RapidSlide Adjustable Wrench(mechanomy.com)
mechanomy.com
RapidSlide Adjustable Wrench
https://mechanomy.com/posts/221212_slideWrench/
21 comments
Knipex makes some decent adjustable wrenches (not crescent style, though). Their Pliers Wrench line has an adjustment mechanism like a channel lock plier, but then has a jaw that’s on a cam mechanism to keep the two jaws parallel. One direction they’re just as good as a crescent wrench, but in the other direction it “self tightens” and you can really reef on it. The cam mechanism allows you to loosen your grip and there’s just enough room for a bolt head/nut to spin around, so it’s almost like having a ratchet, too. Only downsides are price and they are not super low profile so you need a bit of room to turn in.
Knipex Pliers-Wrenches are the absolute BEST.
> Only downsides are price and they are not super low profile so you need a bit of room to turn in.
Pricey, but buy quality and cry once.
As for low profile, I actually find them nearly as thin as a typical crescent in terms of the handle; while the head may be same or thinner.
I recommend buying more than one size
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
> Only downsides are price and they are not super low profile so you need a bit of room to turn in.
Pricey, but buy quality and cry once.
As for low profile, I actually find them nearly as thin as a typical crescent in terms of the handle; while the head may be same or thinner.
I recommend buying more than one size
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
I've heard a lot of recommendations for Knipex. I might yet break down and buy one of those even if it is a little bulky.
The mini version isn't bulky:
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
A thing of beauty
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
A thing of beauty
I've got the XS which is even smaller, and has the distinction of being the only wrench I carry with me on MTB/hiking trips, basically an EDC item in the pouch of my backpack:
https://www.knipex-tools.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-wate...
The mini has still got the pushbutton and dual locking tabs, the XS is more compact, much lighter, and is slightly more complicated to use, but can be used one-handed.
It's fixed a number of problems with skis, bikes, and tents that you might not expect of its size, it will do properly maintained axle nuts and other large fasteners (it prefers 12mm and less, where most wrenches suck, but can do up to 18mm or 3/4"). I carry the 10" pliers wrench in my work tool bag for working on hydraulics, pneumatics, and it's definitely one of my favorite tools, unlike the accursed worm-gear Crescent wrenches...
https://www.knipex-tools.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-wate...
The mini has still got the pushbutton and dual locking tabs, the XS is more compact, much lighter, and is slightly more complicated to use, but can be used one-handed.
It's fixed a number of problems with skis, bikes, and tents that you might not expect of its size, it will do properly maintained axle nuts and other large fasteners (it prefers 12mm and less, where most wrenches suck, but can do up to 18mm or 3/4"). I carry the 10" pliers wrench in my work tool bag for working on hydraulics, pneumatics, and it's definitely one of my favorite tools, unlike the accursed worm-gear Crescent wrenches...
Nice EDC item. I sometimes use the mini one-handed too, but that requires all fingers and must look awkward.
I love the form factor of this guy. But is it honestly used for anything except smoking joints?
Yes, it's quite useful around the house. Anything that isn't cranked on tight or corroded typically is fine. This is my go-to for most chores involving a wrench.
The XS is useful even as a small tool in a carry-on. I've busted mine (and it's Cobra XS equivalent which is probably more useful on a job site) out in a datacenter, etc. to get a small job done. You can more or less crank on them with as much strength as you can and they won't break or slip.
I bought it as a laugh when I found one 50% off and ended up purchasing a dozen or so as Christmas gifts for my ops staff that year. Fits in the watch pocket of your jeans comfortably, so it's handy to just have on you all day especially if going up and down ladders.
It won't replace a full toolset for a serious job - but as a "just in case" pair for little quick jobs they are unexpectedly useful.
I then ended up with a collection of around 20 various Knipex tools over the years since they simply are so much better than anything else I've found. Their precision nippers are the bees knees for terminating cat5/6 into patch panels, for example.
Definitely pick up a "baby wrench" if you have an excuse to!
The XS is useful even as a small tool in a carry-on. I've busted mine (and it's Cobra XS equivalent which is probably more useful on a job site) out in a datacenter, etc. to get a small job done. You can more or less crank on them with as much strength as you can and they won't break or slip.
I bought it as a laugh when I found one 50% off and ended up purchasing a dozen or so as Christmas gifts for my ops staff that year. Fits in the watch pocket of your jeans comfortably, so it's handy to just have on you all day especially if going up and down ladders.
It won't replace a full toolset for a serious job - but as a "just in case" pair for little quick jobs they are unexpectedly useful.
I then ended up with a collection of around 20 various Knipex tools over the years since they simply are so much better than anything else I've found. Their precision nippers are the bees knees for terminating cat5/6 into patch panels, for example.
Definitely pick up a "baby wrench" if you have an excuse to!
> You can more or less crank on them with as much strength as you can and they won't break or slip.
This seems to be more or less a theme for knipex tools. I know I've put my full weight on a knipex combination plier before to cut something that I probably shouldn't be cutting with it.
Worked fine, no damage to the pliers.
This seems to be more or less a theme for knipex tools. I know I've put my full weight on a knipex combination plier before to cut something that I probably shouldn't be cutting with it.
Worked fine, no damage to the pliers.
You must be talking about the xs version:
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
love it
I have 4 of these Knipex adjustable pliers. I do like them but find that getting them set just right for the task at hand is a bit fiddly. Seems like I am always setting it one setting too loose or too tight.
The Knipex product that I love is their automatic wire stripper.
The Knipex product that I love is their automatic wire stripper.
> getting them set just right for the task at hand is a bit fiddly
I know what you mean, but if I use the bolt that I want to loosen or tighten as a stopper, and then latch into the next bigger position, I think I never miss the right setting.
I know what you mean, but if I use the bolt that I want to loosen or tighten as a stopper, and then latch into the next bigger position, I think I never miss the right setting.
A+ plus plus. A valuable part of my toolkit, would buy again.
Seconded. I have one and a lot of other Knipex tools, the Cobra adjustable pliers being the most loved one. My oldest got handed down from my Dad and is 40 years old, love the W-Germany imprint:-)
My very limited experience with Knipex has me wanting to buy their stuff in the future.
I just bought two of their Cobra channel lock / water pump pliers, an electrician's plier and wire cutters. I decided at 59 I am tired of using rubbish tools - even for DIY duties. I got the trigger from here https://youtu.be/wcs2elc0LsU?t=538
I’ve a set of Wera Joker adjustable wrenches, and for anything they can’t handle a couple of Kniper. Between them I don’t have much need for anything else.
The best quality traditional style adjustable wrenches I am aware of are made by Bahco. They are made with tighter tolerances than typical Home Depot grade stuff, which reduces slipping and damage caused by jaw movement.
https://www.bahco.com/int_en/products/wrenches/adjustable-wr...
However, I prefer the Knipex pliers wrenches mentioned by other commenters. They are also useful for many other gripping, pressing and bending tasks that the traditional adjustables cannot do.
Edit: For vise grip type tools, Grip-On is the best value/quality. They have a slightly different release mechanism than the Vise-Grip branded tools that improves the ergonomics of the tool significantly. They are (or were last time I checked) relabeled by some high end tool brands like Snap-on. For the most part, I consider them an inherently destructive but sometimes necessary tool that will mess up a fastener. However there are a wide variety of jaw styles (and removable covers) available that can mitigate this, depending on the task.
https://www.bahco.com/int_en/products/wrenches/adjustable-wr...
However, I prefer the Knipex pliers wrenches mentioned by other commenters. They are also useful for many other gripping, pressing and bending tasks that the traditional adjustables cannot do.
Edit: For vise grip type tools, Grip-On is the best value/quality. They have a slightly different release mechanism than the Vise-Grip branded tools that improves the ergonomics of the tool significantly. They are (or were last time I checked) relabeled by some high end tool brands like Snap-on. For the most part, I consider them an inherently destructive but sometimes necessary tool that will mess up a fastener. However there are a wide variety of jaw styles (and removable covers) available that can mitigate this, depending on the task.
I second the recommendation for Bahco. I bought one of their adjustable wrenches on the basis that it would last, and I have no regrets: it's an incredibly well made tool.
For other options, there is a youtube video comparing different adjustable wrenches for strength (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyOd05PUix4). The Bahco did indeed do well, although it was not the very best the tested.
