Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11(patrick-breyer.de)
patrick-breyer.de
Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11
https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chat-control-eu-commission-presents-mass-surveillance-plan-on-may-11%ef%bf%bc/
323 comments
Complete and total invasion of privacy.
They always choose the most egregious crime to push through a cecession of rights. If you oppose this, you are supporting pedophiles. But fuck them. Don't let them gaslight you.
There are countless broken laws that could be caught if only they could see our data.
How long until they force Google or Apple to report someone to the authorities if their GPS says they are travelling 100mph on a road.
How long until there is AI that can use your biometrics to determine if you are too impaired to drive?
There are countless broken laws that could be caught if only they could see our data.
How long until they force Google or Apple to report someone to the authorities if their GPS says they are travelling 100mph on a road.
How long until there is AI that can use your biometrics to determine if you are too impaired to drive?
If EU really wants to curb risk to children:
-significantly raise the penalty for sexual child abuse
-provide clinics and medications for people with this mental disease
I'm just tired, to be honest. Even if we prevent this exact law (proposal), a few years down the line there probably will be another attempt. And again, and again. Just like it happend with the mandatory data retention laws for ISPs.
I really try to stay optimistic on this topic, but it's really hard. :/
I really try to stay optimistic on this topic, but it's really hard. :/
I went three indirections down and I still can't find any actual quotes or even summaries of concrete proposals, so I'm surprised how many people can confidently judge that these unexplained proposals are a dumpster fire solely on the basis that they aim to precent child sexual abuse material...
The most specific thing I found was a linked document that laid out three possible legislation options, all in very loose language, of which one was an entirely voluntary system.
Found from here https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa...
The most specific thing I found was a linked document that laid out three possible legislation options, all in very loose language, of which one was an entirely voluntary system.
Found from here https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa...
Nope.
And I say that as a committed european and general approver of the EU.
This is daft and contrary to fundamental human rights but as is so often the case in such matters it points towards the obvious solution.
Do not rely on third party services for human rights. In other words self-host.
Yes self-hosting is tedious and error-prone. It also means I am the only individual running daft but compliant algorithms on my data, and that's enough. If I witness criminality I am already obliged to perform my civic duties.
I really, truly, utterly, neither require nor desire some twerp in a pink shirt pushing new marketing analysis methodologies on the enforcers of an data analysis regime legislated poorly by dementocrats.
So, yeah, nope.
And I say that as a committed european and general approver of the EU.
This is daft and contrary to fundamental human rights but as is so often the case in such matters it points towards the obvious solution.
Do not rely on third party services for human rights. In other words self-host.
Yes self-hosting is tedious and error-prone. It also means I am the only individual running daft but compliant algorithms on my data, and that's enough. If I witness criminality I am already obliged to perform my civic duties.
I really, truly, utterly, neither require nor desire some twerp in a pink shirt pushing new marketing analysis methodologies on the enforcers of an data analysis regime legislated poorly by dementocrats.
So, yeah, nope.
The interesting thing about EU is that, because it’s a bureaucratic dictatorship, it can force it (worse, citizens are mostly obedient). So it’s particularly dangerous.
Imagine France orders this! It’s not like Apple responding to consumers’ opinion.
Imagine France orders this! It’s not like Apple responding to consumers’ opinion.
I really really look forward to a world where internet service providers simply stop bowing to shitty unhealthy demands of sovereign powers.
I (admittedly, a no-one) have no intent to respect this & every intent to eacallate my efforts to help people fight off pernicious piece of shit legislation.
On the plus side, the pushes towards hosting-it-yourself keep going up. The fact that all our rights online are granted by way of vast corporate intermediaries is systematically broken & vile, allows endless encroachment g degredation of base liberies. We can keep fighting battles, but starting to assert more natural rights, making this an ask not against service providers but against private persons, is how to tip this war back against the ever encroaching monstrous survelliance regime.
I (admittedly, a no-one) have no intent to respect this & every intent to eacallate my efforts to help people fight off pernicious piece of shit legislation.
On the plus side, the pushes towards hosting-it-yourself keep going up. The fact that all our rights online are granted by way of vast corporate intermediaries is systematically broken & vile, allows endless encroachment g degredation of base liberies. We can keep fighting battles, but starting to assert more natural rights, making this an ask not against service providers but against private persons, is how to tip this war back against the ever encroaching monstrous survelliance regime.
