Follow up on the reverse job application.(reversejobapplication.com)
reversejobapplication.com
Follow up on the reverse job application.
http://www.reversejobapplication.com/followup/
39 comments
While that may be true, if I recall correctly he was unemployed for over 2 years. I have a feeling the reverse application didn't take up all of his time.
Look at the bottom of the article for an explanation of why he hasn't an impressive portfolio.
> "why didn't you spend your unemployment working on a project to flesh out your portfolio?"
Who cares? Generally the last thing I do is try to get practical with my portfolio just to impress some third party; depending on who you are, what field you're interested in, and everything else in your portfolio, the projects you produce will only vary as much as you originally imagined them.
If you're projects aren't interesting to you, are they really worth doing? All this aside, if I were OP I wouldn't be shy about chalking-up this experiment as a "project" since most ad agencies and creative types eat this stuff up.
Who cares? Generally the last thing I do is try to get practical with my portfolio just to impress some third party; depending on who you are, what field you're interested in, and everything else in your portfolio, the projects you produce will only vary as much as you originally imagined them.
If you're projects aren't interesting to you, are they really worth doing? All this aside, if I were OP I wouldn't be shy about chalking-up this experiment as a "project" since most ad agencies and creative types eat this stuff up.
Such an interesting reaction. I'm at the company that hired Andrew. Since he didn't post our name on his blog, I won't reveal his secret destination here. But we are both awesome and a start-up.
That said, we obviously saw Andrew the way that cosgroveb and mcknz. He seemed opinionated, smart, and very creative. We were pretty sure he'd fit culturally and be interested in learning the type of development we do.
Is he a master of OO design patterns? Probably not. Were you when you just graduated college? Once again, probably not.
Should he have developed more of a portfolio and completed a few personal projects? It might have shortened his job search. Was putting together reversejobapplication.com a very creative and effective solution to the problem of getting hired without said portfolio or personal projects? Yes. Yes it was.
See you Monday, Andrew.
That said, we obviously saw Andrew the way that cosgroveb and mcknz. He seemed opinionated, smart, and very creative. We were pretty sure he'd fit culturally and be interested in learning the type of development we do.
Is he a master of OO design patterns? Probably not. Were you when you just graduated college? Once again, probably not.
Should he have developed more of a portfolio and completed a few personal projects? It might have shortened his job search. Was putting together reversejobapplication.com a very creative and effective solution to the problem of getting hired without said portfolio or personal projects? Yes. Yes it was.
See you Monday, Andrew.
Wow. The guy creates an entertaining, creative, and novel approach to finding a job, succeeds, shares his story for the benefit of others, and is apparently still getting beat up.
I'm just going to say thanks and congratulations.
I'm just going to say thanks and congratulations.
I think part of the problem was the use of "cover letter/resume" language in the context of a blog posting.
On a job application, it's ordinary to praise your own accomplishments and abilities. So you declare things like "excellent writing skills", and nobody really bats an eye [1]. However, if you were at a dinner party, and you praised your own "excellent cooking skills", it would probably rub people the wrong way. Blogs fall more into the second category, I think, which may account for some of the reaction.
All in all, this was a clever approach that worked out well, and maybe it should be more of a norm. Unlike Andrew, I've been in the workforce for well over a decade, but I think that I may have a skill set that doesn't match up neatly with a most job descriptions. As a result, want ads don't do much for me. I always figured that this is just because really good jobs are never listed on recruitment sites - they're the jobs you create and grow into. But who knows, a reverse job application might be a good way to see if there's one out there.
If I try it, I'll make sure to heed the lessons I learned from this first go-around, which is when many of the mistakes are first made.
[1] Watch out, though. In the tech world, describing yourself as an expert in a programming language may be a bit like waving a red flag in front of a bull.
On a job application, it's ordinary to praise your own accomplishments and abilities. So you declare things like "excellent writing skills", and nobody really bats an eye [1]. However, if you were at a dinner party, and you praised your own "excellent cooking skills", it would probably rub people the wrong way. Blogs fall more into the second category, I think, which may account for some of the reaction.
