What every computer programmer should know about floating point, part 1(blog.reverberate.org)
blog.reverberate.org
What every computer programmer should know about floating point, part 1
http://blog.reverberate.org/2014/09/what-every-computer-programmer-should.html
18 comments
"What every computer programmer should know about floating point, part 1.00001"
Technically that'd be part 1.000010000000000065512040237081237137317657470703125
No floating point article is complete with a reference to the Fast Inverse Square Root [1].
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
Home of my favorite line of functioning code in any shipping product:
i = 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 ); // what the fuck?
i = 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 ); // what the fuck?
Years ago there was a triangle problem on an ACM Scholastic Programming Contest. It looked simple. Given three lengths, output whether that forms a triangle or not and whether it's a right triangle or isosceles triangle. Simple right? A^2 + B^2 = C^2.
Most programmers that were naive about floating-point got burned. One item in the test data set (which they kept hidden and ran against your program and you only got a pass/fail result) would fail the simple equality case if you used a double-precision float but would pass if you used a single-precision. Lots of learning took place.
Most programmers that were naive about floating-point got burned. One item in the test data set (which they kept hidden and ran against your program and you only got a pass/fail result) would fail the simple equality case if you used a double-precision float but would pass if you used a single-precision. Lots of learning took place.
When doing tests for equality with fp you should always test against a difference and an epsilon. like this:
Even better if you convert your values to some non-floating point numbers. As they say, if you need floats you don't understand your problem (yet). Obviously that doesn't always apply but it applies more often than you might think at first.
// in C
if (fabs(v1 - v2) < epsilon) {
// equal
}
else {
// unequal
}
Even better if you convert your values to some non-floating point numbers. As they say, if you need floats you don't understand your problem (yet). Obviously that doesn't always apply but it applies more often than you might think at first.
> understand your problem domain
It sounds like the article's explanation of how precision erodes as the number increases would help a lot when thinking about this. A good epsilon is a function of the size of your numbers.
I've been writing a lot of money-related code lately in C with long doubles, so floating point has been on my mind, and this article is timed perfectly. According to my tests I can get past $36 billion before I see $0.000001 error, which I think is good enough for me, but I should revisit my reasoning now that I understand things better!
It sounds like the article's explanation of how precision erodes as the number increases would help a lot when thinking about this. A good epsilon is a function of the size of your numbers.
I've been writing a lot of money-related code lately in C with long doubles, so floating point has been on my mind, and this article is timed perfectly. According to my tests I can get past $36 billion before I see $0.000001 error, which I think is good enough for me, but I should revisit my reasoning now that I understand things better!
You may want to use a more intuitively behaving datatype for currency, even if just to avoid flame on certain community sites on the web. Consider an integer representing ten-thousandths of a penny, if guaranteed to stay in USD or GBP, or a dedicated currency library otherwise. Currency's just one of those things that makes some people very emotional when the notion of any kind of error or rounding is mentioned.
I'm not very experienced in representing money in computer programs, but I thought the best practice was to store all values as integers (using either cents or smaller as your unit).
Any reason you chose to use doubles instead of integers or longs?
Any reason you chose to use doubles instead of integers or longs?
The best way to represent money is as fixed point integers. 64.64 would be a good start, you can adjust that up/down with more knowledge about your application.
If you do accounting instead of games, floating point is NOT your friend. (some game devs might argue that floating point is not your friend there, either, if your "universe" has a convenient "quanta" and scale/size)
Use fixed precision / "binary coded decimal" instead.
http://roboprogs.com/devel/2010.02.html
Use fixed precision / "binary coded decimal" instead.
http://roboprogs.com/devel/2010.02.html
Binary coded decimal is horrible. It blows away a lot of useful representations, and you don't really gain anything. It also doesn't actually have a direct any relationship with fractional amounts. Fixed precision can be used with any denominator while keeping a binary representation.
BCD is slow. But it's trivial to make the number any size you want. If I have a library that "glues together" multiple 32 bit or 64 bit integers, great, but if what I get works with 4 bit chunks, oh well.
Yeah, BCD would suck for a game, but for a biz app, most of your time is going to be spent churning in and out *ML text (or JSON, or CSV, ...) anyway.
