Overview of Early Electric Cars(lowtechmagazine.com)
lowtechmagazine.com
Overview of Early Electric Cars
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/overview-of-early-electric-cars.html
6 comments
Perfect EV (for me) was already made. Citroen Ami. $6000, 75km range.
You tried it yourself ? (just curious)
They don't sell it in my country :(
Traditional car manufacturers simply don't want our money. It needs new companies like Tesla to actually make and sell the damn product.
Traditional car manufacturers simply don't want our money. It needs new companies like Tesla to actually make and sell the damn product.
Where I live I'm pretty sure all the electrical power comes from natural gas turbines. So EVs pollute just like regular cars.
There's actual transit and the local government has their act together though so I don't drive at all.
There's actual transit and the local government has their act together though so I don't drive at all.
Do they indeed? The turbines usually have much better exhaust filtration and have higher efficiency than oil refinery+ICE.
But all of those are still true. I would argue that public transport should replace cars for commute which is most of the "non-niche" usage.
Public transport can't get you anywhere, on your own terms? Sounds familiar.
Public transport can't get you anywhere, on your own terms? Sounds familiar.
They are not simultaneously true. The new Model S Long Range has 412 mi range. All of them can tow, but they are all fairly expensive.
The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.
The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.
It's better but not great. Not everyone can afford tesla. Western goverments and big companies are to blame for lack of incentives and infrastructure. People buy what makes the most sense, and petrol is better for many people. This can be changed.
I think that everyone would instantly switch to EV if it had the same properties but had a battery instead of a tank. They are faster, silent, cleaner, but it's up to leaders to bridge the gap making them economically viable.
I think that everyone would instantly switch to EV if it had the same properties but had a battery instead of a tank. They are faster, silent, cleaner, but it's up to leaders to bridge the gap making them economically viable.
I've assumed its just a problem of demand for batteries exceeding supply. If a manufacturer can only make a small number of cars because they are restricted by battery supply then they are going to mark up the price to maximise their profit. As more battery supply becomes available the prices should fall.
> The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting there.
Prices are heading in the wrong direction at the moment:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-model-3-mod...
Prices are heading in the wrong direction at the moment:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-model-3-mod...
Consider living in the early 2000s and replace
'digital camera' vs 'analog camera' with
'dinosaur burning vehicles' vs 'electric vehicles'.
Same discussion, different technology. We all know how it ended ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Same discussion, different technology. We all know how it ended ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Exhaust pipe should end in the cabin. Then people will stop their excuses.
Well I drive a 250 mile round trip every week or every other. Range does matter.
250 miles is within range of a bunch of different cars - and not just Tesla or luxury brands but also Fords, Skodas, Nissan, and Volkswagens too. At UK speed limits that is like 3.5 continuous hours driven at 70mph (in reality you'd not be doing 70 all the time either)... Most people would take a bio break and maybe a coffee in there somewhere and fast charging for 15 mins at 100+kw can give some decent top-up (e.g. ID.3 does over 500miles per hour charging, so just 5mins while you go take a piss is another 40 miles range added)
https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~a...
https://ev-database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~a...
The catch is when it's cold out. I'm in a similar situation. ~120 miles one way. My Nissan Leaf gets ~140 miles per charge, and it works fine in the spring/summer/fall.
In the winter I get about 90 miles on full charge, so not only am I stopping to charge, but I have to be at full charge when I leave. Also consider that the only fast charging station on my route is right around 30 miles in, and I'm running "on fumes" every trip.
I know there are cars with bigger batteries that will make it. But I also know they are another ~$10k, which is a significant upcharge.
In the winter I get about 90 miles on full charge, so not only am I stopping to charge, but I have to be at full charge when I leave. Also consider that the only fast charging station on my route is right around 30 miles in, and I'm running "on fumes" every trip.
I know there are cars with bigger batteries that will make it. But I also know they are another ~$10k, which is a significant upcharge.
Yes for me the weather requires AC for most of the year in addition to significant periods of cold weather. There's also the significant lack of charging infrastructure.
Those aren't excuses, those are legitimate gripes/complaints. If EVs were that great, they would've beat ICE, especially since they're available at artificially lower prices (subsidies). EV sales are microscopic vs. ICE because EV offerings are inferior.
Both electric and ICE cars are being subsidised:
- direct car purchase subsidies (almost exclusively electric)
- oil production subsidies. You might want to have a look at [0].
- wind and solar electricity production subsidies.
- road infrastructure building and maintenance.
One could also argue that the following heavyweights should be included:
- oil wars.
- untaxed negative environmental externalities:
- direct car purchase subsidies (almost exclusively electric)
- oil production subsidies. You might want to have a look at [0].
- wind and solar electricity production subsidies.
- road infrastructure building and maintenance.
- Road and fuel taxes do not cover this.
- Usually higher for the same size electric car because heavier. That could change with battery and charging tech improvements though...
One could also argue that the following heavyweights should be included:
- oil wars.
- untaxed negative environmental externalities:
- oil spills
- CO2 and other harmful gas emissions
- car tire particles from both ICE and electric cars ...
They are still to expensive for me. Also, I get all my cars used.
Outside of that I'm still concerned about the carge time. If I drive out of town to visit my folks and I'm low on gas I can just fill up mid trip no problem. How does that work if it takes an hour (a generous guess based on my phone) to charge?
That said I think the tech is cool and am looking forward to the price coming down.
Outside of that I'm still concerned about the carge time. If I drive out of town to visit my folks and I'm low on gas I can just fill up mid trip no problem. How does that work if it takes an hour (a generous guess based on my phone) to charge?
That said I think the tech is cool and am looking forward to the price coming down.
for an 8 hour trip you might budget an hour lunchbreak anyways. so an hour full recharge time is manageable. if you are almost there already, you won't need a full charge to make it.
