you. Possibly coming out of a place of desperation. Thank goodness you figured your shit out and changed your personality to something that was inauthentic, at least in the beginning
You can gain skills like archery this way.
However, that kind of attitude and frame will not work well for a healthy relationship. People’s feelings are not outcomes you can manage your way towards.
You are, of course, free to do as you like. I’m just sharing some hard-earned experience.
However, that kind of attitude and frame will not work well for a healthy relationship. People’s feelings are not outcomes you can manage your way towards.
You are, of course, free to do as you like. I’m just sharing some hard-earned experience.
You're not reading what I'm writing. You cannot improve yourself without at some point stepping through an inauthentic phase where you are forcing yourself to try shit that you have no idea what you are doing.
"staying authentic" a priori prevents you from learning healthy relationship dynamics. You will never get there in the first place.
"staying authentic" a priori prevents you from learning healthy relationship dynamics. You will never get there in the first place.
I’m glad you learned not to try to be what you think the other person wants.
What I meant by authenticity goes more than that. It’s gaining an intuitive knowing of who you really are, past the layers of beliefs and conditionings. It’s more that just who you think the person you are dating expects. It is also your parent’s expectations, or even your religious and cultural expectations. It goes past even what you _think_ you should be.
That’s why I said, meditation helps with this process, and so does therapy.
So more than actions, it is also beliefs, values, and attitudes.
What I meant by authenticity goes more than that. It’s gaining an intuitive knowing of who you really are, past the layers of beliefs and conditionings. It’s more that just who you think the person you are dating expects. It is also your parent’s expectations, or even your religious and cultural expectations. It goes past even what you _think_ you should be.
That’s why I said, meditation helps with this process, and so does therapy.
So more than actions, it is also beliefs, values, and attitudes.
Hmm. To address this:
Assholes are those who do not have the well-being of others at heart. They are generally wrapped up un psychological armoring, wanting to make an impact while also don’t want to be touched. As such, they have terrible problems with intimacy.
Note that my other two advice addresses those. Being able to care for and contribute to something greater than yourself can’t really be done while being an asshole. Although I wrote a couple sentences about this, this is actually a deep topic to explore.
As far as changing yourself, you’d make effort at changing that because you deeply want that change, not because society expects you to. If someone tried to fake it, it will come up during moments of intimacy, or when the relationship is stressed. It takes tremendous courage to experience the vulnerability that is revealed with intimacy; and social expectation as a motivation by itself is not a deep enough well.
As far as things like flirting goes because it is socially expected … if someone does it like that, at best, it is awkward —- because your actions are not connected to how you really feel —-, often with the other person being put off by it. (Unless they really like you, and they find your awkwardness cute or endearing). Or, it is shallow (social expectation is not a sufficiently deep well to draw from), or manipulative (focusing too much on the outcome, at which point, the other person is not a potential partner or lover, but a piece of meat which should do things if you followed socially expected behavior).
The short answer: you’d end up self-sabotaging, even if you get lucky and get some short term results.
Assholes are those who do not have the well-being of others at heart. They are generally wrapped up un psychological armoring, wanting to make an impact while also don’t want to be touched. As such, they have terrible problems with intimacy.
Note that my other two advice addresses those. Being able to care for and contribute to something greater than yourself can’t really be done while being an asshole. Although I wrote a couple sentences about this, this is actually a deep topic to explore.
As far as changing yourself, you’d make effort at changing that because you deeply want that change, not because society expects you to. If someone tried to fake it, it will come up during moments of intimacy, or when the relationship is stressed. It takes tremendous courage to experience the vulnerability that is revealed with intimacy; and social expectation as a motivation by itself is not a deep enough well.
As far as things like flirting goes because it is socially expected … if someone does it like that, at best, it is awkward —- because your actions are not connected to how you really feel —-, often with the other person being put off by it. (Unless they really like you, and they find your awkwardness cute or endearing). Or, it is shallow (social expectation is not a sufficiently deep well to draw from), or manipulative (focusing too much on the outcome, at which point, the other person is not a potential partner or lover, but a piece of meat which should do things if you followed socially expected behavior).
The short answer: you’d end up self-sabotaging, even if you get lucky and get some short term results.
It is an imprecise definition, but to take away more general advice, perhaps this is:
1) Be the best person you can be (and seek to find for yourself what that means, by noticing the people you admire in your life who you judge to be good people)
2) Don't pretend to be something you are not just to find a relationship or impress someone. If you followed 1), then you will be both attractive and acting in a way you feel good about, instead of being an asshole.
This generally agrees with your comment, while adding a bit with point 2) about how authenticity can be defined as "don't be something you are not, unless you genuinely want to change for yourself and yourself only."
1) Be the best person you can be (and seek to find for yourself what that means, by noticing the people you admire in your life who you judge to be good people)
2) Don't pretend to be something you are not just to find a relationship or impress someone. If you followed 1), then you will be both attractive and acting in a way you feel good about, instead of being an asshole.
This generally agrees with your comment, while adding a bit with point 2) about how authenticity can be defined as "don't be something you are not, unless you genuinely want to change for yourself and yourself only."
I specifically talk about going inward to find out who you really are — and that does mean, it is not about the role model.
Or rather, if you are going to use a role model, there is a particular confusion I advise watching out for. Your own admiration reflects your deep sense of qualities important to you, not necessarily something inherent in the person behind the role model. The role model’s role is not to model behaviors and actions, but to reflect what is already within you.
