This shouldn’t be the image of Hack Day(simonwillison.net)
simonwillison.net
This shouldn’t be the image of Hack Day
http://simonwillison.net/2009/Oct/19/hackday/
77 comments
I'd add a third point:
- It makes male programmers look socially inept, weak, and sophomoric. I don't like the perception or suggestion that I'll appreciate bought eye-candy at a technology conference.
- It makes male programmers look socially inept, weak, and sophomoric. I don't like the perception or suggestion that I'll appreciate bought eye-candy at a technology conference.
No it doesn't, and anyone who would draw a conclusion about an entire profession from the actions of a handful (positive or negative) can, in my opinion, go fuck off.
> I'd be interested to know if any of the commenters defending the conference agree or disagree that it's important to get more women into our field?
I think it's important to get intellegent people into the field, regardless of gender. However, it's foolish to judge a conference in a far-off land by our system of morals.
I think it's important to get intellegent people into the field, regardless of gender. However, it's foolish to judge a conference in a far-off land by our system of morals.
> However, it's foolish to judge a conference in a far-off land by our system of morals.
I strongly disagree.
The country where I live (Canada) is the fourth in my life (after Portugal, Angola and Brazil). I also visited more than a dozen other.
The system of morals that people embrace in Canada is one of the main reasons I choosed to live here. And I believe that I have enough multicultural experience to say that no, it isn't foolish.
Same cultures are better than others. How do you know? Because there is an absolute in morals: don't do to others what you wouldn't want they did to you. You can derive a lot of judgements from there.
I strongly disagree.
The country where I live (Canada) is the fourth in my life (after Portugal, Angola and Brazil). I also visited more than a dozen other.
The system of morals that people embrace in Canada is one of the main reasons I choosed to live here. And I believe that I have enough multicultural experience to say that no, it isn't foolish.
Same cultures are better than others. How do you know? Because there is an absolute in morals: don't do to others what you wouldn't want they did to you. You can derive a lot of judgements from there.
Props to you for getting around and seeing that much of the world as a person living there. It sure makes your argument carry a lot more weight.
Where are you in Canada ? (West, East, Middle ?) Have you gotten used to the winters yet ?
Where are you in Canada ? (West, East, Middle ?) Have you gotten used to the winters yet ?
Also, from a personal perspective, it makes the assumption that all the male coders in the room are straight, which is in some ways an even more insidious assumption.
You can look at the room and say "okay, sure, there are no women at this event". You can't do that with sexuality -- but people do anyway.
(I feel I should note that this unfortunate, embarrassing incident aside, Yahoo is an incredibly, almost ridiculously gay-friendly place to work)
You can look at the room and say "okay, sure, there are no women at this event". You can't do that with sexuality -- but people do anyway.
(I feel I should note that this unfortunate, embarrassing incident aside, Yahoo is an incredibly, almost ridiculously gay-friendly place to work)
There used to be more women in the field apparently. Coolest compiler researcher ever is Fran Allen who worked at IBM. Her interview in Coders At Work is great.
[deleted]
> We're missing out on 50% of the people who could be good engineers.
Much as many of us would like to believe it, where is the evidence for this statement?
Decreeing a politically-correct gospel and punishing heretics for denying it doesn't make it true.
Much as many of us would like to believe it, where is the evidence for this statement?
Decreeing a politically-correct gospel and punishing heretics for denying it doesn't make it true.
The most plausible explanation for the imbalance is that women don't lack the innate ability, they're discouraged from developing it. Why do I say that?
- Some professions requiring comparable skills (eg actuaries, accounting) contain many more women.
- There's no known mechanism or evidence to explain why women might be innately bad at programming, but there's lots of well-documented mechanisms by which women could be discouraged from joining the community.
I'd be happy to learn from evidence that contradicts this argument, but in the absence of that, the simplest explanation is that we're wasting the potential of thousands of proto-programmers.
- Some professions requiring comparable skills (eg actuaries, accounting) contain many more women.
- There's no known mechanism or evidence to explain why women might be innately bad at programming, but there's lots of well-documented mechanisms by which women could be discouraged from joining the community.
I'd be happy to learn from evidence that contradicts this argument, but in the absence of that, the simplest explanation is that we're wasting the potential of thousands of proto-programmers.