The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel cell cars come around. Nearly all of the criticism of this argument are just a mirror of the arguments against EVs (often made by pro-EV people no less).
So the real misunderstanding isn't with anti-EV people, but with pro-EV denying that there's a future beyond EVs.
So the real misunderstanding isn't with anti-EV people, but with pro-EV denying that there's a future beyond EVs.
Fuel-cell proponents keep claiming they're just around the corner but the issues with them are fundamental. ~3x the total energy use because of all the inefficiencies, and needing an all new infrastructure compared to BEVs where the grid is already everywhere. If FCEVs show up and are actually usable that would be fine but I wouldn't bet on it. They're mostly brought out as an argument for staying on ICEs until, real soon now, we'll finally have them. Maybe for long sea shipping hydrogen will work, but even for trucking the 3x energy input needed is hard to justify.
There's nothing stopping FCEVs from being as efficient as BEVs. Even now, huge improvements are being found like 90% efficient electrolysis[1]. Future improvements in hydrogen and fuel cell technology could close the gap entirely.
Like I said, you're repeating many arguments that are a mirror of the arguments made against BEVs. It's pretty ridiculous to just repeat anti-EVs for something else while being pro-EVs.
The other thing is that this viewpoint is increasingly outdated. A lot of these "facts" date to the 2010s or earlier. These are more inline with a person being out of touch than someone that is informed.
[1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/03/20210307-topsoe.htm...
Like I said, you're repeating many arguments that are a mirror of the arguments made against BEVs. It's pretty ridiculous to just repeat anti-EVs for something else while being pro-EVs.
The other thing is that this viewpoint is increasingly outdated. A lot of these "facts" date to the 2010s or earlier. These are more inline with a person being out of touch than someone that is informed.
[1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/03/20210307-topsoe.htm...
90% efficient electrolysis doesn't matter when "getting hydrogen from the pump to your car's fuel tank" has 20+ percent energy losses. And from the tanker trailer to the pump. And...
This comes from the inherent thermodynamic inefficiencies of compressing something, letting it expand, and then compressing it again.
This comes from the inherent thermodynamic inefficiencies of compressing something, letting it expand, and then compressing it again.
Those losses can be made much less than that. Theoretical minimal losses are on the order of 1-2kWh per kg, and in practice not much more than that[1]. Further efficiency improvements can get reality even closer to theoretical.
Most of these arguments are increasingly outdated, as I mentioned before. We're at the point where hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent on hydrogen right now[2]. So naysayers are more accurately described as being out of touch with latest events and not people with any special knowledge.
[1] https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/9013_energy_requirement...
[2] https://www.jwnenergy.com/article/2020/7/8/europe-unveils-pl...
Most of these arguments are increasingly outdated, as I mentioned before. We're at the point where hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent on hydrogen right now[2]. So naysayers are more accurately described as being out of touch with latest events and not people with any special knowledge.
[1] https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/9013_energy_requirement...
[2] https://www.jwnenergy.com/article/2020/7/8/europe-unveils-pl...
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I think fuel cells window of opportunity is closing fast and they have no traction despite a lot of investment.
EV's weight penalty is going away as battery energy density relentlessly increases. EV's capital expense penalty is also going away due to mass manufacturing improvements.
Charging infrastructure for EV's is basically a last 50 foot problem. Running 30 amp 240 circuit from a breaker box to an external outlet. Compare with the infrastructure needed for the 'hydrogen economy'. Every bit of it needs to be designed and built from scratch. Countries have built stuff like that but it takes decades. We don't have decades.
EV's weight penalty is going away as battery energy density relentlessly increases. EV's capital expense penalty is also going away due to mass manufacturing improvements.
Charging infrastructure for EV's is basically a last 50 foot problem. Running 30 amp 240 circuit from a breaker box to an external outlet. Compare with the infrastructure needed for the 'hydrogen economy'. Every bit of it needs to be designed and built from scratch. Countries have built stuff like that but it takes decades. We don't have decades.
You can't build a "lead" as if this was a race. For one thing, there's no finish line. There's nothing stopping fuel cell cars from having their own technology revolution and a S-curve like adoption curve that displaces everything else. This could happen ever after EVs "win" over internal combustion so to speak. It's fully possible that EVs are still on-track to being replaced no matter what happens next.
The other thing is that we still have to pay attention to fundamental limitations. There are hard limits to battery energy density that likely to never be crossed. Extremely fast-charging will probably always be limited by its high power power draw. Meanwhile, fuel cell technology is advancing extremely quickly in its own right. We could be seeing fuel cell cars that cost as much as a Corolla[1], and cost only $1.5/kg[2] to refuel (or about 2-3¢ per mile). In a world were fuel cell cars cost <$20k and are cheaper to run than EVs, while also delivering 400 miles of range and 5-minute refueling times, EVs quickly lose much of their luster.
[1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydroge...
[2] https://renewablesnow.com/news/nel-aiming-at-green-hydrogen-...
The other thing is that we still have to pay attention to fundamental limitations. There are hard limits to battery energy density that likely to never be crossed. Extremely fast-charging will probably always be limited by its high power power draw. Meanwhile, fuel cell technology is advancing extremely quickly in its own right. We could be seeing fuel cell cars that cost as much as a Corolla[1], and cost only $1.5/kg[2] to refuel (or about 2-3¢ per mile). In a world were fuel cell cars cost <$20k and are cheaper to run than EVs, while also delivering 400 miles of range and 5-minute refueling times, EVs quickly lose much of their luster.
[1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-hydroge...
[2] https://renewablesnow.com/news/nel-aiming-at-green-hydrogen-...