Once you recognize this feeling of admiration, I advise tracing, with your own awareness and mind, where it is coming from within. That involves meditation, and maybe therapy.
If instead, you chase after that other person, you awareness goes after them. Maybe you luck out, and the person behind the role model will keep reflecting it back to you. Chances are, that is not what will happen.
Or rather, if you are going to use a role model, there is a particular confusion I advise watching out for. Your own admiration reflects your deep sense of qualities important to you, not necessarily something inherent in the person behind the role model. The role model’s role is not to model behaviors and actions, but to reflect what is already within you.
Once you recognize this feeling of admiration, I advise tracing, with your own awareness and mind, where it is coming from within. That involves meditation, and maybe therapy.
If instead, you chase after that other person, you awareness goes after them. Maybe you luck out, and the person behind the role model will keep reflecting it back to you. Chances are, that is not what will happen.
Like they say, "Be yourself, just a bit better" :)
I recommend you to read the following book: “The Soulmate Experience: A Practical Guide to Creating Extraordinary Relationships”[1] — Mali Apple and Joe Dunn.
This book helped me tremendously, miles ahead of any mental health professionals that I met. You can read the first two chapters for free[2]. It's also available as an audiobook on Audible[3], and it's read by the authors of the book.
Outline:
– First part: practical ways to build a better relationship with yourself.
– Second part: a better relationships with yourself empowers you to build healthy relationships with others and set realistic boundaries. The book then gives you practical & actionable tips to help you handle the interpersonal aspects of relationships.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Soulmate-Experience-Practical-Extraor...
[2] http://www.maliandjoe.com/freechapters
[3] https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Soulmate-Experience-Audiobook...
This book helped me tremendously, miles ahead of any mental health professionals that I met. You can read the first two chapters for free[2]. It's also available as an audiobook on Audible[3], and it's read by the authors of the book.
Outline:
– First part: practical ways to build a better relationship with yourself.
– Second part: a better relationships with yourself empowers you to build healthy relationships with others and set realistic boundaries. The book then gives you practical & actionable tips to help you handle the interpersonal aspects of relationships.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Soulmate-Experience-Practical-Extraor...
[2] http://www.maliandjoe.com/freechapters
[3] https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Soulmate-Experience-Audiobook...
Longer term:
Communication isn’t about eloquence it’s about conveying what each person thinks, wants, hopes etc which involves both verbal and non verbal responses. Not bringing something up is failing to communicate as is hiding what you want or talking over them etc. That very much applies in and out of bead.
Finances make and break long term relationships, it’s the most common thing for couples to argue about and can quickly poison relationships. Impulse control is a big part of this, as is communicating expectations etc. There isn’t a universal correct answer but they are many pitfalls.
Health is a skill just as much as it’s a time and money sink. Leaning to deal with stress and unhealthy habits are a prerequisite for a healthy relationship. This goes both ways, physical and mental attractiveness is dependent on both mental and physical heath.
Time management it’s more about priorities than scheduling. Relationships take time as do kids, work, hobbies, etc.
Happiness is a skill and habit. If things aren’t going well you need to figure a way to improve them not just push through. Planning and following through long term is important not just fantasizing about things getting better.
Chores are as much habits as anything else, you can change your habits if you make real effort.
Communication isn’t about eloquence it’s about conveying what each person thinks, wants, hopes etc which involves both verbal and non verbal responses. Not bringing something up is failing to communicate as is hiding what you want or talking over them etc. That very much applies in and out of bead.
Finances make and break long term relationships, it’s the most common thing for couples to argue about and can quickly poison relationships. Impulse control is a big part of this, as is communicating expectations etc. There isn’t a universal correct answer but they are many pitfalls.
Health is a skill just as much as it’s a time and money sink. Leaning to deal with stress and unhealthy habits are a prerequisite for a healthy relationship. This goes both ways, physical and mental attractiveness is dependent on both mental and physical heath.
Time management it’s more about priorities than scheduling. Relationships take time as do kids, work, hobbies, etc.
Happiness is a skill and habit. If things aren’t going well you need to figure a way to improve them not just push through. Planning and following through long term is important not just fantasizing about things getting better.
Chores are as much habits as anything else, you can change your habits if you make real effort.
I think it important first to entertain, for yourself, whether sexuality might be among the most poorly developed, poorly studied and poorly understood facets of humanity. Then consider the deep implications of that.
You as an HN reader I assume are intellectually-minded and tend to pursue subjects more deeply than most. If that’s the case, and if that’s an approach you’d likely take in learning about and experiencing a better ‘love life’, then you may be best off seeing that as a quest or artistic endeavour rather than a pursuit for existing answers.
Based on your question, and specifically the wording of your question, you’ll need to form a personal ‘framework’ for yourself. I think the formula is thus: Read widely and off the beaten path. Evaluate your inclinations and behaviour in relation to others in a wide variety of intimate situations and in relation to what you want. Engage in sexual situations with others who seem to navigate sexuality well for themselves; ask questions and observe.
You as an HN reader I assume are intellectually-minded and tend to pursue subjects more deeply than most. If that’s the case, and if that’s an approach you’d likely take in learning about and experiencing a better ‘love life’, then you may be best off seeing that as a quest or artistic endeavour rather than a pursuit for existing answers.
