India blocks Colgate patents for spices(deccanherald.com)
deccanherald.com
India blocks Colgate patents for spices
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/490282/india-blocks-colgate-patents-spices.html
7 comments
The textbook pro-patent argument is that giving out a short-term monopoly increases the benefits of R&D. A company would have less to gain from developing a new product if anyone could then produce it.
If you want to abolish patents, you need to create a new system by which companies can benefit from their innovation.
If you want to abolish patents, you need to create a new system by which companies can benefit from their innovation.
Most of the time, I don't think you do. I think innovation is still going to happen anyway. For example, I think companies would have still made mobile phones and furthermore I think they would be better without patents because one maker wouldn't be arbitrarily restricted from using some idea-that-was-going-to-happen-anyway-because-the-time-was-right because another patented it. What is lost in monopolies is more than made up for in reduced overhead and ability to move quicker and come up with superior solutions because you are allowed to build on more ideas than you otherwise would. In some instances perhaps patents do act to expedite innovation (instances where time/cost to market is very high), but I think these are in the minority and that there is probably a better legal / tax / grant / political solution to that than granting of monopolies on ideas.
I am a cofounder of a small company that has a patented process for removing oil spills. We are not in the green yet but the only reason we could hold out against the big oil companies in the face of any attempt to take over our technology was the patent. Patents are not the best option, but for truly innovative approaches to problems an inventor has very few options.
The above patent in the OP is egregious, and I can't really support it.
To your point, innovation may happen, but the inventor may not get compensated along the way. Patents try to bridge the gap. They are not perfect, but they do seem to work, in my opinion.
The above patent in the OP is egregious, and I can't really support it.
To your point, innovation may happen, but the inventor may not get compensated along the way. Patents try to bridge the gap. They are not perfect, but they do seem to work, in my opinion.
Two points here:
1. I'm more inclined to judge a policy by the net benefits to society rather than specific participants in it.
2. I actually think the patent system favors large enterprise more often than it does small companies. For a number of reasons. One of them being so much is patented you need a large portfolio of covering things your competitors are probably infringing on as a deterrent from them suing you or counter attack if they do. etc. As a small player, you can't do this.
Your example is perhaps one of how the system was envisaged to work - though I'd be interested to know how you go if ever you needed to finance legal proceedings against a big corporate.
1. I'm more inclined to judge a policy by the net benefits to society rather than specific participants in it.
2. I actually think the patent system favors large enterprise more often than it does small companies. For a number of reasons. One of them being so much is patented you need a large portfolio of covering things your competitors are probably infringing on as a deterrent from them suing you or counter attack if they do. etc. As a small player, you can't do this.
Your example is perhaps one of how the system was envisaged to work - though I'd be interested to know how you go if ever you needed to finance legal proceedings against a big corporate.
What about pharmaceuticals? These are a major arena of patents, where the R&D is measured in the billions of dollars per drug with massive profit margins on successful drugs and tiny profit margins on generics once the patents have expired. What do you think the best alternative is to patents? Government-sponsored research (which already contributes a lot to pharmaceuticals by paying for low level research) or something else?
Government-sponsored research would eliminate the perverse incentives of patent-based research, and the fight against disease is absolutely a concern of the public sector.
You were just presented with a case where nothing was invented, a drug was simply looked up in a commonly known ancient text. Colgate owes India damages.
You're right, that's the sort of thing that seems to deserve neither a patent nor any other sort of monopoly. But my question is about the many billions of dollars spent on other sorts of pharmaceutical development. Or is your argument that cases like this one outweigh the benefits derived from drug development in cases where it requires genuine, prolonged, and expensive research effort?
I think corporate drug research is a flawed development model. It have varying amounts of immoral, amoral and antimoral. To have a _monopoly_ on life saving cures doesn't make sense. Esp how we have seen drug patents wielded against countries with no ability to pay otherwise, for markets that were and will not ever be available to those pharmaceuticals.
Drug research should be publicly funded and the results given away to all. Not just because it the right thing to do, but because it is the most efficient.
Drug research should be publicly funded and the results given away to all. Not just because it the right thing to do, but because it is the most efficient.
Yes, I think there would be some system of government sponsorship that would more efficiently deliver the same benefits to society. On the other hand, you can probably rely on governments to screw it up, and it's a tricky issue so I'm open to changing my mind (on extremely high cost to develop patents only).
People need to realize that intellectual-property not a right, it is an exception to the right of freedom of speech. Too many people in power seem to have forgotten/chosen to ignore that.
`How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation`
Sometimes its not about innovation. Many companies buy patents and make high priced drugs. These drugs can be made available to the poor for very less price, but patents like these block local makers from doing so.
Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/sunday-times/all-tha...
Sometimes its not about innovation. Many companies buy patents and make high priced drugs. These drugs can be made available to the poor for very less price, but patents like these block local makers from doing so.
Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/sunday-times/all-tha...