There is still a hard limit to hydrogen energy density that is likely to never be crossed. And safe consumer-friendly handling of pure hydrogen is much more expensive than electricity, that also stems from physical limitations. These limitations are being hit now. On the other side, batteries and chargers did not hit their hard physical limitations yet. Supercapacitors exchanging many megawatts of energy over superconductive wires are feasible.
Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg. That's rarely going to the limiting factor. The physical limitations are nearly the same as natural gas, which is to say they are easily solvable. Superconducting wires will have their own major issues that are a long ways away from being solved.
In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from being a car for everyone. In particular, you've ignored the limits on battery energy density which will likely limit battery powered cars to either expensive luxury cars or short-ranged urban cars.
In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from being a car for everyone. In particular, you've ignored the limits on battery energy density which will likely limit battery powered cars to either expensive luxury cars or short-ranged urban cars.
You conveniently omitted the storage vessel factor from the energy density. And it's definitely not comparable to natural gas in other respects too, such as hydrogen is corrosive and needs special alloys or nonmetal materials.
Superconducing wires are already and increasingly used in practice. Even without superconductors we can just keep raising the voltage and use copper, there are new silicon carbide power transistors that make it possible. We aren't near physical limit yet.
Other assertions of yours are likewise unfounded, too.
I can totally see hydrogen airplanes but for cars it's too little too late.
Superconducing wires are already and increasingly used in practice. Even without superconductors we can just keep raising the voltage and use copper, there are new silicon carbide power transistors that make it possible. We aren't near physical limit yet.
Other assertions of yours are likewise unfounded, too.
I can totally see hydrogen airplanes but for cars it's too little too late.
From a theoretical standpoint, you don't need to worry about that. You can conceive of metal hydrides or other forms of dense hydrogen storage. Even as LH₂, you're still looking at around 2700 Wh/L of energy. That's well beyond any known rechargeable battery.
And the "special alloys" really just mean certain types of steel alloy, and "nonmetal materials" really mean certain types of plastics. This is not a big challenge.
You still need very low temperatures and exotic materials for superconducting cables. Not to mention the power generation needed to sustain that level of power draw. This is a long-term problem that we're nowhere near solving.
As I said before, this is not a race and there is no finish line. There's nothing stopping fuel cell cars from displacing EVs at an arbitrary point in the future.
And the "special alloys" really just mean certain types of steel alloy, and "nonmetal materials" really mean certain types of plastics. This is not a big challenge.
You still need very low temperatures and exotic materials for superconducting cables. Not to mention the power generation needed to sustain that level of power draw. This is a long-term problem that we're nowhere near solving.
As I said before, this is not a race and there is no finish line. There's nothing stopping fuel cell cars from displacing EVs at an arbitrary point in the future.
From theoretical standpoint why not jump ahead to antimatter? :)
Electricity is a solved problem, most obstacles to additional power generation and transport are bureaucratic in nature.
Electricity is a solved problem, most obstacles to additional power generation and transport are bureaucratic in nature.
As soon as everyone agrees to build more nuclear power... We're not anywhere near ready to use anti-matter, but the next best thing faces extreme opposition for some reason.
Hydrogen is pretty much a solved problem too. Most of the critics are just stuck in 2010 or earlier.
Hydrogen is pretty much a solved problem too. Most of the critics are just stuck in 2010 or earlier.
I did not have primarily nuclear in mind, but obstacles to extending long-distance electric grid to support renewables. But hydrogen pipelines are going to have even worse problem with this. And you did not really debunk any of my "stuck in 2010" criticism.
Hydrogen pipelines are a solved problem. We have been doing it for decades[1]. I could have said "stuck in 1930" but that might be overdoing it.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_pipeline_transport
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_pipeline_transport
> Hydrogen energy density is around 39,000 Wh/kg
Lithium's energy density is 11,600 Wh/kg.
> In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from being a car for everyone
I can buy a battery powered vehicle today. Seriously it's 5pm on a Sunday. However the dealer is open till 7pm and they have a couple of dozen Chevy Bolts on the lot.
Lithium's energy density is 11,600 Wh/kg.
> In reality, we're nearly at the point where hydrogen is a solved problem, but batteries will be a very long ways away from being a car for everyone
I can buy a battery powered vehicle today. Seriously it's 5pm on a Sunday. However the dealer is open till 7pm and they have a couple of dozen Chevy Bolts on the lot.
That's much lower than hydrogen. So what was the argument here?
You can buy a fuel cell car today too. I've notice that many of you guys are stuck in 2010 or so. Fuel cells cars are far beyond your outdated viewpoints.
You can buy a fuel cell car today too. I've notice that many of you guys are stuck in 2010 or so. Fuel cells cars are far beyond your outdated viewpoints.
> The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel cell cars come around.
Fuel cell cars are EVs.
Fuel cell cars are EVs.
Yes, but people get confused. Hence why EVs should be referred to as BEVs, and fuel cell cars as FCEVs.
Ironic that they were "refueling" electric trucks 100 years ago in 5 minutes. They just drove into a service bay and replaced the battery.
We could make new gas stations rent batteries. Pay a subscription fee and you can drive around with a BP battery and exchange it at any BP. 5 minutes work and a tidy sum to avoid long charging times.
We could make new gas stations rent batteries. Pay a subscription fee and you can drive around with a BP battery and exchange it at any BP. 5 minutes work and a tidy sum to avoid long charging times.
Does anyone have any reading material on the history of control systems of electric vehicles? Today most EVs use AC motors with a inverter - a bunch of power transistors - that convert DC to AC, adjusting the frequency as required by the motor (that's what the hum you hear is). However obviously that wasn't the case 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago when electric (trolley) buses were still used in many parts of the world.
Electric trams of the era used essentially large resistors banks and series parallel switching to control power. I expect it was much the same for electric cars, perhaps tapping off or rewiring part of the battery bank. The total amount of power probably made simple on-off control almost practical anyway.