All in all, this was a clever approach that worked out well, and maybe it should be more of a norm. Unlike Andrew, I've been in the workforce for well over a decade, but I think that I may have a skill set that doesn't match up neatly with a most job descriptions. As a result, want ads don't do much for me. I always figured that this is just because really good jobs are never listed on recruitment sites - they're the jobs you create and grow into. But who knows, a reverse job application might be a good way to see if there's one out there.
If I try it, I'll make sure to heed the lessons I learned from this first go-around, which is when many of the mistakes are first made.
[1] Watch out, though. In the tech world, describing yourself as an expert in a programming language may be a bit like waving a red flag in front of a bull.
He's done well.
He hacked this terribly inefficient system we call the "jobs market." I think that's impressive.
To everyone who still thinks he's arrogant, or narcissistic, or whatever... Meh.
To everyone who still thinks he's arrogant, or narcissistic, or whatever... Meh.
That's the point... he didn't "hack" anything. He posted an ad, it got a desired result. Good for him, but nothing remotely special.
It may not be unique but it is at the very least a very unusual approach. So I respectfully disagree that it is nothing remotely special.
The world is pretty drab in hindsight! He used a checklist (saving millions in malpractice suits); he connected two computers together with a cable (internet); he asked the people their opinion (democracy); he specialized workers (assembly lines)...
Maybe this is better addressed to his site than this one, but I'm curious what type of job he netted with his reverse job application. Many people postulated it would be something in marketing, I wonder if that's true.
I don't think I'm entitled to share the company, but based on a certain comment in this thread, it looks like he's landed in real estate.
The positions currently listed on the Jobs page for that company are:
* RoR developers
* Customer Acquisition / Marketing
* Loan processing
I imagine that he'll be trained for the first category.
Hope this isn't too intrusive - kind of reminds me of that analysis of patio11 from a month or two ago. Willing to remove this post if requested.
The positions currently listed on the Jobs page for that company are:
* RoR developers
* Customer Acquisition / Marketing
* Loan processing
I imagine that he'll be trained for the first category.
Hope this isn't too intrusive - kind of reminds me of that analysis of patio11 from a month or two ago. Willing to remove this post if requested.
Removing the post doesn't hide it. Anyone with showdead turned on in their account will see it.
And as promised, i'm going to give you a follow up on the 'reversemarriageproposal'. The next lady that my mum found as a suitor (which was last week), i went in with a view that she had to impress me!
Lo and behold. She has said 'yes' to moving things forward. Its not an official engagement or anything like that, but suffice to say, i've gotten further than i have ever before.
So there you have it! :D
Lo and behold. She has said 'yes' to moving things forward. Its not an official engagement or anything like that, but suffice to say, i've gotten further than i have ever before.
So there you have it! :D
Is this a joke? I really need to try this.
No. I'm serious.
I come from a background of arranged marriages. (I'm ok with it). each time i went to see a suitor, i got rejected.
The thing which made this more appealing to me is the fact that (would-be) job seekers could learn a lot from how he approached the situation.
1. Use your creativity and imagination.
2. Make the people (and employers) get curious about you.
3. There are a lot of ways to achieve the goals you desired.
At the end of the day, we should simply be happy that he shared with us something we can learn a lot from and he was able to get a job with a company that realized his potentials.
1. Use your creativity and imagination.
2. Make the people (and employers) get curious about you.
3. There are a lot of ways to achieve the goals you desired.
At the end of the day, we should simply be happy that he shared with us something we can learn a lot from and he was able to get a job with a company that realized his potentials.
He still sounds self-centered, and I do have a psych degree. He took credit for everything that worked ("Look, I got a job!" "Look, my bold daring attempt at being clever worked!") , then dismissed any naysayers almost entirely out of hand (Paraphrased: "It's easy to be anonymous on the internet", "Oh, you thought I was being serious? I was just exaggerating for my silly website", "You think I'm "x"? LOL well, you're the expert")
I'm glad he got a job, and working at a start-up will definitely be a great learning experience. But I wish the followup focused on things he did both right and wrong, and how he or other people could improve the experience next time, instead of acting so defensive.
I'm glad he got a job, and working at a start-up will definitely be a great learning experience. But I wish the followup focused on things he did both right and wrong, and how he or other people could improve the experience next time, instead of acting so defensive.