The moment this shit passes is the moment I straight up tell people I will not discuss about anything meaningful in our private online chats and if they want to talk we will have to arrange with proven FOSS tools.
Ok, i'm not defending this, but as i might have a bit more insight on how the EU actually work, i will share my limited knowledge.
The commission is the European executive power. It is a mostly unelected body.
The parliament is the one you vote for if you do vote during the european elections
The council is composed by representative of the head of state from the 27 countries.
Once a law is drafted by the European commission (i don't think they can have the idea themselve btw, they just help draft the proposition to try to make it pass through the european court, but i believe they are not the originators of the proposition. 90% sure i'd say), it can follow two procedures: either the ordinary (also called codecision procedure) or the special (consultation procedure). The second case rarely happen, and is limited right now to trade laws basically. So the law we're talking about will have to follow the ordinary procedure.
This procedure will set this law proposition in front of the parliament. The parliament will either accept or modify (cannot abandon the law that fast sadly). Then the european council will decide if they agree on the text. If they do not, they either reject it or they modify it (yes, i know) and send it to the parliament a second time. Once again review, modifications, and, if not enough support, rejection. This will certainly end the proposition here. If it is not rejected but simply modified, then the council will debate on this. Any government can choose to stop and/or reject the text at this point. I think there is one more step if the text isn't rejected yet but i'm not exactly sure what this step entails (i assume a special commission between the EU parliament and the countries that did not agree to the text/that push the text)
It is interesting to have this information, but keep indignation low. I don't believe this will pass step 3.
The commission is the European executive power. It is a mostly unelected body.
The parliament is the one you vote for if you do vote during the european elections
The council is composed by representative of the head of state from the 27 countries.
Once a law is drafted by the European commission (i don't think they can have the idea themselve btw, they just help draft the proposition to try to make it pass through the european court, but i believe they are not the originators of the proposition. 90% sure i'd say), it can follow two procedures: either the ordinary (also called codecision procedure) or the special (consultation procedure). The second case rarely happen, and is limited right now to trade laws basically. So the law we're talking about will have to follow the ordinary procedure.
This procedure will set this law proposition in front of the parliament. The parliament will either accept or modify (cannot abandon the law that fast sadly). Then the european council will decide if they agree on the text. If they do not, they either reject it or they modify it (yes, i know) and send it to the parliament a second time. Once again review, modifications, and, if not enough support, rejection. This will certainly end the proposition here. If it is not rejected but simply modified, then the council will debate on this. Any government can choose to stop and/or reject the text at this point. I think there is one more step if the text isn't rejected yet but i'm not exactly sure what this step entails (i assume a special commission between the EU parliament and the countries that did not agree to the text/that push the text)
It is interesting to have this information, but keep indignation low. I don't believe this will pass step 3.
This is a typical way for unpopular laws to pass. Pretend it's to save kids, to spread democracy or to whatever else you really care about.
Ugh, the EU should be enshrining the right to privacy as a human right, and instead we get this garbage.
These pathetic fucks should stop pretending to worry about children. What they really want is subversive populace living under the constant threat of being made criminals.
FFS China, Russia, India etc are proud of you.
FFS China, Russia, India etc are proud of you.
Ah the classic "But think of the children" appeal...
Anybody know how this will impact proton?
Anybody know how this will impact proton?
> This will require them to monitor and scan the communications of citizens en masse – even if they are still securely encrypted end-to-end so far.
how does this work though? Or do they want to force communication services to have backdoor into their encryption technology?
how does this work though? Or do they want to force communication services to have backdoor into their encryption technology?
So the draft hasn't been published? Have there been public committee meetings? I'd like to know more about the actual content of the bill.
I don't understand who wants this. does any of their actual constituency want it? Or is it literally just the actual elected officials getting power hungry?
Stuff like abortion, etc where I don't really understand the other side. I've at least met real people who are pro life.
I've never met the people who want these clownish surveillance things but they keep coming up anyways.
Stuff like abortion, etc where I don't really understand the other side. I've at least met real people who are pro life.
I've never met the people who want these clownish surveillance things but they keep coming up anyways.
