Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard(latimes.com)
latimes.com
Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-prison-costs-20170604-htmlstory.html
409 comments
I get it - it's tempting to solve the Harvard Business School issue by sending the MBA students to prison before they wreck havoc on the economy. But I'm not sure their dads would pay the exceeding tuition.
Also, there is the whole question of whether it would be fair to the other prisoners. Pretty soon the prison economy would be infested with cigarette derivatives and yard swaps.
Also, there is the whole question of whether it would be fair to the other prisoners. Pretty soon the prison economy would be infested with cigarette derivatives and yard swaps.
This is a cheap, sensational headline and an article that lacks depth and analysis.
At the end of 2006, there were ~160,000 people in prison "institutions" in the state of California[1]. The design capacity of those institutions was ~79,000 people[1], so the occupation was ~204% of the design capacity.
At the end of 2016, there were ~114k people in prison institutions[2], which was ~134% of the design capacity.
Obviously, if prisons are vastly overcrowded, and over time the number of people in prison is reduced substantially, the per-prisoner cost will sharply increase. There are no financial savings on infrastructure because institutional capacity is still vastly exceeded, and the savings in other areas will not be proportional to the overall drop in prison population because the people released early tend to be less expensive to imprison, as they tend to be incarcerated for less serious crimes.
Whatever one's political allegiance, the fact that the prison system in the state of California has been running at a minimum over 130% of design capacity for the last decade is a tremendously serious issue, and it feels trivialising to make a nonsensical comparison to the cost of university tuition, and to present the fact that per-prisoner costs have risen while prisoner numbers have fallen as anything less than blindingly obvious.
A discussion of the prison crisis in California seems completely worthy of Hacker News, but it shouldn't be based on an article like this.
At the end of 2006, there were ~160,000 people in prison "institutions" in the state of California[1]. The design capacity of those institutions was ~79,000 people[1], so the occupation was ~204% of the design capacity.
At the end of 2016, there were ~114k people in prison institutions[2], which was ~134% of the design capacity.
Obviously, if prisons are vastly overcrowded, and over time the number of people in prison is reduced substantially, the per-prisoner cost will sharply increase. There are no financial savings on infrastructure because institutional capacity is still vastly exceeded, and the savings in other areas will not be proportional to the overall drop in prison population because the people released early tend to be less expensive to imprison, as they tend to be incarcerated for less serious crimes.
Whatever one's political allegiance, the fact that the prison system in the state of California has been running at a minimum over 130% of design capacity for the last decade is a tremendously serious issue, and it feels trivialising to make a nonsensical comparison to the cost of university tuition, and to present the fact that per-prisoner costs have risen while prisoner numbers have fallen as anything less than blindingly obvious.
A discussion of the prison crisis in California seems completely worthy of Hacker News, but it shouldn't be based on an article like this.
[1] http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information_Services_Branch/Monthly/TPOP1A/TPOP1Ad0612.pdf
[2] http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information_Services_Branch/Monthly/TPOP1A/TPOP1Ad1612.pdfI think the Prison Industry should be judged by their recidivism rate. The Prison Guards union in Cali is very, very strong (they were behind the '3 strikes' law, ensuring a lifetime of "clients"). Their pay and benefits should be tied to the recidivism rate.
Prisons should not be training grounds for future criminals, but they are today.
Also: prisons should be shuffled periodically, mixing up the population. That'll prevent the formation of criminal gangs inside. Outside, they'll be living in a diverse, mixed environment anyways; might as well get them started on that inside.
Prisons should not be training grounds for future criminals, but they are today.
Also: prisons should be shuffled periodically, mixing up the population. That'll prevent the formation of criminal gangs inside. Outside, they'll be living in a diverse, mixed environment anyways; might as well get them started on that inside.
Think about that for a second...$75K/yr for abhorrent, yet improving conditions and you'll come to the correct conclusion that contractors are absolutely fleecing not only the p̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ tax payers, but the prisoners themselves.
Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of realizing that she may have left it at the bar. The best part was when I had to fly back out for a court date, they told me they were dropping the charge for an obvious lack of evidence. This decision was made on the actual court date, so I got to waste even more money on airfare and travel ). I was surprised at the entrepreneurial zeal of those who have no issue profiting from misery and suffering. In the LA area at least, many former/older celebrities are investors or owners of prison supply companies. Most notable was Bob Barker's company which sold travel-sized generic toothpaste for $7. In this case, the price is wrong, Bob.
The fingerprinting machine was the size of a ultra-deluxe 70's Xerox machine, regularly needed service, and looked like it had a sticker price around 5 figures (a feature that is just an add-on to $500 phones.) I think that 10x-20x inflation is pretty consistent across the board in the American penal system. The collect calling system is also beyond ridiculous given the near zero cost of landline telecommunications and that most cell phones can't receive collect calls. The food you're eating is the absolute worst (in terms of taste of course) nutritionally. Nearly everything is processed and is done so in the cheapest way possible. When I say as cheap as possible, I mean that the $.49 Nissin Ramen is an actual delicacy (No exaggeration. Some of the inmates would pool their resources together and "cook" the ramen in a giant plastic bag with hot water that surely must be leeching pcb's and/or phthalates from the container.) After a few months of that diet, even the most physically fit people developed a weird type of gut and loss of musculature. I didn't eat anything while there, but I observed that the only nutritional guideline that could possibly be met that of 2K+ calories/day. I know it's not Club Med, but that type of diet is a blocker for any type of rehabilitation. It was depressing to look at and had the effect of making one more docile and depressed.
So while California may spend $75K per prisoner, the value they spend is probably closer to $7K. It's kind of brilliant in a sadistic way, as if the prisons, their programs, food, and environment were designed to maximize recidivism.
Now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if some elements were designed in this way
Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of realizing that she may have left it at the bar. The best part was when I had to fly back out for a court date, they told me they were dropping the charge for an obvious lack of evidence. This decision was made on the actual court date, so I got to waste even more money on airfare and travel ). I was surprised at the entrepreneurial zeal of those who have no issue profiting from misery and suffering. In the LA area at least, many former/older celebrities are investors or owners of prison supply companies. Most notable was Bob Barker's company which sold travel-sized generic toothpaste for $7. In this case, the price is wrong, Bob.
The fingerprinting machine was the size of a ultra-deluxe 70's Xerox machine, regularly needed service, and looked like it had a sticker price around 5 figures (a feature that is just an add-on to $500 phones.) I think that 10x-20x inflation is pretty consistent across the board in the American penal system. The collect calling system is also beyond ridiculous given the near zero cost of landline telecommunications and that most cell phones can't receive collect calls. The food you're eating is the absolute worst (in terms of taste of course) nutritionally. Nearly everything is processed and is done so in the cheapest way possible. When I say as cheap as possible, I mean that the $.49 Nissin Ramen is an actual delicacy (No exaggeration. Some of the inmates would pool their resources together and "cook" the ramen in a giant plastic bag with hot water that surely must be leeching pcb's and/or phthalates from the container.) After a few months of that diet, even the most physically fit people developed a weird type of gut and loss of musculature. I didn't eat anything while there, but I observed that the only nutritional guideline that could possibly be met that of 2K+ calories/day. I know it's not Club Med, but that type of diet is a blocker for any type of rehabilitation. It was depressing to look at and had the effect of making one more docile and depressed.
So while California may spend $75K per prisoner, the value they spend is probably closer to $7K. It's kind of brilliant in a sadistic way, as if the prisons, their programs, food, and environment were designed to maximize recidivism.
Now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if some elements were designed in this way
I live in Bedstuy in Brooklyn, a predominately African American community in NYC. Before this I've lived in Albany, NY; Bushwick; and in the housing projects in Brownsville.
NY has recently taken a significant step forward in ensuring adequate access to higher education through the legislature's and Cuomo's initiative to bring tuition free higher education to all NYS residents.