Yes, how dare someone on the other side of the world do something that doesn't fit with contemporary American standards for what is professional! Clearly this is the fault of the technology industry, as a whole. Just like the energy industry is clearly not inclusive because of how middle-eastern oil-producing countries treat women. </sarcasm>
Seriously, can we please stop seeking out any instance of anything inappropriate and then using it to slander an entire industry? The fact that something potentially sexist happened somewhere doesn't mean that discrimination is rampant throughout the industry.
Seriously, can we please stop seeking out any instance of anything inappropriate and then using it to slander an entire industry? The fact that something potentially sexist happened somewhere doesn't mean that discrimination is rampant throughout the industry.
Firstly, I'm British.
Secondly, I'm not arguing that this incident proves our industry is sexist. My argument is that the low number of women involved in our industry is a problem, and one thing we can do to address that problem is to have a zero tolerance attitude to this kind of thing.
Thirdly, I couldn't care less about "professionalism". The first London Hack Day had people playing Faceball on stage! I care about behaviour that makes a portion of the potential audience feel uncomfortable or unwelcome.
Secondly, I'm not arguing that this incident proves our industry is sexist. My argument is that the low number of women involved in our industry is a problem, and one thing we can do to address that problem is to have a zero tolerance attitude to this kind of thing.
Thirdly, I couldn't care less about "professionalism". The first London Hack Day had people playing Faceball on stage! I care about behaviour that makes a portion of the potential audience feel uncomfortable or unwelcome.
I imagine a far greater proportion of the potential audience consists of (guys who get offended on behalf of women for sexist behaviour) than consists of (women who may or may not care). On that basis this behaviour should be stopped. Not because zero tolerance is the right answer; that way lies political correctness gone mad.
Now why on earth would that get you modded down ?
I fully agree with you.
I'm a male and I would have been quite disappointed at this whole thing, and I certainly don't get 'upset' at seeing scantily clad females, the beaches here are full of them.
The problem is the context, as if women on a gathering like that have nothing but 'decorative' functions, and as if all men would find such a display appropriate.
I also think that regardless of how far from 'home' this happened if that's yahoos' approach to this kind of event anywhere that it reflects bad on them as a company. The apology that is linked to from here is actually pretty weak.
It shows a certain disrespect.
I fully agree with you.
I'm a male and I would have been quite disappointed at this whole thing, and I certainly don't get 'upset' at seeing scantily clad females, the beaches here are full of them.
The problem is the context, as if women on a gathering like that have nothing but 'decorative' functions, and as if all men would find such a display appropriate.
I also think that regardless of how far from 'home' this happened if that's yahoos' approach to this kind of event anywhere that it reflects bad on them as a company. The apology that is linked to from here is actually pretty weak.
It shows a certain disrespect.
> My argument is that the low number of women involved in our industry is a problem
Why? Can't individuals, whatever their gender, make up their minds freely about what they want to do with their lives?
Why? Can't individuals, whatever their gender, make up their minds freely about what they want to do with their lives?
People are way too sensitive. Looks like they hired Go Go dancers for a party. Probably not the best idea in the world but people trying to use this as an example of the "shame" of the IT worlds sexism are just grand standing. There are not a lot of women in IT because up until recently it was considered a mark against socially to be a nerd. Now with the growing popularity of nerd culture and the high incentives to be in that field there will be a more diverse crowd. Or maybe there will always be more men then women because women are less interested in technological fields. Sorry if that's not a popular opinion but I'm not interested in many fields of study and have not slammed one for being in anyway discriminatory against me. It certainly won't be because Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are sending out masses of men wearing NO MAAM t-shirts to tack no girls allowed signs on the the computer labs across the country. If anything the same loosely regulated and relaxed environment, common in many IT fields and shops, that would make them think nothing of hiring dancers for a party is the same attitude that would welcome anyone regardless of looks, sex, race, or anything else.
Tens of millions are in slavery as we speak.
People in some countries cannot get free information and the government closely monitors what they watch and do.
Some countries still "harvest" organs from condemned prisoners to sell on the open market.
And yet we find time to get outraged over a couple of pretty girls lap-dancing a couple of geeks at some conference.
Modern morality is an interesting thing. It seems that it rests on how easy it is to pass judgment, how many people will agree with you when you do, and having the appropriate degree of self-flagellation.
People in some countries cannot get free information and the government closely monitors what they watch and do.
Some countries still "harvest" organs from condemned prisoners to sell on the open market.
And yet we find time to get outraged over a couple of pretty girls lap-dancing a couple of geeks at some conference.
