Cramer: Tech CEOs tell me they’re sick of spoiled Silicon Valley employees(cnbc.com)
cnbc.com
Cramer: Tech CEOs tell me they’re sick of spoiled Silicon Valley employees
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/09/cramer-tech-ceos-tell-me-theyre-sick-of-spoiled-silicon-valley-employees.html
19 comments
Cramer is a clown. I really think it's amazing people take investment "advice" from the show which is 98% hyperbole. I don't even know if the whole show and persona is just acting and there's a real Cramer who is like a normal, rational individual, or if he's actually like that when the camera isn't on.
The Wall Street bet Reddit thread basically does the opposite of what Cramer advices and I’m starting consider doing so as well.
I remember John Stewart destroying Cramer during the 2008 crisis. I'm suprised he's still around.
Jon Stewart also famously went on Crossfire back in 2004 and delivered a viral takedown to Tucker Carlson and Paul Begala[0]. It doesn’t seem like he had much of a long term impact there either.
[0]: https://youtu.be/aFQFB5YpDZE
[0]: https://youtu.be/aFQFB5YpDZE
Cramer is an entertainer, and it's probably fine if people view him through that lens. I used to watch him because he's fun to watch, even though I had no interest in investing at the time. I'd probably still watch if I had cable.
My mom used to call him "The Screamer".
Absolute raving nonsense from this guy, as usual. Supply and demand clearly favor the employees, and most tech ceos are barely maintaining the market share they have. Nobody is moving a company. They might open an hq for subsidies.
Difference between dot com and now is every company is a tech company. Someone is always there to vacuum up the layoffs. So many companies need engineers and can’t afford them. Like the real estate, cut the price 5% and someone will snap it up.
But income is actually still going up right now.
Difference between dot com and now is every company is a tech company. Someone is always there to vacuum up the layoffs. So many companies need engineers and can’t afford them. Like the real estate, cut the price 5% and someone will snap it up.
But income is actually still going up right now.
Tech CEOs can suck one.
The power relationship has been far too one sided for far too long. Get used to the new reality where you have to pay more than lip-service to the idea of treating staff like human beings, and where a quick dosh-splosh to a PR company isn’t sufficient to wipe away a multitude of corporate sins.
The power relationship has been far too one sided for far too long. Get used to the new reality where you have to pay more than lip-service to the idea of treating staff like human beings, and where a quick dosh-splosh to a PR company isn’t sufficient to wipe away a multitude of corporate sins.
Some of the SV employees probably are sick of spoiled preening tech CEOs.
Why can't the CEOs be as happy with what their employees get, who work to create the CEOs' wealth, as they are with providing for their entitled cost-center children?
Why can't the CEOs be as happy with what their employees get, who work to create the CEOs' wealth, as they are with providing for their entitled cost-center children?
I can't name a cushier job than a Silicon Valley one. If you work there and said this, then Cramer is right. You are spoiled.
What makes you think the average American SWE job can't be replaced by five Eastern European or Indian SWEs for the same price?
Argument comes often, still want to see that work out in practice.
Universities (also western ones!!) are spitting out more and more SWEs with less talent... great talent still exists, and you need to find and retain it, and guess what, even the eastern european and indian talent jumps ship and payscale.
And for just complete cheap outsourcing, proper spec, solving misunderstandings, and verification suddenly outweighs everything else..
So no, good talent is even not replacable by any n of cheaper ones, waiting to hear only one success story (and not just fail in every regard) for that.
And for just complete cheap outsourcing, proper spec, solving misunderstandings, and verification suddenly outweighs everything else..
So no, good talent is even not replacable by any n of cheaper ones, waiting to hear only one success story (and not just fail in every regard) for that.
Because it hasn't happened
A few facts for US developers to keep in mind:
- India will have 5.2 million software developers by 2023.
- Average salary of software engineer in India is $7,750 per year.
- English is a primary language in India
- Indian software developers are professionally competent.
- All Indian software engineers will work for US companies remotely…from India
- India will have 5.2 million software developers by 2023.
- Average salary of software engineer in India is $7,750 per year.
- English is a primary language in India
- Indian software developers are professionally competent.
- All Indian software engineers will work for US companies remotely…from India
Some additional items to keep in mind:
- Those developers in India are 180 degrees out of phase time-zone wise. There is effectively zero overlap in working hours from the west coast of the US to India. Makes it hard to collaborate.
- You get what you pay for. Skilled developers in India move to the US (or some other country where they have better opportunities). I've worked with some _fantastic_ developers from India, but they've mostly relocated.
- Quantity != Quality, although quantity does have a quality all it's own.