Yeah, BCD would suck for a game, but for a biz app, most of your time is going to be spent churning in and out *ML text (or JSON, or CSV, ...) anyway.
I've been in this game for a long time. BCD was a scheme to avoid the cost of binary-to-decimal conversion at display time, when processing was much more expensive than it is now. Obviously using binary storage of integers, you now can get the same display of integer values that you could then, but you have to convert from binary to decimal on the fly. The change is that the conversion is much easier and faster than it was then.
That means the storage differential of 100/256, i.e. the loss of bit real estate, is the reason BCD isn't used any more.
That means the storage differential of 100/256, i.e. the loss of bit real estate, is the reason BCD isn't used any more.
"That means the storage differential of 100/256"
In terms of "number of representable values", it's 100/256 to the power of the number of bytes in packed BCD rather than binary. Alternatively, with BCD you're only using about 80% of your bits.
(Clarifying, more than disagreeing - up-voted).
In terms of "number of representable values", it's 100/256 to the power of the number of bytes in packed BCD rather than binary. Alternatively, with BCD you're only using about 80% of your bits.
(Clarifying, more than disagreeing - up-voted).
But what does BCD buy you, in this situation? There is nothing you can do with a BCD integer that you can't do with a binary integer in just a couple more operations, and more common operations take more work. Meanwhile, as I said (and I don't think you disputed), you can do fixed point without BCD. You're burning representation to only make things harder on you - that's a poor trade-off.
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How often do programmers deal with floating point?
I deal with business math, which while there are positions to the right of the decimal point we have very well defined numbers and such.
What languages other than javascript have issues such as described in this article?
I deal with business math, which while there are positions to the right of the decimal point we have very well defined numbers and such.
What languages other than javascript have issues such as described in this article?
I'm a game programmer so I end up dealing with lots of floating point numbers no matter what language I'm working in because physics and graphics engines just love their floats. C#, C++ and Typescript are my most frequent languages but I would expect to encounter these same issues whatever language I'm working in.
I did some pretty cool work on a fixed point physics engine once - using integers to represent individual millimeters, so the game field was limited to a mere 4294.97Km! But the graphics engine was still all floats, there's no escape :'(
I did some pretty cool work on a fixed point physics engine once - using integers to represent individual millimeters, so the game field was limited to a mere 4294.97Km! But the graphics engine was still all floats, there's no escape :'(
When using C++ in games you often find that you want results to be deterministic so it is same for all players across all hardware.
This video may also supplement the knowledge about floating point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTSvthW34GU
Using arrows in both directions on your diagrams is very confusing. Only keep the right ones. Good write-up by the way.
this needs to be taught in 1st year of any comp sci class
I've worked for a few months on this article as I've learned more about floating point. I hope this helps others gain the same understanding. Please let me know of any errors!
It's a brilliant article. Reminds me how much I've forgotten since I last manipulated floats and doubles by hand back in architecture class and wrote assembler routines.
Thanks for writing it!
Thanks for writing it!
The content is good but the title is bad.
Yeah you need to include information about IEEE 754 extended precision formats, 80bits on x86.
Title seems like a blatant rip-off of the classic article.
Hmm, it certainly wasn't my intent to be a rip-off.
The "What every computer programmer should know about X" seems to be a somewhat established genre, sort of like "X considered harmful":
What Every Programmer Should Know About Memory: http://www.akkadia.org/drepper/cpumemory.pdf
The Absolute Minimum Every Software Developer Absolutely, Positively Must Know About Unicode and Character Sets (No Excuses!): http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html
Latency Numbers Every Programmer Should Know: https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832
While it's true that an article about floating-point already exists, it does seem more aimed at Computer Scientists than Computer Programmers (as the difference in title would indicate). And I link to the existing article in the second paragraph and explain the distinction.
But if it's confusing or seen as disrespectful to the original work, I will consider changing the title.
The "What every computer programmer should know about X" seems to be a somewhat established genre, sort of like "X considered harmful":
What Every Programmer Should Know About Memory: http://www.akkadia.org/drepper/cpumemory.pdf
The Absolute Minimum Every Software Developer Absolutely, Positively Must Know About Unicode and Character Sets (No Excuses!): http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html
Latency Numbers Every Programmer Should Know: https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832
While it's true that an article about floating-point already exists, it does seem more aimed at Computer Scientists than Computer Programmers (as the difference in title would indicate). And I link to the existing article in the second paragraph and explain the distinction.