Based on your question, and specifically the wording of your question, you’ll need to form a personal ‘framework’ for yourself. I think the formula is thus: Read widely and off the beaten path. Evaluate your inclinations and behaviour in relation to others in a wide variety of intimate situations and in relation to what you want. Engage in sexual situations with others who seem to navigate sexuality well for themselves; ask questions and observe.
Work on yourself.
People like being around happy people. Be a person that other people want to be around.
Be a happy person. Doesn't matter how much you listen, or communicate, or commit, feel ... the other party isn't going to stick around long if you are unhappy.
Be happy.
People like being around happy people. Be a person that other people want to be around.
Be a happy person. Doesn't matter how much you listen, or communicate, or commit, feel ... the other party isn't going to stick around long if you are unhappy.
Be happy.
Popular ideas about this in our culture are missing the fact that there are many parts here and you need to work on all of them.
1) Learn emotional vulnerability. This makes love and emotional depth in a relationship possible. It also shows confidence and strength as it can be scary. Models by Mark Manson is a great book on this.
2) Learn social skills to manage conflicts and set boundaries, e.g. assertive communication.
3) Deal with your emotional issues, e.g. with therapy.
4) Be attractive and take care of your body. Regular weight training, a healthy diet, dressing well, and grooming well can really transform your physical attractiveness. Spend time really learning these things, and consider hiring experts to teach you, e.g. a fitness coach. None of the emotional or social things above will help if your partner isn’t physically attracted to you.
5) Get good at sex. This depends a lot on what you want, and what the person you are dating wants… and can be taboo to talk about. But in my experience most (but not all) straight women want a partner to be surprisingly dominant and aggressive.
Ultimately all of these just amount to being emotionally and physically healthy.
I had a lot of anxiety about my attractiveness going back on the dating market after ending a 20 year relationship, but I had been working hard on the above things for years. I was surprised to find that, as a middle aged man, I really stood out as a desirable partner, and dating was a really enjoyable experience.
1) Learn emotional vulnerability. This makes love and emotional depth in a relationship possible. It also shows confidence and strength as it can be scary. Models by Mark Manson is a great book on this.
2) Learn social skills to manage conflicts and set boundaries, e.g. assertive communication.
3) Deal with your emotional issues, e.g. with therapy.
4) Be attractive and take care of your body. Regular weight training, a healthy diet, dressing well, and grooming well can really transform your physical attractiveness. Spend time really learning these things, and consider hiring experts to teach you, e.g. a fitness coach. None of the emotional or social things above will help if your partner isn’t physically attracted to you.
5) Get good at sex. This depends a lot on what you want, and what the person you are dating wants… and can be taboo to talk about. But in my experience most (but not all) straight women want a partner to be surprisingly dominant and aggressive.
Ultimately all of these just amount to being emotionally and physically healthy.
I had a lot of anxiety about my attractiveness going back on the dating market after ending a 20 year relationship, but I had been working hard on the above things for years. I was surprised to find that, as a middle aged man, I really stood out as a desirable partner, and dating was a really enjoyable experience.
To add on to the last two points:
4) regular exercise and improving yourself also gives you a sense of achievement and something to be proud of if you set and achieve your goals. In addition to the physical changes, these will make you more attractive.
5) You can learn about sex (what you enjoy, what your preferred partners might enjoy) on your own. The better you know yourself and the better informed you are, the easier it is to communicate and find common ground with partners as well. I've been reading Dan Savage since my twenties, and recently listening to him in a podcast made me realize how much of a positive effect his approach to sex and relationships has had on me.
4) regular exercise and improving yourself also gives you a sense of achievement and something to be proud of if you set and achieve your goals. In addition to the physical changes, these will make you more attractive.
5) You can learn about sex (what you enjoy, what your preferred partners might enjoy) on your own. The better you know yourself and the better informed you are, the easier it is to communicate and find common ground with partners as well. I've been reading Dan Savage since my twenties, and recently listening to him in a podcast made me realize how much of a positive effect his approach to sex and relationships has had on me.
I’ll second those points as well! I think sometimes people try to learn about sex from reading, etc. but most people just need to get out of their head and into their body, feeling rather than thinking.
It is definitely achievable but the course of action would be different for you depending who you are. An unreliable sex fiend needs to make different changes than an anxious shy person. Communication is important for everyone though, and a desire to fearlessly ask for (crucially, not force) the things you want. Knowing what you want requires self knowledge. Attaining that could take years. Remember that the easiest person to fool is yourself. Disclaimer this all comes from an American culture context in which people are hypothetically equal and individuals are usually expected to seek out a romantic match as opposed to, say,a family-approved one. Wish I could help more, best of luck
You don't need to be an alpha male. You don't need a massive bank account. You don't need to know how to salsa dance, play the guitar, or fix a car. You don't even need to be a chiseled Greek god. Get all of these "I need to be X" thoughts out of your head.
A relationship is, at its core, a friendship. It is NOT, I repeat, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT an obligation. Nobody owes you a fucking thing, ever. Yes, even if you do something nice for them. Until you can truly think this way, it's not going to work.
You can read some books too or whatever, but please don't use "I read a book on love" as a crutch for actually practicing and taking these values to heart.
It's not a math problem, it's a human problem, and humans aren't some logical puzzle with an answer. Enjoy the ride.
A relationship is, at its core, a friendship. It is NOT, I repeat, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT an obligation. Nobody owes you a fucking thing, ever. Yes, even if you do something nice for them. Until you can truly think this way, it's not going to work.
