An interview that disappeared – FIFA World Cup Qatar 2022(josimarfootball.com)
josimarfootball.com
An interview that disappeared – FIFA World Cup Qatar 2022
https://josimarfootball.com/the-interview-that-disappeared/
226 comments
> It seems that FIFA isn't exactly free of corruption
Blatter and Platini are both facing a trial right now: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59133079
In 2019, Platini was detained over the awarding of the World Cup to Qatar: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jun/18/michel-plat...
> Michel Platini, the banned former Uefa president and France football legend, has been detained in connection with a criminal investigation into alleged corruption relating to Fifa’s decision to host the 2022 World Cup in Qatar, French justice sources have confirmed.
Blatter and Platini are both facing a trial right now: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59133079
In 2019, Platini was detained over the awarding of the World Cup to Qatar: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jun/18/michel-plat...
> Michel Platini, the banned former Uefa president and France football legend, has been detained in connection with a criminal investigation into alleged corruption relating to Fifa’s decision to host the 2022 World Cup in Qatar, French justice sources have confirmed.
Organized sports at the professional and international level have been in the business of sportwashing practically since their inception.
Do you sell tobacco that causes your users to die a painful and lingering death from cancer? No problem, sponsor one of the most famous vehicles in F1 history.
Are you leading a fascist state that will go on to murder six million Jews, homosexuals, Roma, and other "undesirables," not to mention plunging the world into war? No problem, host the Olympics, they'll gladly let you use it as a propaganda exercise.
But of course, if someone boycotts the Olympics, they are being "political." If someone raises their fist in protest, they are "besmirching the Olympics." if you aren't paying for it, you aren't allowed to exploit it.
What has changed since 1976 and 1936, respectively? Nothing.
Do you sell tobacco that causes your users to die a painful and lingering death from cancer? No problem, sponsor one of the most famous vehicles in F1 history.
Are you leading a fascist state that will go on to murder six million Jews, homosexuals, Roma, and other "undesirables," not to mention plunging the world into war? No problem, host the Olympics, they'll gladly let you use it as a propaganda exercise.
But of course, if someone boycotts the Olympics, they are being "political." If someone raises their fist in protest, they are "besmirching the Olympics." if you aren't paying for it, you aren't allowed to exploit it.
What has changed since 1976 and 1936, respectively? Nothing.
Don't forget the NBA and LeBron James personal support for dictator JinPing's destruction of the freedom of Hong Kong and the genocide of the Uighurs.
> it's a scandal that they're running the world cup in Qatar. A winter world cup pushes the schedules way off what's normal and traditional. That is of course not the only concern, there's also stories about dozens of people dying building these stadiums in the desert heat.
What a paragraph. The death toll is at least in the many thousands, perhaps even >10,000.
What a paragraph. The death toll is at least in the many thousands, perhaps even >10,000.
This source claims 6.5k since 2011: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/r...
That's around ~700 deaths per year. But Qatar has ~1.5million workers from India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. So, ~700/year is not an outrageous number for natural deaths (works out around 0.04%). This is way lower than the death rate in the USA for a young age segment (25-40): https://www.statista.com/statistics/241572/death-rate-by-age...
Qatar is hurting more by not allowing an independent and transparent journalism around the conditions and deaths of these workers. Just shows the idiocy at the top level of their government.
That's around ~700 deaths per year. But Qatar has ~1.5million workers from India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. So, ~700/year is not an outrageous number for natural deaths (works out around 0.04%). This is way lower than the death rate in the USA for a young age segment (25-40): https://www.statista.com/statistics/241572/death-rate-by-age...
Qatar is hurting more by not allowing an independent and transparent journalism around the conditions and deaths of these workers. Just shows the idiocy at the top level of their government.
Of course transparency in reporting should be the first prerequisite for arranging a World Cup. And unless we have free press showing the opposite, we can only assume the death toll to be higher than reported.
This analysis is assuming all 1.5M peop,e were working on World Cup stuff.
The source is not limited to the World Cup though, but all workers.
[deleted]
Sources?
I found eg https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/r... which tries to count all deaths, not just what can be attributed to the football stadiums.
(It's a high death toll in any case. But we should still stick to the facts.)
I found eg https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/r... which tries to count all deaths, not just what can be attributed to the football stadiums.
(It's a high death toll in any case. But we should still stick to the facts.)
I said dozens because it seems credible, I didn't look anything up. It's somewhat common for construction workers to die even in the modern world, but my shock is more that it seems worse than most projects (Was it Guardian who had the story about people getting so tired they fell asleep and fell off the stadium roof?), yet most projects are for genuinely useful things like bridges and dams, not entertainment.
> I said dozens because it seems credible, I didn't look anything up.
So you literally just made up a statistic out of nothing and posted it here? Why do you think that’s ok?
So you literally just made up a statistic out of nothing and posted it here? Why do you think that’s ok?
There's a big difference between making it up and having a hunch from reading a bit, without the specific sources to hand. There's nothing wrong with that, you can go and do your own research if you want, don't expect me to do it for you.
It's pretty laughable for you to suggest that people can't just say what they want on the internet
It's pretty laughable for you to suggest that people can't just say what they want on the internet
"There's a big difference between making it up and having a hunch from reading a bit" - this is the laughable part, because they state a number in the article, so clearly a BIT of reading was the most that was done. Ha. If you're going to just throw out a random but plausible number for your argument's sake, you grab it from the article, if you've read far enough to see it.
Nah you were speaking higher than your hat
Lol....it's an internet forum, not a referenced work like Wikipedia.
Alan:
Dozens of people died of COVID last year.
Beth:
You forking idiot, millions died, not dozens.
Alan:
Okay, so it's a lot of dozens. What's your problem?
Dozens of people died of COVID last year.
Beth:
You forking idiot, millions died, not dozens.
Alan:
Okay, so it's a lot of dozens. What's your problem?
It's not a high death toll (they have 1.5million workers of these nationalities). There is no transparent due-process for the identification of the death cause or the investigation of the working conditions. So these numbers don't really translate to much...
Yeah, I'm far more concerned about the apparent slavery of migrant workers in Qatar than about how it affects some schedules.
Qatar has also very close ties to some football clubs, e.g. FC Bayern. Fans start taking notice though.
Just a couple of weeks ago, Bayern Munich's annual general meeting ended with the club's directors being yelled at for refusing to discuss their sponsorship agreement with Qatar.
https://nationworldnews.com/bayern-munichs-agm-ends-in-uproa...
Just a couple of weeks ago, Bayern Munich's annual general meeting ended with the club's directors being yelled at for refusing to discuss their sponsorship agreement with Qatar.
https://nationworldnews.com/bayern-munichs-agm-ends-in-uproa...
Worth noting that German clubs are somewhat unique because they're supposed to be owned by the fans[0], not corporations (with some exceptions). Fans pay money for the membership to have some influence on its operation and vote on some issues.
As one can see from your link, it's definitely less than perfect in practice, but that's why the fans are supposed to have any say in deals like this instead of the club being able to do whatever they want to like in most other countries.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%2B1_rule
As one can see from your link, it's definitely less than perfect in practice, but that's why the fans are supposed to have any say in deals like this instead of the club being able to do whatever they want to like in most other countries.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%2B1_rule
I listened to a news podcast that covered the meeting[0] and it was very interesting to hear the fans chanting "We are Bayern, You are not!"
Turns out the club bylaws put sponsorship decisions entirely in the hands of the leadership, and this was affirmed in court, so there's no way for the fans to cancel the Qatar deal without convincing the very people who made the deal.
[0]: in German: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/26-11-21-macht-b-1-1-529-alle...
Turns out the club bylaws put sponsorship decisions entirely in the hands of the leadership, and this was affirmed in court, so there's no way for the fans to cancel the Qatar deal without convincing the very people who made the deal.
[0]: in German: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/26-11-21-macht-b-1-1-529-alle...
Doesn't the leadership have terms and need to be reelected? At least that's what happens with clubs here. As an associate, you can vote on the next president.
The same is true in Sweden. 51% of a professional team must be owned by supporters.
Luckily it looks likely that Bayern will simply not renew the deal and I imagine the legal tactic was a bit of a stall to allow time to find a new sponsorship deal given cash is already strapped for these teams because of COVID
> dozens
Thousands in the overall construction boom.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90607440/at-least-6500-workers-h...
Thousands in the overall construction boom.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90607440/at-least-6500-workers-h...
Massacre United. It is utterly shameful and deeply saddening.
The number doesn't seem egregious relative to how many workers there are. The Josimar article says
> In August, Amnesty released a report that documented that at least 15 000 migrant workers had died since Qatar was awarded the World Cup hosting rights in 2010.
So, 15000 deaths over 11 years, or 1,363 deaths per year. Worth noting that this number does not make a distinction between people working in Qatar for the World Cup or just anyone working in Qatar.
Wikipedia says 2.3m expats as of 2017[1]. Putting the death rate at 0.59 per 1000 people per year (for 2017, the number of expats has been increasing since 2010, so the number would be higher for 2010, lower for 2021). This would put it at the very bottom of countries based on death rate[2]. (It's already at the very bottom for death rate, but here we're only looking at expats.)
TL;DR The number quoted has very little to do with the number of people working on the 2022 World Cup, and isn't really alarming.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_mortality...
> In August, Amnesty released a report that documented that at least 15 000 migrant workers had died since Qatar was awarded the World Cup hosting rights in 2010.
So, 15000 deaths over 11 years, or 1,363 deaths per year. Worth noting that this number does not make a distinction between people working in Qatar for the World Cup or just anyone working in Qatar.
Wikipedia says 2.3m expats as of 2017[1]. Putting the death rate at 0.59 per 1000 people per year (for 2017, the number of expats has been increasing since 2010, so the number would be higher for 2010, lower for 2021). This would put it at the very bottom of countries based on death rate[2]. (It's already at the very bottom for death rate, but here we're only looking at expats.)
TL;DR The number quoted has very little to do with the number of people working on the 2022 World Cup, and isn't really alarming.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_mortality...
Here's the original report so people can check for themselves: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde22/4614/2021/en/
* The death numbers are as reported by Qatar's own statistics agency and Amnesty says there are significant problems with them.
* Migrant workers are working age, not elderly, so comparing this to overall death rates is probably misleading.
* "69% of deaths of workers from India, Nepal and Bangladesh between 2008 and 2019 were attributed to ‘natural causes’ or ‘cardiac arrest’, and contained no information about the underlying causes of death... experts consulted by Amnesty International have said that in a well-resourced health system, it should be possible to identify the cause of death in all but 1% of cases."