You use a brushed DC motor where the field coil is in series with multi tap resistor bank controlled by the throttle. That's how it was done with electric golf carts before 1990.
Article on 'speed switches' for old golf carts.
http://www.golfcarcatalog.com/golf-cart-blog/golf-cart-speed...
Wiring diagram.
https://wiringall.com/1984-ezgo-marathon-resistor-wiring-dia...
Basically you use resistors to control the current in the motors field coil. Because the field windings have a lot of turns the current is much lower than in the armature. The armature is connected directly to the battery via a forward reverse switch.
Article on 'speed switches' for old golf carts.
http://www.golfcarcatalog.com/golf-cart-blog/golf-cart-speed...
Wiring diagram.
https://wiringall.com/1984-ezgo-marathon-resistor-wiring-dia...
Basically you use resistors to control the current in the motors field coil. Because the field windings have a lot of turns the current is much lower than in the armature. The armature is connected directly to the battery via a forward reverse switch.
DC motors driven directly from the battery, probably with a large wire-wound rheostat to control the power. Many cars had voltmeters and ammeters for the driver.
The visuals in this are great. Its interesting to see how the materials and manufacturing complexity of what they could produce aren't far off what wealthy-hobbyest/niche-youtubers can do at home now. It'd be interesting to re-create one of these with modern parts.
[deleted]
The problem is the same as its always been: the batteries still aren't quite good enough. Batteries still need to become cheaper, safer, more energy dense, more durable, and faster charging.
But the good news is that batteries are improving year by year. Probably by 2025 there will be large scale production of EVs with solid-state batteries with better energy density, safety, and charging speeds.
It'll also be good to see cars start to make use of ultra-capacitor buffers to more efficiently recuperate braking energy. The more you can protect the main battery with a capacitor buffer, the longer it'll last.
But the good news is that batteries are improving year by year. Probably by 2025 there will be large scale production of EVs with solid-state batteries with better energy density, safety, and charging speeds.
It'll also be good to see cars start to make use of ultra-capacitor buffers to more efficiently recuperate braking energy. The more you can protect the main battery with a capacitor buffer, the longer it'll last.
I think they are. Most new electric cars are like at least 250 mile range, and Tesla's flagship Model S starts out at over 400 mile range (and their 520 mile range version will be available in about 12 months... that's more than most conventionally fueled cars). Charge speed is fine (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations) and safety is overall superior. Battery life is also not a concern as the battery in these vehicles will outlast the car.
I just don't think people realize that batteries actually are plenty good enough now. No breakthrough is needed. It's about driving down the cost to as low as possible and scaling out charging standards and networks. And ultimately, just banning new conventional cars outright (starting out by requiring all new vehicles to have a plug in a few years).
I just don't think people realize that batteries actually are plenty good enough now. No breakthrough is needed. It's about driving down the cost to as low as possible and scaling out charging standards and networks. And ultimately, just banning new conventional cars outright (starting out by requiring all new vehicles to have a plug in a few years).
> (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas stations)
Curious how you are calculating this. I usually spend about 60-120 seconds refilling my tank once every 300 miles. (15 gallon tank, about 30 mpg).
Because gas stations are everywhere, I never have to plan a specific route based on availability of gas stations, or use an app to find where the stations are, or even think about how much gas I have, as I know there is a station on the way to wherever I am going, and all I need to do is pull over. I even have the luxury of refusing to stop at gas stations on the left side of the road because there will be another station a block down on the right side.
But with electric you have to go out of your way to find a charging station and it takes longer than 100 seconds to fully charge your car. So how can it be less time overall?
Curious how you are calculating this. I usually spend about 60-120 seconds refilling my tank once every 300 miles. (15 gallon tank, about 30 mpg).
Because gas stations are everywhere, I never have to plan a specific route based on availability of gas stations, or use an app to find where the stations are, or even think about how much gas I have, as I know there is a station on the way to wherever I am going, and all I need to do is pull over. I even have the luxury of refusing to stop at gas stations on the left side of the road because there will be another station a block down on the right side.
But with electric you have to go out of your way to find a charging station and it takes longer than 100 seconds to fully charge your car. So how can it be less time overall?
I’d time your next fuel stop. Start a phone video recording and measure the time from making the right turn into the station and stop it once you’re back on the road. It’s never going to be 2 minutes and will often be more like 10 minutes.
In contrast, if you have a plug at your house, you spend well under a minute to plug and unplug.
In contrast, if you have a plug at your house, you spend well under a minute to plug and unplug.
> So how can it be less time overall?
If you can charge at home overnight (or at work during the day) then you won't need to go anywhere else.
If you can charge at home overnight (or at work during the day) then you won't need to go anywhere else.
If a car never breaks down, then you don't need to waste time at a mechanic, either.
This metaphor doesn’t make sense to me. As a matter of course, a gasoline car needs gasoline; unless you live on a farm with delivered fuel, that means going to the gas station for it.
An electric car needs only electricity to operate, which is already distributed via wires to everyone’s home.
Both cars need tires; electric cars also need significantly less scheduled maintenance. No oil changes, no timing belt, etc.
An electric car needs only electricity to operate, which is already distributed via wires to everyone’s home.
Both cars need tires; electric cars also need significantly less scheduled maintenance. No oil changes, no timing belt, etc.
The point being that estimating the expectation of something by excluding an important part of the event space yields a false estimate. No one believes that everyone always charges their cars at home and that charging stations are not needed, otherwise there would be no demand to build them. But when called out on the inconvenience of these stations there is a retreat to "oh, I only charge at home" and so that is the only case in which to take charge convenience into account.