For other options, there is a youtube video comparing different adjustable wrenches for strength (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyOd05PUix4). The Bahco did indeed do well, although it was not the very best the tested.
Whoa. I only knew of Bahco as a maker of saws and assorted woodworking tools. You just opened my eyes to the range of things they make. I'm going to have to get one of those if I don't go the Knipex route. Thank you!
They not only make adjustable wrenches, they literally invented them (at least their modern form):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjustable_spanner
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjustable_spanner
Adjustable wrenches exist for situations where you don't have the proper size on hand. They are not intended to be used for everything. But when you need one, few other tools will suffice.
A lot of people don't know that there is a correct direction to turn these wrenches (and Channel Locks, and pipe wrenches). Older Crescent models had an arrow engraved on the handle to show this. You turn the wrench with the smaller jaw leading into the turn. This helps prevent slipping by putting pressure on the mechanism, which makes it harder for the adjusting screw to move.
A lot of people don't know that there is a correct direction to turn these wrenches (and Channel Locks, and pipe wrenches). Older Crescent models had an arrow engraved on the handle to show this. You turn the wrench with the smaller jaw leading into the turn. This helps prevent slipping by putting pressure on the mechanism, which makes it harder for the adjusting screw to move.
> Adjustable wrenches exist for situations where you don't have the proper size on hand.
I would say convenience and use case are just as important. A crescent wrench is non marring unlike alligator jaws or vise grips. It's also perfectly fine for low torque applications. It isn't for torquing lug nuts.
I have a wonderful wrench and socket set in standard and metric measures. It's in a nice case on a shelf in my garage. My crescent wrenches are hanging 5 feet away on a pegboard.
I needed to loosen an RP-SMA connector the other day. What size is that nut? Do I want to break out my wrenches and fiddle? Nope, the nut is only just beyond finger tight so two crescent wrenches and 5 seconds to get it off.
I would say convenience and use case are just as important. A crescent wrench is non marring unlike alligator jaws or vise grips. It's also perfectly fine for low torque applications. It isn't for torquing lug nuts.
I have a wonderful wrench and socket set in standard and metric measures. It's in a nice case on a shelf in my garage. My crescent wrenches are hanging 5 feet away on a pegboard.
I needed to loosen an RP-SMA connector the other day. What size is that nut? Do I want to break out my wrenches and fiddle? Nope, the nut is only just beyond finger tight so two crescent wrenches and 5 seconds to get it off.
Any 5/16" wrench for loosening. For tightening, ideally the appropriate torque wrench for the particular connector (material & grade) should be used.
https://www.centricrf.com/torque-wrenches/sma-torque-wrenche...
Or other stores. RF connectors should be torqued to a specified torque listed on their data sheet. Improper torque can cause damage. Usually for equipment using SMA connectors this isn't a big deal (just replace the connector, they're cheap and the torque wrenches are expensive), but for the really high frequency stuff like 1.85mm connectors the connector itself is $70-300 so spending $100-400 on a torque wrench is reasonable.
https://www.centricrf.com/torque-wrenches/sma-torque-wrenche...
Or other stores. RF connectors should be torqued to a specified torque listed on their data sheet. Improper torque can cause damage. Usually for equipment using SMA connectors this isn't a big deal (just replace the connector, they're cheap and the torque wrenches are expensive), but for the really high frequency stuff like 1.85mm connectors the connector itself is $70-300 so spending $100-400 on a torque wrench is reasonable.
This was a $5 WiFi antenna I bought off Amazon for an ESP32-WROOM-32UE bolted through an enclosure, I'll stick with my crescent wrenches.
[deleted]
Knipex Pliers Wrench is what you're looking for. They end up squeezing hard, unlike a crescent wrench, and do not round off fasteners as easily.
> haven't yet run across an adjustable wrench that was worth a shit.
I found some truly excellent ones at hardware stores in Japan. For some reason they don't sell them elsewhere.
I found some truly excellent ones at hardware stores in Japan. For some reason they don't sell them elsewhere.
One of my treasured possessions is an adjustable wrench my father picked up while stationed in Japan. I'd give a lot to have an equivalent in a smaller size -- even the Spanish made Irega I bought a while back isn't the same standard.
Adjustable wrenches have their uses, but applying the most torque possible is not one of them. If you're limited to buying one type of wrench and you're dealing with small fasteners, you're better off with a set of combination wrenches. If I were starting over I'd look at the now-common ratcheting ones, but I haven't had a chance to try them.
For larger hex things, and for square things, adjustable wrenches work fine. They're much nicer on (hex) pipe fittings than pipe wrenches.
I find the "adjustable" moniker doesn't really create the best expectation of how to use them though, implying that you choose the right setting to do the job and then it behaves like a fixed wrench. Rather on every use, I back the jaws off slightly with the thumb screw, put on the piece, then tighten up while it's on the piece. The more torque I need to apply, the more deliberate I am about making sure the jaws are snug before doing so.
Vise grips are for when you would otherwise use pliers, and want them to latch.
For larger hex things, and for square things, adjustable wrenches work fine. They're much nicer on (hex) pipe fittings than pipe wrenches.
I find the "adjustable" moniker doesn't really create the best expectation of how to use them though, implying that you choose the right setting to do the job and then it behaves like a fixed wrench. Rather on every use, I back the jaws off slightly with the thumb screw, put on the piece, then tighten up while it's on the piece. The more torque I need to apply, the more deliberate I am about making sure the jaws are snug before doing so.
Vise grips are for when you would otherwise use pliers, and want them to latch.
Every tool has a place.
For something like common nuts and bolts - like you might find on a bike - I want one tool to do it all - similar to https://www.amazon.com.au/9-32mm-Adjustable-Spanner-Universa...
Or https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
One tool that'd be ok for a variety - but not infinite - of sizes to regular human torque levels.
But I wouldn't use it for plumbing.
For something like common nuts and bolts - like you might find on a bike - I want one tool to do it all - similar to https://www.amazon.com.au/9-32mm-Adjustable-Spanner-Universa...
Or https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
One tool that'd be ok for a variety - but not infinite - of sizes to regular human torque levels.
But I wouldn't use it for plumbing.
30 minutes, just used my vise-grips to grab and turn a plastic&felt chair leg end that was stuck on the bottom of the leg. Perfect tool when you need to grab it, pull it and don't care if it is damaged in the process.
Here is an adjustable wrench that's pretty good:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072LWP3Y3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...
Honestly I love this thing. It is precisely manufactured, turns smoothly, and grips well. I use it mostly for sink and plumbing repairs around the house, but I've also used it on bikes and other things. It's really nice for that because the small size means it fits in places that would otherwise be hard to manage.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072LWP3Y3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...
Honestly I love this thing. It is precisely manufactured, turns smoothly, and grips well. I use it mostly for sink and plumbing repairs around the house, but I've also used it on bikes and other things. It's really nice for that because the small size means it fits in places that would otherwise be hard to manage.
Amazon is heavily promoting a tool that (as near as I can figure out) is a combination adjustable wrench and vise-grips, thus offering you two options for destroying fastener heads in one convenient tool.
Vice-grip do make some less-bad versions specifically for not spinning/rounding off nuts, like this one: https://www.mcmaster.com/vise-grips/locking-pliers-for-round...
I (and apparently many others) came here to knipex plier wrenches. The have a spring-loaded indent that keeps the adjustment where you need it, tighten on the fastener in one direction, and open enough to act as a ratchet in the other direction. In certain cases they are actually less likely to round off a fastener than a non-adjustable wrench. This[1] video gives a good overview.
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGb4WF4e8YQ
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGb4WF4e8YQ
> I haven't yet run across an adjustable wrench that was worth a shit. Even old (notionally decent?) Crescent ones.
I hate them with a passion and have no much need as I've got pretty much tools of every sizes but... I like plier wrenches.
I've got many plier wrenches and even the cheap ones do nearly every single job I can think of better than an adjustable wrench.
I hate them with a passion and have no much need as I've got pretty much tools of every sizes but... I like plier wrenches.
I've got many plier wrenches and even the cheap ones do nearly every single job I can think of better than an adjustable wrench.
I feel like every crescent wrench I have tried wrecks fasteners. A good set of combo wrenches are so much nicer to work with.