You can read some books too or whatever, but please don't use "I read a book on love" as a crutch for actually practicing and taking these values to heart.
It's not a math problem, it's a human problem, and humans aren't some logical puzzle with an answer. Enjoy the ride.
> Nobody owes you a fucking thing, ever.
I can't stand this modern, nihilistic, cynical take on love.
A relationship is an obligation, you'll have to do things you don't want to do to care for your partner. Marriage starts with a list of vows, a relationship is a mutual engagement to care for the other. It is literally a list of things you are owed, you are owed having your partner stand by you when you are sick, you are owed having your partner care and provide for you when you can't provide for yourself. It is not the reason you give them your love but it doesn't mean it is not owed. A relationship comes with many responsibilities, it is not just two entirely separate individuals who owe each other nothing and can do whatever they please and just happen to live together. If you don't feel your owe your partner your loyalty and love and care, you are not doing your part.
I can't stand this modern, nihilistic, cynical take on love.
A relationship is an obligation, you'll have to do things you don't want to do to care for your partner. Marriage starts with a list of vows, a relationship is a mutual engagement to care for the other. It is literally a list of things you are owed, you are owed having your partner stand by you when you are sick, you are owed having your partner care and provide for you when you can't provide for yourself. It is not the reason you give them your love but it doesn't mean it is not owed. A relationship comes with many responsibilities, it is not just two entirely separate individuals who owe each other nothing and can do whatever they please and just happen to live together. If you don't feel your owe your partner your loyalty and love and care, you are not doing your part.
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I don't know. I basically give up self improvements on traditional human relationship. For me the secrets of the Universe are much more interesting and hugely rewarding comparing to petty human interactions. Human relationship is also too difficult for people like me, we are basically gaining 1 for every 10 efforts we make, while others can easily gain 10 for every 1 effort.
Let's not fall into the fallacy of human relationship. Let's do what we, as humans, not simple animals, are supposed to achieve ultimately: to understand, conquer and break through the laws of universe. In that perspective, we do build relationship but not on love or family. Instead we build on a common noble goal.
Let's not fall into the fallacy of human relationship. Let's do what we, as humans, not simple animals, are supposed to achieve ultimately: to understand, conquer and break through the laws of universe. In that perspective, we do build relationship but not on love or family. Instead we build on a common noble goal.
1. You cannot "make" people "fall in love" with you.
2. Love isn't about "falling". What people call "falling in love" is romance. Romance, while not a bad thing and arguably even a nice thing, is not the same thing as love. The function of romance is to easy people toward a committed relationship and procreation.
3. Romance is emotional. While emotions are appropriate to love, they are not love themselves. Love is not an essentially emotional phenomenon. Those who view love this way are condemned to a life of miserable and lonely self-indulgence. Incidentally, marriages of convenience can be more successful, i.e., because of the absence of excessive romantic expectation.
4. Love is about willing the objective good of the other. Not wishing, but willing. Willing the good of the other means living for the good of the other. That is something we can choose, as opposed to emotions which are volatile and changing.
5. Willing presupposes knowing as we cannot love what we do not know.
6. The capacity to love isn't a "skill set". It's a matter of character. Selfish and transactional people cannot love.
7. Character is a matter of virtue.
8. Relationships are rooted in a common good which is prioritized over the personal or private good (which, perhaps paradoxically, depend on that common good). Otherwise, there is no relationship.
9. Relationships mean sacrificing for the other, for the common good which has primacy over each person's personal or private good. Perhaps another paradox: we find ourselves in 'losing' ourselves.
10. Perfect love casts out all fear. Fear is rooted in the prospect of personal or private loss. By willing the good of the other, you overcome selfishness and thus the fear of loss.
11. The other in the relationship is a person, like you, not an instrument to be used for your satisfaction or your happiness. Instrumentalizing the other leads to misery.
12. Despite our contemporary egalitarian biases and sentiments, sex differences do translate into sex-determined duties and relations. Failing to respect them leads to discord, confusion, disharmony, and even grievance.
13. While we have no duty to marry, once married, we have voluntarily assumed duties which are now binding for life.
14. Marriage is committing. Shacking up is noncommittal and therefore unloving, rooted as it is in selfish opportunism, the desire for an "escape hatch".
2. Love isn't about "falling". What people call "falling in love" is romance. Romance, while not a bad thing and arguably even a nice thing, is not the same thing as love. The function of romance is to easy people toward a committed relationship and procreation.
3. Romance is emotional. While emotions are appropriate to love, they are not love themselves. Love is not an essentially emotional phenomenon. Those who view love this way are condemned to a life of miserable and lonely self-indulgence. Incidentally, marriages of convenience can be more successful, i.e., because of the absence of excessive romantic expectation.
4. Love is about willing the objective good of the other. Not wishing, but willing. Willing the good of the other means living for the good of the other. That is something we can choose, as opposed to emotions which are volatile and changing.
5. Willing presupposes knowing as we cannot love what we do not know.
6. The capacity to love isn't a "skill set". It's a matter of character. Selfish and transactional people cannot love.
7. Character is a matter of virtue.
8. Relationships are rooted in a common good which is prioritized over the personal or private good (which, perhaps paradoxically, depend on that common good). Otherwise, there is no relationship.
9. Relationships mean sacrificing for the other, for the common good which has primacy over each person's personal or private good. Perhaps another paradox: we find ourselves in 'losing' ourselves.