It’s not a retreat. I drive a plug-in electric hybrid car, and I almost never visit a gas or charging station. Maybe every 6 months (I only use a little gas if I exceed the 35 mile electric range... I never drive 400 miles a day except on long road trips). I just charge at home. It’s way more convenient than gas stations.
People who have never owned electric cars just don’t grok this. Yes, some people live in apartments which often have no outlets for charging your car (altho they definitely do some places), but this is a minority of people in the US and so it’s fair to say that overall you likely will spend a lot less time charging than a typical gas car owner spends at gas stations. It’s a perfectly defensible statement.
People who have never owned electric cars just don’t grok this. Yes, some people live in apartments which often have no outlets for charging your car (altho they definitely do some places), but this is a minority of people in the US and so it’s fair to say that overall you likely will spend a lot less time charging than a typical gas car owner spends at gas stations. It’s a perfectly defensible statement.
I've had my model y for six months now, and I have not needed to charge it away from home once yet. Yes, it's the pandemic so I'm not making long trips, but it's met my regular trip needs without compromise.
With electric you plug the car in overnight while it is parked. It is full every morning, and you never need to go out of your way to charge it unless you are on an intercity trip.
It really is more convenient than gasoline!
It really is more convenient than gasoline!
I don't think most people would consider only charging at home an advantage or "convenience". If you even need to go to a charging station once and spend a half hour to an hour there, that becomes very inconvenient, even if you only need to do that once a month.
Most people would like to have a charging station always nearby so that it becomes stateless for them, so that they don't need to think about how much they drove that day, and they want the charging to happen within a minute or so to view it as equally convenient as gas.
PEV have many advantages, but let's be realistic -- the convenience of charging is a disadvantage.
Most people would like to have a charging station always nearby so that it becomes stateless for them, so that they don't need to think about how much they drove that day, and they want the charging to happen within a minute or so to view it as equally convenient as gas.
PEV have many advantages, but let's be realistic -- the convenience of charging is a disadvantage.
Also this assumes you have a driveway that has a charge point hooked up.
This does nothing for, say, most apartment buildings which don’t have charge points, or people who park on the street.
This does nothing for, say, most apartment buildings which don’t have charge points, or people who park on the street.
That’s true; we’re going to want a substantial improvement in charging infrastructure over the next decade.
We need outlets in apartment parking lots (they already have light poles, and block heater outlets are common in northern areas) and off-street parking. It’s pretty cheap to just add outlets.
Assuming that the existing wiring can support the increased demand.
It used to be pretty common for electricity demand to double every decade. Residential electricity usage more than doubled from 1950 to 1960, and then again more than doubled from 1960 to 1970 (and then about doubling again by 1990). A lot of that was air conditioning becoming common and then ubiquitous. Electric cars will be able to be more responsive to grid constraints than air conditioners ever were.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38572
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38572
EVs are very energy intensive, and in a location of the building that never had such high energy requirements; parking garages are one of the pieces of the building that is extremely optimized and so may be complicated or expensive to retrofit.
Building codes have had to be adjusted to accommodate, but new housing is a fraction of the total building supply in any given area, and retrofitting can be nearly four times the cost of a new installation. And these building codes usually target a <10% amount of EV spaces. Anecdotally, I work in an office building that meets these codes and is all LEED-compliant and stuff, yet demand for the limited EV spaces outstrips supply and you basically get rationed access to it on a first-come first-serve basis.
Building codes have had to be adjusted to accommodate, but new housing is a fraction of the total building supply in any given area, and retrofitting can be nearly four times the cost of a new installation. And these building codes usually target a <10% amount of EV spaces. Anecdotally, I work in an office building that meets these codes and is all LEED-compliant and stuff, yet demand for the limited EV spaces outstrips supply and you basically get rationed access to it on a first-come first-serve basis.
[deleted]
If you have a garage and a power point at home, you just leave it plugged in while you're not using it. You don't really even have to think about it - definitely more convenient than having to find a gas station once a week
It's a huge convenience! I love not having to get to the gas station (it always at the least convenient time).
[deleted]
No, you need to think about what it means when all cars are electric. Current charging speeds lead to long queues at chargers like this:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-...
No car on the road at the moment is capable of making full use of 350 kW CCS chargers (the Porsche Taycan comes closest at 270 kW). Ideally you'd want a flat charging curve at 350 kW to allow for more cars to be served by each charger.
If you had a flat charging curve at 350 kW it would take about 13 minutes to go from 0 to 80% state of charge on a 100 kWh battery. Still slower than fueling an ICE car and still not full battery capacity, but you should be able handle 4 cars per hour per charger.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-road-...
No car on the road at the moment is capable of making full use of 350 kW CCS chargers (the Porsche Taycan comes closest at 270 kW). Ideally you'd want a flat charging curve at 350 kW to allow for more cars to be served by each charger.
If you had a flat charging curve at 350 kW it would take about 13 minutes to go from 0 to 80% state of charge on a 100 kWh battery. Still slower than fueling an ICE car and still not full battery capacity, but you should be able handle 4 cars per hour per charger.
This is just the wrong way to think about scaling electric cars.
Current electric cars do about 90% of their charging at home. As the battery size increases, this number would (for the same people) actually INCREASE. I do DC fast charging for my 80 mile range Leaf, but for well over a year I haven’t gone more than 100 miles from home with it. If I had a 250 mile Bolt or whatever, I would’ve had no reason for any away from home charging. 300, 400, and 500 mile electric cars (like Tesla offers) have even less reason to charge not-at-home.
And Level 1 and 2 charging at home or work or other destinations is WAY cheaper per watt of installed charging capacity than DC fast chargers. So if you want ubiquitous electric cars, the solution isn’t to just scale out DC fast charging, but instead make exterior outlets ubiquitous. Add a relay-controlled outlet to every light pole and parking meter. All apartment parking lots. Many business parking lots.