But if it's confusing or seen as disrespectful to the original work, I will consider changing the title.
Please consider changing the title, however subtly. I didn't even realize this was new content, so I didn't click the link.
I reference the original pretty frequently (it's a standard answer component for floating point-related questions on Stack Overflow), and thought this was confusing as an addition/alternative to that.
I'm sure (still haven't read it!) it's very good with a new article aimed more for programmers, just consider making it somehow more clear that it's a different work. Thanks.
I reference the original pretty frequently (it's a standard answer component for floating point-related questions on Stack Overflow), and thought this was confusing as an addition/alternative to that.
I'm sure (still haven't read it!) it's very good with a new article aimed more for programmers, just consider making it somehow more clear that it's a different work. Thanks.
Well, here's my 5 year old attempt to do exactly the same thing: http://floating-point-gui.de
I prefer your version by far over the overly verbose and overly simple new haberman guide.
Knuth and Goldberg made fantastic and precise overviews, and there is a need to terse it down for programmers, but not too much, down to ground school level.
there's a colon missing in your URL and its not clickable.
I don't think you need to change the title. It seems obviously an homage to the original, and your second paragraph makes clear why you picked it.
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Great job Josh. I wrote a version of this too[0], but yours is much much better and in depth. I enjoyed it a lot more too :)
[0]http://blog.chewxy.com/2014/02/24/what-every-javascript-deve...
[0]http://blog.chewxy.com/2014/02/24/what-every-javascript-deve...
Thanks! I will have to read yours too and see if it will cover things I don't yet understand.
The more you learn about floats the more you realize you don't know. God damn floats are ever surprisingly fickle bastards.
Bruce Dawson has at least 12 posts on floats. There are quite a few more after this series as well. http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/comparing-floati...
Bruce Dawson has at least 12 posts on floats. There are quite a few more after this series as well. http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/comparing-floati...
The goal of my article is to make them seem a little less fickle and mysterious. I'm trying to focus on what can be understood, and not the parts that defy easy understanding. :)
My current favorite float fact is that taking a valid integer and casting it to a float and back to int can cause an integer overflow. Alternatively the final value could be either less than or greater than the original!
Floats are dumb. I use them every day but they're dumb and I hate them! <grumble>
Floats are dumb. I use them every day but they're dumb and I hate them! <grumble>
They might seem dumb, but on closer look IEEE754 (which is what you probably mean when you say float) is a pretty clever piece of engineering.
Here's a great bit of info, interviewing professor Kahan (one of the principals behind it) http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ieee754status/754story.ht...
Believe me, they might be painful, but they're definitely one of the least painful ways to handle non-integer values.
Here's a great bit of info, interviewing professor Kahan (one of the principals behind it) http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ieee754status/754story.ht...
Believe me, they might be painful, but they're definitely one of the least painful ways to handle non-integer values.
Without trying or thinking people just don't expect the effects which have sense once you know what is actually going on:
void p( int i ) {
float f = i;
int i2 = f;
printf( "%d\n%f\n%d\n\n", i, f, i2 );
}
int main() {
p( 0x7fffffbf );
p( 0x7fffffc0 );
}
/*
prints
2147483583
2147483520.000000
2147483520
2147483584
2147483648.000000
-2147483648
*/
The round-tripping behavior is certainly cool, but my favorite float-fact is still this one:
double pi = 3.14159265358979323846; printf("pi = %.33f\n + %.33f\n", pi, sin(pi));
sin(double(pi)) is equal to the error in the double(pi) constant. If you manually add the two you can easily get pi to about 34 digits. Useless, but cool. I discuss this in more detail here: http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/comparing-floati...
double pi = 3.14159265358979323846; printf("pi = %.33f\n + %.33f\n", pi, sin(pi));
sin(double(pi)) is equal to the error in the double(pi) constant. If you manually add the two you can easily get pi to about 34 digits. Useless, but cool. I discuss this in more detail here: http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/comparing-floati...
if I didn't encounter it personally it can't possibly be my favorite
Come up with something that can represent every number then? IEEE754 may be a pain in the ass, but dumb is not a word I'd use to describe it
The problem is, I guess, that people assume that floating-point numbers represent real numbers and behave like those. But while they're an often useful approximation, they are governed by very different laws. The same holds for integers in computers (except bigints), but the only place where they bite you is overflow and not by unexpected behaviour over the whole range of numbers.