* The death numbers are as reported by Qatar's own statistics agency and Amnesty says there are significant problems with them.
* Migrant workers are working age, not elderly, so comparing this to overall death rates is probably misleading.
* "69% of deaths of workers from India, Nepal and Bangladesh between 2008 and 2019 were attributed to ‘natural causes’ or ‘cardiac arrest’, and contained no information about the underlying causes of death... experts consulted by Amnesty International have said that in a well-resourced health system, it should be possible to identify the cause of death in all but 1% of cases."
You wonder how many electrocutions are put down as 'cardiac arrest'. I mean yes, but not exactly natural.
Heat stroke and dehydration also leads to cardiac arrest.
Of course you can't compare general mortality to mortality of people in the prime years of their life. I have personally seen the circumstances in which Indian men work and live in the Middle East and it is not pretty. Whatever comes out/is reported officially, the truth is probably a lot worse
I haven't been able to find death rate statistics for people aged 18-30, so I can't really compare the numbers with strictly facts. There is an article from the BBC from 2015 that claims that the number is in line with what would be expected from that age group:
> The point officials are making is that there are about half a million Indian workers in Qatar, and about 250 deaths per year - and this, in their view, is not a cause for concern. In fact, Indian government data suggests that back home in India you would expect a far higher proportion to die each year - not 250, but 1,000 in any group of 500,000 25-30-year-old men.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33019838
> The point officials are making is that there are about half a million Indian workers in Qatar, and about 250 deaths per year - and this, in their view, is not a cause for concern. In fact, Indian government data suggests that back home in India you would expect a far higher proportion to die each year - not 250, but 1,000 in any group of 500,000 25-30-year-old men.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33019838
I also don't have any numbers, so I can't comment on or how or low these are. But I do know that the circumstances in which these men are put to work is are more akin to slave labor then anyone can and should expect. And the conditions are truly extreme as the heat and humidity in the middle east can be enormous. And whilst I can't take the heat for more than a few minute walking, I see these laborers doing 12 hour shifts of hard manual labor every day. So not surprised if more than a few have suffered from fatal heat-strokes.
These workers are healthier than the people who die. They are capable of working after all.
In the United States, during 2020: << Of the 1,008 construction worker deaths in 2020, 368 were from falls, slips, or trips, 247 were from transportation injuries, 174 were caused by exposure to harmful substances or environments, and 153 were the result of contact with an object or equipment. >>
Source: https://www.constructconnect.com/blog/construction-worker-de...
Google also tells me by searching << united states Construction Workers 2020 >>: << Number of Jobs, 2020: 1,514,200 >>
That sounds rougly equivalent in total construction workers, but US is about 25% lower in rate of death.
What is more disturbing to me is the treatment of low-skill migrant workers in Qatar. It is terrifying, and it strikes me as the very definition of a modern slavery economy.
Source: https://www.constructconnect.com/blog/construction-worker-de...
Google also tells me by searching << united states Construction Workers 2020 >>: << Number of Jobs, 2020: 1,514,200 >>
That sounds rougly equivalent in total construction workers, but US is about 25% lower in rate of death.
What is more disturbing to me is the treatment of low-skill migrant workers in Qatar. It is terrifying, and it strikes me as the very definition of a modern slavery economy.
Some dude on some forum claims 15,000 deaths is fine and provides zero useful sources. We’re supposed to somehow trust your word over that of Amnesty International.
What a poorly thought comment…
What a poorly thought comment…
Thanks for running some of the numbers.
Conditions for migrant workers in Qatar are certainly not pretty, but we need to be careful to stick to the facts, if we don't want to bullshit ourselves.
Conditions for migrant workers in Qatar are certainly not pretty, but we need to be careful to stick to the facts, if we don't want to bullshit ourselves.
>FIFA isn't exactly free of corruption
Understatement of the year
Understatement of the year
This looks like it's slowly improving though.
Are you serious? Infantino is trying to introduce a two-year schedule for the World Cup, solely to make more money. Not to mention that Infantino and two Swiss judicial officials are under active investigation in a corruption scandal [1].
FIFA is a bunch of corrupt crooks, and while some individuals have been shown the door when the amount of corruption became too large, the institution itself has done nothing to prevent corruption.
[1]: https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmittei...
FIFA is a bunch of corrupt crooks, and while some individuals have been shown the door when the amount of corruption became too large, the institution itself has done nothing to prevent corruption.
[1]: https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmittei...
> Infantino is trying to introduce a two-year schedule for the World Cup, solely to make more money.
While I also don’t love that idea there is a BIG difference between making more money for the organization FIFA and profiting from it vs direct corruption. Ie taking bribes from Qatar
While I also don’t love that idea there is a BIG difference between making more money for the organization FIFA and profiting from it vs direct corruption. Ie taking bribes from Qatar
They are intimately connected, aren't they? Twice as many WCs, twice as many chances to sell your vote.
FIFA the org doesn't need more money, any extra they get will get pocketed with intra-org admin, where the jobs are also doled out as favours.
FIFA the org doesn't need more money, any extra they get will get pocketed with intra-org admin, where the jobs are also doled out as favours.
Not necessarily. Twice as many World Cups is a massive money making opportunity irrespective of sold votes. Unless you argue the pursuit of more money is inherently corrupt (…which I don’t know I’d entirely disagree with!)
It's not automatically a massive opportunity. It's reasonably likely that it dilutes the specialness of the product, makes it less attractive, and then it makes less money per iteration.
Pursuit of money for your organisation is not corrupt at all, yes.
You might not like it, but it's an entirely separate thing.
(Just like it's silly to call everyone you disagree with politically either a fascist or a communist. They are other bad things, too!)
You might not like it, but it's an entirely separate thing.
(Just like it's silly to call everyone you disagree with politically either a fascist or a communist. They are other bad things, too!)
> a two-year schedule for the World Cup, solely to make more money
That was reported here with "Everyone will profit from this (decision)" Infantino quote in some headlines. It's like FIFA is run by the Ferengi... /s
That was reported here with "Everyone will profit from this (decision)" Infantino quote in some headlines. It's like FIFA is run by the Ferengi... /s
> Infantino is trying to introduce a two-year schedule for the World Cup, solely to make more money
You can't deny that there are serious advantages of a World cup every two years (currently even the best players with long careers can't hope to play more than 4 World Cups - even 17 year old debutants like Bellingham and Pedri, so their chances of winning one are slim; there are many good teams that deserve to win, so giving more options can result in more winners, etc.), and it isn't unprecedented, the AFC and Copa America are already on such a schedule.
You can't deny that there are serious advantages of a World cup every two years (currently even the best players with long careers can't hope to play more than 4 World Cups - even 17 year old debutants like Bellingham and Pedri, so their chances of winning one are slim; there are many good teams that deserve to win, so giving more options can result in more winners, etc.), and it isn't unprecedented, the AFC and Copa America are already on such a schedule.
The problem is, how are the European players supposed to keep up that schedule? At least here in Germany, calendars are already stretched to the maximum particularly for the elite clubs that employ the most national team players: Bundesliga, DFB-Pokal, Supercup on the national side, European League, Champions League, Club World Cup internationally, and on top of that the load from the national team games with friendlies, trainings and every two years either UEFA European Championship or FIFA World Championship. And on top of that come PR appointments from sponsors and actual training.
With all that load, players rarely have the time to recover from games, that plus the ever rising speed and run distance leads to more injuries, which again the players can't naturally recover from. It's a rat race to the bottom, and the players get ground down only so that advertisers can get more exposure for ads and random dictatorships can whitewash their crimes.
And it's not just the players that can't keep up any more, the fans can't either. Traveling is expensive and annoying, particularly for games during the week (attending a "Montagsspiel" means two days worth of vacation), international travel for the cups means plane tickets and hotel stays and that eats up money really quick.
With all that load, players rarely have the time to recover from games, that plus the ever rising speed and run distance leads to more injuries, which again the players can't naturally recover from. It's a rat race to the bottom, and the players get ground down only so that advertisers can get more exposure for ads and random dictatorships can whitewash their crimes.
And it's not just the players that can't keep up any more, the fans can't either. Traveling is expensive and annoying, particularly for games during the week (attending a "Montagsspiel" means two days worth of vacation), international travel for the cups means plane tickets and hotel stays and that eats up money really quick.
Yes, the calendar is stretched, but in non-cup years, summers have a few months off. Switching from 2/4 to 3/4 summers having an international competition ( for European players, as i already mentioned African and South American ones already have competition every two years) doesn't really change that much. Even with a competition in the summer, players still get at least a month vacation ( Pedri, who played in the Euros and the Olympics got at least 3 weeks, the minimum allowed, and he certainly was an outlier ( and is now paying for it with injuries)).
Furthermore, more competitions and more matches means more opportunities for more players to play a part.
> And it's not just the players that can't keep up any more, the fans can't either. Traveling is expensive and annoying, particularly for games during the week (attending a "Montagsspiel" means two days worth of vacation), international travel for the cups means plane tickets and hotel stays and that eats up money really quick.
Not every fan needs to see every game in a stadium. More games, more chances for more fans to visit. With a World Cup every two years, demand will probably be slightly lower/spread out, meaning more fans overall can go see the games. Not to mention that a World Cup every two years means much more host countries, which can be huge, for local fans and the sport locally. There'd be more shared hosts, hopefully close together. I'd love to see more neighbouring countries host, and i bet many countries and many fans in those countries would love to as well, especially for countries where qualifying to be a part of the thing isn't always an option.
Furthermore, more competitions and more matches means more opportunities for more players to play a part.
> And it's not just the players that can't keep up any more, the fans can't either. Traveling is expensive and annoying, particularly for games during the week (attending a "Montagsspiel" means two days worth of vacation), international travel for the cups means plane tickets and hotel stays and that eats up money really quick.
Not every fan needs to see every game in a stadium. More games, more chances for more fans to visit. With a World Cup every two years, demand will probably be slightly lower/spread out, meaning more fans overall can go see the games. Not to mention that a World Cup every two years means much more host countries, which can be huge, for local fans and the sport locally. There'd be more shared hosts, hopefully close together. I'd love to see more neighbouring countries host, and i bet many countries and many fans in those countries would love to as well, especially for countries where qualifying to be a part of the thing isn't always an option.
> Furthermore, more competitions and more matches means more opportunities for more players to play a part.
In reality, coaches are under pressure to always put up an A-level selection. For the FC Bayern, that means Manuel Neuer between the goalposts no matter if the opponent is FC Chelsea or Greuther Fürth (the current bottom of the Bundesliga). The only scenarios outside of regulars being injured where coaches are fine to experiment with B/C level players are friendlies, training matches and irrelevant games (UEFA CL group phase, when the result of the last game does not matter).