Cost per watt for DC fast chargers is around $1. For a home charger, it’s about $0.10 to $0.20, and often essentially “free” as you just use the included charger and plug into an external outlet or a drier outlet in a garage.
DC fast charging stations should be reduced in cost, but you don’t need to increase the speed that much as there are diminishing returns to doing so. Just add more slots.
It is on long trips where DC fast charging is largely unavoidable, but even still, 500 mile range covers quite a lot of area and all but likely-multi-day trips. If I can charge at my destination, I don’t necessarily need a fast charger.
The solution is to make sure there’s enough L1 (external outlets, which are only like $100 apiece) and L2 chargers (can be bought for as low as $200 now... with installation cost no more than, say, an RV or drier outlet) so that you DON’T need such massive DC fast charging infrastructure.
This is hard when few people have electric cars but becomes much easier when most people do as apartment complexes will install outlets on parking spaces as a matter of course. Same for workplaces, metered parking spots, etc.
A cheap IOT-controlled-relay external outlet is something that would really help make this more practical. Hard to get traction when electric cars are a small portion of overall cars.
Current electric cars do about 90% of their charging at home. As the battery size increases, this number would (for the same people) actually INCREASE. I do DC fast charging for my 80 mile range Leaf, but for well over a year I haven’t gone more than 100 miles from home with it. If I had a 250 mile Bolt or whatever, I would’ve had no reason for any away from home charging. 300, 400, and 500 mile electric cars (like Tesla offers) have even less reason to charge not-at-home.
And Level 1 and 2 charging at home or work or other destinations is WAY cheaper per watt of installed charging capacity than DC fast chargers. So if you want ubiquitous electric cars, the solution isn’t to just scale out DC fast charging, but instead make exterior outlets ubiquitous. Add a relay-controlled outlet to every light pole and parking meter. All apartment parking lots. Many business parking lots.
Cost per watt for DC fast chargers is around $1. For a home charger, it’s about $0.10 to $0.20, and often essentially “free” as you just use the included charger and plug into an external outlet or a drier outlet in a garage.
DC fast charging stations should be reduced in cost, but you don’t need to increase the speed that much as there are diminishing returns to doing so. Just add more slots.
It is on long trips where DC fast charging is largely unavoidable, but even still, 500 mile range covers quite a lot of area and all but likely-multi-day trips. If I can charge at my destination, I don’t necessarily need a fast charger.
The solution is to make sure there’s enough L1 (external outlets, which are only like $100 apiece) and L2 chargers (can be bought for as low as $200 now... with installation cost no more than, say, an RV or drier outlet) so that you DON’T need such massive DC fast charging infrastructure.
This is hard when few people have electric cars but becomes much easier when most people do as apartment complexes will install outlets on parking spaces as a matter of course. Same for workplaces, metered parking spots, etc.
A cheap IOT-controlled-relay external outlet is something that would really help make this more practical. Hard to get traction when electric cars are a small portion of overall cars.
> This is just the wrong way to think about scaling electric cars.
Nope. It's the practical reality of what needs to happen when there are ever more electric cars on the road.
Nope. It's the practical reality of what needs to happen when there are ever more electric cars on the road.
They really need to make swappable batteries which are pre-charged and ready to 'fit in'. This current charging network simply does not scale IMHO.
They don’t. Tesla tried and stopped after a short time. It’s just not worth it as charging has got much better.
Charging scales better than any other new load we’ve added to the grid (such as air conditioning) as the vast majority of charging will be flexible within roughly 24 hours. After doubling like once a decade or so for a century, electricity demand has been constant or even falling for the last 5-10 years, which has been a major strain on utility finances. The extra flexible demand from electric cars is going to be hugely important for funding the maintenance and upgrading of our electric grid.
Charging scales better than any other new load we’ve added to the grid (such as air conditioning) as the vast majority of charging will be flexible within roughly 24 hours. After doubling like once a decade or so for a century, electricity demand has been constant or even falling for the last 5-10 years, which has been a major strain on utility finances. The extra flexible demand from electric cars is going to be hugely important for funding the maintenance and upgrading of our electric grid.
> Tesla tried and stopped after a short time. It’s just not worth it as charging has got much better.
Nio has succeeded where Tesla failed. Nio does swapping and charging:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-ba...
https://insideevs.com/news/448165/nio-completed-1-millionth-...
Nio has succeeded where Tesla failed. Nio does swapping and charging:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-ba...
https://insideevs.com/news/448165/nio-completed-1-millionth-...
Tesla succeeded. It just wasn't worth it. Not in the States, at least. It's quite possible it makes more sense elsewhere.
> you should be able handle 4 cars per hour per charger.
It's still abysmally slow.
It's still abysmally slow.
Yes, there will still need to be more charge points than there are fuel pumps but your charging won't necessarily be exclusively at DC fast chargers. It will be a mix of DC and AC charging.
For example, if you're on a road trip you might DC fast charge during the day and then slow charge overnight at a hotel so you start the day with a full battery.
For example, if you're on a road trip you might DC fast charge during the day and then slow charge overnight at a hotel so you start the day with a full battery.
I guess it's feasible, but as of last year I've never seen a charger at a hotel.
My office had maybe a dozen, which is already not enough—EV drivers were required to go outside and move their cars after a few hours. I don't know how often someone who needs one is screwed.
My office had maybe a dozen, which is already not enough—EV drivers were required to go outside and move their cars after a few hours. I don't know how often someone who needs one is screwed.
I always charge at my AirBNB. Just need an external 120V outlet. An RV-style outlet would work for L2 power levels. That’s not that uncommon.
Is it hard to find one with a garage rather than street parking? They don’t seem to offer a search filter for that.
Each time I've just parked in a driveway and ran a cord to an external outlet.