Here is a fun little anecdote you may consider incorporating into part 2:
The default Excel number format (known as General) draws numbers with up to 11 characters, granular enough to mask the ulps in common numbers like 0.1+0.2. Excel also supports fraction number formats. The format "?/?" writes the closest fraction whose denominator is less than 10.
The algorithm used to calculate the fraction seems to agree with the Oliver Aberth paper "A method for exact computation with rational numbers". Based on this algorithm, 0.3 is represented as "2/7" and any number slightly larger than 0.3 is represented as "1/3".
Try setting A1 to 0.3, A2 to =0.1+0.2 and change the cell format to Fraction .. Up to one digit. Both cells appear to be 0.3 when rendered under the General format. However, when using the fraction, the cells differ.
Google Docs renders both numbers as 2/7, but the XLSX export correctly preserves the IEEE754 numbers. Unfortunately, LibreOffice clobbers the last few bits, leading to incorrect results.
The default Excel number format (known as General) draws numbers with up to 11 characters, granular enough to mask the ulps in common numbers like 0.1+0.2. Excel also supports fraction number formats. The format "?/?" writes the closest fraction whose denominator is less than 10.
The algorithm used to calculate the fraction seems to agree with the Oliver Aberth paper "A method for exact computation with rational numbers". Based on this algorithm, 0.3 is represented as "2/7" and any number slightly larger than 0.3 is represented as "1/3".
Try setting A1 to 0.3, A2 to =0.1+0.2 and change the cell format to Fraction .. Up to one digit. Both cells appear to be 0.3 when rendered under the General format. However, when using the fraction, the cells differ.
Google Docs renders both numbers as 2/7, but the XLSX export correctly preserves the IEEE754 numbers. Unfortunately, LibreOffice clobbers the last few bits, leading to incorrect results.
Fun fact: to find the fraction closest to a number with a denominator that doesn't exceed a certain amount can be generated using the following algorithm:
(1) Find the N/1 rationals corresponding to the closest integers on either side of the number.
(2) For rationals a/b and c/d, calculate (a + c) / (b + d). This is not a common operation, but you read it right. It'll be between a/b and c/d, and be the number with the smallest denominator between them.
(3) Reduce the range to the segment from above containing your number. If the new denominator exceeds your limit, choose the smaller-denominator value. Otherwise, go back to step (2).
[There are some delightful proofs of this using tessellation that I strongly encourage you to try to figure out, one of the most interesting puzzles I got from a guy named Anton, the first user of MathOverflow and current Googler.]
(1) Find the N/1 rationals corresponding to the closest integers on either side of the number.
(2) For rationals a/b and c/d, calculate (a + c) / (b + d). This is not a common operation, but you read it right. It'll be between a/b and c/d, and be the number with the smallest denominator between them.
(3) Reduce the range to the segment from above containing your number. If the new denominator exceeds your limit, choose the smaller-denominator value. Otherwise, go back to step (2).
[There are some delightful proofs of this using tessellation that I strongly encourage you to try to figure out, one of the most interesting puzzles I got from a guy named Anton, the first user of MathOverflow and current Googler.]
That's commonly referred to as the Mediant algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediant_(mathematics) -- GDocs, LO and other programs use this algorithm when rendering.
Shameless plug: our JS fraction library https://github.com/SheetJS/frac implements the mediant as well as the Aberth algorithm.
Shameless plug: our JS fraction library https://github.com/SheetJS/frac implements the mediant as well as the Aberth algorithm.
Just a heads up--the mediant algorithm can be O(d) in the size of the denominator for fractions that are close to 0 or close to 1 (it's possible for the denominator to increase by only 1 at each step).
The Aberth algorithm (I hadn't heard it called that; nice to know) is much more efficient--it converges quadratically.
The Aberth algorithm (I hadn't heard it called that; nice to know) is much more efficient--it converges quadratically.