Modern morality is an interesting thing. It seems that it rests on how easy it is to pass judgment, how many people will agree with you when you do, and having the appropriate degree of self-flagellation.
I usually don't agree with "don't solve problem X, because Y and Z are worse" (society isn't exactly like prioritizing bugs), but in this case - right on.
I think the best argument against the dancers is that it is tasteless -- or at least seems so to most of the readers here. I honestly don't know if it seemed tasteless to conference attendees or not. I also don't know if it was a major part of the conference or could easily be skipped by those who didn't like it.
I try to be an easy-going guy. Nobody is being harmed here. More troubling is the tendency to mouth-off about "easy" things like this while saying things like "every culture is okay" when it comes to things like the secret police or freedom of information. That just seems completely moronic to me.
I try to be an easy-going guy. Nobody is being harmed here. More troubling is the tendency to mouth-off about "easy" things like this while saying things like "every culture is okay" when it comes to things like the secret police or freedom of information. That just seems completely moronic to me.
Unfortunately it has been decided (in the rest of the comments) that we're not allowed to do anything about, or even comment on, any of these problems, even if done by Western companies in foreign lands, because to do so would be cultural imperialism.
I've attended both the London Yahoo hackday's myself and found them wonderfully well run by lovely people.
Personally, I would feel terribly uncomfortable if they had booked dancers like this for entertainment. It is a bad idea for two differing reasons.
1. I attend hackdays to build things. Not for loud bands, giant jenga or lap dancing. The intention is hacking, surprisingly. Organisers should focus their energy and resources on good wifi, nice apis, etc that appeal to the hackday audience instead of any form of auxiliary entertainment.
2. There seems to be a slight gender imbalance at hackdays. I don't think lap dancers are going to help that.
Even if this is the local 'norm', Yahoo hackday is a global brand. When people see behaviour like this, it marks the whole tech community as either misogynistic or ladish.
Personally, I would feel terribly uncomfortable if they had booked dancers like this for entertainment. It is a bad idea for two differing reasons.
1. I attend hackdays to build things. Not for loud bands, giant jenga or lap dancing. The intention is hacking, surprisingly. Organisers should focus their energy and resources on good wifi, nice apis, etc that appeal to the hackday audience instead of any form of auxiliary entertainment.
2. There seems to be a slight gender imbalance at hackdays. I don't think lap dancers are going to help that.
Even if this is the local 'norm', Yahoo hackday is a global brand. When people see behaviour like this, it marks the whole tech community as either misogynistic or ladish.
I wonder how many people are genuinely outraged, and how many are outraged because it is the expected response.
I wonder how many people are bordering on asperger's levels of social ineptitude and insensitivity due to the fact that it's really easy to be insensitive when you're on top.
Insensitivity and oversensitivity can both be inappropriate. It's always safer to be oversensitive than insensitive, though. Wouldn't you agree that becomes a problem when it masks how people actually feel about a subject?
Side note: I move to officially recognize mentions of Asperger's when discussing social situations as HN's custom version of Godwin's law.
Side note: I move to officially recognize mentions of Asperger's when discussing social situations as HN's custom version of Godwin's law.
Wouldn't you agree that becomes a problem when it masks how people actually feel about a subject?
No -- I think the fact that it's considered culturally inappropriate to express clearly racist and sexist opinions is a benefit -- it's the first step to stemming the spread of that cultural virus.
Side note: I move to officially recognize mentions of Asperger's when discussing social situations as HN's custom version of Godwin's law.
It was an intentional reference to an endemic lack of social graces in technology culture and the oft-referenced syndrome. It was not an ad hominem argument.
No -- I think the fact that it's considered culturally inappropriate to express clearly racist and sexist opinions is a benefit -- it's the first step to stemming the spread of that cultural virus.
Side note: I move to officially recognize mentions of Asperger's when discussing social situations as HN's custom version of Godwin's law.
It was an intentional reference to an endemic lack of social graces in technology culture and the oft-referenced syndrome. It was not an ad hominem argument.
No -- I think the fact that it's considered culturally inappropriate to express clearly racist and sexist opinions is a benefit -- it's the first step to stemming the spread of that cultural virus.
I disagree - and I think the fact that my first, intentionally ambiguous, comment was modded down (by some) is a hint why. I had the temerity to as much as HINT that some people are not honestly outraged by this, and was immediately shot down.