With people like you who have never had a real conversation with him judging him based on a single action, how can he be expected not to act defensive? Was part of that psych degree learning how to form opinions of someone based on one piece of his writing, without even seeing him in person to see his body language?
And who cares if you're self-centered, anyways? The world you see is your world. You can take control of it and make your life what you want it to be, or you can float along on the tides of fate and call the ones who don't self-centered.
The funniest part, to me, is that you call him self-centered, but at the same time you expect him to write his article in a way that gives you value.
And who cares if you're self-centered, anyways? The world you see is your world. You can take control of it and make your life what you want it to be, or you can float along on the tides of fate and call the ones who don't self-centered.
The funniest part, to me, is that you call him self-centered, but at the same time you expect him to write his article in a way that gives you value.
One of the argument he makes is that everyone on the internet is an amateur psychologist, and that anonymity was the only prerequisite for a psych degree. He then used this to assume that people who called him self-centered had no basis for doing so. I was asserting the fact that he came across as self-centered, and I did, in fact, have a psych degree. His response wasn't a good argument, it was dismissing naysayers out of hand as not having expertise in the area. What will his response be to me? That I don't have a PHD? That I have never met him? If I met him, and still thought he was self-centered, would that change his mind? What about 50 people who meet him? Even if he knows he is not self-centered, if his perception is as such, wouldn't that warrant addressing outside of "no you guys don't understand me, you never met me, you guys are a bunch of amateur psychologists".
You do three things in your post: claim that I can't tell he's self centered, claim that self-centeredness isn't important, then call me self-centered. Which is it? Is it all three? If so, what does it matter that I think he's self centered, since it doesn't matter?
As for the final statement, I gave my opinion as to how I think his post could have helped more people, including me. Is it self-centered to lament that there could have possibly been a better way to go about the followup? Or should critique not be part of any article or post at all?
You do three things in your post: claim that I can't tell he's self centered, claim that self-centeredness isn't important, then call me self-centered. Which is it? Is it all three? If so, what does it matter that I think he's self centered, since it doesn't matter?
As for the final statement, I gave my opinion as to how I think his post could have helped more people, including me. Is it self-centered to lament that there could have possibly been a better way to go about the followup? Or should critique not be part of any article or post at all?
I wish your followup focused on things I did both right and wrong, and how I or other people could improve my comments next time, instead of acting so defensive.
This is a completely wrong analogy. In the original post, I said he should have used his followup to focus on what HE did right/wrong. Why in your comment has it suddenly changed to me improving what YOU did right/wrong? This seems like a straw man, that is also trying to be an Ad Hominem attack.
What you don't believe the defensiveness was merited?
The top comment on HN (with 136 karma) was run4yourlives decrying his generation's lack of humility and saying "You are not fucking special in any way shape or form." You mean to tell me you wouldn't be a little bit defensive? Don't kid yourself.
Also- just because you, psych degree and all, think he is self centered doesn't mean anything more than you, eggbrain, feel he is self centered. Give him some credit. He was in a rut, tried something new, and was successful. And now you want him to feel bad about it?
The top comment on HN (with 136 karma) was run4yourlives decrying his generation's lack of humility and saying "You are not fucking special in any way shape or form." You mean to tell me you wouldn't be a little bit defensive? Don't kid yourself.
Also- just because you, psych degree and all, think he is self centered doesn't mean anything more than you, eggbrain, feel he is self centered. Give him some credit. He was in a rut, tried something new, and was successful. And now you want him to feel bad about it?
I am not denying his success, in fact, I think it was an interesting spin mixed with some good timing that he made successful.
That being said, while some of the comments in the original thread were in poor taste, his defense came off sounding petty, rather than well thought out. Instead of addressing the concerns people had with him thoughtfully (maybe I worded my orginal post too strongly, I never meant to come off as being being arrogant, simply someone frustrated with the job search process. Next time I'll also add my qualifications as well, so that way I can get applicants for X, etc), he basically just retorted back with "everyone is wrong, they don't know me" kind of mentality. He basically does no self-critiquing, but rather puts it off on other factors (it was a joke/you are all wrong/you didn't understand) vs taking blame (or talking about improvements) that he could use for next time. So it came off as sounding like "Hey look, I got a job, I was right, the haters can hate" kind of thing, which didn't really improve his image from what some people thought was self-centered.