I did not know this! :) Thanks for sharing.
Another thing I heard, but have not been able to prove (and is not in the Wiki article), is that if you record whether you take the Left or Right segments in the algorithm, you can construct a continued fraction for any real number as int(N) + 1 / (1 (L -> -, R -> +) (number of times you took that direction before "turning around") / 1 (L -> -, R -> +) (#direction) ... ))).
My inability to prove may be primarily because I never really got the flavor of proofs about continued/infinite fractions -- considering the source I'd say it's likely true (or I misremembered).
You don't happen to know where I'd look for hints on the proof there, do you? :)
Another thing I heard, but have not been able to prove (and is not in the Wiki article), is that if you record whether you take the Left or Right segments in the algorithm, you can construct a continued fraction for any real number as int(N) + 1 / (1 (L -> -, R -> +) (number of times you took that direction before "turning around") / 1 (L -> -, R -> +) (#direction) ... ))).
My inability to prove may be primarily because I never really got the flavor of proofs about continued/infinite fractions -- considering the source I'd say it's likely true (or I misremembered).
You don't happen to know where I'd look for hints on the proof there, do you? :)
I'm sure it's hiding somewhere in Concrete Mathematics (knuth/graham/patashnik), and I'm sure there are more elegant proofs, but it's not too hard to work out this proof yourself. Here is a hint:
Suppose you were at a point in the mediant algorithm where the two terms were a/b and c/d. Taking the left segment transforms this to [a/b, (a+c)/(b+d)] and taking the right segment transforms this to [(a+c)/(b+d), c/d].
Represent this as a matrix of the form [[a,b],[c,d]]. In this form, what does "take the left segment" look like in terms of a matrix operation? what does "take the right segment" look like? Can you find any useful properties (for example, how do you repeat)
A convenient root matrix is [[0,1],[1,0]]
Suppose you were at a point in the mediant algorithm where the two terms were a/b and c/d. Taking the left segment transforms this to [a/b, (a+c)/(b+d)] and taking the right segment transforms this to [(a+c)/(b+d), c/d].
Represent this as a matrix of the form [[a,b],[c,d]]. In this form, what does "take the left segment" look like in terms of a matrix operation? what does "take the right segment" look like? Can you find any useful properties (for example, how do you repeat)
A convenient root matrix is [[0,1],[1,0]]
Yes, this is explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern–Brocot_tree
Such a beautiful circle of ideas!
Such a beautiful circle of ideas!
Ha, interesting. This will fit in perfectly with my plans to describe the printing of floating point numbers in detail.
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` As long as they are small enough, floating point numbers can represent integers exactly. `
Is this true? For example, if I want to do integer + floating point addition the CPU might dump the floating point into a 80bit register resulting in a form which does not play as expected with integers.
Is this true? For example, if I want to do integer + floating point addition the CPU might dump the floating point into a 80bit register resulting in a form which does not play as expected with integers.
The CPU doesn't make that decision, the compiler does. And AFAIK, GCC doesn't use the 80-bit 8087 floating point registers in 64-bit code (it sticks to the 64-bit SSE2 registers.) Even if 80-bit registers were used, they are still exponent+mantissa format, which represents small integers exactly.
I had no idea the Intel 8087 was so related to the IEEE standard until I saw your comment. I had to look it up. Very cool.
If your machine uses 80-bit floating point, then those extended-precision floats can exactly represent any 64-bit integer, provided that your language's standard library/runtime correctly converts without an intermediate step using 64-bit floats (53-bit mantissa).
Yes. You can see the compatibility between 80-bit floating points (long double in C) and 64-bit integer (long long int)
with a code like this:
long double x0,x1,y0,y1;
x0 = 18446744073709551615.0L; /* 2^64 - 1 */
x1 = 18446744073709551616.0L; /* 2^64 */
y0 = x0 + 1.0L;
y1 = x1 + 1.0L;
printf("%d\n", x0 == y0); /* false (with enough precision) */
printf("%d\n", x1 == y1); /* true (precision being lost ) */Sometimes called 'long double' by the compiler.
As long as the mantissa has at least 32 bits in it, then any 32 bit integer can make the round trip lossless-ly. That's true for 64 bit floats and for 80 bit floats.