10. Perfect love casts out all fear. Fear is rooted in the prospect of personal or private loss. By willing the good of the other, you overcome selfishness and thus the fear of loss.
11. The other in the relationship is a person, like you, not an instrument to be used for your satisfaction or your happiness. Instrumentalizing the other leads to misery.
12. Despite our contemporary egalitarian biases and sentiments, sex differences do translate into sex-determined duties and relations. Failing to respect them leads to discord, confusion, disharmony, and even grievance.
13. While we have no duty to marry, once married, we have voluntarily assumed duties which are now binding for life.
14. Marriage is committing. Shacking up is noncommittal and therefore unloving, rooted as it is in selfish opportunism, the desire for an "escape hatch".
I agree with all you wrote. However, the question is then, how do you find somebody who shares the same views? Finding that special someone is the hardest part in my experience. Even if you can convince some to give you a chance, what are the chances that they will share your most important values?
All you have to do is get use to initiating conversation with strangers out and about.
People have no problem swiping literally every person on Tinder/bumble but I have had lovers specifically tell me that no one ever hits on them in person. "Hitting" on them meaning starting exactly the same "get to know you" conversation in person that would be done on a dating app.
There is literally this dating app called "real life" that all single people are on but 99% of suitors are blindly swiping left no matter what.
People have no problem swiping literally every person on Tinder/bumble but I have had lovers specifically tell me that no one ever hits on them in person. "Hitting" on them meaning starting exactly the same "get to know you" conversation in person that would be done on a dating app.
There is literally this dating app called "real life" that all single people are on but 99% of suitors are blindly swiping left no matter what.
Practice talking to strangers! It’s quite awkward at first, but it gets much easier with time. Just strike up a conversation with anyone you meet in the street. Ask questions, you’d be surprised how easy it is to get people to talk about themselves and through that get a conversation going.
Don’t know how much this plays into the long-term aspect, but I figure the easier it is for you to meet people, the easier it will be to meet someone who matches you.
Don’t know how much this plays into the long-term aspect, but I figure the easier it is for you to meet people, the easier it will be to meet someone who matches you.
It also gives a small boost of joy, for me at least communicating and smiling with another human being i dont know makes me think the world is better after all :)
> I am asking about lifelong habits that can *make people fall in love with you*
It's official! People here dont even read past the title! "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"
But yeah, you may have unnecessarily low self esteem to think you need to make someone love you. Stop forcing it like it's something you are owed. It is lucky to find someone who loves you. Treat it with the respect it deserves and it should follow naturally from there. Treat it like a game and you will always lose.
More practically, (assuming American norms, hetero-male-ish situation),
- learn to play your favorite song on guitar. playing music can be a powerful way to communicate emotion when you lack the confidence to be emotional otherwise.
- study classic standup comedy like Carlin or Robin Williams. Comedy helps us relate to each other.
- practice good self care. being alone doesnt have to be lonely or miserable.
- if you have trouble being present with people, consider talking to a therapist.
The common theme is that there is very little you can do to directly make someone love you. But if you learn to love yourself, you will at least have some practice for if/when the real deal comes along.
It's official! People here dont even read past the title! "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"
But yeah, you may have unnecessarily low self esteem to think you need to make someone love you. Stop forcing it like it's something you are owed. It is lucky to find someone who loves you. Treat it with the respect it deserves and it should follow naturally from there. Treat it like a game and you will always lose.
More practically, (assuming American norms, hetero-male-ish situation),
- learn to play your favorite song on guitar. playing music can be a powerful way to communicate emotion when you lack the confidence to be emotional otherwise.
- study classic standup comedy like Carlin or Robin Williams. Comedy helps us relate to each other.
- practice good self care. being alone doesnt have to be lonely or miserable.
- if you have trouble being present with people, consider talking to a therapist.
The common theme is that there is very little you can do to directly make someone love you. But if you learn to love yourself, you will at least have some practice for if/when the real deal comes along.
I found the book "The Psychology of Romantic Love" pretty insightful. It gave me a better view of what love means culturally.
Also there is a saying which goes in the direction: to love, to hate, or not to care. It's great to love, sometimes there can be hate/anger/disagreement, but you know the relationship needs work if you stop caring about each other in certain situations. So whenever one falls into 3, it's time to think, talk and do something. It's not always critical, but it shows an absence of attention for each other.
And my grandmother used to say, sometimes you can be very angry at each other, it's important to discuss it thoroughly, maybe even loud, and then leave it there and go on.
Also there is a saying which goes in the direction: to love, to hate, or not to care. It's great to love, sometimes there can be hate/anger/disagreement, but you know the relationship needs work if you stop caring about each other in certain situations. So whenever one falls into 3, it's time to think, talk and do something. It's not always critical, but it shows an absence of attention for each other.
And my grandmother used to say, sometimes you can be very angry at each other, it's important to discuss it thoroughly, maybe even loud, and then leave it there and go on.
I would recommend learning about the different "love languages" and understand that people experience love differently. In general try to provide a better experience for your partner by understanding their needs. Many people say that you can't be a good lover of you don't practice "self love" first, I agree with this. Along those lines, if someone consistently treats you poorly and you've tried to communicate that you don't like it, remove them from your life, your happiness comes first.
Positivity, abundance, gratitude, mental stability, internal locus of control, unconditional positive regard, mindfulness, sharing of all the above with others.
Basically, be a better person (internally! Start by being kinder to yourself! It’s really hard!)