"Hitherto [1848] it is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day's toil of any human being. ... Only when, in addition to just institutions, the increase of mankind shall be under the deliberate guidance of judicious foresight, can the conquests made from the powers of nature by the intellect and energy of scientific discoverers become the common property of the species, and the means of improving and elevating the universal lot." Wrote J.S. Mill. I do not see us getting anywhere near this state of society, certainly not as long we "need" jobs.
Patents and copyright are essentially regulatory capture, they didn't start out that way... but every time they start asking for more and more rights for longer periods of time or argue for rights of corporations rather than individuals who produced the works, they are in the territory of regulatory capture and rent seeking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
and rent seeking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
and rent seeking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
> abolished patents
> How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have jumped from "patents" to "patenting combinations of spices" here. I don't think that you did this intentionally, but you replaced the topic in between; first, you formulate your thesis as "we should abolishing patents", and later, you seem to be proving it, but you really only prove a different thesis, "we should abolish patenting combination of spices".
Don't you see the difference between these two?
> How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have jumped from "patents" to "patenting combinations of spices" here. I don't think that you did this intentionally, but you replaced the topic in between; first, you formulate your thesis as "we should abolishing patents", and later, you seem to be proving it, but you really only prove a different thesis, "we should abolish patenting combination of spices".
Don't you see the difference between these two?
Err, this is called exemplification. It is a common rhetorical device. Really this could have done with any patent, which all need to go.
With any? Really?
For the longest time I have been wondering when a pharma would try to patent Neem for tooth/other medicinal uses. Little did I know that the patent application had already happened.
I am glad such a repository exists to handle prior art for Indian medicines. I am worried about African/other poor countries that are unable to protect their indigenous medicinal use cases since they may lack the repository. Perhaps they can piggy back on the Indian effort or may be a worthy premise for a socially oriented startup with some funding from the big and/or little names in VC.
I am glad such a repository exists to handle prior art for Indian medicines. I am worried about African/other poor countries that are unable to protect their indigenous medicinal use cases since they may lack the repository. Perhaps they can piggy back on the Indian effort or may be a worthy premise for a socially oriented startup with some funding from the big and/or little names in VC.
In a 100 years perhaps all human endeavor will be about fighting over imaginary monopolies.
On that note: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2834 (it's a textual story, not a comic)
On that note: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2834 (it's a textual story, not a comic)
It's comics like this that remind me just how much better SMBC is than, say, XKCD. It's got teeth. Munroe's stuff is basically the stick figure equivalent of TED talks--people who aren't that clever or smart read them to tell other not that clever and smart people how clever and smart they are because they read XKCD.
> Imagine all the countless hour of pointless human labor that could be saved if we simply abolished patents.
For example, all the time that pharmaceutical companies "waste" developing new drugs would be saved!
For example, all the time that pharmaceutical companies "waste" developing new drugs would be saved!
Maybe drugs shouldn't be "invented" by pharmaceutical companies? Is a company always the best organizational structure?
Perhaps not, but I'm not aware of an individual developing a new drug within the last N years, for some large value of N.
Developing/discovering, most likely yes. Clinical trials, not possible.
I said nothing of individuals, that isn't the dichotomy. All groups are not companies.
I said nothing of individuals, that isn't the dichotomy. All groups are not companies.
These spice mixtures sound an awful lot like recipes, rather than inventions, and recipes should already be unpatentable (in the US, anyway). I suppose there must be some technical, legal distinction between a recipe and an invention, which Colgate has latched onto here.
The nice thing about patents is that in finite time they go public domain (unlike copyright). It is an oft overlooked value.
Some background on the TKDL: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-battle-for-...
Kudos to the Indian government for coming up with an effective way to combat these bogus patents.
Kudos to the Indian government for coming up with an effective way to combat these bogus patents.
OT but this is not the first comment to I don't think I am hijacking.
Page loads fine (Actually started reading the article) then goes to http://www.deccanherald.com/enable_javascript.html
How retro (Plus the fact that the page actually DOES work without JS...)
Page loads fine (Actually started reading the article) then goes to http://www.deccanherald.com/enable_javascript.html
How retro (Plus the fact that the page actually DOES work without JS...)
the "prior art" for this is ancient Indian textbooks of medicine - http://www.tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/common/SourceInfo.as...
The TKDL (Traditional Knowledge Digital Library) interface really sucks.. but still has useful info.
Ayurveda - http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/Ayurveda/Ayu_Advancesear...
Unani (Islamic Indian medicine) -http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/Unani/Una_Advancesearch....
Siddha (South Indian medicine) - http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/siddha/Sid_Advancesearch...
Try searching for something like "basil". you get comprehensive formulae for ancient indian recipes, methods of application,etc.
The TKDL (Traditional Knowledge Digital Library) interface really sucks.. but still has useful info.
Ayurveda - http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/Ayurveda/Ayu_Advancesear...
Unani (Islamic Indian medicine) -http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/Unani/Una_Advancesearch....
Siddha (South Indian medicine) - http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/siddha/Sid_Advancesearch...