Yeah, nothing beats having a full set of high quality combination wrenches.. For the often used sizes, I also keep ratchet versions because they're convenient.. But wrenches alone is no good, you need a good socket set too, lots of places you just can't go without.
ChannelLock makes good ones with tight tolerances, smooth adjustment and accurate measurements in metric and standard (one on each side). I often use them as a first attempt and if I need more torque I check the size they are set to when grabbing the correct combo wrench or socket.
How about a combo of the two, the locking crescent wrench?
https://youtu.be/WNTC91TKcMg
knipex makes a good one. And they’re the exception that proves the rule.
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
I wonder if you could have one with a device like a rock climbing cam that tightens the more force you put on it.
Water-pump pliers are adjustable and don't suffer from splay.
The wrench in the article reminds me of that class of products engineered to maximize sales, not utility.
I teach my children that dollar store products are all junk. But I still let them shop there because it's an inexpensive way for them to learn the lesson that there are businesses that have no scruples about selling junk products.
I wonder how disheartening it is to be an engineer who designs these products. To be honest, they're probably just happy to be making a paycheck just like many of us. I've worked plenty of jobs that I didn't believe in.
I teach my children that dollar store products are all junk. But I still let them shop there because it's an inexpensive way for them to learn the lesson that there are businesses that have no scruples about selling junk products.
I wonder how disheartening it is to be an engineer who designs these products. To be honest, they're probably just happy to be making a paycheck just like many of us. I've worked plenty of jobs that I didn't believe in.
This title was badly editorialized. Submitted title was "Beware of Bargin Bin Tools". You can see from the earlier comments here how badly that skewed the discussion in a generic direction that was dominated by the rewritten title. This is why HN has a rule excluding this type of title rewrite:
"Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize."
If you want to say what you think is important about an article, that's fine, but do it by adding a comment to the thread. Then your view will be on a level playing field with everyone else's: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
It's actually a good submission, but you need to use the original title so that can people can figure out for themselves how to assess the content and what they want to say about it.
"Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize."
If you want to say what you think is important about an article, that's fine, but do it by adding a comment to the thread. Then your view will be on a level playing field with everyone else's: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
It's actually a good submission, but you need to use the original title so that can people can figure out for themselves how to assess the content and what they want to say about it.
The article is talking about a tool made by Crescent which was the original brand name making adjustable wrenches. In fact traditionally a few decades ago any of these adjustable wrenches were called a crescent wrench no matter who the manufacturer was. Like Craftsmen tools another example of the decline of tool brands from quality to junk.
https://jamestowngazette.com/crescent-tool-company/
https://jamestowngazette.com/crescent-tool-company/
Looking more closely, the slider screw has a pitch of approximately 0.545"/rev and a diameter of 0.25", for a helix angle of 34°. This means that less than half of the slider force is actually used to turn the screw, undermining any force gain. That is, the jaw force is less than is applied to the slider due to the screw's inefficiency as over half of the applied force is lost pushing against the screw's supports.
Is that accurate that over half the force is lost? As the helix angle gets lower wouldn't more force be transferred to the screw instead of the supports? I'm no mechanical engineer but my gut says 45 degrees would be the point where forces are balanced between screw and support and as the helix angle decreased (to 34 degrees for example) more than half the force would be applied to the screw.
Is that accurate that over half the force is lost? As the helix angle gets lower wouldn't more force be transferred to the screw instead of the supports? I'm no mechanical engineer but my gut says 45 degrees would be the point where forces are balanced between screw and support and as the helix angle decreased (to 34 degrees for example) more than half the force would be applied to the screw.
Consider the friction coefficient between the two parts. If it slid perfectly, ie. both were made of greased teflon, then at 30 degrees half would be in the correct direction - sin30° = 0.5
However adding friction makes it much worse. Unlubricated steel on steel is really bad.
However adding friction makes it much worse. Unlubricated steel on steel is really bad.
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Here’s mine. It has a wheel on the side. So it needs two hands.
https://www.bellota.com/es-es/para-el-taller/herramienta-uni...
It’s still as solid as the day I bought it. All others I have seen grow loose with use.
https://www.bellota.com/es-es/para-el-taller/herramienta-uni...
It’s still as solid as the day I bought it. All others I have seen grow loose with use.
There was actually a revisiting of an earlier design in this space recently:
https://www.metmo.co.uk/products/metmo-grip
I funded on Kickstarter (to get one for myself), and then again on Indiegogo (to get one as a graduation gift for my son) --- it's an amazingly nice tool, and once broken in, incredibly smooth.
https://www.metmo.co.uk/products/metmo-grip
I funded on Kickstarter (to get one for myself), and then again on Indiegogo (to get one as a graduation gift for my son) --- it's an amazingly nice tool, and once broken in, incredibly smooth.
I’d wager the reason the the screw mechanism wasn’t designed to give a mechanical advantage is that it’s a part from a standard crescent wrench. The idea here was not to design a sliding lock mechanism, but to make a slide that can spin a regular crescent wrench.
Note that The crescent wrench already closes up linearly, so we’re just changing direction 90 degrees. There’s better ways to do that.
Note that The crescent wrench already closes up linearly, so we’re just changing direction 90 degrees. There’s better ways to do that.
Knippex "Pliers" are still far superior to this. They blew my mind when I first used them. I dont use normal wrenches at all anymore - the knippex just grip stuff so much more perfectly and with less chance of rounding and you can "ratchet" around the bolt even though they are open ended.
Same. I first saw them in the hands of a plumber doing some work at home. I bought a pair the same day. It's this kind of tool that just makes me happy when I have an occasion to use it.
If you are looking for an excellent ratchet that compliments the Knippex Pliers, take a look at Proxxon ratchet sets. They are a pleasure to work with and come in a nice metal case.
I was wonder what these were so had a look.
Found: in Australia we call them multigrips and I've got a few!
Found: in Australia we call them multigrips and I've got a few!
they mean these: https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
Nope - totally different. Those are known as Channel Locks over here. Watch a video of the knippex pliers in action - they are not the same at all!
there are many knipex pliers which is why the other poster is confused. I presume the ones you refer to are the "pliers wrench" that someone had linked to above:
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
Wera is even selling self adjusting wrenches, which tighten themselves when you turn them. The big drawback is that the adjustment range is quite small.
All adjustable wrenches have the inevitable problem that they are easier to break then their solid counterparts and have some flex in their construction.
All adjustable wrenches have the inevitable problem that they are easier to break then their solid counterparts and have some flex in their construction.
Don't beware of, just know your problem. You can and absolutely should buy bargain bin tools for emergency circumstances, or for rapid disassembly jobs, or in one-off situations, or simply as backups if your expensive tools are unavailable.
Adjustable wrenches are good in emergencies, and that's about it. Never use one if you don't have to.
I have found the Knipex adjustable pliers to be a much better alternative:
https://www.knipex.com/products/pipe-wrenches-and-water-pump...
IME they have their uses if you do a lot of mechanical stuff. The smaller ones don't work well because of the poor tolerances involved but the larger ones are indispensable for "field work" where they work just as well as large combination wrenches for most tasks and one wrench is easier to carry around than a dozen.
I use one for changing the blade on my table saw.
They also double as a hammer if used wrongly enough.
I use one for changing the blade on my table saw.
They also double as a hammer if used wrongly enough.
I've long subscribed to the philosophy that you should buy the cheapest tool you can find and use safely, use it until it wears out, breaks, or your skill surpasses the capability of the tool - and only then should you spend money on high quality tools. Too much money is thrown away in the name of "buy once, cry once" only to discover that you don't need the capabilities offered by the top of the line options.
I strongly disagree. Cheap tools are a pain to use, and break when you need them most, and perpetuate throw away culture. If a good tool is too expensive to own find a rental or buy used, otherwise buy high quality.
High quality is a joy to work with and will serve you a long time.
High quality is a joy to work with and will serve you a long time.
High quality tools are absolutely a joy! I love the high end tools that I get to use in my professional life as a mechanical engineer. (less frequently now that I am a manager, but you never get tired of using a well designed Festool, Bosch, or Wera product)
However,I don't need the same level of quality in the things I have at home. I've built, repaired, and otherwise tinkered away on countless projects over the years with things I found/bought on sale/picked up along the way with no issues. I'm not a professional [plumber, carpenter, electrician, mason, machinist, etc] and I don't need the same tools they have to get the job done safely.