The problem is not with expressing clearly racist or sexist opinions - the problem is that any such subject automatically becomes a minefield, and anyone except the clueless (or the bored) will automatically either adopt a "how COULD they" attitude, or keep silent. There is no discussion, no explanation of why it is wrong (even if it should be self-evident), just something bordering on a witch hunt.
Now, say someone with a sexist view walks into the conversation. Having an IQ higher than, say, a garden gnome, they immediately pick up on the "right" thing to say, and join in the chorus - possibly even becoming the loudest voice. Have they actually learned anything or been convinced of anything, other than how to act?
I'm just generally not a big believer in taboos. I feel that talking about problems - HONESTLY talking about problems - is better than pretending they don't exist.
Edit: and now you got modded down. See, this is what I mean - it's such a polarized topic, it makes it almost impossible to have a normal conversation.
I disagree - and I think the fact that my first, intentionally ambiguous, comment was modded down (by some) is a hint why. I had the temerity to as much as HINT that some people are not honestly outraged by this, and was immediately shot down.
The problem is not with expressing clearly racist or sexist opinions - the problem is that any such subject automatically becomes a minefield, and anyone except the clueless (or the bored) will automatically either adopt a "how COULD they" attitude, or keep silent. There is no discussion, no explanation of why it is wrong (even if it should be self-evident), just something bordering on a witch hunt.
Now, say someone with a sexist view walks into the conversation. Having an IQ higher than, say, a garden gnome, they immediately pick up on the "right" thing to say, and join in the chorus - possibly even becoming the loudest voice. Have they actually learned anything or been convinced of anything, other than how to act?
I'm just generally not a big believer in taboos. I feel that talking about problems - HONESTLY talking about problems - is better than pretending they don't exist.
Edit: and now you got modded down. See, this is what I mean - it's such a polarized topic, it makes it almost impossible to have a normal conversation.
I was surprised in other parts of Asia, how common a practice it is to engage 'race girl' PR staff for the most civic of events.
For an open source promotion we had in Thailand I interviewed several stunning PR girls [tough job but someone has to do it].. Fortunately among these air hostesses and models to be were some students with genuine interests beyond makeup and fame.
The impeccably dressed PR beauties we chose, did a fantastic job of translating the message of free software 'as in beer and freedom'. We gave demos and handed out 12 thousand promo folders with Gimp and Blender on CD over 4 days. Exhausting but fun.
For an open source promotion we had in Thailand I interviewed several stunning PR girls [tough job but someone has to do it].. Fortunately among these air hostesses and models to be were some students with genuine interests beyond makeup and fame.
The impeccably dressed PR beauties we chose, did a fantastic job of translating the message of free software 'as in beer and freedom'. We gave demos and handed out 12 thousand promo folders with Gimp and Blender on CD over 4 days. Exhausting but fun.
Not in China. You are not getting a lap-dance in public from a Chinese woman.
Thought experiment: early stage startup A, which consists of 3 males throws a private launch party at which there are female strippers. It's unprofessional, but at this point it doesn't matter because it's just a group of friends who happen to be running a company. Startup B, consisting of three females, same situation with male strippers.
Later A and B merge and, to celebrate, throw an event called Hackers and Strippers, which is open to the general (adult) hacking population and features male and female strippers and a guitar shower room. Hard to imagine any hacking gets done, but a good time is had by all. The actual logistics of such an event, and whether or not it would offend their customer bases, are left as an exercise to the reader.
AB grows to become the 3000 employee AB Corp. When they IPO they throw Hackers and Strippers Worldwide. Same kind of party on a larger scale. Unprofessional? You betcha.
Independent of sexism, at what point does unprofessionalism become a problem?
Later A and B merge and, to celebrate, throw an event called Hackers and Strippers, which is open to the general (adult) hacking population and features male and female strippers and a guitar shower room. Hard to imagine any hacking gets done, but a good time is had by all. The actual logistics of such an event, and whether or not it would offend their customer bases, are left as an exercise to the reader.
AB grows to become the 3000 employee AB Corp. When they IPO they throw Hackers and Strippers Worldwide. Same kind of party on a larger scale. Unprofessional? You betcha.
Independent of sexism, at what point does unprofessionalism become a problem?
I read this twice and I'm still confused as to what this has to do with the OT?