Try searching for something like "basil". you get comprehensive formulae for ancient indian recipes, methods of application,etc.
"Dalchini", BTW, is literally "lentil sugar". Put some in your lentils for added yum.
This is probably a misspelling for darchini, i.e. cinnamon
It's not a misspelling: the Hindi word is dalchini, and the Bengali word is darchini.
That's interesting, because my Urdu speaking family in Karachi always says darchini for some reason.
cf. http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.p...
cf. http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.p...
I've always heard it pronounced as "dalchini", in Hindi and three different regional languages (Bengali, Odia, and Marathi).
Interesting. We always say "darchini" too.
Native speaker here. Dalchini is the correct Hindi word for cinnamon. Think of it as the English word underdog.
"You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine." - Tim Minchin
This quote used to really sum up my opinion, but the more time I've spent growing and eating and researching a variety of plants/herbs/spices, it's quite clear that many of them do have quite a lot of beneficial health effects, often unique in being more effective or having less side-effects than western medicine. Plants have chemical-producing machinery that is in many ways far more advanced than what humans have developed.
And many of them have been under-researched, I think both because of 20th century biases and the regulatory/patent environment, so in fact there's quite a gap between what we call medicine and treatments in alternative medicine which could be reasonably considered likely beneficial/effective.
Just as an example, go read the Wikipedia pages and some assorted Googled info on what was listed in the article: nutmeg, ginger, “Bakul” tree, camphor, cinnamon, turmeric, Indian banyan, black pepper, long pepper, Neem and clove.
This quote used to really sum up my opinion, but the more time I've spent growing and eating and researching a variety of plants/herbs/spices, it's quite clear that many of them do have quite a lot of beneficial health effects, often unique in being more effective or having less side-effects than western medicine. Plants have chemical-producing machinery that is in many ways far more advanced than what humans have developed.
And many of them have been under-researched, I think both because of 20th century biases and the regulatory/patent environment, so in fact there's quite a gap between what we call medicine and treatments in alternative medicine which could be reasonably considered likely beneficial/effective.
Just as an example, go read the Wikipedia pages and some assorted Googled info on what was listed in the article: nutmeg, ginger, “Bakul” tree, camphor, cinnamon, turmeric, Indian banyan, black pepper, long pepper, Neem and clove.
"artifical" medicine is all about having a specific dosage of the active chemical.. if you are consuming raw herbs then chances are you have no idea what dosage of the active chemical you are taking, which can affect the quality of your treatment. Given the importance of dosage (it can be the difference between medicine and poison) Tim Minchin was 100% correct.
Nothing about your included quote and the rest of your comment are mutually exclusive. The issue here is "proved". There are many, many natural remedies that have been noted to have beneficial effects. That said, the research on them may not be adequate to be viewed by the medical establishment as a known quantity. When you go to the doctor for an ailment, do you want a solution that's been shown through testing to work on 80% of people, or one that you've heard about with unknown effectiveness, and unknown side-effects?
Randomized medical trials are expensive, and pharmaceutical companies aren't exactly incentivized to do them for natural medicines, since they can't patent the result. Absurdly, additional patent capabilities here might actually help reduce that problem.
Randomized medical trials are expensive, and pharmaceutical companies aren't exactly incentivized to do them for natural medicines, since they can't patent the result. Absurdly, additional patent capabilities here might actually help reduce that problem.
"Just as an example, go read the Wikipedia pages and some assorted Googled info on what was listed in the article: nutmeg, ginger, “Bakul” tree, camphor, cinnamon, turmeric, Indian banyan, black pepper, long pepper, Neem and clove."
Actually, there's a shortcut - just read about aspirin.
It's very effective, it has truly medicinal uses, and is (for most folks) "western" medicine.
And it's just tree bark.
Actually, there's a shortcut - just read about aspirin.
It's very effective, it has truly medicinal uses, and is (for most folks) "western" medicine.
And it's just tree bark.
absolutely.
so please, once you have a serious condition only take your spices.
no penicilin (or does it count as mold?), no insulin, no aneasthesia for you. just a little cinnamon.
wear glasses or contacts? away with them! a little pepper in your eyes works wonders.
and they wonder why seattle has lower polio vaccines rates than kazakhstan or tchad.
so please, once you have a serious condition only take your spices.
no penicilin (or does it count as mold?), no insulin, no aneasthesia for you. just a little cinnamon.
wear glasses or contacts? away with them! a little pepper in your eyes works wonders.
and they wonder why seattle has lower polio vaccines rates than kazakhstan or tchad.
English is not my first language, but I kinda read the OP's post as "Guys, we should throw some money in investigating some natural remedies, using the scientific method and stripping them of bullshit, to see what works, why and how"
Javascript required.
In firefox: Preferences -> Advanced -> enable "Warn me when websites try to redirect or reload the page".
Other browsers will probably have similar options.
Other browsers will probably have similar options.
But then again I suppose this "solves" the problem that there's not enough productive work to go around.
In a 100 years perhaps all human endeavor will be about fighting over imaginary monopolies.