There's nothing wrong with choosing to spend your personal money on high end tools. In general I find the attitude around tool ownership to be one of gate keeping though, and I'm more interested in getting started and discovering what I really need with less expensive tools than I am in spending my entire budget on high end equipment only to learn that I don't need specific expensive features after a few uses.
However,I don't need the same level of quality in the things I have at home. I've built, repaired, and otherwise tinkered away on countless projects over the years with things I found/bought on sale/picked up along the way with no issues. I'm not a professional [plumber, carpenter, electrician, mason, machinist, etc] and I don't need the same tools they have to get the job done safely.
There's nothing wrong with choosing to spend your personal money on high end tools. In general I find the attitude around tool ownership to be one of gate keeping though, and I'm more interested in getting started and discovering what I really need with less expensive tools than I am in spending my entire budget on high end equipment only to learn that I don't need specific expensive features after a few uses.
Some people are into creating things, and other people are into tools. As the saying goes, it's a poor craftsperson that blames their tools. But I also think it's a poor craftsperson who tries to improve by improving their tools.
I see it a lot with photography. Some talented photographers pull incredible images out of older digital cameras and lenses, and don't bother to get new cameras/lenses because the reality is that a new camera wouldn't make their images much better.
Other photographers lack that kind of creative skill but still spend their time buying better and better gear, talking about gear online, and taking pictures of test charts—all without improving their skill.
I see it a lot with photography. Some talented photographers pull incredible images out of older digital cameras and lenses, and don't bother to get new cameras/lenses because the reality is that a new camera wouldn't make their images much better.
Other photographers lack that kind of creative skill but still spend their time buying better and better gear, talking about gear online, and taking pictures of test charts—all without improving their skill.
I'd say it depends on the use case.
For example I own a cheap non branded wire stripper (an upgrade to using a knife) instead of the high quality 150€ self adjusting Knipex equivalent (which "only" makes life easier and saves time).
But with safety features I wouldn't budge (eg. saw and grinding tools). For example Bosch blue has anti kickback in certain angle grinders which detects jamming discs and stops the motor.
For example I own a cheap non branded wire stripper (an upgrade to using a knife) instead of the high quality 150€ self adjusting Knipex equivalent (which "only" makes life easier and saves time).
But with safety features I wouldn't budge (eg. saw and grinding tools). For example Bosch blue has anti kickback in certain angle grinders which detects jamming discs and stops the motor.
I've been burned repeatedly by your philosophy. It only seems to hold if you know exactly what you want. I've got closets littered with high quality things that I don't ever use anymore because I lost interest before I could ever appreciate its quality.
Not detracting from your point, but maybe sell them on Craigslist?
Selling them is a pain of its own. I would have preferred to have bought cheap and not have to worry about recuperating value.
I think people get it into their heads that they need to be a buy cheap or buy quality person entirely, and I think the most succinct point I could make is that it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Buy quality for the things where you know what you want and value the quality improvement, and buy cheap for the things that are new and unknown to you. You don't need a pro-quality snowboard before you decide that you like snowboarding.
I think people get it into their heads that they need to be a buy cheap or buy quality person entirely, and I think the most succinct point I could make is that it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Buy quality for the things where you know what you want and value the quality improvement, and buy cheap for the things that are new and unknown to you. You don't need a pro-quality snowboard before you decide that you like snowboarding.
Depends on kind of tool. A good (and probably expensive) tool will last you long, but sometimes those tools are more complicated to use because they are targeting professions. When it comes to an adjustable wrench - sure, buy an expensive one from a good brand. That makes sense because cheap and expensive only differ in quality and durability.
When it comes to complicated tools, probably start with something reasonable and cheap. That covers not just tools, but also appliances and other things: cheap coffee machines are put coffee/capsule in and press a button, expensive one would be very manual.
When it comes to complicated tools, probably start with something reasonable and cheap. That covers not just tools, but also appliances and other things: cheap coffee machines are put coffee/capsule in and press a button, expensive one would be very manual.
I think he means more towards 'buy the cheapest, but quality tool'
You don't want to use a dollar store screwdriver but at the same time you probably don't need a Wera.
I have a friend who has a fault of buying the best of everything, for example he bought a $300 Milwaukee cordless to hang some pictures on the wall, because "One day I might want to build a swingset". It's been 8 years and he never built that swingset.
You don't want to use a dollar store screwdriver but at the same time you probably don't need a Wera.
I have a friend who has a fault of buying the best of everything, for example he bought a $300 Milwaukee cordless to hang some pictures on the wall, because "One day I might want to build a swingset". It's been 8 years and he never built that swingset.
Sure, an unused $300 milwaukee cordless is a waste, definitely don't buy something like that before you need it. Especially since there's quite a few choices available.
However a 6 piece Wera screwdriver set is $30-35 and easily to justify in any apartment or home and should last dramatically longer than a dollar screw screwdriver and MUCH less likely to cause damage to whatever you are working on. Even building a piece of Ikea furniture and the most minor of repairs (light switches, door hinges, loose chairs, etc) would justify the wera set.
Much better to buy something decent set for $35 than might last a lifetime of light use than the nearly disposable dollar store stuff. Even a small apartment can justify a handful of screwdrivers and allens.
However a 6 piece Wera screwdriver set is $30-35 and easily to justify in any apartment or home and should last dramatically longer than a dollar screw screwdriver and MUCH less likely to cause damage to whatever you are working on. Even building a piece of Ikea furniture and the most minor of repairs (light switches, door hinges, loose chairs, etc) would justify the wera set.
Much better to buy something decent set for $35 than might last a lifetime of light use than the nearly disposable dollar store stuff. Even a small apartment can justify a handful of screwdrivers and allens.
Indeed. I hate cheap tools, and they can damage not just themselves, but whatever you are working on.
Last thing I want to do is round an allen, strip a screw, or round a nut because a tool can't be bothered to be the right shape and be made out of the right materials to apply whatever torque/pressure is needed.
Good tools easily last decades, and I have some from my dad. Cheap tools often last a hard use or two, and sometimes less than a single hard use.
Last thing I want to do is round an allen, strip a screw, or round a nut because a tool can't be bothered to be the right shape and be made out of the right materials to apply whatever torque/pressure is needed.
Good tools easily last decades, and I have some from my dad. Cheap tools often last a hard use or two, and sometimes less than a single hard use.
I follow this sentiment. Buy nice or buy twice
For me it's more of a pareto thing. 90% of the time, the Harbor Freight tool is gonna do the job. Even if I end up needing to buy a more expensive tool 10% of the time, I'm still coming out ahead. YMMV depending on how often you need to use various tools or if you're buying jack stands (or anything else where failure could lead to death/injury)
However I got a harbor freight pneumatic nail gun, oiled it before use, and every night before putting it away. It almost lasted the building of an 80 foot fence, almost.
Funny enough I did buy some jack stands that looked good, and we recalled for catastrophic failures: https://images.harborfreight.com/hftweb/recalls/Jack-Stand-R...
If you need a single or low use unpowered tool I consider harbor freight. Generally anything powered, which is more expensive, I want to keep longer, and has a higher chance of damaging itself, what you are working on, or you I buy something name brand.
The harbor freight rolling tool chests are quite nice, and features on various tool/garage forums as a great deal.
Funny enough I did buy some jack stands that looked good, and we recalled for catastrophic failures: https://images.harborfreight.com/hftweb/recalls/Jack-Stand-R...
If you need a single or low use unpowered tool I consider harbor freight. Generally anything powered, which is more expensive, I want to keep longer, and has a higher chance of damaging itself, what you are working on, or you I buy something name brand.
The harbor freight rolling tool chests are quite nice, and features on various tool/garage forums as a great deal.
From the recall notice:
...a potential, while under load and with a shift in weight, for the pawl to disengage from the extension lifting post, allowing the stand to drop suddenly.
Having just run to the garage to make sure that my Harbor Freight jack stands aren't in that recall, it occurred to me, "how do you fuck up jack stands?" If there ever was a patent, it had to have run out before my grandfather was born; just go copy a high-quality model, sorted. Even if one doesn't just plain copy the design, I don't think you'd have to be much of an engineer to come up with something that won't collapse on itself under load. I mean, there's three pieces to the whole damned thing, and the design seems to allow a lot of slop on tolerances. Yet the folks at Pittsburgh Jack Stands(tm) seemed to think, "but we could save another nickel if we made the tolerances just a bit larger."