Part of the argument is that this is sexist. Part is that it's unprofessional. If there were also male strippers the event would no longer be sexist, only unprofessional. Would it still deserve moral outrage? Would it still be counter-productive?
I'm just exploring permutations here. I think half-naked dancing girls would make it hard to get any hacking done. But that doesn't necessarily make it a bad event (aside from sexism). A bad event to hack at, maybe.
I'm just exploring permutations here. I think half-naked dancing girls would make it hard to get any hacking done. But that doesn't necessarily make it a bad event (aside from sexism). A bad event to hack at, maybe.
I'm still trying to figure out where the guitar shower room comes in >.>?
(This thread is the first google result for "guitar shower room.")
(This thread is the first google result for "guitar shower room.")
Hah. I tried to google it, too.
Maybe it's an xkcd reference?
http://xkcd.com/305/ www.wetriffs.com
Maybe it's an xkcd reference?
http://xkcd.com/305/ www.wetriffs.com
XKCD is sexist!!! /s
> Independent of sexism, at what point does unprofessionalism become a problem?
At the point where it affects productivity.
At the point where it affects productivity.
For shame, for shame - forget where it's held, this kind of action reflects on the industry as a whole.
Couldn't agree with this article more. The lack of female talent in this industry is a real shame, and excludes a perspective that could be extremely helpful.
Couldn't agree with this article more. The lack of female talent in this industry is a real shame, and excludes a perspective that could be extremely helpful.
Are you white knighting disinterested females, or denouncing tech conferences that employ half naked women to make it more enjoyable?
I feel like people are missing the point.
You shouldn't be pissed about this because it'll hurt women's feelings. You should be pissed because it makes developers look sad and pathetic and overly horny. I'd be appalled to see that in any kind of professional/academic setting.
WRT Women, I think the white knight stuff is hurting more than helping. They don't need our protection from the perils of sexism, they just need us not to be sexist and to know that they can handle it all by themselves.
You shouldn't be pissed about this because it'll hurt women's feelings. You should be pissed because it makes developers look sad and pathetic and overly horny. I'd be appalled to see that in any kind of professional/academic setting.
WRT Women, I think the white knight stuff is hurting more than helping. They don't need our protection from the perils of sexism, they just need us not to be sexist and to know that they can handle it all by themselves.
it makes developers look sad and pathetic and overly horny
Not commenting on whether it's right or wrong, but erm, really? Do racing drivers evoke those impressions? Because they sort of have the same thing at car races.
Not commenting on whether it's right or wrong, but erm, really? Do racing drivers evoke those impressions? Because they sort of have the same thing at car races.
There isn't a preexisting stereotype of racing drivers being sad, pathetic, overly horny. Public tends to look for perception reinforcers. This is one example
> WRT Women, I think the white knight stuff is hurting more than helping. They don't need our protection from the perils of sexism, they just need us not to be sexist and to know that they can handle it all by themselves.
This can't be repeated often enough. All the 'white knight' grandstanding is much more appalling and offensive any of the 'sexism' I have seen anywhere in the IT industry.
This can't be repeated often enough. All the 'white knight' grandstanding is much more appalling and offensive any of the 'sexism' I have seen anywhere in the IT industry.
I find it weird that some tech guys, unlike nearly all normal men, get really upset when fine women are in the picture. Would you rather the following image continue to be the image of Hack Day and all other tech events?
http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Funny/nyc_linux_users.jpg
I'm personally embarrassed by the presence of "fine women" if they've been paid just to show up - it makes tech guys look like the only time they get to talk to a woman is if she's being compensated for it.
[deleted]
I think that underscores an insecurity about your ability to interact with attractive women. Strippers, exotic dancers, and eye candy in general have and will remain a big part of male-only events. You can whine that there should be more females and that is fine. If there were, and they cared, they would voice out against it. This is not uncommon.
As opposed to the blatantly sexist, misogynistic viewpoint represented by the other pictures?
Yes, absolutely and unequivocally.
I do see your point, and the tech community could learn a little about marketing themselves, but it doesn't excuse the garbage that is in the article.
Yes, absolutely and unequivocally.
I do see your point, and the tech community could learn a little about marketing themselves, but it doesn't excuse the garbage that is in the article.
> As opposed to the blatantly sexist, misogynistic viewpoint represented by the other pictures?
Uhu? What pictures are you talking about that represent "blatantly sexist [and] misogynistic viewpoint"? Because I have yet to see any.