BTW, 63% of US housing units have a garage or a carport. That doesn't even count those that have just a driveway. I have a garage, but I solely park and charge outside (my garage is my COVID work-from-home office space away from the kids...). In a place that experiences 4 seasons.
BTW, 63% of US housing units have a garage or a carport. That doesn't even count those that have just a driveway. I have a garage, but I solely park and charge outside (my garage is my COVID work-from-home office space away from the kids...). In a place that experiences 4 seasons.
I’m a little dubious about that stat. I’ve had a carport space, but it had no power and was hundreds of yards away from my (upstairs) apartment. It’s not an impossible problem but it’ll take a ton of installations approved by property managers and that work has barely started.
It is less about charging speed but rather charger availability vs. demand. Of course, it is easer to provide high availability if the charging/refueling ist relatively fast, but at any given speed you can compute the number of charge/refueling points needed to prevent waiting times beyond a given limit. There can be hour-long queues at fuel stations too, just there are enough fuel stations that this is a very rare thing, but just look at the people queuing up at fuel stations when a hurricane approaches.
Let's see. A 2011 diesel sedan can go about 900km before refueling. There's maybe 2 charging stations within 50 km of my central European location. So, the best experience I can have with an electric car right now is to spend a 100k on a car that doesn't work unless I live next to the charging station, or takes a day to charge. Oh and the car that I already have is not designed by Californians, so there's no stupid shit like a trunk full of snow every time you open it.
I think I'll still go with the autism causing, dinosaur burning dumpster fire on wheels for now.
I think I'll still go with the autism causing, dinosaur burning dumpster fire on wheels for now.
That would explain why Electric cars aren’t popular in Norway... oh wait: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/02/norway-at-79-1-plugin-e...
Norway just taxes fossil fuel cars so much that it's cheaper to buy a Tesla. They are like a Gulf state. Low population and a lot of oil. Plus the abundant hydro. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from that.
Silly question: to what extent can you extend the range of a car by adding solar panels on the roof in cloudy conditions? If that adds range of 10% extra, then why not do it?
I figured they thought about this a long time ago, so I'm just wondering.
I figured they thought about this a long time ago, so I'm just wondering.
Not nearly enough. Solar panels, under absolutely perfect conditions (perfect angling, no clouds, etc) produce about 15w per square foot. Even if you covered every bit of the upward facing surfaces, including the hood, with panels, that's going to peak at about 1kw of input - and since you'll be off axis all the time it'll be less than that.
A Tesla battery pack is 100kw/h. So under perfect conditions you'd need 100 hours of charging to get one charge.
A Tesla battery pack is 100kw/h. So under perfect conditions you'd need 100 hours of charging to get one charge.
The Prius Gen 3 had an option for a 'solar roof', but it's pretty much just a gimmick. The whole roof is 40W. All the panels do is power a fan to bring exterior air into the cabin, to keep it cooler during hot weather.
It depends how efficient the car is and how efficient the solar panels are.
Here are some examples of solar cars and their solar range estimates:
- Aptera: https://www.aptera.us/never-charge
- Lightyear One: https://lightyear.one/technology
- Sono Motors Sion: https://sonomotors.com/en/solar-integration/
- Toyota Prius experimental prototype: https://newatlas.com/toyota-prius-solar-roof/60461/
- The Hyundai Ioniq 5 has a small panel as an option, but you won't get much range out of it: https://pvbuzz.com/hyundai-ioniq-5-solar-panels/
Here are some examples of solar cars and their solar range estimates:
- Aptera: https://www.aptera.us/never-charge
- Lightyear One: https://lightyear.one/technology
- Sono Motors Sion: https://sonomotors.com/en/solar-integration/
- Toyota Prius experimental prototype: https://newatlas.com/toyota-prius-solar-roof/60461/
- The Hyundai Ioniq 5 has a small panel as an option, but you won't get much range out of it: https://pvbuzz.com/hyundai-ioniq-5-solar-panels/
Honestly I think the issue isn't with batteries or current technology. My lay view is that the technology to make PEVs attractive is already here. What is not here is the eco-system.
* Can you get the car serviced at an independent mechanic or do you have to go to the dealer and pay whatever they decide to charge you? No amount of battery innovation will overcome $1000 bills to replace a door handle. Check out Rich Rebuild's youtube channel for a description of the service costs of keeping a Tesla running out of warranty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM&t=302s
* Is there a large eco-system of after-market parts and third party warranty issuers? This is required to drive repair costs down.
* Do we have good data on the lifetime of critical parts under actual use? This is required for consumers to estimate the operating costs over the life of the vehicle (whether or not they plan on selling it doesn't matter, as they will pay for those operating costs either in depreciation or in paying for repairs themselves)
* Is there a robust country-wide charge network that compete with gas stations?
* Is there a system to quickly get energy when you need it -- e.g. either very fast (10 min) charging or a swap-in battery system to give you a quick 100 miles of range.
These are not issues that require breakthroughs in solid state science. If the batteries don't last long, make it easier to service them or swap them out. If the range isn't so great, create a wider network of chargers. If the parts don't last as long, make them cheaper and easier to service by independent mechanics. Force a right to repair and diagnose for PEVs as we have for gas powered cars.
IOW, rather than waiting on breakthroughs in materials science, infrastructure upgrades can solve these issues, but lack of infrastructure can't be solved by breakthroughs in battery life. As long as Tesla is a monopoly provider of parts and service, and as long as the infrastructure isn't there, upping the power to weight ratio of batteries by 30% isn't going to do much to reduce ownership risk to consumers, and PEVs will remain a niche market dominated by wealthy consumers who can bear ownership cost risk better than middle class people.
* And of course, the electric grid needs a massive upgrade.
All of the above is well within the reach of existing tech. Whether it's financially feasible is another question.