- Those developers in India are 180 degrees out of phase time-zone wise. There is effectively zero overlap in working hours from the west coast of the US to India. Makes it hard to collaborate.
- You get what you pay for. Skilled developers in India move to the US (or some other country where they have better opportunities). I've worked with some _fantastic_ developers from India, but they've mostly relocated.
- Quantity != Quality, although quantity does have a quality all it's own.
People working from India tend to work between 5pm-1am local time which is 5am-1pm US time. That's effectively till lunch which is a pretty good overlap. Bonus, you are left meetings-free for the other half so it is solid work time. It also leaves you free during the day rather than the night, so you get to do other things.
Keep in mind: scarcity != quality either.
That’s not to say that the US can’t fill the void, I believe that they are reluctant to do so because of the cost of US employees.
That’s not to say that the US can’t fill the void, I believe that they are reluctant to do so because of the cost of US employees.
Lol. India also has a shortage of software engineers now because these days they are building services for domestic market instead of for western markets. These software engineers get paid $50k. The average $7k software engineer is not the engineer anyone wants to hire.
At $50k they are a steal vs the American developers who think they are changing the world with their crud apps and expect $300k before payroll taxes, health insurance, and endless political battles at the workplace, not to mention significant amounts of company stock every year.
West European developers have been on about that pay level for a long time but not that many of them ended up working for US companies, despite being comparably competent to US developers and arguably more culturally similar to US.
Because it costs effectively more to hire West European developers. Hiring a WE developer has additional sunk costs to it, making it harder to replace an employee, hence companies resort to not hiring them, or hiring the extremely talented ones who haven't relocated yet on contract.
And on better timezones
I'm unsure how you've managed to compare a worker from a totally different country with very different living standards and costs to one in the US.
Adjusted 200 or 300k gets you the right to live comfortably in the US.
Adjusted 200 or 300k gets you the right to live comfortably in the US.
You’re painting with a very broad brush.
I've worked with a fair number of Indian developers though our consultancy contracts.
I must say skilled and excellent engineers are few and far between. I am talking orders of magnitude. Some have even slipped through the net after we've used the consultancy to hire people, only to learn they've known little to nothing about software once they were sponsored, we've sent two back like this and it was very emotional and messy.
When you find a skilled developer they really shine but it seems big consultancy companies have a hard time allocating skilled devs where ever you are in the world.
Lessons learned were lots of work hours needlessly wasted when we eventually paid extra and hired some graduates.
I must say skilled and excellent engineers are few and far between. I am talking orders of magnitude. Some have even slipped through the net after we've used the consultancy to hire people, only to learn they've known little to nothing about software once they were sponsored, we've sent two back like this and it was very emotional and messy.
When you find a skilled developer they really shine but it seems big consultancy companies have a hard time allocating skilled devs where ever you are in the world.
Lessons learned were lots of work hours needlessly wasted when we eventually paid extra and hired some graduates.
India has lots and lots of developers today and has had lots for a good long time now.
But it seems there are factors beyond this list that prevent the majority of US development jobs from being shipped to india.
But it seems there are factors beyond this list that prevent the majority of US development jobs from being shipped to india.
I think we shouldn't characterize it as US vs India, but rather as US vs not-US. And indeed, a ton of jobs are being shipped out of the US and, at the very least, out of the Bay Area.
How can I possibly compete with that?! Guess I'll have to become a greeter at walmart:
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/software/311845-boeings-737-m...
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/software/311845-boeings-737-m...
This comment is giving me an eerie feeling of deja vu. Haven't we been through this before?
Like they say: those who don't know history are condemned to repeat it, and those who do know history are condemned to watch everyone else repeat it.
India. The place where Java 2.0 apps are sent to die over time.
[deleted]
I do not understand why you are being downvoted, but one look at other industries tells you that you are right.
First, older developers will be mercilessly fired and replaced by developers in India. There is a growing cohort of older developers who are perfectly content to come in and do mundane software development work in India. They have the experience, and with the way America is treating its legal migrants, there will be a huge pool of developers who have cut their teeth on projects at leading American software companies who will be living out the twilight of their careers in India. For the current cohort of Indian Software Developers at American companies, a path to permanent residence and citizenship is 50+ years out. They all know this and have no plans to remain in America indefinitely, but will actively return to India, but not before lining up lucrative positions working for American companies first, perhaps also taking away whole chunks of work to supervise with them.
Second, there is a growing awareness of development methodologies, cutting-edge technologies, and most importantly, cloud computing facilities located in India and growing cheaper by the minute. Developers joining the workforce today are much more suave and conversant with the latest technologies, and it's no different in India. As a bonus, many are perfectly happy to do mundane software development tasks that junior devs here are loth to do.