Uhu? What pictures are you talking about that represent "blatantly sexist [and] misogynistic viewpoint"? Because I have yet to see any.
You are so dead; geek feminists have probably already ordered an air strike on your location.
1. You can't say "fine women" in a professional context.
2. Those women are dressed like strippers, which also isn't remotely professional (in the US at least).
1. You can't say "fine women" in a professional context.
2. Those women are dressed like strippers, which also isn't remotely professional (in the US at least).
Like my point above, if Hack Day had even a 15% female attendance this would likely have not been the entertainment.
I enjoy "fine women". Even at strip clubs. This wasn't a strip club.
When the "fine women" present at a technology event are paid to attend (and gyrate), we alienate intelligent, fine women (for all values of 'fine') who might actually want to be there.
When the "fine women" present at a technology event are paid to attend (and gyrate), we alienate intelligent, fine women (for all values of 'fine') who might actually want to be there.
Note to others who may make this mistake: tech men seem to dislike calling women fine.
When I got my certificate in geographic information systems (GIS), it was an 8 week long intensive program where I spent 36 to 40 hours a week in class and up to 20 more studying. GIS is a 2/3s male field and my classes were all about 2/3s male. The last week of school, it dawned on me that the majority of women in my classes occupied the last two rows of seats. There were a few women who sat various places. I was the only woman who consistently sat in the front row. I also was one of only a few women to attend the graduation party. The few other women left by about midnight. I stayed until about 4am. I was one of the last people to leave. I've had people (usually women) make horrified remarks about what a terrible (ie "immoral" -- good girls don't stay at parties surrounded by male colleagues until 4am) and dangerous thing it was I did to attend the graduation party.
I really have no way of knowing what lap-dancers at a hacking event might have to do with sexism and discouraging the participation of women. But it's clear to me that there are still very real social barriers to the full inclusion of women in technical fields.
I really have no way of knowing what lap-dancers at a hacking event might have to do with sexism and discouraging the participation of women. But it's clear to me that there are still very real social barriers to the full inclusion of women in technical fields.
Some of the disturbing arguments here demonstrate just how far we have to go before women are celebrated as equals in technology.
Here's one techtalk I found to be quite enlightening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmROmy5jT80
Google TechTalks - Dr. Cornelia Brunner Associate Director, Center for Children & Technology Education Development
Anyone have others they would recommend?
Here's one techtalk I found to be quite enlightening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmROmy5jT80
Google TechTalks - Dr. Cornelia Brunner Associate Director, Center for Children & Technology Education Development
Anyone have others they would recommend?
Technology is possibly one of the most meritocratic fields that there are. Programmers and scientists respect results, and generally are poor with the surrounding social issues. I've never heard anyone say "oh, yeah, that paper, too bad it's authored by a woman." or "I'd love to accept this patch, but I'm not gonna bother looking, a girl wrote it." I've won (well, second place, actually) a programming competition with a female partner.
I won't deny that there are few women around here. I think there were 14ish in my program? But the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls.
I won't deny that there are few women around here. I think there were 14ish in my program? But the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls.
> I've never heard anyone say "oh, yeah, that paper, too bad it's authored by a woman."
I have, if you substitute "book" for "paper".
Now that we've traded anecdotes, where does that leave the discussion?
> ... the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls.
What special rule do you have in mind? I would feel uncomfortable with partially-unclothed dancers of any gender at a Bar Camp or hack day regardless of cultural norms. I suspect I'm not the only person who would feel that way, and I'm very comfortable suggesting that conference organizers should avoid hiring said dancers.
I have, if you substitute "book" for "paper".
Now that we've traded anecdotes, where does that leave the discussion?
> ... the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls.
What special rule do you have in mind? I would feel uncomfortable with partially-unclothed dancers of any gender at a Bar Camp or hack day regardless of cultural norms. I suspect I'm not the only person who would feel that way, and I'm very comfortable suggesting that conference organizers should avoid hiring said dancers.
I won't deny that there are few women around here. I think there were 14ish in my program? But the problem won't be solved if you run around trying to make special rules for the girls.
"Don't hire strippers. No lap dances." aren't special rules for the girls.
Technology is possibly one of the most meritocratic fields that there are.
Yes, clearly there are no social issues and sexism in technology, which is why we get blog posts about it from women who take issue with blatant examples of sexism in technology.
Sarcasm aside, I can't recommend the above video highly enough.