* Can you get the car serviced at an independent mechanic or do you have to go to the dealer and pay whatever they decide to charge you? No amount of battery innovation will overcome $1000 bills to replace a door handle. Check out Rich Rebuild's youtube channel for a description of the service costs of keeping a Tesla running out of warranty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM&t=302s
* Is there a large eco-system of after-market parts and third party warranty issuers? This is required to drive repair costs down.
* Do we have good data on the lifetime of critical parts under actual use? This is required for consumers to estimate the operating costs over the life of the vehicle (whether or not they plan on selling it doesn't matter, as they will pay for those operating costs either in depreciation or in paying for repairs themselves)
* Is there a robust country-wide charge network that compete with gas stations?
* Is there a system to quickly get energy when you need it -- e.g. either very fast (10 min) charging or a swap-in battery system to give you a quick 100 miles of range.
These are not issues that require breakthroughs in solid state science. If the batteries don't last long, make it easier to service them or swap them out. If the range isn't so great, create a wider network of chargers. If the parts don't last as long, make them cheaper and easier to service by independent mechanics. Force a right to repair and diagnose for PEVs as we have for gas powered cars.
IOW, rather than waiting on breakthroughs in materials science, infrastructure upgrades can solve these issues, but lack of infrastructure can't be solved by breakthroughs in battery life. As long as Tesla is a monopoly provider of parts and service, and as long as the infrastructure isn't there, upping the power to weight ratio of batteries by 30% isn't going to do much to reduce ownership risk to consumers, and PEVs will remain a niche market dominated by wealthy consumers who can bear ownership cost risk better than middle class people.
* And of course, the electric grid needs a massive upgrade.
All of the above is well within the reach of existing tech. Whether it's financially feasible is another question.
In my opinion, we are trying to solve the "EV range issue" all wrong. We are looking at gas cars, and asking "how can we do the same thing, but with electricity" - and we get a substandard result.
What we SHOULD do is: take a step back and ask "what do we REALLY want to achieve".
We don't really want long range and fast charge. We DO want worry-free power wherever we choose to go. It isn't a novel concept to suggest: inductive charging from the road into the car (as you drive). There are probably other more practical ideas, too, but - and this is critical- you have to start asking the right questions.
What we SHOULD do is: take a step back and ask "what do we REALLY want to achieve".
We don't really want long range and fast charge. We DO want worry-free power wherever we choose to go. It isn't a novel concept to suggest: inductive charging from the road into the car (as you drive). There are probably other more practical ideas, too, but - and this is critical- you have to start asking the right questions.
That's insane. Inductive charging is wildly inefficient.
On typical phone chargers efficiency is about 60-70% max..and it goes down with distance.
On typical phone chargers efficiency is about 60-70% max..and it goes down with distance.
So what we really need is a big network of overhead wires, trolleybus style.
Trolleybuses are very niche. The networks at least in North America have not expanded much, and many have shrunk since their heyday, because people find the wires a visual nuisance.
I wasn't really serious. Although I do quite like trolleybuses. Even if the infrastructure existed I'm sure you could never trust the average driver to keep their car attached to the rails; even the buses come off sometimes.
> We don't really want long range and fast charge
Yes we do. As the article demonstrates, they were making the same arguments 100 years ago.
Lack of range and charging speed is why electric cars lost out to ICE cars 100 years ago. ICE cars simply took you further, faster (and still do).
Yes we do. As the article demonstrates, they were making the same arguments 100 years ago.
Lack of range and charging speed is why electric cars lost out to ICE cars 100 years ago. ICE cars simply took you further, faster (and still do).
more than 412 mi, faster than a Model S? This argument is completely ridiculous.
Electric is already far superior for every day driving and close to parity for long distance (super charger is fast, but not yet quiet as fast as pumping gas - but if you have kids you'll welcome the break)
Electric is already far superior for every day driving and close to parity for long distance (super charger is fast, but not yet quiet as fast as pumping gas - but if you have kids you'll welcome the break)
> more than 412 mi
No, 400 miles is about right as an average range as long as your charging is fast. ICE cars achieve that easily. The Toyota Prius has 640 miles of range.
> faster than a Model S
Yes.
> close to parity for long distance
It isn't. There's no point pretending the situation is other than it is. You can do long distance driving in an EV but you are going to spend more time charging than you would spend fueling. That's just a practical reality.
The Porsche Taycan is the fastest road tripping EV at the moment. It's helped by its fast charging capability:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFsjMvCFlig
It's an expensive sports car and on price alone it will never be a mass market vehicle. EVs still need to charge faster than the Taycan.
> super charger is fast, but not yet quiet as fast as pumping gas
It's nowhere near as fast as pumping gas.
No, 400 miles is about right as an average range as long as your charging is fast. ICE cars achieve that easily. The Toyota Prius has 640 miles of range.
> faster than a Model S
Yes.
> close to parity for long distance
It isn't. There's no point pretending the situation is other than it is. You can do long distance driving in an EV but you are going to spend more time charging than you would spend fueling. That's just a practical reality.
The Porsche Taycan is the fastest road tripping EV at the moment. It's helped by its fast charging capability:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFsjMvCFlig
It's an expensive sports car and on price alone it will never be a mass market vehicle. EVs still need to charge faster than the Taycan.
> super charger is fast, but not yet quiet as fast as pumping gas
It's nowhere near as fast as pumping gas.
> inductive charging from the road into the car
Society can't (for $REASONS) even get potholes reliably fixed in roads. The probability of something like installing inductive charging on every mile of interstate is effectively zero.
Society can't (for $REASONS) even get potholes reliably fixed in roads. The probability of something like installing inductive charging on every mile of interstate is effectively zero.
First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't tow. Then the range was too small.
Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins.
I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs.
Sigh.