Then work on communicating that to others. Yes, external attributes (attractiveness, fitness, wealth) matter insofar they’re the first thing(s) others notice about you. Both having options (actual abundance) and knowing you have options (abundance mentally) are extremely important.
Basically, be a better person (internally! Start by being kinder to yourself! It’s really hard!)
Then work on communicating that to others. Yes, external attributes (attractiveness, fitness, wealth) matter insofar they’re the first thing(s) others notice about you. Both having options (actual abundance) and knowing you have options (abundance mentally) are extremely important.
In my experience, I'd say the single most significant skill is empathy. The more you can correlate to other people the easier it becomes for them to feel attracted to you.
Lots of good advice here. I would add that it can be very useful to learn about Attachment Theory, and the different relationship styles and needs that come out of the ways that individuals express adult attachment. Personally, it made some things clear to me that I hadn't fully understood before.
If you want a book thrn Attached by Levine and Heller is a useful book that concentrates on practical understanding and concepts. Recommended.
If you want a book thrn Attached by Levine and Heller is a useful book that concentrates on practical understanding and concepts. Recommended.
If you watch it at all, stop watching pornography. Its consumption is in many ways the opposite of both love and sexual intimacy.
The quality and intimacy of my relationships (both romantic and interpersonal) before and after I stopped consuming pornography is night-and-day.
This is something that you can do which will remain stable and long lasting for the rest of your life, and it has amplified my ability to love and to receive love immeasurably.
The quality and intimacy of my relationships (both romantic and interpersonal) before and after I stopped consuming pornography is night-and-day.
This is something that you can do which will remain stable and long lasting for the rest of your life, and it has amplified my ability to love and to receive love immeasurably.
Or just mentally separate the two concerns completely
Don't ask here or anywhere online. Ask your mother or father, or if they're not around, ask your older friends who are in relationships.
Don't overthink it and don't be too afraid of judgement. Spend plenty of time and communicate often. Be deliberate when expressing your thoughts, yet free when expressing your emotions. Do not focus your attention on them or yourself as much as the things you do together. Don't regret what doesn't happen, but appreciate what does.
Anyone giving advice should post how long they've been with their partner. Been with my partner for 15 years. Having a similar sense of humor is critical. Knowing your role in the power dynamic and how to embody it is also critical (are you leading or following?). Staying desirable is important (stay fit, take care of yourself, look good).
> lifelong habits that can make people fall in love with you
Well, no, but:
1) Figure out who you are and what is appropriate for you, especially in the context of your values and your behaviors. Do the kinds of things that naturally emerge from that perspective and let the other sovereign individuals do their kinds of things and let it sort itself out.
2) Be the type of person who does the kinds of things that desirable-to-you people find attractive and lovable until they notice and you build a reputation for it and you enter into the kind of relationship that naturally occurs within this context.
Intermingle some heartache and heartbreak and hold on loosely, don't let go, la la la.
Any specific advice anyone gives you has a very high probability of being inapplicable to your unique circumstance. Following it has a very high probability of wasting your time, although perhaps you will eventually learn the lesson of not taking other people's advice about how to be/do/fulfill...you.
Well, no, but:
1) Figure out who you are and what is appropriate for you, especially in the context of your values and your behaviors. Do the kinds of things that naturally emerge from that perspective and let the other sovereign individuals do their kinds of things and let it sort itself out.
2) Be the type of person who does the kinds of things that desirable-to-you people find attractive and lovable until they notice and you build a reputation for it and you enter into the kind of relationship that naturally occurs within this context.
Intermingle some heartache and heartbreak and hold on loosely, don't let go, la la la.
Any specific advice anyone gives you has a very high probability of being inapplicable to your unique circumstance. Following it has a very high probability of wasting your time, although perhaps you will eventually learn the lesson of not taking other people's advice about how to be/do/fulfill...you.
One thing my current partner loves about me, and I love about them, is that we talk about our feelings. Our expectations, fears, and difficulties. And what feels good :-)
I'm still learning to volunteer more, without them having to prompt me for it.
Yes some things are hard to hear from your partner. Be accepting, and expect the same from them.
I'm still learning to volunteer more, without them having to prompt me for it.
Yes some things are hard to hear from your partner. Be accepting, and expect the same from them.
Assuming you’re a cis-hetero male, as you talk about both love and a lasting relationship, I can vouch for https://www.amazon.com/Married-Man-Life-Primer-2011-ebook/dp... from years of happy marriage - even if you‘re not married yet. It takes you through all of the fundamentals.
Some key takeaways:
- Stability and centeredness of your own life is the key to a healthy love life
- Learn about both alpha and beta traits, master both
- It‘s impossible to make exactly one woman in your life desire you. It‘s either zero or many.
- Fitness is not optional. Don‘t assume any success if you don‘t lift
Some key takeaways:
- Stability and centeredness of your own life is the key to a healthy love life
- Learn about both alpha and beta traits, master both
- It‘s impossible to make exactly one woman in your life desire you. It‘s either zero or many.
- Fitness is not optional. Don‘t assume any success if you don‘t lift
For love life, pay attention to quality of sex (and lack of). Over time, this gives you an idea of where the relationships is heading. Rarely are there good relationships without sex and viceversa.
[deleted]
Yes, therapy.