> Not to mention that a World Cup every two years means much more host countries, which can be huge, for local fans and the sport locally.
Unfortunately, a World Cup requires large, expensive stadiums - billions of dollars, usually borne by the tax payers. In countries like the US or most of Europe, it is economically feasible to either use existing stadiums or build new ones (like Germany did) that get used for decades afterwards. In countries without a large (!) football fan community, these will all either rot or cause massive financial losses for their upkeep - like what happened in Brazil and South Africa [1] or Russia [2]. Qatar will likely be even worse, they already plan on one of the stadiums being torn down directly after the World Cup [3].
Not to mention the supporting infrastructure (public transport, hotels, press venues, roads) - if the stadiums aren't used to capacity, that's a lot of waste there too.
> I'd love to see more neighbouring countries host
That only spreads the expense, but the waste will be the same. A World Cup (and for that matter, also Olympic Games) only make sense in countries that can use the infrastructure at the designed scale for decades.
[1]: https://www.musikexpress.de/millionen-projekte-was-aus-den-w...
[2]: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/fussball-wm/hohe-kosten-ka...
[3]: https://www.stern.de/sport/fussball/wm-2022-in-katar--neugeb...
In reality, coaches are under pressure to always put up an A-level selection. For the FC Bayern, that means Manuel Neuer between the goalposts no matter if the opponent is FC Chelsea or Greuther Fürth (the current bottom of the Bundesliga). The only scenarios outside of regulars being injured where coaches are fine to experiment with B/C level players are friendlies, training matches and irrelevant games (UEFA CL group phase, when the result of the last game does not matter).
> Not to mention that a World Cup every two years means much more host countries, which can be huge, for local fans and the sport locally.
Unfortunately, a World Cup requires large, expensive stadiums - billions of dollars, usually borne by the tax payers. In countries like the US or most of Europe, it is economically feasible to either use existing stadiums or build new ones (like Germany did) that get used for decades afterwards. In countries without a large (!) football fan community, these will all either rot or cause massive financial losses for their upkeep - like what happened in Brazil and South Africa [1] or Russia [2]. Qatar will likely be even worse, they already plan on one of the stadiums being torn down directly after the World Cup [3].
Not to mention the supporting infrastructure (public transport, hotels, press venues, roads) - if the stadiums aren't used to capacity, that's a lot of waste there too.
> I'd love to see more neighbouring countries host
That only spreads the expense, but the waste will be the same. A World Cup (and for that matter, also Olympic Games) only make sense in countries that can use the infrastructure at the designed scale for decades.
[1]: https://www.musikexpress.de/millionen-projekte-was-aus-den-w...
[2]: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/fussball-wm/hohe-kosten-ka...
[3]: https://www.stern.de/sport/fussball/wm-2022-in-katar--neugeb...
Well, to be a bit cynical: a hardcore fan might attend a World Cup every four years now. If he (and it's mostly likely 'he') stick to that schedule even if more World Cups are held, his expenses won't go up.
The teams that are good enough get sponsord and can afford travel. The others don't need to go.
Unfortunately it does seem like this is the direction football is taking. A World Cup every 2 years, some sort of exclusive Super League, etc etc. Football is a trillion dollar market with no cap in site. The fans are slowly being left behind whilst the "new money" of the Middle East and co are doing their best to takeover. They still don't seem to realise however, that football is 0 without fans.
New money in Middle East and Asia is exactly the reason for the proposed "Super League". Why should Manchester City play Watford on a regular Tuesday and Wolverhampton on Sunday. No one cares except fans from Manchester (and some smaller countries in Europe). If they instead could play against Barcelona, Juventus and Bayern every weekend there would be a wave of money coming from the Middle East and Asia where the fans don't know or care about football culture or history or the importance of the home league and cup. No disrespect to those fans at all, I'm just pointing out that it is a wholly commercial endeavor. Top tier football is business and I'm just glad I don't follow any of the big clubs in Europe. Give it a few years and they will start playing Super League (or whatever) matches in Singapore and Abu Dhabi. Fans at home left behind, but they don't care as the new fanbase in ME and Asia pumps a lot more money into the business.
I do hope that the European Union and the UK government step up should the situation ever get so dystopian. The fact that there was quick and brutal condemnation for the "Super League" plans from politics, the UEFA and the national leagues was a good sign.
Especially given the current de-globalization and nationalist sentiments in politics and the importance of football for politics as "panem et circenses", I expect anti-trust and even confiscation-scale action against oil sheik and Russian mob owners, should they attempt such a radical transformation of how football is played.
Especially given the current de-globalization and nationalist sentiments in politics and the importance of football for politics as "panem et circenses", I expect anti-trust and even confiscation-scale action against oil sheik and Russian mob owners, should they attempt such a radical transformation of how football is played.
> Give it a few years and they will start playing Super League (or whatever) matches in Singapore and Abu Dhabi.
At least there would be less corruption in the match played in Singapore..
At least there would be less corruption in the match played in Singapore..
> Infantino is trying to introduce a two-year schedule for the World Cup, solely to make more money.
That might be greedy, but it's not a sign of corruption in itself.
There's plenty of real corruption in FIFA to choose from.
That might be greedy, but it's not a sign of corruption in itself.
There's plenty of real corruption in FIFA to choose from.
> That might be greedy, but it's not a sign of corruption in itself.
Every world cup assignment of the last decades was loaded with corruption charges - including, to my shame as German, the 2006 World Cup.
More World Cups, more opportunities for grift and corruption. Not to mention that there aren't many stable democracies left willing to host World Cups, there's a reason why Qatar and Russia ended up hosting 2018/2022.
Every world cup assignment of the last decades was loaded with corruption charges - including, to my shame as German, the 2006 World Cup.
More World Cups, more opportunities for grift and corruption. Not to mention that there aren't many stable democracies left willing to host World Cups, there's a reason why Qatar and Russia ended up hosting 2018/2022.
> Not to mention that there aren't many stable democracies left willing to host World Cups, there's a reason why Qatar and Russia ended up hosting 2018/2022.
Nah, stable places are totally willing to host, if it was offered to them. They are just not willing to bid as high as Qatar and Russia were. (Where bidding is informal, basically how much bribery you were willing to do.)
> Every world cup assignment of the last decades was loaded with corruption charges - including, to my shame as German, the 2006 World Cup.
I can believe that. But the amount of money in bribes is still relatively trivial compared to the total amount they make from the World Cup.
(In general, what's so infuriating about bribes and corruption is how low the stakes are. If someone is willing to sell out their country for a few billion Euros, I wouldn't be mad. But have a look at eg the paltry sums that changed hands in the CDU-Spendenaffäre. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDU-Spendenaff%C3%A4re They are talking about mere millions.
Compare also https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in... )
Nah, stable places are totally willing to host, if it was offered to them. They are just not willing to bid as high as Qatar and Russia were. (Where bidding is informal, basically how much bribery you were willing to do.)
> Every world cup assignment of the last decades was loaded with corruption charges - including, to my shame as German, the 2006 World Cup.
I can believe that. But the amount of money in bribes is still relatively trivial compared to the total amount they make from the World Cup.
(In general, what's so infuriating about bribes and corruption is how low the stakes are. If someone is willing to sell out their country for a few billion Euros, I wouldn't be mad. But have a look at eg the paltry sums that changed hands in the CDU-Spendenaffäre. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDU-Spendenaff%C3%A4re They are talking about mere millions.
Compare also https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in... )
How can you differentiate a corrupt organization cleaning house and replacing corrupt officials with honest ones, and a corrupt organization appearing to clean house and replacing known corrupt officials with ones that have yet to be proven to be corrupt yet?
Stuff like this makes me proud to be an American, where soccer is totally ignored; instead we thoroughly enjoy successful sports where virtually everyone cheats, like baseball
As an on-the-spectrum brit who was forced to play "footie" at 9:15am in 5degC frosty september mornings by uncaring, unsympathetic, if not abusive, PE "teachers" at my comprehensive secondary from age 11 to age 16, and previously bullied in primary-school to the point where I tried to hang myself in the toilets with my school uniform tie at 8 because I didn't support any football team and didn't collect those stupid football stickers - stuff like this makes me just feel despondent at the utter lack of any redeeming values in association football.
Burn it to the ground.
Burn it to the ground.
Unfortunately, as a life long fan of football in the UK, this rings true from the opposite side, and I'm sorry you had to go through that.
However, the sport itself has nothing todo with the bigger picture here. It just so happens that it's the biggest sport in the world, hence worth so much money to $REGIME who will do anything they can to capitalise.
However, the sport itself has nothing todo with the bigger picture here. It just so happens that it's the biggest sport in the world, hence worth so much money to $REGIME who will do anything they can to capitalise.
I also haven't fully understood the point he's making, like "A shitty person just made me suffer to play a sport, fuck the sport", like wtf
Association football, itself, in isolation, is a fine game. There's nothing inherently bad about it. If actual friends of mine want a kick-around then sure, I'm game.
But it's the culture around the sport in the UK, and greater Europe, that's awful. Remember hooligan "firms" in the 1990s? Those things don't happen in a vacuum. Chiefly, the football culture in the UK is inextricably tied to the entrenched class system, in the worst ways, unfortunately - and I haven't seen the Premier League's televised pundits ever advise their fans to maybe, perhaps, actually be good ambassadors for the sport to the rest of us.
(Okay, Michael Owen is an exception - my perception is the rest are like Eric Cantona: officially reprimanded, but we can tell people are lapping up his then abhorrent personal conduct. The same way people support Trump, I suppose).
FIFA aren't running a tight-ship from the top. The tiers under them aren't coming close, and the conceptual levels below are only worse.
But it's the culture around the sport in the UK, and greater Europe, that's awful. Remember hooligan "firms" in the 1990s? Those things don't happen in a vacuum. Chiefly, the football culture in the UK is inextricably tied to the entrenched class system, in the worst ways, unfortunately - and I haven't seen the Premier League's televised pundits ever advise their fans to maybe, perhaps, actually be good ambassadors for the sport to the rest of us.
(Okay, Michael Owen is an exception - my perception is the rest are like Eric Cantona: officially reprimanded, but we can tell people are lapping up his then abhorrent personal conduct. The same way people support Trump, I suppose).
FIFA aren't running a tight-ship from the top. The tiers under them aren't coming close, and the conceptual levels below are only worse.