Anyway, that's why I always slide some sort of backup under the vehicle no matter the quality of the jack stand.
...a potential, while under load and with a shift in weight, for the pawl to disengage from the extension lifting post, allowing the stand to drop suddenly.
Having just run to the garage to make sure that my Harbor Freight jack stands aren't in that recall, it occurred to me, "how do you fuck up jack stands?" If there ever was a patent, it had to have run out before my grandfather was born; just go copy a high-quality model, sorted. Even if one doesn't just plain copy the design, I don't think you'd have to be much of an engineer to come up with something that won't collapse on itself under load. I mean, there's three pieces to the whole damned thing, and the design seems to allow a lot of slop on tolerances. Yet the folks at Pittsburgh Jack Stands(tm) seemed to think, "but we could save another nickel if we made the tolerances just a bit larger."
Anyway, that's why I always slide some sort of backup under the vehicle no matter the quality of the jack stand.
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> ..you should buy the cheapest tool you can find and use safely, use it until it wears out, breaks, or your skill surpasses the capability of the tool..
I wholeheartedly agree with this view, with one caveat. You shouldn't cheap out on certain specialty tools where failure can pose a risk of injury or damage, a suspension spring compressor is my usual example. Fortunately, purchasing an expensive one-off tool isn't your only option! They're often available for rent from local auto parts stores, to keep with my example.
But yeah, besides that caveat, you'll often be better served by going with a reasonably priced tool. If you use it enough to wear it out, or break it, kudos! Time to upgrade.
I wholeheartedly agree with this view, with one caveat. You shouldn't cheap out on certain specialty tools where failure can pose a risk of injury or damage, a suspension spring compressor is my usual example. Fortunately, purchasing an expensive one-off tool isn't your only option! They're often available for rent from local auto parts stores, to keep with my example.
But yeah, besides that caveat, you'll often be better served by going with a reasonably priced tool. If you use it enough to wear it out, or break it, kudos! Time to upgrade.
> I've long subscribed to the philosophy that you should buy the cheapest tool you can find and use safely, use it until it wears out, breaks, or your skill surpasses the capability of the tool - and only then should you spend money on high quality tools.
Overall, it's not a bad philosophy. But I can think of a couple of complications here:
- For battery-operated tools, standardizing on one system means you can buy a handful of pricy batteries and share them among many tools. Batteries wear out, and eventually need repeated replacement. And only needing to replace, say, 3 batteries from a single brand is convenient.
- A lot of times, it's possible to buy medium-quality tool sets (say, hex wrenches) for less than $100. I'm literally going to use many of them as long as I live. Why not spend $70 and get something halfway decent, instead of the $30 junk?
- If you're doing a big project (refinishing kitchen cabinets, building a deck, etc), that can easily justify spending a few hundred dollars on a quality key tool. A quality drill/hammer driver pair is game changing, for example. Saves countless hours compared to my old gear.
I had Craftsman power tools until battery replacements were only available from fly-by-night companies and a couple of the tools started failing (after 20 years). I wound up buying a couple of DeWalt tools on sale and they've been rock-solid. So I added a couple more as needed. I tried a Ryobi line trimmer a few years ago, and the battery system failed within two weeks. So I took it back and paid $50 extra for a DeWalt version that has run flawlessly. I could save some money by buying less-used tools from a second, cheaper brand. But that would double my battery replacement costs over the next 20 years, and I'd need to do more research for each purchase.
So sometimes a set of "79 auto tools for one low price!" is a good move. And sometimes, mid-to-high end homeowner gear or even a contractor tool is worth the money.
Overall, it's not a bad philosophy. But I can think of a couple of complications here:
- For battery-operated tools, standardizing on one system means you can buy a handful of pricy batteries and share them among many tools. Batteries wear out, and eventually need repeated replacement. And only needing to replace, say, 3 batteries from a single brand is convenient.
- A lot of times, it's possible to buy medium-quality tool sets (say, hex wrenches) for less than $100. I'm literally going to use many of them as long as I live. Why not spend $70 and get something halfway decent, instead of the $30 junk?
- If you're doing a big project (refinishing kitchen cabinets, building a deck, etc), that can easily justify spending a few hundred dollars on a quality key tool. A quality drill/hammer driver pair is game changing, for example. Saves countless hours compared to my old gear.
I had Craftsman power tools until battery replacements were only available from fly-by-night companies and a couple of the tools started failing (after 20 years). I wound up buying a couple of DeWalt tools on sale and they've been rock-solid. So I added a couple more as needed. I tried a Ryobi line trimmer a few years ago, and the battery system failed within two weeks. So I took it back and paid $50 extra for a DeWalt version that has run flawlessly. I could save some money by buying less-used tools from a second, cheaper brand. But that would double my battery replacement costs over the next 20 years, and I'd need to do more research for each purchase.
So sometimes a set of "79 auto tools for one low price!" is a good move. And sometimes, mid-to-high end homeowner gear or even a contractor tool is worth the money.
'I had Craftsman power tools until battery replacements were only available from fly-by-night companies and a couple of the tools started failing (after 20 years). I wound up buying a couple of DeWalt tools on sale and they've been rock-solid. So I added a couple more as needed.'
I think we are in complete agreement! After 20 years of use are are more than qualified to know what you need and go get it regardless of the price point!
I think we are in complete agreement! After 20 years of use are are more than qualified to know what you need and go get it regardless of the price point!
I agree with your general position.
here's where things get really interesting , who really makes these tools in the first place?
https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
I find that "tools" develop the same sort of things we see in tech (brand love like this endless apple vs android thing).
but when you look at the chart of who actually makes these things.. it sort of falls apart.
Like "rigid", "Milwaukee" and the terrible Cryobi are all TTI?
Obviously built to different specs/price points but it is interesting to see one "brand" targeting all markets?
here's where things get really interesting , who really makes these tools in the first place?
https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
I find that "tools" develop the same sort of things we see in tech (brand love like this endless apple vs android thing).
but when you look at the chart of who actually makes these things.. it sort of falls apart.
Like "rigid", "Milwaukee" and the terrible Cryobi are all TTI?
Obviously built to different specs/price points but it is interesting to see one "brand" targeting all markets?
Agreed. Buy the cheap one first. If you use it enough to break it or outgrow it, buy the best one you can then afford. So many of my tools I need just a few times a year. The harbor freight model is all I need.
I guess... what you're saying is not bad advice.
Maybe instead, aim to buy tools as cheaply as you can the first time.
I think it's best to just get your tools as gifts, or from garage sales.
But there are a lot of tools that are cheap, feel cheap, and will break on you.
Avoid using cheaply made tools -- this is also good advice.
A neighbor bought a table saw with really flimsy legs... and the whole things just shook when you put boards through it. Look, you don't want to use a table saw like that. For... all the common sense reasons.
Plus, with gifts at least, it's nice knowing my grandfather used the same socket set I have now. Emotionally-nice, and quality-nice... I know they aren't going to break on me since they didn't break on him.
Maybe instead, aim to buy tools as cheaply as you can the first time.
I think it's best to just get your tools as gifts, or from garage sales.
But there are a lot of tools that are cheap, feel cheap, and will break on you.
Avoid using cheaply made tools -- this is also good advice.
A neighbor bought a table saw with really flimsy legs... and the whole things just shook when you put boards through it. Look, you don't want to use a table saw like that. For... all the common sense reasons.
Plus, with gifts at least, it's nice knowing my grandfather used the same socket set I have now. Emotionally-nice, and quality-nice... I know they aren't going to break on me since they didn't break on him.
> Look, you don't want to use a table saw like that. For... all the common sense reasons.
For example, you might have an increased risk of wood kickback, very nearly lose a leg, and spend years in physical therapy trying to replace the muscle mass that died. (I knew a guy.) Or you might bleed out.
Seriously, a few extra safety features on a table saw can make the difference between life and death. Assuming you don't just disable them.
(I have a cheapish table saw, but one that isn't complete garbage. I treat it with about the same caution I'd treat unexploded ordnance from World War II.)
For example, you might have an increased risk of wood kickback, very nearly lose a leg, and spend years in physical therapy trying to replace the muscle mass that died. (I knew a guy.) Or you might bleed out.
Seriously, a few extra safety features on a table saw can make the difference between life and death. Assuming you don't just disable them.
