Ask HN: Where would you invest 30K EUR?
31 comments
Probably a no-load index fund if you're risk-averse. These things tend to grow a few percent a year.
More risky, higher-payoff, would be a peer-to-peer lending platform.
Best off, use that 30k EUR to support yourself while you build the next billion-dollar unicorn startup. Or you could always invest in mine.
More risky, higher-payoff, would be a peer-to-peer lending platform.
Best off, use that 30k EUR to support yourself while you build the next billion-dollar unicorn startup. Or you could always invest in mine.
I would advice to avoid any Buy and Hold strategies for any assets including the the stock market...
You already lost money in crypto, because you don't know what you are doing, so do not listen to people that advice to by index funds, it might have the exact same result....
Just check how long it took NASDAQ to go back to new highs after the dot com bubble or check Japan - Nikkei stock index from the 1989 and how far off it is today almost 30 years later...
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EN225?ltr=1
As with everything, you'll need to educate yourself and spend the time doing it so... unfortunately, there are no shortcuts...
Think about it, if you want to fly a plane, would you ask here for advice how to do it?
You already lost money in crypto, because you don't know what you are doing, so do not listen to people that advice to by index funds, it might have the exact same result....
Just check how long it took NASDAQ to go back to new highs after the dot com bubble or check Japan - Nikkei stock index from the 1989 and how far off it is today almost 30 years later...
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EN225?ltr=1
As with everything, you'll need to educate yourself and spend the time doing it so... unfortunately, there are no shortcuts...
Think about it, if you want to fly a plane, would you ask here for advice how to do it?
Buy a website that makes 1K EUR a month. Before, do some thinking and reading about a niche that you might know something about or care about. Use a serious broker to minimize the chances of getting scammed. Try to grow the website by using some your time and skills or use the money left to hire people that cost less per hour than what you make.
If things go well, you can keep the website or sell it for more than you bought it. If the revenue doesn't improve or becomes smaller you can sell the website and get some of the money back. Either way, you'll learn some new things.
If things go well, you can keep the website or sell it for more than you bought it. If the revenue doesn't improve or becomes smaller you can sell the website and get some of the money back. Either way, you'll learn some new things.
> Buy a website that makes 1K EUR a month.
That's a 40% yearly ROI. Do people really sell at such valuation?
That's a 40% yearly ROI. Do people really sell at such valuation?
Yes because if risk. Who says it'll still be making anything next year.
Sounds like a market for lemons (perhaps that explains the very low valuations). For an owner, barring some personal circumstances, it makes little sense to sell unless he forsees problems in the near-ish future. Otherwise, as holding the company for just 2.5 more years doubles his profits, it sounds smart to hold on to it for as long as possible and only sell when he feels that a decline is coming.
Sometimes people needs money asap, or gets tired of the same suff...
... life happens ;-)
... life happens ;-)
>What would you do with this money if your intention would be to make it grow?
What is the timescale?
1-7 days: go to the casino, bet it on red
1 year: just keep it
5 years: low-risk investments
>10 years: high-risk investments (more volatile, but larger expected payout)
What is the timescale?
1-7 days: go to the casino, bet it on red
1 year: just keep it
5 years: low-risk investments
>10 years: high-risk investments (more volatile, but larger expected payout)
Man, you are never supposed to bet against black :)
Why not just leave it at the bank?
It's always nice to have a bit of money on the side for unexpected expenses (eg. car breaks down) or if you should find yourself without a job for a few months, or if you need a down payment to buy an appartement.
If your money is tied up in investements, it's just going to be a hassle to get to your money, and it's going to cost a lot in fees if you need it sooner than later.
It's always nice to have a bit of money on the side for unexpected expenses (eg. car breaks down) or if you should find yourself without a job for a few months, or if you need a down payment to buy an appartement.
If your money is tied up in investements, it's just going to be a hassle to get to your money, and it's going to cost a lot in fees if you need it sooner than later.
I will try to make it short. I have been successful investing for a long time(10+ years), long-term and having no background in finance or whatsoever. Read it only if you want to invest it in the long term, possibly forever, so you acummulate assets over time.
My tips/rules:
- buy some books about value investing and read them(don't only buy)
- NEVER buy stock from recommendations
- avoid mainstream media about finance if you can't take it 100% as entertainment. I currently only laugh at analysts when I see it, for instance
- if you mess up, sell it and accept that you lost money
- don't invest in risky stuff a huge percentage, you first need to understand your emotions and how good/bad you react when it falls. this is something you can develop in many years of investing
- as a beginner, have at least 3 types of assets(government bonds, REITs, stocks etc)
- of those at least 3 types of assets, never have 10% of more than any
- feel free to buy crypto, but don't put over 10% in an asset class(crypto)
- don't buy things which you would want to check prices regularly, humans can't handle it
- would you lose your sleep if you lose 3k out of 30k? if so, diversify more
- prefer stocks over indexes, but in the beginning, considering buying a lot of indexes and some stocks you like for you to get the feeling, also other assets types as I've mentioned above
- have at least 80% invested in simple and boring stuff(and change that when you are more experienced, but now, you are a terrible investor, I still consider myself a terrible one).