In the past few years, every shit done to internet freedoms in Russia (mass surveillance, censorship, blocking, etc) was done under the pretense of fighting terrorism or protecting children (don't you want to protect children, you monsters!). Then, of course, it was used to suppress political opposition and dissidents.
This will happen in EU too, if it'll pass. Have wrong views on immigration/abortion/vaccination/economy/gender/sexuality? Your citizen rights after suspended, bank accounts frozen, kids taken away, etc. It is imperative to stop such initiatives in their infancy.
This will happen in EU too, if it'll pass. Have wrong views on immigration/abortion/vaccination/economy/gender/sexuality? Your citizen rights after suspended, bank accounts frozen, kids taken away, etc. It is imperative to stop such initiatives in their infancy.
This plan is useless. In this day and age it's trivial to create a system for private communication that works outside the mainstream apps.
A free society must tolerate a percentage of crime.
If not, they are not free.
If not, they are not free.
For the longest time I have been treating every communication that's not private, in-person with someone I know as essentially public (iow. this changes almost nothing to me, I consider anything online more-or-less public, under surveillance etc already).
Governments are not our friends. Ostensibly they're supposed to be tools to check powerful interests. In reality, the larger the governing body the more they work for the powerful.
The EU passes a bunch of token privacy regulations, but then tries to force mass surveillance.
It's all a control scheme. Never believe the government are the 'good guys.'
The EU passes a bunch of token privacy regulations, but then tries to force mass surveillance.
It's all a control scheme. Never believe the government are the 'good guys.'
This falls into the category of a bill proposal, or maybe not even that, since it seems to be just a paragraph announcing a forthcoming proposal?
For a substantive HN thread, it's probably better to wait until there's something actual to discuss. For better and/or worse, proposed bills usually don't come to much (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).
For a substantive HN thread, it's probably better to wait until there's something actual to discuss. For better and/or worse, proposed bills usually don't come to much (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).
What's that "%ef%bf%bc" at the end of the link ?
Stupid question:
Wouldnʼt it be alright if an open source messenger scans messages locally against a secret word list and only sends it to police if there's a hit, otherwise only send it to the recipient with the usual end-to-end encryption?
The secret word list would need to be curated and digitally signed by several parties, including data security advocates to ensure that it doesn't simply contain the entire dictionary.
The secret word list would need to be curated and digitally signed by several parties, including data security advocates to ensure that it doesn't simply contain the entire dictionary.
I am not surprised. The EU consists of a bunch of bullies that force their views on member countries. Abide, or be sanctioned and bullied into compliance. Leaders of members countries are being bought to encourage membership. And when the people vote against it, there will be a new vote next year. And once you've joined, you can't leave out of fear of sanctions.
Of course it has nothing to do with effective search for child porn. They should search for criminals in dark web, not in emails. Seriously, how many abusers would be so dumb to send those pictures by email.
It is same story again and again. Applying collective guilt was always terrible for society. And it is pure principle to implement totalitarian practices.
It is same story again and again. Applying collective guilt was always terrible for society. And it is pure principle to implement totalitarian practices.
The Panopticon is a marvelous machine which, whatever use one may wish to put it to, produces homogeneous effects of power.
How is this law supposed to work with text encryption? Write text, encrypt, copy to clipboard, paste into chat app? Will such encryption applications be prohibited? That seems unenforcable, these apps are everywhere, I've even written one with symmetric encryption myself.
- QTox for messaging.
- Thunderbird+Enigmail or ClawsMail+GPG for email.
- I2PD + mail.i2p account and general posting over NNTP and light web browsing.
- NNCPGO for the worst case + "sneakernet" with encrypted USB drivers.
http://www.nncpgo.org/
- Thunderbird+Enigmail or ClawsMail+GPG for email.
- I2PD + mail.i2p account and general posting over NNTP and light web browsing.
- NNCPGO for the worst case + "sneakernet" with encrypted USB drivers.
http://www.nncpgo.org/
> Protest now by contacting the responsible EU Commissioners! Experience shows that a phone call is more effective than e-mails or letters. Officially, the planned obligation for messaging and chat control is called “legislation to effectively tackle child sexual abuse online”.
> If an office tries to redirect you to the EU Commissioner for Home Affairs (Directorate-General for Home Affairs), point out that all EU Commissioners vote on draft legislation and can raise concerns at an early stage.
[from https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/messaging-and-chat-co...]