I have issues agreeing with you, I am more willing to think that certain issues are more about the system segregating classes, not educating or giving chances, than violence exists because of football, then of course football is more accessible as you can play it with a paper ball, and has bigger numbers? I would say that violence would still come out as it's there and (used to come?) comes out with football, what should we do? Only follow sports that require better social status and more expensive tools?
Or like yeah there are some example of players that were violent and crazy, as you can find in any place with a number of humans doing it, I'd say HSBC was laudering cartels money and funding terrorist, all bankers are criminals?
Or like yeah there are some example of players that were violent and crazy, as you can find in any place with a number of humans doing it, I'd say HSBC was laudering cartels money and funding terrorist, all bankers are criminals?
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> Association football, itself, in isolation, is a fine game. There's nothing inherently bad about it.
Actually one can argue that the rules in football haven't kept up with the evolution of humans. When they defined the size of a goal, the average adult male was a full 10 cm shorter than they are today. People are running faster and jumping higher.
The sport would be a lot more exciting if you increased the physical dimensions of goals and pitches, so you would have 10 goals in an average game instead of 0 to 3.
Actually one can argue that the rules in football haven't kept up with the evolution of humans. When they defined the size of a goal, the average adult male was a full 10 cm shorter than they are today. People are running faster and jumping higher.
The sport would be a lot more exciting if you increased the physical dimensions of goals and pitches, so you would have 10 goals in an average game instead of 0 to 3.
Average goals per game has been 2.6 - 2.7 since 1962. Highest was 1954 with 5.38.
10 goals has never been an average, to reach that, the goals should be twice the size at least.
I don't thing the size of the goal or people getting taller / faster is the reason we don't see many scoring. A big problem for me is the amount of downtime and the amount of foulplaying. Schwalbes are a real skill. Players fall to the ground way too quickly.
Smaller field would make things more interesting.
10 goals has never been an average, to reach that, the goals should be twice the size at least.
I don't thing the size of the goal or people getting taller / faster is the reason we don't see many scoring. A big problem for me is the amount of downtime and the amount of foulplaying. Schwalbes are a real skill. Players fall to the ground way too quickly.
Smaller field would make things more interesting.
My father says that one of the reasons football is so popular is because it is low scoring.
In high scoring games, the best team on the day tends to win.
In low scoring games, there are more upsets, as a single moment can have a greater impact.
Therefore even if your team is objectively worse, you go to the game with some hope in your heart.
Making football into a high scoring game could ruin it.
In high scoring games, the best team on the day tends to win.
In low scoring games, there are more upsets, as a single moment can have a greater impact.
Therefore even if your team is objectively worse, you go to the game with some hope in your heart.
Making football into a high scoring game could ruin it.
I'm not a huge football fan, but I'd argue part of the excitement of the sport comes from the fact that it is low soring - individual goals matter a lot, rather than just being a minor tick towards the overall score. Higher scoring games could dull those moments significantly.
> The sport would be a lot more exciting if you [suggested changes]
Do note soccer is currently tremendously exciting for millions of fans worldwide. I understand you mean well, and everyone is free to suggest changes (some of them good), but the sport right now is very exciting for huge numbers of people.
Informally it's a tremendously easy and fun game to pick up. Any kid with a foot ball and some room can play with their friends. It's even how some players start.
I don't think excitement is the biggest issue with football. The biggest issues are probably corruption in the business organizations around it, violence due to hooligans, etc.
Do note soccer is currently tremendously exciting for millions of fans worldwide. I understand you mean well, and everyone is free to suggest changes (some of them good), but the sport right now is very exciting for huge numbers of people.
Informally it's a tremendously easy and fun game to pick up. Any kid with a foot ball and some room can play with their friends. It's even how some players start.
I don't think excitement is the biggest issue with football. The biggest issues are probably corruption in the business organizations around it, violence due to hooligans, etc.
No thanks, we don't want it to become basketball.
I've never met a football fan in my life that complains about there not being 'enough goals'.
What an american take that is.
I've never met a football fan in my life that complains about there not being 'enough goals'.
What an american take that is.
Yeah I was thinking exactly the same thing about basketball, if you think scoring should be worthless then just watch that :D
When sports are so high scoring and close with so many goals they just boil down to the last 5 mins of the game being the only part that actually matters.
Having grown up in America right when soccer was inching towards popularity, and having then lived in Europe for many years, I've always been puzzled by the violence associated with the game.
I can easily see it being a class-related thing in the UK, but the wealthy and cultured are very much into football in, say, Italy and Germany.
I'm very glad that kind of sports-violence culture isn't a worldwide thing, and it makes me sad that the same sport can be innocent enough to be associated with suburban "soccer moms" in one place, while celebrating the wrong team can get you killed in another place.
I can easily see it being a class-related thing in the UK, but the wealthy and cultured are very much into football in, say, Italy and Germany.
I'm very glad that kind of sports-violence culture isn't a worldwide thing, and it makes me sad that the same sport can be innocent enough to be associated with suburban "soccer moms" in one place, while celebrating the wrong team can get you killed in another place.
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their point is made for themselves. Learn to recognize cathartic human expressions, it helped them that they wrote it out and looked at it.
> However, the sport itself has nothing todo with the bigger picture here.
I have a book that convincingly makes the case that physical exercise, sports, is a favorite tool of the fascist. To my knowledge, it's never translated from Dutch, but I think there must be research on this in English as well.
I have a book that convincingly makes the case that physical exercise, sports, is a favorite tool of the fascist. To my knowledge, it's never translated from Dutch, but I think there must be research on this in English as well.
Ahem, it sounds like your problem is not with some people enjoying a sport, but with being bullied and forced to do what you don't like?
(I don't like football either; neither watching nor playing, but I don't mind if other people engage in it.)
(I don't like football either; neither watching nor playing, but I don't mind if other people engage in it.)
I'm sorry you had that experience. The school system failed you by not helping you as a victim of bullying.
That being said football is a source of joy, entertainment, and camaraderie to hundreds of millions of people around the planet. There's really no "lack of any redeeming values in football". You should perhaps come to a grassroots football match, away from the multi-billion dollar dirty business the sport at a highest level has become, to see that.
That being said football is a source of joy, entertainment, and camaraderie to hundreds of millions of people around the planet. There's really no "lack of any redeeming values in football". You should perhaps come to a grassroots football match, away from the multi-billion dollar dirty business the sport at a highest level has become, to see that.
Oh good, I’m sorry to hear that. I was also bullied mostly because I was fat in primary school so i sucked at playing sports. But I still liked to watch football and play fifa afterwards, like i think in secondary school it all changed and I became a fan
On the flipside of this i think i learnt a lot about myself on the rugby pitch around this age.
There is a lot to take away from it, simple things like organisation and schedule keeping to team building, sportsmanship and determination.
Cold winter morning / evenings on the pitch or at the lake made me a better person im sure.
There is a lot to take away from it, simple things like organisation and schedule keeping to team building, sportsmanship and determination.
Cold winter morning / evenings on the pitch or at the lake made me a better person im sure.
I know it's a terrible cliche but the old joke that "Football is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans, and Rugby is a hooligans’ game played by gentlemen" isn't entirely inaccurate.
I had to play football at the extremely low ranking state school I went to and found the whole experience utterly miserable. My son attended a public school and played rugby there and I enjoyed watching him play and he seemed to get a lot out of it, while the on the pitch experience was far rougher than football the culture around the game seemed far more civilised. Of course that could just be the context of the different type of school but I thought it went deeper than that.
Edit: A nice touch at our school PE department was that they were mostly ex Paras and they seemed to treat us more like recruits than schoolkids. There was one ex Royal Marine who while working us just as hard was at least good natured about it, whereas the others seemed to be in a state of continual anger.
I had to play football at the extremely low ranking state school I went to and found the whole experience utterly miserable. My son attended a public school and played rugby there and I enjoyed watching him play and he seemed to get a lot out of it, while the on the pitch experience was far rougher than football the culture around the game seemed far more civilised. Of course that could just be the context of the different type of school but I thought it went deeper than that.
Edit: A nice touch at our school PE department was that they were mostly ex Paras and they seemed to treat us more like recruits than schoolkids. There was one ex Royal Marine who while working us just as hard was at least good natured about it, whereas the others seemed to be in a state of continual anger.
For non-British readers: a public school in Britain might not be what you expect it to be. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_school_(United_Kingdom)
> "Football is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans, and Rugby is a hooligans’ game played by gentlemen"
In Argentina at least, football is linked to the people, low and upper class; it's a "popular" sport. In contrast, Rugby is linked to the elite; mostly well to do spoiled kids (in the public perception, at least). There were a couple of beatings/murders linked to spoiled rich kids who were Rugby players, enough that in our public perception today a Rugby player is definitely not considered a "gentleman" but a rich brat potentially prone to violence.
In Argentina at least, football is linked to the people, low and upper class; it's a "popular" sport. In contrast, Rugby is linked to the elite; mostly well to do spoiled kids (in the public perception, at least). There were a couple of beatings/murders linked to spoiled rich kids who were Rugby players, enough that in our public perception today a Rugby player is definitely not considered a "gentleman" but a rich brat potentially prone to violence.
There is definitely an element of elitism in the UK around rugby, I can't deny that.
However, I'd draw the comparison between a large crowd of rugby supporters leaving a match and a similar sized crowd of football supporters. I used to live near the Easter Road football ground in Edinburgh and that was pretty unpleasant and threatening on match days (particularly when Glasgow Rangers were playing...). I've never encountered the same level of sheer nastiness from a rugby crowd (and Edinburgh gets a lot of them) as from football crowd.
I remember once getting the last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh the day of an Old Firm match - one set of supporters at one end of the carriage, the other set of supporters at the other end and a few of us non-combatants sitting in the middle desperately trying to pretend that nothing was happening. That was fun.
NB Scotland does have a weird sectarian angle to football which doesn't help - although I don't think this is nearly as bad as it used to be.
However, I'd draw the comparison between a large crowd of rugby supporters leaving a match and a similar sized crowd of football supporters. I used to live near the Easter Road football ground in Edinburgh and that was pretty unpleasant and threatening on match days (particularly when Glasgow Rangers were playing...). I've never encountered the same level of sheer nastiness from a rugby crowd (and Edinburgh gets a lot of them) as from football crowd.
I remember once getting the last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh the day of an Old Firm match - one set of supporters at one end of the carriage, the other set of supporters at the other end and a few of us non-combatants sitting in the middle desperately trying to pretend that nothing was happening. That was fun.
NB Scotland does have a weird sectarian angle to football which doesn't help - although I don't think this is nearly as bad as it used to be.