Third, the exact opposite timezone of India is an advantage: it works pretty much like a factory that runs two shifts that effectively halves time-to-market, which is a potent advantage that will not be turned down by a company once its competitors start seizing it.
Fourth, companies are beginning to seek out developers who have expertise in the industry in countries that have highly-developed niches in the industry. An example is biology, medicine, and bioinformatics. There are heaps of extremely-qualified Oxford and Cambridge graduates in England who are very happy to just take responsibility for entire lines of business (although they do suffer from an extremely awkward time difference with the west coast that works to their disadvantage). It is also happening with finance, to a certain extent.
The number you have mentioned, of 5.2 million software developers is absolutely staggering. Even if 10 percent of them turn out to be as good as the best of the American workforce, it easily eclipses the cream of the crop here by a comfortable margin. This is combining with the move out of large cities in India to smaller towns where the cost advantage is even higher, which all but guarantees that there will be companies that will want to take advantage of that.
Finally, there is a growing realization that globalizing indiscriminately, particularly to autocratic countries that have the potential to be formidable adversaries was very short-sighted and has created intractable political problems. The people in power have taken notice of this and will likely not want to put themselves in this position again. Younger leaders are all coming up in a time of brazen malfeasance by these autocrats, which also ensures that democratic countries will have a slight edge.
First, older developers will be mercilessly fired and replaced by developers in India. There is a growing cohort of older developers who are perfectly content to come in and do mundane software development work in India. They have the experience, and with the way America is treating its legal migrants, there will be a huge pool of developers who have cut their teeth on projects at leading American software companies who will be living out the twilight of their careers in India. For the current cohort of Indian Software Developers at American companies, a path to permanent residence and citizenship is 50+ years out. They all know this and have no plans to remain in America indefinitely, but will actively return to India, but not before lining up lucrative positions working for American companies first, perhaps also taking away whole chunks of work to supervise with them.
Second, there is a growing awareness of development methodologies, cutting-edge technologies, and most importantly, cloud computing facilities located in India and growing cheaper by the minute. Developers joining the workforce today are much more suave and conversant with the latest technologies, and it's no different in India. As a bonus, many are perfectly happy to do mundane software development tasks that junior devs here are loth to do.
Third, the exact opposite timezone of India is an advantage: it works pretty much like a factory that runs two shifts that effectively halves time-to-market, which is a potent advantage that will not be turned down by a company once its competitors start seizing it.
Fourth, companies are beginning to seek out developers who have expertise in the industry in countries that have highly-developed niches in the industry. An example is biology, medicine, and bioinformatics. There are heaps of extremely-qualified Oxford and Cambridge graduates in England who are very happy to just take responsibility for entire lines of business (although they do suffer from an extremely awkward time difference with the west coast that works to their disadvantage). It is also happening with finance, to a certain extent.
The number you have mentioned, of 5.2 million software developers is absolutely staggering. Even if 10 percent of them turn out to be as good as the best of the American workforce, it easily eclipses the cream of the crop here by a comfortable margin. This is combining with the move out of large cities in India to smaller towns where the cost advantage is even higher, which all but guarantees that there will be companies that will want to take advantage of that.
Finally, there is a growing realization that globalizing indiscriminately, particularly to autocratic countries that have the potential to be formidable adversaries was very short-sighted and has created intractable political problems. The people in power have taken notice of this and will likely not want to put themselves in this position again. Younger leaders are all coming up in a time of brazen malfeasance by these autocrats, which also ensures that democratic countries will have a slight edge.
> it works pretty much like a factory that runs two shifts that effectively halves time-to-market
This presumes that you retain local developers rather than firing them - i.e. not what the person above you is suggesting.
This presumes that you retain local developers rather than firing them - i.e. not what the person above you is suggesting.
Why is anyone still listening to Cramer? The fellow's a hack. See the Jon Stewart interview of him if you haven't done so.
It doesn't even take Jon Stewart to reveal what Jim Cramer is. Just read one of his books! The man brags about doing things normal people would be ashamed of.
I'm a MAANG SRE/PE.
To be fair, I'm tired of absurd behavior and mindset of many unprofessional corporate employees in general not particular to any company: immature, self-absorbed, toxic positivity, BS, and low threshold for dealing with ambiguity.
Edit: I don't know that there's a mass exodus from SF in particular except due to high costs for employers and employees. NYC, PDX, SEA, and ATX are expensive too. Also, Cramer has a big mouth and throws loaded language around like it's gospel. The Hannity of stocks.