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re: "As long as they are small enough, floating point numbers can represent integers exactly."
I recently discovered a wonderful floating point bug in the Apple A7 GPU (fragment shader). I would pass a float from the vertex shader to the fragment shader, that was either 0.0, 1.0 or 2.0 and use that as an index to mask color channels.
As such, I would convert to int and use it as an index. Problem was, the GPU would sometimes, on some random region of pixels, decide I didn't pass in 1.0, but 0.99999999999. Perform an int truncation, I have 0.0, I get the wrong index, my app starts flickering, I want to rip my hair out...
Even on desktop machines, I had similar problems with large sets of tests that would produce different results depending on which (modern desktop) processor they ran on.
Lesson: floating point is certainly dangerous for consistent representations that "matter". Regardless of a compiler decision or what the spec says.
I recently discovered a wonderful floating point bug in the Apple A7 GPU (fragment shader). I would pass a float from the vertex shader to the fragment shader, that was either 0.0, 1.0 or 2.0 and use that as an index to mask color channels.
As such, I would convert to int and use it as an index. Problem was, the GPU would sometimes, on some random region of pixels, decide I didn't pass in 1.0, but 0.99999999999. Perform an int truncation, I have 0.0, I get the wrong index, my app starts flickering, I want to rip my hair out...
Even on desktop machines, I had similar problems with large sets of tests that would produce different results depending on which (modern desktop) processor they ran on.
Lesson: floating point is certainly dangerous for consistent representations that "matter". Regardless of a compiler decision or what the spec says.
It's hard to understand how such an error could occur. Due to the nature of the floating point format, it seems very difficult for a bug to transform 1.0 into 0.999999.
Floating point 1.0 has a sign bit of 0, an exponent of 0 (after bias), and a significand of 1.0. It's hard to imagine a sequence of transformations that could somehow result in getting 0.999999999 after conversion.
I made a little "floating point binary explorer": http://ideone.com/61L4V6 (Apologies for the awful code quality; it's just a quick hack.) It prints each bit of a 32-bit float, which for 1.0 is "00111111 10000000 00000000 00000000".
The first bit is the sign bit, the next 8 bits are the exponent, and the remaining 23 bits are the significand. So, sign=0, exponent=127, significand=0. The significand is actually 24-bit, not 23, and the leading "hidden bit" is always 1 (nitpick: unless the floating point value is 0.0 or -0.0). That means the significand in this case isn't actually zero, but "1 followed by 23 zeroes," so it's 2^24.
The final value for a 32-bit float is:
For representing 2.0, everything is exactly the same, except the encoded exponent is 128 instead of 127. That comes out to (2^24 / 2^24) * 2^(128 - 127), or 1.0 * 2^1 which equals 2.0.
Shader programs often use half precision floats (16-bit total, with 1 bit for sign, 5 bits for exponent, and 10 for significand) but the concepts should be exactly the same. 1.0 and 2.0 should always be 1.0 * 2^0 and 1.0 * 2^1 respectively, regardless of whether we're using half/single/double precision.
I'm having trouble figuring out how your program wound up with 0.999999, even if there was a bug in the conversion. 32-bit floating point 0.999999 is "00111111 01111111 11111111 11101111" which is very different from the binary 1.0 float value: http://ideone.com/Qlqu4W It has an exponent of 126 and almost the highest possible significand, which comes out to 1.9999 * 2^(126 - 127) = 1.9999 * 2^-1 = 0.9999.
So in order for 1.0 to be erroneously transformed into 0.9999, the bug would need to invert all the bits of the significand, but subtract 1 from the exponent.
Is there anything in particular that I should watch out for on the A7 GPU? I was just hoping to hear about any details you may have left out for simplicity, or any other factors that could've triggered the bug.
> Even on desktop machines, I had similar problems with large sets of tests that would produce different results depending on which (modern desktop) processor they ran on.
> Lesson: floating point is certainly dangerous for consistent representations that "matter". Regardless of a compiler decision or what the spec says.
Are there floating point bugs on desktop processors? The only one I've heard of was the infamous Pentium FDIV bug http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug and the only reason that wasn't hotfixed to match the spec was because the logic was hardwired into the chip rather than implemented in microcode, making a patch impossible.