Oh, the fans can be rough, agreed! Not a soccer fan and so I don't go to watch matches (TV set for me, if at all). But yes, rival football fans can get nasty. They scare me.
I was thinking more about the actual players. It's also not a real statistic, just public perception: that Rugby players are spoiled rich kids prone to beating up other kids if they don't like the color of their skin.
I was thinking more about the actual players. It's also not a real statistic, just public perception: that Rugby players are spoiled rich kids prone to beating up other kids if they don't like the color of their skin.
> Football is a gentleman's game played by ruffians, and rugby is a ruffian's game played by gentlemen.
Jesus Christ. That is not a healthy outlook on things.
With apologies for the hyperbole. Theres nothing wrong with the sport, I want to stress that. What I want to see gone is the corrupt FIFA as its officiating body, and I want to see the background culture of the football scene, where empathy is “gay” and where any complaint, regardless of legitimacy, is dismissed as “whinging”, turned on its head.
Nah man, all good. No need to explain yourself.
It was just a bit sad to read, as it sounds exactly like something my grandfather would say. He's in his mid-to-late 70s now and still eaten up by things that happened in his childhood and early 20s (things that plenty of other people go through and don't allow to destroy their entire life).
His inability to deal with it in a healthy way has made the last 5 decades of his life miserable, and it kills me to see another person go through this as well.
I understand this is not a simple task for the average Aspie, but please try to understand what happened and integrate it into your outlook in a way that allows you to function as a healthy adult.
It was just a bit sad to read, as it sounds exactly like something my grandfather would say. He's in his mid-to-late 70s now and still eaten up by things that happened in his childhood and early 20s (things that plenty of other people go through and don't allow to destroy their entire life).
His inability to deal with it in a healthy way has made the last 5 decades of his life miserable, and it kills me to see another person go through this as well.
I understand this is not a simple task for the average Aspie, but please try to understand what happened and integrate it into your outlook in a way that allows you to function as a healthy adult.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the USA men’s team would become world champion within a few decades. The sport is growing rapidly in Spanish-speaking areas, Spanish-speakers are the fastest growing linguistic group in the United States, the country is sport-minded, and the USA men’s team already is ranked 11th in the world (https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/men?dateId=id13505) (ahead of Germany!)
It wouldn’t surprise me if the USA men’s team would become world champion within a few decades. The sport is growing rapidly in Spanish-speaking areas, Spanish-speakers are the fastest growing linguistic group in the United States, the country is sport-minded, and the USA men’s team already is ranked 11th in the world (https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/men?dateId=id13505) (ahead of Germany!)
“The United States women's national soccer team […] is the most successful in international women's soccer, winning four Women's World Cup titles (1991, 1999, 2015, and 2019), four Olympic gold medals (1996, 2004, 2008, and 2012), and eight CONCACAF Gold Cups.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_women%27s_nati...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_women%27s_nati...
You mean world champion as-in, they might win a World Cup? Or as in they will dominate utterly?
The former seems reasonably plausible, if the trends you mention hold true.
The former seems reasonably plausible, if the trends you mention hold true.
The first. Remember:
- Iceland (population 350,000 or so) reached the quarter finals of the European championships, a tournament with, probably, stronger teams in the finals than the world championships. Only 13 teams from Europe can qualify for the latter. Looking at the world rankings, all of those are in the top 20 of the world, and, for example, Serbia, at 23 wouldn’t make it to the final 32.
- South Korea ended fourth at the world’s, mostly by wanting it more.
I don’t see why the USA wouldn’t be able to better than those, certainly if they get a bit of luck on their side.
- Iceland (population 350,000 or so) reached the quarter finals of the European championships, a tournament with, probably, stronger teams in the finals than the world championships. Only 13 teams from Europe can qualify for the latter. Looking at the world rankings, all of those are in the top 20 of the world, and, for example, Serbia, at 23 wouldn’t make it to the final 32.
- South Korea ended fourth at the world’s, mostly by wanting it more.
I don’t see why the USA wouldn’t be able to better than those, certainly if they get a bit of luck on their side.
Please don't mistake the amount of luck that went into those results. The ability to consistently challenge top teams is the mark of a top team, not one-off results where luck was on your side and against your opponents.
Remember, Greece won Euro 2004 but have struggled since, often not even qualifying. Greece are not a good team. Period. By the same token, just because the Netherlands failed to qualify once or because Germany were knocked out in the first round of a world cup, that does not make either a weak team - they just had an off-day.
All said, i agree with the original point - i won't be surprised if the USA men's football team is a force to reckon with in the next decade. Same goes for the Canadian men's team.
Remember, Greece won Euro 2004 but have struggled since, often not even qualifying. Greece are not a good team. Period. By the same token, just because the Netherlands failed to qualify once or because Germany were knocked out in the first round of a world cup, that does not make either a weak team - they just had an off-day.
All said, i agree with the original point - i won't be surprised if the USA men's football team is a force to reckon with in the next decade. Same goes for the Canadian men's team.
> Greece are not a good team. Period.
The Greek team from today and from 2004 do not share a single member, do they?
Of course, you could argue that some institutional factors persist?
The Greek team from today and from 2004 do not share a single member, do they?
Of course, you could argue that some institutional factors persist?
Germany competes in Europe, while the US competes in the confederation of oceania or something like that. Even with some corrections for the strength of the opponents, such comparison has weaknesses.
As always, such rankings do not always reflect true rankings (if only because that isn’t a transitive relation), but FIFA uses an Elo-like system that tries to compensate for the strengths of opponents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Rankings#2018_ranki...)
That’s reflected in the fact that, currently, 8 of the top 10 countries are from Europe (the other two are the usual suspects Brazil and Argentina)
One difference is that, unlike in chess, there still are many uneven matches. If you’re Liechtenstein, Andorra, or Gibraltar, for example, you’ll play lots of qualifiers against Spain, France, Germany, and the like (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Nations_League corrects that a bit, giving such teams much better chances to tie or even win games). You don’t see such things in chess.
That’s reflected in the fact that, currently, 8 of the top 10 countries are from Europe (the other two are the usual suspects Brazil and Argentina)
One difference is that, unlike in chess, there still are many uneven matches. If you’re Liechtenstein, Andorra, or Gibraltar, for example, you’ll play lots of qualifiers against Spain, France, Germany, and the like (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Nations_League corrects that a bit, giving such teams much better chances to tie or even win games). You don’t see such things in chess.
Let's not forget about our Olympic sports. Perhaps the massive sex abuse scandal in gymnastics?
Isn't stadium building in the US wrapped in scandals since the taxpayers foot the bill for which private enterprises profit, while american football and basketball the source of several scandals where college athletes are basically unpaid slaves, exploited by advertising and entertainment corporations?
I remember both John Oliver and South Park covered these topics.
Not trying to switch topics or go whataboutism but I'm genuinely concerned about the massive corruption and exploitation around the modern sports industry that's somehow become acceptable nowadays, with FIFA being the richest and most corrupt non profit in the world.
This current situation reminds me of the "bread and games" popularity near the fall of the Roman empire.
I remember both John Oliver and South Park covered these topics.
Not trying to switch topics or go whataboutism but I'm genuinely concerned about the massive corruption and exploitation around the modern sports industry that's somehow become acceptable nowadays, with FIFA being the richest and most corrupt non profit in the world.
This current situation reminds me of the "bread and games" popularity near the fall of the Roman empire.
There's a great documentary on this subject by Michael Bertin:
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/throwabillion
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/throwabillion
I'm not sure "scandal" is the correct word for stadium funding. It's not like any of it is a secret, it's all done out in the open. People just don't pay attention. And the tide does appear to be turning on that, since the newest and by far most expensive NFL stadium (SoFi Stadium in LA) was privately funded.
This has changed recently, of course...now college football and basketball players can have endorsement deals and such.
Though at least in Rome the politicians paid for the games themselves.
(Of course, where they got that wealth is another question.)
(Of course, where they got that wealth is another question.)
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Yes. As a football fan, I have decided to be doing something else entirely for the duration of the World Cup. I think the underclass that has suffered while building the infrastructure deserve some form of recognition.
> A winter world cup
The World Cup is played in winter every year if you live below the equator.
The World Cup is played in winter every year if you live below the equator.
The problem isn’t the season itself, it’s the disruption to domestic league schedules.
That's a very europe centric comment. As if the only leagues that matter are theirs, the rest of the world will have to adjust.
I’m in the US, so…
The point is that the World Cup has previously taken place at a consistent time of year, every time. If they made this change as part of a plan to distribute league disruption globally then we’d talk about it as such, but they made this change as part of a corrupt voting system that led to a bad decision with a load of fallout they’re still trying to work out.
The point is that the World Cup has previously taken place at a consistent time of year, every time. If they made this change as part of a plan to distribute league disruption globally then we’d talk about it as such, but they made this change as part of a corrupt voting system that led to a bad decision with a load of fallout they’re still trying to work out.
I mean considering the fact that all the very best players play in Europe, and that's how seasons have been scheduled for the longest time, it does make sense
But many domestic league schedules are during northern hemisphere winter.
“Winter” is the period when it’s dark and cold on the northern hemisphere. Southern Hemisphere folks will have to invent their on term. Like Swinter.
> It seems that FIFA isn't exactly free of corruption
Is there a Nobel Prize for Understatement? I'll like to make a nomination.
Is there a Nobel Prize for Understatement? I'll like to make a nomination.
> It seems that FIFA isn't exactly free of corruption
That must be the understatement of the century!
That must be the understatement of the century!
Quote: "It seems that FIFA isn't exactly free of corruption"
This is THE understatement of the year, if such a race would be held your comment would win by a mile.
Allow me to make the point more clear. If a race would be held for the overstatement of the year, the comment "FIFA's last years of its over a century lifespan was the freest of corruption" would win by a mile.
This is THE understatement of the year, if such a race would be held your comment would win by a mile.
Allow me to make the point more clear. If a race would be held for the overstatement of the year, the comment "FIFA's last years of its over a century lifespan was the freest of corruption" would win by a mile.
yeah, the F1 can do what ever they want, but not football?
the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to money is what will cause it to become extinct within the next century..
too much corruption at every level
also too much politics, what brits are trying to achieve here?
that reminds me of the attempts to kill the UEFA Champions League with what ever the US had cooked
the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to money is what will cause it to become extinct within the next century..
too much corruption at every level
also too much politics, what brits are trying to achieve here?
that reminds me of the attempts to kill the UEFA Champions League with what ever the US had cooked
> It seems that FIFA isn't exactly free of corruption
John Oliver has made a great summary of FIFA's darker side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJEt2KU33I
John Oliver has made a great summary of FIFA's darker side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJEt2KU33I
When there's big money to be made there is corruption, take a look at for example the pharmaceutical industry.