[seriously, think of it like hardcore bug fixing so you can have production stability, performance tweaks and less maintenance burden]
[seriously, think of it like hardcore bug fixing so you can have production stability, performance tweaks and less maintenance burden]
Take improv classes. You’ll learn how to listen and how to carry on conversations about other people’s deals. You might even find more confidence about your own sense of humor. You’ll also make new friends, and those friends have friends and siblings and coworkers who you’ll meet and charm and be charmed by.
Find someone loyal and kind and, in stages, offer to devote your life to them. Any time you feel your trust has been broken or your devotion not reciprocated, express that to your partner. If the situation can't be worked out, leave immediately.
Love is about commitment.
Love is about commitment.
Do keep in mind that some of those "shrewd methods" are things you should make habits because they will serve you well in a relationship (positive flirting, affirmation, touch, setting boundaries)
Aspire to be a bit more like Jim from "The Office". Do a bunch of sweet and silly gestures/pranks for people you care about.
This perspective is inspired by: pickup artists, feminism and hacking. I feel I belong to all 3 groups (it sounds paradoxical but it's resolvable, too long to write here).
This is not structured.
Use meditation to learn about love as a skill (metta, tonglen). Read Search Inside Yourself. Become more altruistic, less egocentric, more equanimous and more sensitive to the own sensations in your body. See dhamma.org
Also screen for if you have compatible values (really do this, I see so many issues because some men are already happy if anyone loves them at all)
The biggest hacks are:
1. Traveling: it's easier to hookup so the hard part is done (making them sexually attracted to you). Now you can get to know them for real and be serious. For people that claim this can't be done. I'm living it, I might need to relocate to the US but I'm currently a nomad, so I can do whatever. Of course, you'll find party girls or non-serious women. Somewhere after making out with them, you'll realize that and can screen them out.
2. Social momentum: sometimes I go out during the day, cold approach 5 to 10 women and cold approach a couple of strangers to for social fun (I met a friendly music hippie the other day!). At the end of it, you're much sharper and much wittier. If you then cold approach a woman the likelihood of her being attracted to you is higher. Note: you need to be optimistic about the process, you're going to be rejected a lot (or at least feel rejected a lot). I always ask myself "what could I do better in this approach" and most times I see improvements since my social skills aren't that great. Such as: talk louder, talk slower, talk with a more positive tone (she doesn't know you and is a stranger you need to be positive in the beginning of meeting someone on a cold approach), stand up straight, smile, have an open body posture, do your best to make her day better, etc.
3. Play the numbers, play them hard. Pickup artists that say you can seduce anyone and everyone: lol, no. It's a numbers game and you can improve your likelihood of attracting, seducing and loving someone but we're talking about the 1% to 10% range at most. Become used to rejection desensitize yourself to it. Stay nice and respectful to everyone while becoming numb to it. Think by sets of 100.
My method:
I'm imaginative and curious. I've noticed that in order to be found attractive by a woman at the very least I need a few things:
1. A good or positive vibe
2. Something special, pickup artists call it status (bullshit). I call it something special because if she values that you have a crazy intelligent mind, boom, you're in.
3. Intent from my side
Here's how I fill that in:
1. I focus on playfulness, I find playfulness awesome. Banter is fun, being funny is fun, but being playful gives me existential satisfaction. So playfulness forms the (conscious) fundament of whatever good vibe I vibe out. It's either that or metta/love.
2. That something special in my case is I'm a fantastical person. My imagination is huge, if women don't appreciate me for it, next, numbers game, rejection, whatever. Talk to the next woman you fancy. I screen hard, because I know that what in order to experience a better love life I need fireworks on: intellect, emotions and physical.
3. Intent: simply say it somewhere during the interaction 1 to 3 times.
Don't underestimate meditation and metta in all of this. Also, when it comes to love there is little to no room for ego. Every time when I put myself out there and get rejected I am reminded of that. Got rejected yesterday pretty harshly, Tinder date. Vibe was awesome, intellectually cool, I found her visually really appealing. So I asked “do you kiss on the first date?” It turns out she felt more friendship. It fucking hurts, I (almost) always get it. It frustrates to no end. But I have to feel it. I have to empathize with how she feels about it. It matters to keep on feeling. It matters to empathize, despite my own wants/needs. Meditation helps to give those feelings a place by using equanimity. It still hurted, and there I saw my ego. Hello ego, no more ego. Ego went away (it’s all temporary if course). I felt at peace. Better luck next time :)
Relationship-wise:
Non-violent Communication
Even more meditation (anapana, vipassana, metta and tonglen)
Empathy (note: not always sympathy but always empathy)
Read the sex god method
Learn about kink/bdsm, even if you’re vanilla. Visit a munch even
Help others, like the homeless (cultivates love)
Help your partner
Have boundaries
Ask for help when you need it, dare to!
Be amazing at detecting shit from yourself and shit from others. Aka don’t walk over your partner and have the skills they won’t walk over you
More playfulness, playfulness forms like 50% of all interactions. You will see each other’s weird side
Learn a dance together like bachata
That's all I have for now.
This is not structured.
Use meditation to learn about love as a skill (metta, tonglen). Read Search Inside Yourself. Become more altruistic, less egocentric, more equanimous and more sensitive to the own sensations in your body. See dhamma.org
Also screen for if you have compatible values (really do this, I see so many issues because some men are already happy if anyone loves them at all)
The biggest hacks are:
1. Traveling: it's easier to hookup so the hard part is done (making them sexually attracted to you). Now you can get to know them for real and be serious. For people that claim this can't be done. I'm living it, I might need to relocate to the US but I'm currently a nomad, so I can do whatever. Of course, you'll find party girls or non-serious women. Somewhere after making out with them, you'll realize that and can screen them out.