(I have a cheapish table saw, but one that isn't complete garbage. I treat it with about the same caution I'd treat unexploded ordnance from World War II.)
> I have a cheapish table saw, but one that isn't complete garbage. I treat it with about the same caution I'd treat unexploded ordnance from World War II.
For good reason! https://duckduckgo.com/?q=table+saw+accident&t=ffab&iar=imag...
For good reason! https://duckduckgo.com/?q=table+saw+accident&t=ffab&iar=imag...
>I've long subscribed to the philosophy that you should buy the cheapest tool you can find and use safely, use it until it wears out, breaks, or your skill surpasses the capability of the tool
For a sufficiently cheap tool that might be instantaneously and the difference can be very hard to tell.
I think that you should spend money according to what you are comfortable with and what you actually have a use for.
>Too much money is thrown away in the name of "buy once, cry once" only to discover that you don't need the capabilities offered by the top of the line options.
I would say too many products are made and thrown away because people discovered that they were too badly made to use them.
For a sufficiently cheap tool that might be instantaneously and the difference can be very hard to tell.
I think that you should spend money according to what you are comfortable with and what you actually have a use for.
>Too much money is thrown away in the name of "buy once, cry once" only to discover that you don't need the capabilities offered by the top of the line options.
I would say too many products are made and thrown away because people discovered that they were too badly made to use them.
True about some things, but there is a segment of tools where the first or second time you use it ever will be "this tool is garbage" and then you have to buy another one.
It depends on the tool. Personally, I have a ton of Rigid tools. They all work really well. I replace them with Rigid if they break, actually, because my batteries work with Rigid.
But, my table saw is a good table saw, because I want it to be safe, I want it to cut straight, and I want to enjoy using it.
My bandsaw is a good bandsaw b/c I need something that can cut thicker wood sometimes and don't want to deal with blades breaking and popping off a cheap saw.
It depends on the tool. Personally, I have a ton of Rigid tools. They all work really well. I replace them with Rigid if they break, actually, because my batteries work with Rigid.
But, my table saw is a good table saw, because I want it to be safe, I want it to cut straight, and I want to enjoy using it.
My bandsaw is a good bandsaw b/c I need something that can cut thicker wood sometimes and don't want to deal with blades breaking and popping off a cheap saw.
I recently inherited a much nicer table saw than the second hand Harbor Freight one I had before, and it was quite a revelation how much easier it was to get good results with it and how much safer it feels to use. I'd definitely agree on that one.
The other category where I like to spend more is tools I hate to use. Some things I have specifically for jobs that suck and anything that makes those jobs easier is worth it in my mind. I have a nice drain snake, and the most expensive toilet plunger I could find for this reason.
The other category where I like to spend more is tools I hate to use. Some things I have specifically for jobs that suck and anything that makes those jobs easier is worth it in my mind. I have a nice drain snake, and the most expensive toilet plunger I could find for this reason.
A good table saw basically does the project for you, it is amazing.
Until you use a cheap tool on your expensive bike, the allowance on the tool is poor and strips a screw, which can only be custom ordered direct from the manufacturer with a 2 month lead time, leaving your half-fixed bike completely useless.
This happened to me when bleeding my hydraulic brakes - the screw was a 2.5mm Allen and my keys were slightly smaller than 2.5 from being rounded over a short period of time. That rounded the screw, and my choice was to leave my brakes without fluid.. or drill out the screw!
This happened to me when bleeding my hydraulic brakes - the screw was a 2.5mm Allen and my keys were slightly smaller than 2.5 from being rounded over a short period of time. That rounded the screw, and my choice was to leave my brakes without fluid.. or drill out the screw!
Allen fasteners are bad, and the people who designed them should feel bad. Even relatively high quality allen wrenches are prone to stripping fasteners. The best option on the market is the MAC RBRT series[1]
1 - https://www.mactools.com/products/sbdb77rbrt
1 - https://www.mactools.com/products/sbdb77rbrt
For the not-so-curious: $180
I keep a handful of left-handed drill bits on hand for drilling out screws. You can get them cheaply from mcmaster. They work much better than "Easy-outs" and similar tools, and 90% of the time the fastener backs out well before you reach the point where you have to hope you're not damaging anything but the screw.
This has been my mantra:
"There have been 3 great joys in my life: sex, food and music. Of these music has proved the most reliable."
but your comment makes me want to revise it:
"There have been 4 great joys in my life: sex, food, music and good tools, and of these, music and good tools have competed fairly to be the most reliable."
"There have been 3 great joys in my life: sex, food and music. Of these music has proved the most reliable."
but your comment makes me want to revise it:
"There have been 4 great joys in my life: sex, food, music and good tools, and of these, music and good tools have competed fairly to be the most reliable."
I have several Estwing hand tools that never fail to delight me when using them.
Agreed!
If you are a trade professional and regularly have tools crap out on you, that's one thing. But my tools are more likely to need replacing purely out of obsolescence than anything else. And having an overbuilt tool collecting dust is just as much a waste as throwing one away occasionally.
If you are a trade professional and regularly have tools crap out on you, that's one thing. But my tools are more likely to need replacing purely out of obsolescence than anything else. And having an overbuilt tool collecting dust is just as much a waste as throwing one away occasionally.
> "And having an overbuilt tool collecting dust is just as much a waste as throwing one away occasionally."
Is it?
Is it?
Yes, because a good amount of the cost of that pro level tool is R&D and support for its use by pros. By using it once and shelving it you've paid for more engineering than you need. Case in point, when I needed to drill two holes in concrete block I opted for the cheapest $20 aliexpress carbide hole saw I could find rather than the professional diamond tipped version costing hundreds. In the unlikely event that I'll need to do the same job again I could easily bang out a few more cuts with what I have or order another cheap one and still be ahead.
I think this thread is conflating wasted money with wasted materials. Buying a nice tool once and underutilizing it wastes money. Buying cheap tools multiple times wastes materials.
That underused professional tool is as much a waste as the underused cheap one, maybe more considering the upgrade in materials. And between cost and materials, it's obvious which is the most on the mind of the consumer. The aliexpress tool is already rusting sitting on the shelf and I don't care. If I had followed "the mantra" and spent hundreds I'd feel like a sucker each time I opened my tool box.
and energy. and creates waste.
Nice tools are nice because they use more resources.
A Milwaukee drill is physically heavier than a Ryobi of the same size - purely because of all of the upgraded components to make it more durable/longer-lasting.
But if you are only touching 5% of the expected lifespan of your tool, no need to have one that's over-engineered.
A Milwaukee drill is physically heavier than a Ryobi of the same size - purely because of all of the upgraded components to make it more durable/longer-lasting.
But if you are only touching 5% of the expected lifespan of your tool, no need to have one that's over-engineered.
Well, you are ignoring several things:
1. is the milwaukee doubly-engineered compared to the ryobi? because if you end up with 2 ryobis, that's twice the material/energy input of the one milwaukee
2. you seem to be ignoring the possibility that the milwaukee is "so" over-engineered that you pass it on to someone else, greatly extending its effective lifetime.
1. is the milwaukee doubly-engineered compared to the ryobi? because if you end up with 2 ryobis, that's twice the material/energy input of the one milwaukee
2. you seem to be ignoring the possibility that the milwaukee is "so" over-engineered that you pass it on to someone else, greatly extending its effective lifetime.
Again, from personal experience I have yet to ever get rid of a tool because it failed on me. The only reason I have ever lost a tool was through theft, the battery/charger/replaceable component was no longer supported, or the tool was too unsafe to use.
If I was a professional or ran a tool rental business I would 100% agree. But I wouldn't buy a pickup track no matter how durable if all I need it to do is grab groceries. It's better to get a tool engineered for the level of work expected.
If I was a professional or ran a tool rental business I would 100% agree. But I wouldn't buy a pickup track no matter how durable if all I need it to do is grab groceries. It's better to get a tool engineered for the level of work expected.
for the typical level of work expected, or (as most Americans do with their vehicles) the "max" level of work expected?
There are plumbing tools I will never buy because I'm not a professional plumber. But you can be sure that the plumbing tools that I do own are top of the line for the tasks that they can accomplish.
There are plumbing tools I will never buy because I'm not a professional plumber. But you can be sure that the plumbing tools that I do own are top of the line for the tasks that they can accomplish.