Its not as bad as Argentina 1976.
And people are not ignorant. They never are.
But the show must go on.
The tendency by FIFA and especially UEFA to prioritize money for its partners and for its officials above principles and sport has turned me away from organized football. I find it repugnant that when BBC and The Guardian (among others) reported back in 2013 on Qatar’s labor conditions in sweltering heat, the deaths, and what is essentially slavery to build stadiums, it was met by the football community and larger news media with a resounding thud. It wasn’t until the last few years that footballers who had nothing to lose started to speak their minds. It’s honestly disgusting to me to the point where I don’t know when I’ll ever want to watch the World Cup or Champion’s League again.
I used to get excited by these events because the sport still seemed to be prioritized and people got genuinely excited by seeing talent rise to the level. I came of age hearing just how good Messi would become after his early appearance for Argentina in 2006 I think. His rise has witnessed the transition to players representing teams and entire brands. It hardly feels like sport but lifestyle, prestige, and entertainment, something Qatar is desperately trying to purchase as their oil money starts to dry up.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-24394971
Maybe there was earlier reporting on this but this was the best I could do on my phone.
I used to get excited by these events because the sport still seemed to be prioritized and people got genuinely excited by seeing talent rise to the level. I came of age hearing just how good Messi would become after his early appearance for Argentina in 2006 I think. His rise has witnessed the transition to players representing teams and entire brands. It hardly feels like sport but lifestyle, prestige, and entertainment, something Qatar is desperately trying to purchase as their oil money starts to dry up.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-24394971
Maybe there was earlier reporting on this but this was the best I could do on my phone.
So long as FIFA is completely rotten and thinks “one country one vote” is a good idea, this will be the norm. World Cups and nomination of officials will be done by those countries that can afford to pay poor/small/corrupt countries for votes. We should expect to see Petrostate dictatorships (and China) hold world cups and Olympics more and more often. Not sure what the solution is, but my first attempt act fixing FIFA would be to dismantle it and start a new org without the voting system of the current one. Even “only World Cup qualified states from the past decade can vote” would be an improvement on the status quo.
> I find it repugnant that when BBC and The Guardian (among others) reported back in 2013 on Qatar’s labor conditions in sweltering heat, the deaths, and essential slavery to build stadiums, it met the football community and larger news media with a resounding thud.
Unfortunately, human rights violations don't interest anyone anymore, unless they are of political interest to someone (e.g. the butchering of Jamal Khashoggi).
The UN is a dead paper tiger, with the US, China and Russia in the Human Rights Commission and the Security Council each protecting themselves and their respective allies from consequences.
The US only care about wherever they see economic interests (Iraq!), the EU is too fractured and under the economic thumbs of Russia (gas) and China (cheap goods, destination for German cars), and China and Russia don't give any fuck about human rights.
We live in a world of the strongest, not in a world based on the global rule of law. And I fear it might take another World War or an alien invasion for humanity to finally overcome that. The alternative, and this is where I fear the planet is heading, is China exporting its questionable ideas of authoritarianism across the world.
Unfortunately, human rights violations don't interest anyone anymore, unless they are of political interest to someone (e.g. the butchering of Jamal Khashoggi).
The UN is a dead paper tiger, with the US, China and Russia in the Human Rights Commission and the Security Council each protecting themselves and their respective allies from consequences.
The US only care about wherever they see economic interests (Iraq!), the EU is too fractured and under the economic thumbs of Russia (gas) and China (cheap goods, destination for German cars), and China and Russia don't give any fuck about human rights.
We live in a world of the strongest, not in a world based on the global rule of law. And I fear it might take another World War or an alien invasion for humanity to finally overcome that. The alternative, and this is where I fear the planet is heading, is China exporting its questionable ideas of authoritarianism across the world.
As it always has been. Decentralization is key, power to the people.
Hard to stand up against Russia or China with any "decentralized" environment - this is what Europe currently experiences: a small nation like Lithuania alone is powerless against a bully.
We need more centralization (democratically backed, of course!), not less.
We need more centralization (democratically backed, of course!), not less.
Same for Olympics and Formula 1. They will always go where the money is and don't give a damn about human rights.
"In August, Amnesty released a report that documented that at least 15 000 migrant workers had died since Qatar was awarded the World Cup hosting rights in 2010."
If these figures are true, then no matter how 'successful' the World Cup 2022 turns out, it will always be tainted by these shameful figures.
If these figures are true, then no matter how 'successful' the World Cup 2022 turns out, it will always be tainted by these shameful figures.
Those figures need way more context.
In my country (Australia), there's about 1.05 million people in the age group 25-29 (which I assume most migrant workers are about, so should be a good baseline proxy), and 800 deaths per year in that age range.
By that baseline, Qatar, with it's 2ish million migrant workers, should see about 1,600 migrant worker deaths per year if everything is normal.
15,000 over 12 years seems on the low side, if anything. I'd be more worried about the 37 deaths they've specifically narrowed to employees working on the World Cup. But even then, same problem. How many people are working on the World Cup? If it's 1,000, then 37 deaths is ridiculous, but if it's 500,000 all doing stuff like construction and transport, it could easily be close to the safety profile of that work in other countries.
Australia has about 200 workplace deaths per year. 40 per year in construction with around 1.1 million employed in the industry. Qatar is claiming 20% of it's migrant workforce is in construction and 10% of fatalities in that group are from work related incidents. That puts them at 62.5 per year per million workers. About 50% higher than Australia's construction industry. Which isn't great, but it's also not outrageous unless Australia is an outlier too (I haven't looked at other countries yet).
In my country (Australia), there's about 1.05 million people in the age group 25-29 (which I assume most migrant workers are about, so should be a good baseline proxy), and 800 deaths per year in that age range.
By that baseline, Qatar, with it's 2ish million migrant workers, should see about 1,600 migrant worker deaths per year if everything is normal.
15,000 over 12 years seems on the low side, if anything. I'd be more worried about the 37 deaths they've specifically narrowed to employees working on the World Cup. But even then, same problem. How many people are working on the World Cup? If it's 1,000, then 37 deaths is ridiculous, but if it's 500,000 all doing stuff like construction and transport, it could easily be close to the safety profile of that work in other countries.
Australia has about 200 workplace deaths per year. 40 per year in construction with around 1.1 million employed in the industry. Qatar is claiming 20% of it's migrant workforce is in construction and 10% of fatalities in that group are from work related incidents. That puts them at 62.5 per year per million workers. About 50% higher than Australia's construction industry. Which isn't great, but it's also not outrageous unless Australia is an outlier too (I haven't looked at other countries yet).
When reporting says “migrant workers have died”, I’m assuming that is in workplace accidents alone, and not including any natural deaths or other causes such as illness.
This may or may not be the case but if there was free press, we’d have the full picture.
This may or may not be the case but if there was free press, we’d have the full picture.
A lot of sensational press relies on people making assumptions like that. Maybe they aren't tricking us in this case, but newspapers definitely do do that sort of thing all the time.
When there is no transparency the only thing you can do is assume the worst. Accurate reporting is a luxury afforded countries with transparency.
How many reports has Amnesty International written about migrant workers in Australia?? Please provide me links to the relevant papers.
If you can’t do that, stop making this argument. It’s insulting.
If you can’t do that, stop making this argument. It’s insulting.
[deleted]
Quoting the Amnesty article:
> Official Qatari statistics show that over 15,021 non-Qataris – of all ages and occupations – died between 2010 and 2019
I think it's worth putting the number into context. There's 2,300,000 non-Qataris in Qatar. 1,670 deaths per year puts the mortality rate at 0.72 per year per 1000 people. That's 10 times lower than the global mortality rate as of 2020.
> Official Qatari statistics show that over 15,021 non-Qataris – of all ages and occupations – died between 2010 and 2019
I think it's worth putting the number into context. There's 2,300,000 non-Qataris in Qatar. 1,670 deaths per year puts the mortality rate at 0.72 per year per 1000 people. That's 10 times lower than the global mortality rate as of 2020.
It looks like modern slavery. Labor rights nonexistent. Many of the dead are denied autopsy or a real explanation of their death, leading to possibilities of covering up the true cause of death. Given other factors, that's an extremely serious problem. See link [1].
Pragmatically (and very generously, in the situation) speaking, with no "positive feedback loop", no oversight, how can societies improve? Investigate the deaths and find ways improve the situation.
I'm not saying it's exactly like slavery, but with no transparency I don't want to be part of rationalising it and letting it pass unnoticed as if we didn't see it.
[1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/08/qatar-failure...
Pragmatically (and very generously, in the situation) speaking, with no "positive feedback loop", no oversight, how can societies improve? Investigate the deaths and find ways improve the situation.
I'm not saying it's exactly like slavery, but with no transparency I don't want to be part of rationalising it and letting it pass unnoticed as if we didn't see it.
[1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/08/qatar-failure...
The Kafala System that was in use in Qatar until 2016 was indeed modern slavery. Workers had their passports taken, and couldn't travel or change jobs without explicit permission from their employers. Living in Qatar I've experience first hand how people were exploited, dealing with delayed salaries, sometimes taking on second jobs, sending a majority of their income back home every month.
However I would say that things have improved significantly, and are continuing to improve. You speak of a lack of oversight, but the fact that we're in this thread discussing this issue means that there must be some oversight. From international bodies to individual journalists there's many people concerned about labour rights, and these concerns aren't something the Qatari government can just ignore, as evidenced by the numerous labour reforms.
However I would say that things have improved significantly, and are continuing to improve. You speak of a lack of oversight, but the fact that we're in this thread discussing this issue means that there must be some oversight. From international bodies to individual journalists there's many people concerned about labour rights, and these concerns aren't something the Qatari government can just ignore, as evidenced by the numerous labour reforms.
If you look at the work related death rate among workers in the US the number is 0.035 per 1000 people. So if the deaths are work related, it is a huge number compared to the US at least.
[https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm]
[https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm]
If we assume 100% of deaths over this 9 year period work workplace accidents, then yes, this number is alarming. However there's just no way that all of those deaths were work related. We can't know the true number, since there's a lack of trust towards the number provided by the Qatari Government. In the U.S. there were 2,854,838 deaths [1]. The report you linked claims 5,333 of those deaths were work-related. That means 0.18% of deaths in the US in 2019 were not work related.