I've become part of several minority communities and met many people with circumstances not so fortunate as mine. It is unbelievable to hear how such a large percentage of these young men have spent time in prison. During highschool I found it odd that in a school with a greater than 60% African American community the AP and IBO classes I was enrolled in were consistently 90% white. I skipped a lot of class back then and was always amazed by the peers who, despite by all standards being considered "the bad kids", could tear a car apart and build it all back together again.
In the projects in Brownsville I learned that my girlfriends mother had secured some sort of video shooting arrangement, she said the entire neighborhood would turn out in their Sunday's finest when the cameras were around. Everyone wanted to see what was going on.
In the projects in Brownsville I noticed an abject lack of activity spaces and an abject lack of green. Brownsville is one of the poorest communities in NYC and it consists primarily of a large number of bleak housing project buildings arrayed across several blocks. I have never heard so many sirens as I did in Brownsville. In the short month I was there my girlfriends mother literally walked into a shoot out to calm some of the younger community members down.
I've always thought to myself that I could do anything anyone else could do (well not always, took a lot of introspection in highschool). I mean, look at the person doing it. They have two arms, I have two arms. They have two legs, I have two legs. They've got a head and brain and I have exactly the same.
It would clearly be obnoxious not to believe in any other person the same way. I believe we're very fortunate to ride the subways in NYC because when you see a child hankering for a balloon you realize that child is just like any other.
I applaud this effort. I've met so many people who are smart as whips and deserve the access to the opportunities and future I had and have.
And that's why I believe the solution starts from the ground up.
NY has recently taken a significant step forward in ensuring adequate access to higher education through the legislature's and Cuomo's initiative to bring tuition free higher education to all NYS residents.
I've become part of several minority communities and met many people with circumstances not so fortunate as mine. It is unbelievable to hear how such a large percentage of these young men have spent time in prison. During highschool I found it odd that in a school with a greater than 60% African American community the AP and IBO classes I was enrolled in were consistently 90% white. I skipped a lot of class back then and was always amazed by the peers who, despite by all standards being considered "the bad kids", could tear a car apart and build it all back together again.
In the projects in Brownsville I learned that my girlfriends mother had secured some sort of video shooting arrangement, she said the entire neighborhood would turn out in their Sunday's finest when the cameras were around. Everyone wanted to see what was going on.
In the projects in Brownsville I noticed an abject lack of activity spaces and an abject lack of green. Brownsville is one of the poorest communities in NYC and it consists primarily of a large number of bleak housing project buildings arrayed across several blocks. I have never heard so many sirens as I did in Brownsville. In the short month I was there my girlfriends mother literally walked into a shoot out to calm some of the younger community members down.
I've always thought to myself that I could do anything anyone else could do (well not always, took a lot of introspection in highschool). I mean, look at the person doing it. They have two arms, I have two arms. They have two legs, I have two legs. They've got a head and brain and I have exactly the same.
It would clearly be obnoxious not to believe in any other person the same way. I believe we're very fortunate to ride the subways in NYC because when you see a child hankering for a balloon you realize that child is just like any other.
I applaud this effort. I've met so many people who are smart as whips and deserve the access to the opportunities and future I had and have.
And that's why I believe the solution starts from the ground up.
The article forgot to mention that the California prison guards union bankrolls most California politicians. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peac...
Strangely, I was just reading about the costs of prison in California because I read an article about "the grave injustice of mandatory sentencing" [1] and was curious about the associated costs to taxpayers.
I don't feel personally affected by this issue, but I get the sense we are sentencing too many people for too long for non-violent drug offenses.
Anyway, the cost of the prison system in California is about $7.9 billion according to:
https://www.vera.org/publications/the-price-of-prisons-what-...
or (given 39 million people in California) about $200 per taxpayer (no, that's not the best metric).
If the cost per prisoner is going up because we're releasing people from prisons this year, that's probably a good thing.
[1] http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/02/politics/mandatory-minimum-sen...
I don't feel personally affected by this issue, but I get the sense we are sentencing too many people for too long for non-violent drug offenses.
Anyway, the cost of the prison system in California is about $7.9 billion according to:
https://www.vera.org/publications/the-price-of-prisons-what-...
or (given 39 million people in California) about $200 per taxpayer (no, that's not the best metric).