What is the difference between "too unsafe to use" and "failed on me"?
Well, the one I am thinking of is an old-school all-metal belt sander that my grandfather gave to me.
The thing is an heirloom and may very well last forever, but basically has an unacceptable lack of modern safety features at this point. No trips, no guards, horrible ergonomics, weighs a ton, and has no grounding (keep in mind it's all metal). It also takes non-standard belts and I may or may not have cut my hand open twice just trying to change them.
So while I can understand the appeal of buying a tool that lasts forever, what are the odds you will actually want to use it forever?
The thing is an heirloom and may very well last forever, but basically has an unacceptable lack of modern safety features at this point. No trips, no guards, horrible ergonomics, weighs a ton, and has no grounding (keep in mind it's all metal). It also takes non-standard belts and I may or may not have cut my hand open twice just trying to change them.
So while I can understand the appeal of buying a tool that lasts forever, what are the odds you will actually want to use it forever?
Power tools: yes.
Non-power tools: not so much. My grandfather-in-law's thread cutters and pipe wrenches are every bit at the level of whatever I could buy today.
Non-power tools: not so much. My grandfather-in-law's thread cutters and pipe wrenches are every bit at the level of whatever I could buy today.
Ha, good example. I thought you meant unsafe from wearing out.
I second this question.
If nothing else, there are various kinds of wastefulness: money, pollution during manufacture / delivery, landfill, opportunity costs, etc.
If nothing else, there are various kinds of wastefulness: money, pollution during manufacture / delivery, landfill, opportunity costs, etc.
There is also a safety concern with overly cheap tools.
For an example, the adjustable wrench in this article. What happens when you apply a lot of force on a stubborn nut? If the wrench experiences rapid unscheduled disassembly, you now have broken pieces flying in random directions.
In the US, the thing that most prevents this from being a problem is the threat of liability lawsuits. That doesn't apply to a tool made by a small company in China and sold by a fly-by-night outfit on Amazon's marketplace. I'm guessing Amazon is unknowingly the liable party here, but I'm not a lawyer.
For an example, the adjustable wrench in this article. What happens when you apply a lot of force on a stubborn nut? If the wrench experiences rapid unscheduled disassembly, you now have broken pieces flying in random directions.
In the US, the thing that most prevents this from being a problem is the threat of liability lawsuits. That doesn't apply to a tool made by a small company in China and sold by a fly-by-night outfit on Amazon's marketplace. I'm guessing Amazon is unknowingly the liable party here, but I'm not a lawyer.
What's going to happen is that the nut will round over, because there's little in this design to prevent the jaw back-driving the helix. Having used a lot of adjustable wrenches, and rounded over quite a few bolts, now I keep sets of open-end wrenches in reach on the toolbench and for adjustables I carry exclusively Knipex Pliers Wrenches, which are awesome tools. There's no way you're breaking the casting of the wrench without a big cheater bar, which I admit to having used...while wearing safety glasses.
Knipex are awesome, a good example of quality resulting in a tool that lasts much longer than the cheap tools and causing much less damage to the nuts you are working on.
Biggest worry would be smashing your knuckles on something when it gives up not the thing exploding.
> I've long subscribed to the philosophy that you should buy the cheapest tool you can find and use safely [...] Too much money is thrown away in the name of "buy once, cry once" only to discover that you don't need the capabilities offered by the top of the line options.
How about something in between these two extremes? You don't need to go "top of the line", but you can save yourself a lot of frustration if you spend a little more than the absolute minimum...
How about something in between these two extremes? You don't need to go "top of the line", but you can save yourself a lot of frustration if you spend a little more than the absolute minimum...
I have two exception for the buy it cheap rule. I first look for a high quality option being sold used. Sometimes you can get the better option for cheaper. This is of course only worth the time on more expensive stuff.
Then, I also have started getting the one step up from the cheapest option. A lot of times that seems to be a better buy these days.
Then, I also have started getting the one step up from the cheapest option. A lot of times that seems to be a better buy these days.
I mostly follow this, with the additional criteria of how often the tool will be used affecting the level of quality of my initial purchase.
“Buy once, cry once” is basically the opposite of your philosophy, and my personal philosophy lies somewhere in the middle.
“Buy once, cry once” is basically the opposite of your philosophy, and my personal philosophy lies somewhere in the middle.
I follow this for things I truly will need occasionally, like most specialized car repair tools. But my exceptions are things I know I will use regularly. In addition to not replacing things as they wear out, my reasoning is that it's nice to have a set of each type of tool, with a storage case instead of ending up with a large mix of tools. Of course, someone else might have a different list of regularly used tools and some of the following list is from trial and error, I didn't get all of these right the first time.
- Screwdrivers: I have 2 Wera sets with many bits (small and large). They come with nice fabric/velcro carrying cases that are perfect for throwing in a bag, car, or drawer. High quality and the packaging is worth it compared to something loose or in a plastic case. I also have one full set of non-configurable Vessel screwdrivers that stays in my work area. They are a wooden composite, feel professional but are not much more than crafstman prices.[2]
- Wire strippers, side cutters, adjustable wrenches, pliers, etc: These really depend on material properties and tight tolerance, and it's worth buying quality. I like Knipex and engineer brands.
- Sockets and non-adjustable wrenches: These tend to be sold in large sets at sale prices and at various qualities. Unless you're a mechanic you can probably go into any hardware store, do a quick google search for complaints, and buy the cheapest set of sockets and wrenches. Don't pay for "200 pieces" including crappy little 1/4" bits and crappy screwdrivers in a giant blow-molded case that will annoy you later. Bonus points if you can find a small, nice case filled with actually useful sizes (probably <18mm and/or 3/4").
- Ratcheting screwdrivers: don't buy one unless you really find you need one for some reason. If you do buy one, it will either be useless or expensive.
- Drill bits: buy house brand from an industrial supply shop or mcmaster. Make sure it's easy and cheap to replace individual sizes.
- Battery-powered tools: Pick something like DeWalt, Bosch, Milwaukee or Hitachi/Hikoki[2,3] (the name of this one varies wildly with region) with a full range of tools and good reputation
- Soldering iron: You probably don't need more power than a pinecil which is usb-c and super-portable.[4] Plus it's got RISC-V cred. It's so convenient to unplug my laptop for 30 minutes and plug this in, or plug into a usb-c battery. For benchtop, a "Hakko clone" that takes abundant and great TS12 tips is good. To be honest I never touch my clone or my much more expensive but heavy actual Hakko soldering station since I got the pinecil. Both pinecil and the clone similar price to a piece of crap with poor temperature control from the hardware store.
[1]https://www.vesseltoolsusa.com/product/screwdriver/detail/VT...
[2]I chose Hikoki because I move around and it's available globally, and because it has excellent but pretty inexpensive vacuum cleaners that use the same batteries as the power tools.
[3]https://www.powertoolworld.co.uk/hikoki-r36daw4z-36v-cordles...
[4]https://pine64.com/product/pinecil-smart-mini-portable-solde...
- Screwdrivers: I have 2 Wera sets with many bits (small and large). They come with nice fabric/velcro carrying cases that are perfect for throwing in a bag, car, or drawer. High quality and the packaging is worth it compared to something loose or in a plastic case. I also have one full set of non-configurable Vessel screwdrivers that stays in my work area. They are a wooden composite, feel professional but are not much more than crafstman prices.[2]
- Wire strippers, side cutters, adjustable wrenches, pliers, etc: These really depend on material properties and tight tolerance, and it's worth buying quality. I like Knipex and engineer brands.
- Sockets and non-adjustable wrenches: These tend to be sold in large sets at sale prices and at various qualities. Unless you're a mechanic you can probably go into any hardware store, do a quick google search for complaints, and buy the cheapest set of sockets and wrenches. Don't pay for "200 pieces" including crappy little 1/4" bits and crappy screwdrivers in a giant blow-molded case that will annoy you later. Bonus points if you can find a small, nice case filled with actually useful sizes (probably <18mm and/or 3/4").
- Ratcheting screwdrivers: don't buy one unless you really find you need one for some reason. If you do buy one, it will either be useless or expensive.
- Drill bits: buy house brand from an industrial supply shop or mcmaster. Make sure it's easy and cheap to replace individual sizes.