That being said, while some of the comments in the original thread were in poor taste, his defense came off sounding petty, rather than well thought out. Instead of addressing the concerns people had with him thoughtfully (maybe I worded my orginal post too strongly, I never meant to come off as being being arrogant, simply someone frustrated with the job search process. Next time I'll also add my qualifications as well, so that way I can get applicants for X, etc), he basically just retorted back with "everyone is wrong, they don't know me" kind of mentality. He basically does no self-critiquing, but rather puts it off on other factors (it was a joke/you are all wrong/you didn't understand) vs taking blame (or talking about improvements) that he could use for next time. So it came off as sounding like "Hey look, I got a job, I was right, the haters can hate" kind of thing, which didn't really improve his image from what some people thought was self-centered.
Glad that he bothered to follow up but disappointingly short on the details.
When I read the original I thought it was all good, apart from:
1. <<Possess strong written, verbal and interpersonal communication skills. If you can't tell the difference between "you're" and "your", your never going to be able to get you're points across to me.>> There are plenty of people out there who have correct grammar but terrible communication skills.
2. he seems to think that people are unable to type their e-mail address correctly and that they have not yet figured out how to copy and paste their e-mail address on web forms.
These seemed very arrogant to me and the anonymous psychologists comments in the follow-up re-inforce that.
When I read the original I thought it was all good, apart from:
1. <<Possess strong written, verbal and interpersonal communication skills. If you can't tell the difference between "you're" and "your", your never going to be able to get you're points across to me.>> There are plenty of people out there who have correct grammar but terrible communication skills.
2. he seems to think that people are unable to type their e-mail address correctly and that they have not yet figured out how to copy and paste their e-mail address on web forms.
These seemed very arrogant to me and the anonymous psychologists comments in the follow-up re-inforce that.
I thought it was supposed to be a parody of real job adverts / application forms, which are usually quite arrogant and ridiculous and almost never evidence of 'excellent interpersonal communication skills.'
I wonder how much of an impact HN had on the success of this. Did he get any job offers before it was submitted to places like this? In this case, the success is based more on the exposure provided via HN then on the actual idea. HN adds a level of credibility that simply putting up a website does not.
How do you separate the credibility of a website on its own from the credibility lent to it by exposure on websites like HN? Ideally you'd hope that the reason something gets exposure on HN is because it meets a minimum level of inherent credibility on its own, wouldn't you?
> Ideally you'd hope that the reason something gets exposure on HN is because it meets a minimum level of inherent credibility on its own, wouldn't you?
Ideally. In practice, I think HN lends more credibility to some things that don't deserve that extra credibility.
I'm not trying to suggest that the original article was wrong or not credible. Rather, would it be successful without the HN influence? While I don't think the original idea is bad, I think the success was due to HN.
Ideally. In practice, I think HN lends more credibility to some things that don't deserve that extra credibility.
I'm not trying to suggest that the original article was wrong or not credible. Rather, would it be successful without the HN influence? While I don't think the original idea is bad, I think the success was due to HN.
No. This is a misconception. Think of the content on Hacker News much as you would the performers of the old-style circus freakshows. They're something to gawk at or to entertain you, nothing more.
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I'm glad this guy took a chance and that it worked out for him. I can't speak for all members of Generation X, but this member is a little tired of how much GenY is being picked on. Lazy, selfish, slovenly, worthless -- everything that we were called, and that the baby boomers were called, too. It's called youth, people. And you were young once, even though you may pretend you don't remember it.
With respect to this, I think that people are jealous of youth, which is why the generation that has it catches all the flak. Youth and Freedom travel together. Looking at youth from the other side of marriage, job, mortgage, kids only amplifies the jealousy for that freedom we've long given up (and in my case, I would give up again, but still the calling of freedom is there).
Could the real answer be that you are just the kind of person who considers spending time on a reverse job application and then advertising it to be time better and more efficiently spent than working on a portfolio? And that is at least one of the reasons that you were probably hired by hopefully one of the better employers that were able to recognize that.