To be fair, I'm tired of absurd behavior and mindset of many unprofessional corporate employees in general not particular to any company: immature, self-absorbed, toxic positivity, BS, and low threshold for dealing with ambiguity.
Edit: I don't know that there's a mass exodus from SF in particular except due to high costs for employers and employees. NYC, PDX, SEA, and ATX are expensive too. Also, Cramer has a big mouth and throws loaded language around like it's gospel. The Hannity of stocks.
Even if what this clown is saying were true, it wouldn't really matter.
These CEOs he's allegedly talked can throw as many tantrum as they want. If they don't pay the price, they just won't get any hires. Simple as that. "Tech exodus"? What is this even supposed to mean? Are the CEOs going to shutter their companies, fire all their employees and move to a cabin in the woods?
These CEOs he's allegedly talked can throw as many tantrum as they want. If they don't pay the price, they just won't get any hires. Simple as that. "Tech exodus"? What is this even supposed to mean? Are the CEOs going to shutter their companies, fire all their employees and move to a cabin in the woods?
People with less options leave all the time too, you just don't hear about because it blends in with the poor.
There's a lack of self awareness in the tech ceos in this article, they blame employees for leaving, so they leave too. Who's leading who here?
The heirarchy doesn't have as much influence as it used to, being relatable is absolutely key no matter your position.
There's a lack of self awareness in the tech ceos in this article, they blame employees for leaving, so they leave too. Who's leading who here?
The heirarchy doesn't have as much influence as it used to, being relatable is absolutely key no matter your position.
Spicy! But there is a story here. But it's about power, prestige, and how that's not supposed to go to the nerds who know how to fix the AV equipment, it's supposed to go to the jock, the politician, the salesman. It's probably very galling to a certain type of person that someone who cares about stupid shit like entropy, or instruction sets, or packet congestion (to pick a suitably random assortment of things) to be paid well, and worse, to be expected to be paid well. Who do they think they are?!
(Technically speaking, the reason compensation is good is because we are the human components of the incredible shrinking machine that can squeeze a set of HCI into a state so small you can squirt billions of copies around the world effectively for free. And that is a valuable thing to be able to do, it turns out, for all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons.)
(Technically speaking, the reason compensation is good is because we are the human components of the incredible shrinking machine that can squeeze a set of HCI into a state so small you can squirt billions of copies around the world effectively for free. And that is a valuable thing to be able to do, it turns out, for all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons.)
“CEOs state that they hate having to compensate according to the market, and would like someone to do something about the invisible hand of the market”
[edit: apparently grammar is hard, have->having]
[edit: apparently grammar is hard, have->having]
doesn't everyone hate having to pay more than they want? You could say unionizing workers are just seething about the invisible hand too. Seems like a weak criticism.
That was kind of the point - only here instead of saying “we wish market prices were lower”, it’s framed as the people charging market rates are spoiled.
You can’t use “free hand of the market” to protect yourself from regulation, etc and then attack your employees for also using said free hand of the market. Which was my point.
You can’t use “free hand of the market” to protect yourself from regulation, etc and then attack your employees for also using said free hand of the market. Which was my point.
Cramer + Theranos
https://youtu.be/FurGeefL-LI?t=28
https://youtu.be/FurGeefL-LI?t=28
With all due respect: tech CEOs - and their mouthpieces like Cramer - can kindly eat an entire bag of dicks. If they don't like me treating them as disposable, then they should've thought twice before treating me as disposable - as they did, multiple times in my career. Golden Rule and all that.
Wow you summed up my entire career as a dev in like a paragraph. So polite too! Ha ha.
Fewer options to jump ship? Bitch, remote work is already here. I'm in New Zealand, working for a NY company. You're already competing globally for employees. You can't move your company away from the competition. You can only choose to compete poorly.
Hello tech CEOs, employees are renegotiating their contract with you, this is called capitalism. You can try to fire them, but most probably you would disrupt operations of your company, so you won't do it on a mass scale. This is called leverage which employees have towards you. I know, it is strange to be on receiving end of capitalism.
Tech CEOs can complain all they want, but if they stay in silicon valley, I'll take that to mean the alternatives were worse.
To paraphrase Rudyard Kipling;
A liar, a flatterer, and Cramer were all hatched out of the same egg.
-- From The Undertakers
A liar, a flatterer, and Cramer were all hatched out of the same egg.
-- From The Undertakers
What self respecting person speaks to Cramer and why does anyone even listen to him?
Oh no, jobs with a living wage that let people have time and resources to self actualize. That's definitely not the point of capitalism, better kill it quickly!