- Battery-powered tools: Pick something like DeWalt, Bosch, Milwaukee or Hitachi/Hikoki[2,3] (the name of this one varies wildly with region) with a full range of tools and good reputation
- Soldering iron: You probably don't need more power than a pinecil which is usb-c and super-portable.[4] Plus it's got RISC-V cred. It's so convenient to unplug my laptop for 30 minutes and plug this in, or plug into a usb-c battery. For benchtop, a "Hakko clone" that takes abundant and great TS12 tips is good. To be honest I never touch my clone or my much more expensive but heavy actual Hakko soldering station since I got the pinecil. Both pinecil and the clone similar price to a piece of crap with poor temperature control from the hardware store.
[1]https://www.vesseltoolsusa.com/product/screwdriver/detail/VT...
[2]I chose Hikoki because I move around and it's available globally, and because it has excellent but pretty inexpensive vacuum cleaners that use the same batteries as the power tools.
[3]https://www.powertoolworld.co.uk/hikoki-r36daw4z-36v-cordles...
[4]https://pine64.com/product/pinecil-smart-mini-portable-solde...
And yet...
The free tools that come included with that 3D printer you just bought will slip and ruin at least one of the hex nuts holding the FEP to the vat and you will have to spend nearly $100 for a new vat when you could have instead spent $45 on a set of Wera hex tools, not trashed the hex screw, and have a damn nice set of hex tools forever. (And your bike will thank you as well.)
The free tools that come included with that 3D printer you just bought will slip and ruin at least one of the hex nuts holding the FEP to the vat and you will have to spend nearly $100 for a new vat when you could have instead spent $45 on a set of Wera hex tools, not trashed the hex screw, and have a damn nice set of hex tools forever. (And your bike will thank you as well.)
Where exactly did OP advocate for using free tools that come included with your new [3D Printer / Furniture / etc]?
Also, anecdotally after 30+ years of using the free tools that come included with [whatever], I have never once ruined any of the hardware. The saying goes that a poor craftsman blames his tools, and that seems apt here.
Also, anecdotally after 30+ years of using the free tools that come included with [whatever], I have never once ruined any of the hardware. The saying goes that a poor craftsman blames his tools, and that seems apt here.
Poorly designed, poorly manufactured, barely works in use and rounds the nuts you use it on so that subsequent attempts will be harder even with better tools.
It feels like there's been a strong Satanic / nihilistic philosophy at work among the hand tool industry for a while now. Started somewhere around the time period when the movie "Rambo" caused a fad for crappy "survival knives."
It feels like there's been a strong Satanic / nihilistic philosophy at work among the hand tool industry for a while now. Started somewhere around the time period when the movie "Rambo" caused a fad for crappy "survival knives."
It’s a general shift economy wise from the post WW2/wartime ‘build it simple, build it tough’ to optimizing to cheaper and cheaper price points (while maximizing profit) while ‘still works’.
Part of it I think is that most tool buyers now (statistically) are urban/suburban homeowners or renters which are not going to use it much, and are often not even capable of wearing out the old style tools. (And are not the proverbial 500 lb gorilla).
Industrial tools are still quite sturdy. They’re also far more expensive than any normal homeowner would (or should) ever consider.
It’s the market delivering what people will pay for, not what people say they want.
Part of it I think is that most tool buyers now (statistically) are urban/suburban homeowners or renters which are not going to use it much, and are often not even capable of wearing out the old style tools. (And are not the proverbial 500 lb gorilla).
Industrial tools are still quite sturdy. They’re also far more expensive than any normal homeowner would (or should) ever consider.
It’s the market delivering what people will pay for, not what people say they want.
I think we are in a death spiral:
10 Some people buy cheap and/or gimmicky crap
20 This is observed by the industry so even some name brands (like Crescent) make cheap and/or gimmicky crap
30 People notice that even name-brands are making crap, so switch from shopping on brand to shopping on price
40 GOTO 10
10 Some people buy cheap and/or gimmicky crap
20 This is observed by the industry so even some name brands (like Crescent) make cheap and/or gimmicky crap
30 People notice that even name-brands are making crap, so switch from shopping on brand to shopping on price
40 GOTO 10
This diseases has infected almost anything. Even many expensive product I see have obvious cut corners and great effort seems to have gone into making it connect to an app, which nobody in their right mind would want to use.
The sever decline in general product quality, together with an increase in unneeded complexity, is absolutely awful. You can go on amazon right now and for every product imaginable you can find many which are essentially just designed to be thrown into the trash in a couple of years, when with some actual effort the same thing could be made to last far longer.
It is easy to blame the buyers who "just cares about the cost", but I am not sure that tells the entire story. Surely there is a significant market segment of people willing to buy actual high quality products.
The sever decline in general product quality, together with an increase in unneeded complexity, is absolutely awful. You can go on amazon right now and for every product imaginable you can find many which are essentially just designed to be thrown into the trash in a couple of years, when with some actual effort the same thing could be made to last far longer.
It is easy to blame the buyers who "just cares about the cost", but I am not sure that tells the entire story. Surely there is a significant market segment of people willing to buy actual high quality products.
The bargain bin is fine, you just need to know what you're buying, and most people have no idea. For the engineering types here, you just need to remember one thing -- complexity scales fast. A bargain bin cast single piece wrench has no moving parts and only one failure point, the accuracy of that cast. If the price is low, its probably worth grabbing.
The bargain bin table saw on the other hand has multiple dimensions of accuracy, many joints that have to line up, many engineered materials with various degrees of quality (polycarbonate? ABS? cast aluminum?) along multiple interference angles. Not a good idea to throw that $129 special in your cart.
Remember that accuracy isn't cheap. Quality tool steel, dies, machining, QA -- it all costs money and is reflected in that price you're paying. Adjustable wrenches as show in the article are notorious for this problem. Backlash is one of those things that your average consumer doesn't think about. The engineer can do some quick thinking when shopping, "can I really manufacture XYZ part at scale and sell it (at retail!) for $1.00 and expect any degree of accuracy in that worm gear, on which this part relies on entirely for its usefulness?"
The bargain bin table saw on the other hand has multiple dimensions of accuracy, many joints that have to line up, many engineered materials with various degrees of quality (polycarbonate? ABS? cast aluminum?) along multiple interference angles. Not a good idea to throw that $129 special in your cart.
Remember that accuracy isn't cheap. Quality tool steel, dies, machining, QA -- it all costs money and is reflected in that price you're paying. Adjustable wrenches as show in the article are notorious for this problem. Backlash is one of those things that your average consumer doesn't think about. The engineer can do some quick thinking when shopping, "can I really manufacture XYZ part at scale and sell it (at retail!) for $1.00 and expect any degree of accuracy in that worm gear, on which this part relies on entirely for its usefulness?"
Not all bargain tools are bad. One of my favorite YouTube channels to find decent quality/affordable tools is Project Farm. Funnily enough he did recommend a Crescent brand wrench: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyOd05PUix4
this is not bargain brand, it's more of a gimmick tool (costs more than harbor freight)
The shake weight of tools perhaps.
I noticed the bargain bin in the hardware store often just gives you the illusion of buying cheap. In reality you just get crap for a price that is higher then the branded tools
This goes for everything:
- Know someone who likes books? Buy them good books!
- Know someone who likes coffee? Buy them specialty coffee!
etc.. I never saw the point in "oh they love painting, I'll get them these super cheap paints" or whatever.
- Know someone who likes books? Buy them good books!
- Know someone who likes coffee? Buy them specialty coffee!
etc.. I never saw the point in "oh they love painting, I'll get them these super cheap paints" or whatever.
all adjustable wrenches are crap
save yourself a ton of frustration and buy a set of harbor freight wrenches
save yourself a ton of frustration and buy a set of harbor freight wrenches
The jaws invariably splay when you apply force, even if you're using them correctly. I've come to the conclusion that it's just intrinsic to having a moving jaw that moves easily enough to be useful.
At this point, if I expect to need the wrench ever again (or need to reuse the fastener), I'll just buy a proper wrench for it. The couple of Crescent wrenches I keep are for emergencies and plumbing (because I don't have combo wrenches that big and do it infrequently), nothing more.
Vise-grips? Another tool that I find is more apt to round something than grip it properly. If I'm reaching for them, I figure I'm already so dicked that I'm unlikely to make it worse. Once in a while they get me out of an otherwise unavoidable trip to the hardware store.