- create a google spreadsheet and keep track of everything you do. have one sheet that has all the transactions you made, reasoning(why?), prices, mood etc. you don't need to make it fancy, if you have it all listed, as I've told you do to do, you can always create other sheets based on this info, such as tracking your performance etc - avoid tracking your performance, warren buffet got like 17% yearly over a few decades and he's the outlier, don't expect to make more than this and also don't go for opportunities that are too good
- learn how to read a balance sheet of a company it will be good also for your working life
- try to invest every month a value, rather than in big amounts, like in fitness, if you want to get fit, going to the gym everyday is better than going once and working out for 12 hours(good luck with that)
- don't do trading, it is a zero sum game
- don't forget that you aren't smart and much less smart than the market, so don't try to be smarter than anyone
- save and invest, but don't go to crazy about it
- don't move your assets around(selling one and buying other) too often, give yourself limits, like 10 times a year. I haven't sold a stock for 5 years and I'm doing well, I promise.
- don't talk about investment with friends or share your gains, you want to make money and grow your assets, not receive some attention you didn't receive from your parents. I see a lot of people doing this mistake and people can either start to be envious of you, or recommend you bullshit, so just say that you invest in some stuff, or even don't mention it at all, if people ask.
My investments have outlived everybody "I personally know"'s trading career and people are now kinda of envy I took the path of taking it slow and accepting I'm dumb. I just accumulate. I don't believe anybody can make money consistently, for a long period of time, doing trading. Avoid trading. Feel free to try it with very little money, so maybe you lose and give up, or if you win(the worst lesson you can get), give it time, you will eventually lose.
My tips/rules:
- buy some books about value investing and read them(don't only buy)
- NEVER buy stock from recommendations
- avoid mainstream media about finance if you can't take it 100% as entertainment. I currently only laugh at analysts when I see it, for instance
- if you mess up, sell it and accept that you lost money
- don't invest in risky stuff a huge percentage, you first need to understand your emotions and how good/bad you react when it falls. this is something you can develop in many years of investing
- as a beginner, have at least 3 types of assets(government bonds, REITs, stocks etc)
- of those at least 3 types of assets, never have 10% of more than any
- feel free to buy crypto, but don't put over 10% in an asset class(crypto)
- don't buy things which you would want to check prices regularly, humans can't handle it
- would you lose your sleep if you lose 3k out of 30k? if so, diversify more
- prefer stocks over indexes, but in the beginning, considering buying a lot of indexes and some stocks you like for you to get the feeling, also other assets types as I've mentioned above
- have at least 80% invested in simple and boring stuff(and change that when you are more experienced, but now, you are a terrible investor, I still consider myself a terrible one).
- create a google spreadsheet and keep track of everything you do. have one sheet that has all the transactions you made, reasoning(why?), prices, mood etc. you don't need to make it fancy, if you have it all listed, as I've told you do to do, you can always create other sheets based on this info, such as tracking your performance etc - avoid tracking your performance, warren buffet got like 17% yearly over a few decades and he's the outlier, don't expect to make more than this and also don't go for opportunities that are too good
- learn how to read a balance sheet of a company it will be good also for your working life
- try to invest every month a value, rather than in big amounts, like in fitness, if you want to get fit, going to the gym everyday is better than going once and working out for 12 hours(good luck with that)
- don't do trading, it is a zero sum game
- don't forget that you aren't smart and much less smart than the market, so don't try to be smarter than anyone
- save and invest, but don't go to crazy about it
- don't move your assets around(selling one and buying other) too often, give yourself limits, like 10 times a year. I haven't sold a stock for 5 years and I'm doing well, I promise.
- don't talk about investment with friends or share your gains, you want to make money and grow your assets, not receive some attention you didn't receive from your parents. I see a lot of people doing this mistake and people can either start to be envious of you, or recommend you bullshit, so just say that you invest in some stuff, or even don't mention it at all, if people ask.
My investments have outlived everybody "I personally know"'s trading career and people are now kinda of envy I took the path of taking it slow and accepting I'm dumb. I just accumulate. I don't believe anybody can make money consistently, for a long period of time, doing trading. Avoid trading. Feel free to try it with very little money, so maybe you lose and give up, or if you win(the worst lesson you can get), give it time, you will eventually lose.
Thanks for the extensive list, I find it very reasonable and most of the things vibrate on my own frequency.