2. Social momentum: sometimes I go out during the day, cold approach 5 to 10 women and cold approach a couple of strangers to for social fun (I met a friendly music hippie the other day!). At the end of it, you're much sharper and much wittier. If you then cold approach a woman the likelihood of her being attracted to you is higher. Note: you need to be optimistic about the process, you're going to be rejected a lot (or at least feel rejected a lot). I always ask myself "what could I do better in this approach" and most times I see improvements since my social skills aren't that great. Such as: talk louder, talk slower, talk with a more positive tone (she doesn't know you and is a stranger you need to be positive in the beginning of meeting someone on a cold approach), stand up straight, smile, have an open body posture, do your best to make her day better, etc.
3. Play the numbers, play them hard. Pickup artists that say you can seduce anyone and everyone: lol, no. It's a numbers game and you can improve your likelihood of attracting, seducing and loving someone but we're talking about the 1% to 10% range at most. Become used to rejection desensitize yourself to it. Stay nice and respectful to everyone while becoming numb to it. Think by sets of 100.
My method:
I'm imaginative and curious. I've noticed that in order to be found attractive by a woman at the very least I need a few things:
1. A good or positive vibe
2. Something special, pickup artists call it status (bullshit). I call it something special because if she values that you have a crazy intelligent mind, boom, you're in.
3. Intent from my side
Here's how I fill that in:
1. I focus on playfulness, I find playfulness awesome. Banter is fun, being funny is fun, but being playful gives me existential satisfaction. So playfulness forms the (conscious) fundament of whatever good vibe I vibe out. It's either that or metta/love.
2. That something special in my case is I'm a fantastical person. My imagination is huge, if women don't appreciate me for it, next, numbers game, rejection, whatever. Talk to the next woman you fancy. I screen hard, because I know that what in order to experience a better love life I need fireworks on: intellect, emotions and physical.
3. Intent: simply say it somewhere during the interaction 1 to 3 times.
Don't underestimate meditation and metta in all of this. Also, when it comes to love there is little to no room for ego. Every time when I put myself out there and get rejected I am reminded of that. Got rejected yesterday pretty harshly, Tinder date. Vibe was awesome, intellectually cool, I found her visually really appealing. So I asked “do you kiss on the first date?” It turns out she felt more friendship. It fucking hurts, I (almost) always get it. It frustrates to no end. But I have to feel it. I have to empathize with how she feels about it. It matters to keep on feeling. It matters to empathize, despite my own wants/needs. Meditation helps to give those feelings a place by using equanimity. It still hurted, and there I saw my ego. Hello ego, no more ego. Ego went away (it’s all temporary if course). I felt at peace. Better luck next time :)
Relationship-wise:
Non-violent Communication
Even more meditation (anapana, vipassana, metta and tonglen)
Empathy (note: not always sympathy but always empathy)
Read the sex god method
Learn about kink/bdsm, even if you’re vanilla. Visit a munch even
Help others, like the homeless (cultivates love)
Help your partner
Have boundaries
Ask for help when you need it, dare to!
Be amazing at detecting shit from yourself and shit from others. Aka don’t walk over your partner and have the skills they won’t walk over you
More playfulness, playfulness forms like 50% of all interactions. You will see each other’s weird side
Learn a dance together like bachata
That's all I have for now.
1. Stop eating junk food and drinking soda.
2. Stop consuming ultra processed carbs, limit processed carbs.
3. Start working out every day.
2. Stop consuming ultra processed carbs, limit processed carbs.
3. Start working out every day.
Get fit, be able to provide, be kind. Should be enough to get you what you’re looking for.
You can't change your appearance or personality very much. I suppose you can dress a bit better, be a bit more fit, or learn to avoid faux pas if that's an issue.
But the main component is to meet people. Even the most attractive person will stay single if they don't interact with others.
But the main component is to meet people. Even the most attractive person will stay single if they don't interact with others.
Can't most people get a lot more fit?
Grow as a person.
No! It cannot be that simple! Yeah, but if you ask people in there 50s and older that is the common core answer to that question.
Either learn form your elders or do not...my bias is that I am of later half of the boomer generation.
No! It cannot be that simple! Yeah, but if you ask people in there 50s and older that is the common core answer to that question.
Either learn form your elders or do not...my bias is that I am of later half of the boomer generation.
Of course. Better selection of people you invest in. Refinement and understanding of self.
Follow https://understandingrelationships.com/life-coaching-service... - read free book 10-20 times :)
Read 'No more Mr. Nice Guy'.
Invest in relationship knowledge as much as you do in other topics of interest.
Follow https://understandingrelationships.com/life-coaching-service... - read free book 10-20 times :)
Read 'No more Mr. Nice Guy'.
Invest in relationship knowledge as much as you do in other topics of interest.
I dunno. This website seems “unreliable”.
And crypto sites seem "reliable".
Doesn't matter what it "seems", but what it is.
Watch the dude on youtube.
Weirdly enough, some of the best advice I've had were from sites like this. 90% of everything is junk, but the non-junk books have the same cover.
I don't know about this particular site, though.
I don't know about this particular site, though.
The site is crap, but the advice is spot on
I am not asking about shrewd methods to lure someone into loving or wanting you. I am asking about lifelong habits that can make people fall in love with you that eventually remains stable and long lasting.