Now I concede that the U.S. has much better workplace safety guidelines, with OSHA and the like, compared to less developed nations. So that percentage would surely be much higher in Qatar, but how much higher? If we assume that 5% of deaths were work related in Qatar, then that 0.72 overall mortality rate becomes 0.036 per 1000 people, same as the US, with its much better workplace safety guidelines, while assuming a 29x greater percent of deaths being workplace related.
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf
Now I concede that the U.S. has much better workplace safety guidelines, with OSHA and the like, compared to less developed nations. So that percentage would surely be much higher in Qatar, but how much higher? If we assume that 5% of deaths were work related in Qatar, then that 0.72 overall mortality rate becomes 0.036 per 1000 people, same as the US, with its much better workplace safety guidelines, while assuming a 29x greater percent of deaths being workplace related.
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf
You're forgetting that those non-Qataris are almost all migrant workers, so the population is extremely skewed towards relatively healthy 20-50 year old men. Also, people aren't just worried about directly work related deaths, but about bad living conditions in general.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Qatar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Qatar
Yes, there’s no way to know if those deaths are work related because Qatar’s government, despite its modern health care cannot figure out a cause of death for all their migrants. It’s even harder to know if these deaths are work related because Qatar has a verified history of arresting journalists and deleting the interviews where they try to find out the truth.
Does any of that strike you as a problem?
Or heck, do you ever think that Amnesty International is better equipped to make statements than you are?
Does any of that strike you as a problem?
Or heck, do you ever think that Amnesty International is better equipped to make statements than you are?
It's not reasonable to compare the mortality rate of working people to the global average across ages, disabilities, etc.
Probably makes more sense to compare it to Qataris with the same ages, if those figures are available.
And yet another human rights expert who is defending slavery. Good thinking.
I'm no human rights expert and nor am I trying to defend slavery. I'm just combatting the insane about of FUD that exists around basically any country in the middle east, specially on forums that are comprised of mostly western people.
I was one of those slurping down the KoolAid and believing all the FUD about the Middle-East. Then I started dating a Qatari woman and that helped to balance me out. She says the public health system is pretty poor, and it seems the migrants do not qualify for it anyway. That's a bad start.
People on here are totally misreading the Amnesty report though. The report does not say 15,000 immigrants died from World Cup construction. It says 15,000 migrants died over the period specified (which is a nominal figure), but it says that they do not understand what the cause of death was because Qatar is either purposefully or incompetently diagnosing this. That needs to be fixed.
I don't think Qatar is unique in mistreating its immigrant labor. Everywhere I've lived in the West does this to some degree, though not as seriously as Qatar was doing in the past.
People on here are totally misreading the Amnesty report though. The report does not say 15,000 immigrants died from World Cup construction. It says 15,000 migrants died over the period specified (which is a nominal figure), but it says that they do not understand what the cause of death was because Qatar is either purposefully or incompetently diagnosing this. That needs to be fixed.
I don't think Qatar is unique in mistreating its immigrant labor. Everywhere I've lived in the West does this to some degree, though not as seriously as Qatar was doing in the past.
It’s obvious you’re not a human rights expert. The thing is, the people at Amnesty International are human rights experts. They see an obvious problem and you’re doing gymnastics to convince everyone the problem doesn’t exist.
That’s a problem. You’re ignoring actual experts and spreading misinformation and now lies.
That’s a problem. You’re ignoring actual experts and spreading misinformation and now lies.
If you're going to effectively combat human rights violations and modern slavery, it's better to do it with facts and accurate statistics, rather than easily refuted figures. The Qatari government can make exactly the same (reasonable) points that commenters here are—a weak case makes it easy for guilty parties to evade responsibility.
Pointing out flaws in critical reports is not "defending human rights violations," it's highlighting weaknesses in the case, which helps people to make a stronger case.
(Plus, something isn't right and true just because Amnesty says it.)
Pointing out flaws in critical reports is not "defending human rights violations," it's highlighting weaknesses in the case, which helps people to make a stronger case.
(Plus, something isn't right and true just because Amnesty says it.)
> You’re ignoring actual experts and spreading misinformation and now lies.
Your responses to the commenter above (across a few threads) are sounding hysterical. I'm not sure why. :(
At least they seem to be trying to work out the numbers and thing for themselves, and are looking for external sources for information to work with.
Your responses to the commenter above (across a few threads) are sounding hysterical. I'm not sure why. :(
At least they seem to be trying to work out the numbers and thing for themselves, and are looking for external sources for information to work with.
Sound statistics = defending slavery?
It does not really matter: people will watch and go anyway. A few people get upset, a few people might be fined or even imprisoned, but that's just the price of 'doing business'. Scapegoats are built in and often well compensated. Nothing will be tainted.
Amnesty isn't a good source for anything. I've been on the other side of an "amnesty digital protest" and boy, they aren't very good with facts.
I'd encourage everyone to speak up to the sponsors of FIFA that seemingly condone the spurious arrest of these Norwegian journalists. Same with the former football athletes that promote these games
The Chinese government is able to change the behavior of multinational companies, so why can't we ;)
List of sponsors: Adidas, Coca-Cola, Wanda Group, Hyundai, Qatar Airways, Visa, Budweiser, Hisense, McDonalds, Vivo
The Chinese government is able to change the behavior of multinational companies, so why can't we ;)
List of sponsors: Adidas, Coca-Cola, Wanda Group, Hyundai, Qatar Airways, Visa, Budweiser, Hisense, McDonalds, Vivo
I still can't fathom how Qatar 22 is actually going ahead. The worst part is legends such as Beckham and co who are willingly endorsing it for $150m+.
I'm sure we'd all endorse anything if someone gave us a multi-million-dollar cheque for posting a few tweets and making a few media appearances - and you can do it _guilt-free_ because you know that wherever or not you accept the bloodstained money, the event is still going to go ahead, so you might as well make-bank.
Naively perhaps, I'd like to believe that someone like Beckham who has historically always been the face of great causes and events (UNICEF, London 2012, etc) would show some balls and actively campaign AGAINST this shit show. But instead he has taken the "if you can't beat them without trying, get paid obscene amounts of money" route.
I fear that this will become his legacy and right now, I think he's ok with that.
I fear that this will become his legacy and right now, I think he's ok with that.
> I think he's ok with that.
.. he and his new yacht are likely okay with that.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/entertainment-celebr...
.. he and his new yacht are likely okay with that.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/entertainment-celebr...
I don’t recall David Beckham ever making any particularly principled sacrifices though.
> show some balls
I see what you did there
I see what you did there
Except that all this embassadors were already rich before Qatar, so yeah, I can judge them for selling out while showing up in an ad telling me how beautiful the game is.
I would if I wasn’t extremely rich. So it’s interesting to see how rich people agree to it.
Let’s hope that COVID causes this WC to be an attendance disaster for FIFA with empty stadiums the norm. Qatar getting the WC is bribery taken to the extreme. Let the lessons of this stop the tournament being manipulated for political and financial gains. And keep it in June when it’s meant to be.
Does anyone know how many players have actually declined to play in Qatar because of this modern day slavery?
Can't be that many because I haven't seen any news about it.
Can't be that many because I haven't seen any news about it.
I haven't heard anything like that. Seems like the world cup is just going to continue like it always does.
That 400 million dollars of potential prize money, excluding all the extra ad revenue players might receive for wearing a particular brand of shoe or drinking a particular beverage, is enough to evaporate any morals. There's also the prestige factor, the dream of being crowned the best of the best.
I've heard some stories of teams considering a boycot, but very few of those teams had any chance in getting through the qualification round. It's very easy to boycot an event you don't take part in.
For the sake of sports, soccer teams have ignored the horrid treatment of the locals many times over. FIFA is corrupt beyond saving and the Olympic Committee isn't much different. The real game being played is that of the corrupt, taking money to ensure coca cola and friends can sell ads to enough people.
We've seen massive changes in platform culture online when advertisers got scared of being associated with bad stuff, like with Elsagate on YouTube, so I think the only way to get anyone to care is to threaten the income of the parties involved. Treat any advertisement on Qatar 2022 as an endorsement of modern day slavery and be sure to let the web know how you feel. Maybe, just maybe, when the big companies start to pull out, the teams and players will suddenly find their morals again.
That 400 million dollars of potential prize money, excluding all the extra ad revenue players might receive for wearing a particular brand of shoe or drinking a particular beverage, is enough to evaporate any morals. There's also the prestige factor, the dream of being crowned the best of the best.
I've heard some stories of teams considering a boycot, but very few of those teams had any chance in getting through the qualification round. It's very easy to boycot an event you don't take part in.
For the sake of sports, soccer teams have ignored the horrid treatment of the locals many times over. FIFA is corrupt beyond saving and the Olympic Committee isn't much different. The real game being played is that of the corrupt, taking money to ensure coca cola and friends can sell ads to enough people.
We've seen massive changes in platform culture online when advertisers got scared of being associated with bad stuff, like with Elsagate on YouTube, so I think the only way to get anyone to care is to threaten the income of the parties involved. Treat any advertisement on Qatar 2022 as an endorsement of modern day slavery and be sure to let the web know how you feel. Maybe, just maybe, when the big companies start to pull out, the teams and players will suddenly find their morals again.
To be cynical about it, principles don't buy you Bentleys nor does it attract trophy wives. Not that I'm saying I'm superior, I also like money and the comfort it brings me, in the current system that rules the world.
Sibling comment has been modded to death by talking about players coming from countries with slavery, that seems over the top, but another online comment I've read is that in the Middle East, slavery is right there, meanwhile in the West there is a bit of distance. Who makes your clothes (probably underpaid Bangladeshi, or nowadays, Ughyurs), who makes your electronics (probably Chinese factory workers in not-so-great conditions), or who mined the minerals needed for them?
Sibling comment has been modded to death by talking about players coming from countries with slavery, that seems over the top, but another online comment I've read is that in the Middle East, slavery is right there, meanwhile in the West there is a bit of distance. Who makes your clothes (probably underpaid Bangladeshi, or nowadays, Ughyurs), who makes your electronics (probably Chinese factory workers in not-so-great conditions), or who mined the minerals needed for them?
On the other hand, the players whose decision to boycott the games would have the intended effect of bringing some of the corruption to light and putting pressure on FIFA to not do something similar again almost certainly already have enough money to buy Bentleys and attract trophy wives.
So, if a star player really feels a certain way about this, I'm not sure the money has as much sway over them as it would over someone else, like you or me, or some lesser known player (whose boycott would have much less effect).
So, if a star player really feels a certain way about this, I'm not sure the money has as much sway over them as it would over someone else, like you or me, or some lesser known player (whose boycott would have much less effect).