If the cost per prisoner is going up because we're releasing people from prisons this year, that's probably a good thing.
[1] http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/02/politics/mandatory-minimum-sen...
Does the number include the housing and living costs for the students?
edit: sorry, that was not a polemic post. But if the number for the students excludes stuff like food, rent or other living costs (e.g. medical checkups) that are "included" with prisoners, the gap might be smaller.
I just checked the numbers for Germany, on the average, a prisoner costs 3281,40 Euro per month, so about 40k Euro or 45k USD per year. So, yeah, it seems like California is getting shafted, somehow.
edit: sorry, that was not a polemic post. But if the number for the students excludes stuff like food, rent or other living costs (e.g. medical checkups) that are "included" with prisoners, the gap might be smaller.
I just checked the numbers for Germany, on the average, a prisoner costs 3281,40 Euro per month, so about 40k Euro or 45k USD per year. So, yeah, it seems like California is getting shafted, somehow.
Another option is to put non-violent offenders in camps. The deal is if they stay in the camp and follow the rules, they can serve out their sentence there. Run away and they go to the real prisons.
Bizarre comparison!
Prisons need to safely and securely provide accommodation for "high-risk, high-need" human beings to survive and be rehabilitated.
Universities have a wholly different set of requirements.
Prisons need to safely and securely provide accommodation for "high-risk, high-need" human beings to survive and be rehabilitated.
Universities have a wholly different set of requirements.
Remember when "university" meant "for anyone"? Why should Harvard tuition fees cost anywhere near what it costs to incarcerate someone 24/7?
It would probably be good for society if those prisoners who wanted would be sent to a school instead. I can't imagine a better punishment!
Love when the problem as stated contains its own solution.
Gonna throw some weird idea about prison, what about:
- Smaller but individual cells. (have to think about how to keep them very clean)
- No outside yard for crowd.
- No plural bathroom.
Everything you do is for the benefit of society 90% and the rest for you.
- Clean something outside, plant trees I don't know, so you get walk, sun and forest time.
- You can read books, or some journals.
- You can talk to old wise persons.
- You don't have TV, video games.
- You can work (producing parts, fixing things) again for the benefit of society.
- You can do exercice: biking, rowing. Qi gong or Yoga too. (bonus, plug bikes to generate electricity)
- You get simple healthy food: raw veggies, some meat, some fruits. No sauce, no dessert.
Basically a cheap mindful retreat with optional work. Lowering costs as much as possible and prisonner suffering at the same time. You can improve your mind and your body while paying your mistake by being cut from the group. Nothing more.
- Smaller but individual cells. (have to think about how to keep them very clean)
- No outside yard for crowd.
- No plural bathroom.
Everything you do is for the benefit of society 90% and the rest for you.
- Clean something outside, plant trees I don't know, so you get walk, sun and forest time.
- You can read books, or some journals.
- You can talk to old wise persons.
- You don't have TV, video games.
- You can work (producing parts, fixing things) again for the benefit of society.
- You can do exercice: biking, rowing. Qi gong or Yoga too. (bonus, plug bikes to generate electricity)
- You get simple healthy food: raw veggies, some meat, some fruits. No sauce, no dessert.
Basically a cheap mindful retreat with optional work. Lowering costs as much as possible and prisonner suffering at the same time. You can improve your mind and your body while paying your mistake by being cut from the group. Nothing more.
At more than $200 a night you can spend a whole year at a spa. What do the prisoners get for that money? The daily cost for food seems to be about $2 and they live in overcrowded cells. Sounds like a very profitable business for someone.
The other way of looking at this story is that Harvard nearly costs $75,000 per year despite being tax exempt with billions of dollars of tax deductible donations/endowment.
If you haven't, Netflix's has a documentary called 13TH[1] where a loop hole in the slavery abolishment act was used to mass incarcerate blacks in the USA. As indicated in other threads, USA is inhabited with just 5% of the world's population but runs 25% of all prisons.