"Don't hire strippers. No lap dances." aren't special rules for the girls.
Technology is possibly one of the most meritocratic fields that there are.
Yes, clearly there are no social issues and sexism in technology, which is why we get blog posts about it from women who take issue with blatant examples of sexism in technology.
Sarcasm aside, I can't recommend the above video highly enough.
Do you seriously think the fewer number of women in IT is because of strippers and lap dancers? Even though this is the first IT event I heard of that includes lap dancers. But I guess all these years women were fearing this day that there might be strippers at an event with computer nerds, at the other end of the world nevertheless, so they chose to study history of arts instead.
No, I think that the lack of women in IT is partially due to an endemic lack of social inclusion, amply demonstrated by hiring strippers to give lap dances at a technology conference.
Most tech people never even have a chance to practice social inclusion with tech aspiring females. I think the problem starts before that (if it is a problem - just like the missing male nurses).
> "Don't hire strippers. No lap dances." aren't special rules for the girls.
The way that you're presenting it is, however. "Don't hire strippers because it makes the girls feel uncomfortable." is the subtext here.
The way that you're presenting it is, however. "Don't hire strippers because it makes the girls feel uncomfortable." is the subtext here.
The way that you're presenting it is, however. "Don't hire strippers because it makes the girls feel uncomfortable." is the subtext here.
So? You're saying male strippers wouldn't make the men feel uncomfortable?
So? You're saying male strippers wouldn't make the men feel uncomfortable?
It may, it may not. Cultures are totally different.
For instance, I was watching some Torchwood last night. The amount of sex and actual nudity suprised me, because I forgot that other places don't have hangups about such things. The culture is different, rear male nudity is completely normal on the BBC at 9pm, apparently. And that's fine. Their hometown, they get to make the rules.
Presenting hypothetical questions about male strippers is a non-sequitor. What we're discussing is the appropriateness of some girls in slutty clothing at an event. Which is apparently par for the course in that part of the world, so, whatever.
I would argue that hiring strippers in any capacity here in America would be a poor idea, because _everyone_ would feel uncomfortable.
For instance, I was watching some Torchwood last night. The amount of sex and actual nudity suprised me, because I forgot that other places don't have hangups about such things. The culture is different, rear male nudity is completely normal on the BBC at 9pm, apparently. And that's fine. Their hometown, they get to make the rules.
Presenting hypothetical questions about male strippers is a non-sequitor. What we're discussing is the appropriateness of some girls in slutty clothing at an event. Which is apparently par for the course in that part of the world, so, whatever.
I would argue that hiring strippers in any capacity here in America would be a poor idea, because _everyone_ would feel uncomfortable.
Ridiculous cultural relativism can be applied to almost any transgression.
If you don't like naked males, don't watch Torchwood.
If you want to be part of the technology community, but feel uncomfortable with strippers and lap-dances, too bad?
If you don't like naked males, don't watch Torchwood.
If you want to be part of the technology community, but feel uncomfortable with strippers and lap-dances, too bad?
I have this feeling that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Good luck.
Good luck.
I have this feeling that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
That may be, but before you abandon the question, I suggest watching that Google Techtalk.
That may be, but before you abandon the question, I suggest watching that Google Techtalk.
[deleted]
So set up another Hack Day without Go Go Dancers and go there instead of the Go Go Dancer day?
Or somehow trademark the "Hack Day" label so that you can enforce a "no go go dancers" rule. I suppose atm anybody can call an event a "Hack Day", so there is no point in trying to enforce any particular style.
Or somehow trademark the "Hack Day" label so that you can enforce a "no go go dancers" rule. I suppose atm anybody can call an event a "Hack Day", so there is no point in trying to enforce any particular style.
Those pictures make me feel very uncomfortable.
[deleted](1)
- We're missing out on 50% of the people who could be good engineers. Programming is a really effective tool for improving our world, so any waste of talent is a Bad Thing.
- Whatever the moral arguments, accepting go-go dancers at events sucks as a way to attract women into our world.
Is shaming conference organizers the most important change we can make? Hell no, but it's low-hanging fruit. It gives us a zero-effort way to advertise that we as a community want more women here. If we can't even manage this, god knows how we'll make any real changes.
It's pretty depressing to read this thread, I thought there was a widespread consensus that the lack of women in computing was a problem. I'd be interested to know if any of the commenters defending the conference agree or disagree that it's important to get more women into our field?