> - avoid mainstream media about finance if you can't take it 100% as entertainment. I currently only laugh at analysts when I see it, for instance
This is because I am asking in HN and not in Bloomberg :), to receive mature and rational experience sharing and not hype bullshit ;)
> - avoid mainstream media about finance if you can't take it 100% as entertainment. I currently only laugh at analysts when I see it, for instance
This is because I am asking in HN and not in Bloomberg :), to receive mature and rational experience sharing and not hype bullshit ;)
No problem, but to be honest, not even here you will find good advice and even my advice is very bad. I think this is the reasoning we should have in general when investing. I bet you worked your ass off to save that money on your own and would be bad to lose it. Any advice is bad, everything should be taken with a truckload of salt.
Roger that
Nice, thorough answer.
You mentioned that :
"of those at least 3 types of assets, never have 10% of more than any"
Could you please elaborate on this? Suppose, I have x as my savings, should I invest only 30% of that in each of these and hold the rest in cash? Is that what you meant? Thanks.
Could you please elaborate on this? Suppose, I have x as my savings, should I invest only 30% of that in each of these and hold the rest in cash? Is that what you meant? Thanks.
It is just a rule of thumb I created for the OP, you can create it as well for yourself any way you want.
It just shows the importance of diversification and mitigation of risk, and real diversification, which means that you aren't diversifying between 5 oil companies stocks, but different types of assets, maybe even contradicting assets, so it hedges you a bit just in case one goes down, the other goes up.
So tha greatly reduces the risk of the OP losing all his money(it can still happen) meanwhile give him some time to figure out things by himself.
It just shows the importance of diversification and mitigation of risk, and real diversification, which means that you aren't diversifying between 5 oil companies stocks, but different types of assets, maybe even contradicting assets, so it hedges you a bit just in case one goes down, the other goes up.
So tha greatly reduces the risk of the OP losing all his money(it can still happen) meanwhile give him some time to figure out things by himself.
Thanks for a great, thorough response Do you have any recommendations on books?
one important consideration of what to invest in is when you plan to sell the investment.
if you plan to need the money within 10 years or less, or can think of plausible scenarios where you would be forced to sell the investment within 10 years or less, it is probably not a great idea to invest the money in the stock market or any similarly volatile investment.
why? because stock prices are volatile and can decline unexpectedly, and may take the best part of a decade to recover, and you don't want to be forced to sell your investment after it has lost value.
if you do want to consider investing in the stock market, some reasonable entry points to start reading are:
* https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started
* http://www.efficientfrontier.com/
if you plan to need the money within 10 years or less, or can think of plausible scenarios where you would be forced to sell the investment within 10 years or less, it is probably not a great idea to invest the money in the stock market or any similarly volatile investment.
why? because stock prices are volatile and can decline unexpectedly, and may take the best part of a decade to recover, and you don't want to be forced to sell your investment after it has lost value.
if you do want to consider investing in the stock market, some reasonable entry points to start reading are:
* https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started
* http://www.efficientfrontier.com/
"In the next 10 years gold is one of the best contrarian plays"
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/how-to-invest-a-million-d...
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/how-to-invest-a-million-d...
If you are new to investing you can check out the r/investing, r/personalfinance, r/eupersonalfinance subreddits. The FAQ-s of those are a great place to start and learn the basics.
Come up with an interesting, complex and amazing idea and hire someone (from upwork? or similar) to implement it.
Tons of good skills could go long way.
Way longer than "investing" in someone else's ideas
Tons of good skills could go long way.
Way longer than "investing" in someone else's ideas
Vanguard FTSE Global All Cap. Fire and forget for 20 years.
Invest in yourself.
Earn a worthwhile degree if you don't have one and have the time and it would make a difference in your life.
Learn how to start a business and start a business.
Earn a worthwhile degree if you don't have one and have the time and it would make a difference in your life.
Learn how to start a business and start a business.
This is a very good advise. And it totally will payoff. I know how the hard work can generate income. I also know how time demanding and life consuming this is.
I am wondering now if I can find ways where the money can generate money and therefore I can enjoy of more "free" time.
I am wondering now if I can find ways where the money can generate money and therefore I can enjoy of more "free" time.
Home deposit may be worth considering and home ownership can be very tax efficient.
5-10% in Bitcoin depending on your risk tolerance. More if you're comfortable losing it.
70% into an index fund
20% keep in cash/gold
10% into some startups via a crowdfunding site
please do NOT get the FOMO and punt it on Cypto!!!
20% keep in cash/gold
10% into some startups via a crowdfunding site
please do NOT get the FOMO and punt it on Cypto!!!
> please do NOT get the FOMO and punt it on Cypto!!!
Too late.. as a stupid experiment I bought, at the beginning of the year, 1500Euros in crypto currencies worth it now 329Euros :/ :)
Too late.. as a stupid experiment I bought, at the beginning of the year, 1500Euros in crypto currencies worth it now 329Euros :/ :)
Lego sets
Amount: 30.000 Euros
I never have had any thought about investing. But I think is time to make something intelligent with this money.
It is worth to say that it is money that I can live without it.
What would you do with this money if your intention would be to make it grow?