[1] https://www.netflix.com/in/title/80091741
[1] https://www.netflix.com/in/title/80091741
Headline is an outright clickbait lie contradicted by the lead sentence; it doesn't cost more than the all-in annual cost of Harvard, but more than tuition.
Not that the comparison is particularly meaningful in any case, since it's not like sending convicts to Harvard instead is an available alternative.
Not that the comparison is particularly meaningful in any case, since it's not like sending convicts to Harvard instead is an available alternative.
Reminds me of the article about million dollar blocks.
http://www.npr.org/2012/10/02/162149431/million-dollar-block...
http://www.npr.org/2012/10/02/162149431/million-dollar-block...
Does this include housing, food, healthcare, etc. for Harvard figure? Looks like not, so the comparison is kinda meaningless.
Also:
Also:
The price for each inmate has doubled since 2005, even as
court orders related to overcrowding have reduced the
population by about one-quarter. Salaries and benefits for
prison guards and medical providers drove much of the increase.
~9 billion/year total? That would be enough to establish a penal colony on moon, perhaps?
Wait. Im missing something, if there is one employee per every 2 inmates that means each employee earns in the range of Min Wage to 152,000. How much of this is driven by employee salary and how much by administrative and over head costs? Is this just because the cost of living in california is so high they have to pay their guards six digits and above?
Fittingly, it's also a better career move to become a prison guard than attend Harvard:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704132204576285...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704132204576285...
is the need for prison simply the side effect of a population density that is too high? But that is a different topic. The issue is the cost of incarceration and how a once noble idea (eliminating bad behavior instead of eliminating the owner) has been 'corporatized'. It seems a fundamental rhythm of human activity is to express the goodness in us with a new idea. The evil in us then tries to maximize profit and efficiency resulting in a loss function that destroys initially unrecognized but important parameters of humanity.
Seems like a colossal waste of limited resources and tax revenue.
Maybe every non-violent criminal should be put on house arrest with an ankle bracelet instead? Then they can work off a fine, do community service, etc?
Maybe every non-violent criminal should be put on house arrest with an ankle bracelet instead? Then they can work off a fine, do community service, etc?
That is just California being California.
Other states are cheaper. If you really wanted to be cheap, you could outsource to a foreign country. You could fly people to the other side of the world and still save money.
Other states are cheaper. If you really wanted to be cheap, you could outsource to a foreign country. You could fly people to the other side of the world and still save money.
Do people not realize almost the entire CJS is basically a jobs program for the very people whom directly influence how the laws are made that self-perpetuate their incomes?
That usually works out well, right?
That usually works out well, right?
This is what privatization leads to. Hand off a government function to a profit-seeking organization, well, it's gonna seek profits; the taxpayer winds up paying for the thing and also for someone else to make their profits off the thing.
Seriously has there ever been a situation where privatizing an industry led to actually reduced costs, and didn't lead to reduced quality of output? Even if you accept the (IMHO dubious) premise that private industry is necessarily going to be more efficient than government-run industry, the efficiency gain has to be greater than the profit-taking for it to be a worthwhile tradeoff for the taxpayer.
Seriously has there ever been a situation where privatizing an industry led to actually reduced costs, and didn't lead to reduced quality of output? Even if you accept the (IMHO dubious) premise that private industry is necessarily going to be more efficient than government-run industry, the efficiency gain has to be greater than the profit-taking for it to be a worthwhile tradeoff for the taxpayer.
Government runs something inefficiently. That is a big news! Nah. It is known.
This is prison industrial complex at play fueled by insecurities of average American.
This is prison industrial complex at play fueled by insecurities of average American.
Financial profiting from prisoners: Prison Labor - paid $0.93-0.16/hr California Prisons didn't want to release prisoners because they would loose cheap labor..Courts said they had to: https://thinkprogress.org/california-tells-court-it-cant-rel...
30% of California forest firefighters are prisoners .. The state argued against parole credit for these prisoners as it would draw down the labor force and lead to depletion of the firefighter force.
Someone already mentioned the profit of commissaries. Some are actually run by private companies operating inside the prison