A lot of these players are young, almost children, that have dreamed of playing in the world cup their entire life. If they're lucky and incredibly talented they can expect to get another opportunity, but I don't think it's fair to put the onus on them to boycott.
I don't see why working hard and having dreams exempt people from making moral choices. Aside from the fact they have already earned millions. So I don't think it's quite that dramatic.
National teams should just boycott this World Cup. I am certainly not watching it, although I love football.
Teams pulling out would most definitely make a difference. It does make you wonder why the players/managers do not get together and... strike.
Few national teams and players would dare to boycott it. National careers are short with few possibilities for success ( one of the advantages of a World Cup every two years would be that more teams and players could have success), and just playing for the national team, let alone at the biggest competition in sport there is, is a source of pride.
Exactly. Not only that but the chance of an entire team agreeing this is the best idea would split the team between the yays and nays.
The only thing that would work would be for people not to buy tickets and not to watch the matches but sadly that is unlikely to happen.
The idea that asking a government or FIFA to do anything is laughable, the world cup is far too political for most organisations to risk being blacklisted/cancelled/lose contracts/lose face whatever
The only thing that would work would be for people not to buy tickets and not to watch the matches but sadly that is unlikely to happen.
The idea that asking a government or FIFA to do anything is laughable, the world cup is far too political for most organisations to risk being blacklisted/cancelled/lose contracts/lose face whatever
The popular YouTube football channel Fifo Football made a video on whether national teams might boycott the World Cup 2022:
Will Countries Boycott The Qatar World Cup? https://youtube.com/watch?v=7KL9LExsPLI
(TL;DR: No)
Will Countries Boycott The Qatar World Cup? https://youtube.com/watch?v=7KL9LExsPLI
(TL;DR: No)
My girlfriend is native Qatari. I can tell you that most young native Qataris are as saddened by their government's behaviour as those outside the country are. Until recently there was nothing to be done about it.
What she is telling me, though, is that there are high hopes the World Cup will bring about changes to society, especially regarding gay rights, to accomodate the visitors, which will then stick after the end of the event.
Qatar was finally forced to implement some beginnings of democracy this year, ahead of the WC, after having managed to successfully put them off for a decade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Qatari_general_election
What she is telling me, though, is that there are high hopes the World Cup will bring about changes to society, especially regarding gay rights, to accomodate the visitors, which will then stick after the end of the event.
Qatar was finally forced to implement some beginnings of democracy this year, ahead of the WC, after having managed to successfully put them off for a decade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Qatari_general_election
The outrage is hypocrisy. Oh, it's fine for all of our consumer goods to be built by de facto slaves, toiling under much worse conditions than these construction workers, because to protest that we would actually have to change our lifestyle, lest we look like abject hypocrites. Just install some more suicide nets at the Apple plant and don't worry about it.
People are trying to change both... often the same people.
You're arguing at a strawman with a flavor of whataboutism - many people don't think that's OK, and different problems don't invalidate this one.
Other than that: individual boycott doesn't work. For example, I don't buy Apple products but the company is doing more than fine.
Other than that: individual boycott doesn't work. For example, I don't buy Apple products but the company is doing more than fine.
For some background on Qatar see the Amnesty International report 2020/2021 on Qatar:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-af...
Am I wrong?! 15,000 workers have died?
How is a number like that acceptable?
What if the event was Roman and I replaced workers with gladiators? Would the entertainment be more obviously a weight of blood?
This type of wealth is a form of modern war. Albeit, the other side which follows successful, or non successful war. This is mostly paid for with oil profits.
How is a number like that acceptable?
What if the event was Roman and I replaced workers with gladiators? Would the entertainment be more obviously a weight of blood?
This type of wealth is a form of modern war. Albeit, the other side which follows successful, or non successful war. This is mostly paid for with oil profits.
15,000 construction workers working on the World Cup have not died.
15,021 non-Qataris have died. The number includes any expatriate in Qatar - teachers, managers, fast food servers, VPs - everyone. Even among construction workers, the vast majority are working on projects that have nothing to do with the World Cup. For context, something like 80% of the 2.6m people in Qatar are expatriates, and these deaths occurred over a 9 year period. You can do the math.
15,021 non-Qataris have died. The number includes any expatriate in Qatar - teachers, managers, fast food servers, VPs - everyone. Even among construction workers, the vast majority are working on projects that have nothing to do with the World Cup. For context, something like 80% of the 2.6m people in Qatar are expatriates, and these deaths occurred over a 9 year period. You can do the math.
Thank you for clarifying.
Please read the Amnesty International report. This subject is way too big and too complex to trust anyone but actual experts.
hluska(2)
It still seems wild to me that, after discovering most of the judges who voted for Qatar to host the World Cup were bribed, everything proceeded as planned. Sepp Blatter was objectively corrupt, and Infantino is no better.
I dont know what to think about migrant death rates. The rublings seem to be worrisome, but proof seems to be elusive.
Then one is forced to objectively look at the facts, and things get murkier:
- Migrants are willing to co tinue yo travel despite the negative press - Migrant home countries are never in the news lodging official protests or expressing serious concern. - In fact, home countries seem to do absolutely nothing to curb whatever alleged excesses could be happening.
Maybe people are focused on the wrong problem. If death rates are not scandalous or even serious (outside of higher death rates consistent with industrial occupations deemed as hazardous) what seems to be unquestioned is Qatar's abuses in imprisonment of any person, migrant or not.
I'd like to hear more about cases like this article.
I've been to the last 5 world cups. I am seriously considering boycotting visiting because of articles like this one. Good journalistic work.
Closing: Regarding someone's awful experience in school with Association Football abuse. Im sorry this happened to you. As a parent of several kids that constantly play "soccer" in every room of our house, i can tell you the sport brings immense joy to many, including little ones.
As a parent, thank you for reminding me to stay alert about abuses at school masquerading as PE.
Then one is forced to objectively look at the facts, and things get murkier:
- Migrants are willing to co tinue yo travel despite the negative press - Migrant home countries are never in the news lodging official protests or expressing serious concern. - In fact, home countries seem to do absolutely nothing to curb whatever alleged excesses could be happening.
Maybe people are focused on the wrong problem. If death rates are not scandalous or even serious (outside of higher death rates consistent with industrial occupations deemed as hazardous) what seems to be unquestioned is Qatar's abuses in imprisonment of any person, migrant or not.
I'd like to hear more about cases like this article.
I've been to the last 5 world cups. I am seriously considering boycotting visiting because of articles like this one. Good journalistic work.
Closing: Regarding someone's awful experience in school with Association Football abuse. Im sorry this happened to you. As a parent of several kids that constantly play "soccer" in every room of our house, i can tell you the sport brings immense joy to many, including little ones.
As a parent, thank you for reminding me to stay alert about abuses at school masquerading as PE.
Migrants continue travelling because they have no other choice. Am from Latam and these stories can be heard everywhere, from people that keep moving between countries, looking for an opportunity
> but proof seems to be elusive.
Why is that? Is there no transparency and free press reporting on it? Then the numbers should be assumed to be much worse.
Why is that? Is there no transparency and free press reporting on it? Then the numbers should be assumed to be much worse.
I don't care about football. But what can I suggest to friends who really want to see their team playing? What sort of protest is possible? Is there anything that hurts FIFA? What about the sponsors?
Most of that money comes from TV fees and sponsorships. In all honesty, whether your friends watch or not, at this point, it's probably not going to affect anything for 2022. FIFA has already secured the TV fees and they already got their sponsorship money. I mean, maybe you can suggest they not buy the official Adidas world cup ball, if they were even planning on buying it...
You can suggest that they write a stern tweet or reddit comment, like everyone else who likes to pretend they're protesting so they can pat themselves on the back and then continue watching the sport.
Could someone here do the math: how much CO2 is emitted by air travel to Qatar for football teams + entourage + fans vs. European countries hosting the world cup games (e.g. Italy, Benelux, Spain)?
How is that any relevant? Any international competition will have a significant aviation footprint - especially something like the Olympics which involves far more countries than the World cup. In fact, I'd reckon the aviation footprint will be lower because of Qatar's relatively central position in the old world, from where fans are more likely to travel to watch a live football game.
What's more relevant here from an environmental standpoint is the cost of adding lifestyle amenities (water, energy, landscaping, construction, etc) on the ground for the million or so football fans who will descend upon a country not especially designed to handle such a high volume of traffic without committing some serious ecological cost.
What's more relevant here from an environmental standpoint is the cost of adding lifestyle amenities (water, energy, landscaping, construction, etc) on the ground for the million or so football fans who will descend upon a country not especially designed to handle such a high volume of traffic without committing some serious ecological cost.
2022 - Winter Olympics in China and Soccer World Cup in Qatar.
They will be a huge successes like the Winter Olympics in Sotschi, Russia 2014.
They will be a huge successes like the Winter Olympics in Sotschi, Russia 2014.
Why would anyone still watch a sport that supports evil like this?
Football or any sport up and beyond a certain level is more about entertainment than about the actual sport.
Nah moral outrage is on the Winter Olympics 2022 right now. Hard to maintain concurrent moral outrages at the same time.
Ain't that the truth. The World Cup is a bigger deal than the Winter Olympics, so we can't really do the right thing.
More than 6.000 dead workers due to the World Cup, the event should be stopped to avoid more deaths in future events.
But nothing will happen, it's the sad truth of it all.
More than 6.000 dead workers due to the World Cup, the event should be stopped to avoid more deaths in future events.
But nothing will happen, it's the sad truth of it all.
Nah I grew disillusioned with atrocity propaganda, consequently I'm glad that its potency starts diminishing.
I was wondering what kind of person who would dismiss large scale human rights abuses as "atrocity propaganda", and holy shit I was not disappointed. You've got to have one of the edgiest profiles on this site!
Yeah too many slave labour-fueled projects going on to be upset with all of them
There's also a heck of a lot of stories about how Qatar was able to get the world cup in the first place. It seems that FIFA isn't exactly free of corruption, which is a shame because they're supposed to be in charge of the world's favourite sport. Of course there's no accountability in any way, who even knows who their national FA rep is? I guess that's one of the perks of running a sport with that much history, people will still feel compelled to watch.
One thing that's positive is that ordinary people are not ignorant about this situation. You'll find in every FB post about this there's a load of voices expressing what I've just expressed. So whatever the Qataris think they're buying with this massive outlay, they're not getting it.
On the sporting side it appears they're making a decent effort of building a home grown team that isn't going to totally embarrass them, which is quite the challenge.