It seems like any deviation from the floating point standard in a modern desktop CPU would be noticed almost immediately, because there is a lot of code which relies on the exact IEEE floating point standard in order to function properly. There was recently a hash algorithm featured on HN which used floating point, and the only reason such an algorithm can be trusted is if every desktop processor properly adheres to the spec.
Floating point 1.0 has a sign bit of 0, an exponent of 0 (after bias), and a significand of 1.0. It's hard to imagine a sequence of transformations that could somehow result in getting 0.999999999 after conversion.
I made a little "floating point binary explorer": http://ideone.com/61L4V6 (Apologies for the awful code quality; it's just a quick hack.) It prints each bit of a 32-bit float, which for 1.0 is "00111111 10000000 00000000 00000000".
The first bit is the sign bit, the next 8 bits are the exponent, and the remaining 23 bits are the significand. So, sign=0, exponent=127, significand=0. The significand is actually 24-bit, not 23, and the leading "hidden bit" is always 1 (nitpick: unless the floating point value is 0.0 or -0.0). That means the significand in this case isn't actually zero, but "1 followed by 23 zeroes," so it's 2^24.
The final value for a 32-bit float is:
(significand / 2^24) * 2^(exponent - 127)
For representing 2.0, everything is exactly the same, except the encoded exponent is 128 instead of 127. That comes out to (2^24 / 2^24) * 2^(128 - 127), or 1.0 * 2^1 which equals 2.0.
Shader programs often use half precision floats (16-bit total, with 1 bit for sign, 5 bits for exponent, and 10 for significand) but the concepts should be exactly the same. 1.0 and 2.0 should always be 1.0 * 2^0 and 1.0 * 2^1 respectively, regardless of whether we're using half/single/double precision.
I'm having trouble figuring out how your program wound up with 0.999999, even if there was a bug in the conversion. 32-bit floating point 0.999999 is "00111111 01111111 11111111 11101111" which is very different from the binary 1.0 float value: http://ideone.com/Qlqu4W It has an exponent of 126 and almost the highest possible significand, which comes out to 1.9999 * 2^(126 - 127) = 1.9999 * 2^-1 = 0.9999.
So in order for 1.0 to be erroneously transformed into 0.9999, the bug would need to invert all the bits of the significand, but subtract 1 from the exponent.
Is there anything in particular that I should watch out for on the A7 GPU? I was just hoping to hear about any details you may have left out for simplicity, or any other factors that could've triggered the bug.
> Even on desktop machines, I had similar problems with large sets of tests that would produce different results depending on which (modern desktop) processor they ran on.
> Lesson: floating point is certainly dangerous for consistent representations that "matter". Regardless of a compiler decision or what the spec says.
Are there floating point bugs on desktop processors? The only one I've heard of was the infamous Pentium FDIV bug http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug and the only reason that wasn't hotfixed to match the spec was because the logic was hardwired into the chip rather than implemented in microcode, making a patch impossible.
It seems like any deviation from the floating point standard in a modern desktop CPU would be noticed almost immediately, because there is a lot of code which relies on the exact IEEE floating point standard in order to function properly. There was recently a hash algorithm featured on HN which used floating point, and the only reason such an algorithm can be trusted is if every desktop processor properly adheres to the spec.
It is actually more likely the rasterizer interpolated between values before running the fragment shader.
This could be caused by the input mesh having an unexpected topology or some odd form of multisampling.
re shader: I passed 1.0 from the vertex shader to the fragment shader. It didn't always occur, but occurred frequently on enough geometry to make a considerable flicker when shifting the geometries position.
When I checked the values when outputting them as color, there was no difference from one pixel to the next (suggesting a minor variation). When I floored/truncated the value in the fragment shader, and outputted the result as either red or green (0.0 is red, and 1.0 is green). The result was blocked stripes of red surrounded by green.
Prior to doing this, I had changed the precession of float to highp and made sure the vertex shader was passing in 1.0.
re desktop processor: I can't remember the generation of processor, but it was likely designed in 2008-2009. For some background, we used to generate a large set of tests and results that we could test against our framework. Some of those tests required results computed using trig functions. The results of those trig functions would be slightly (but very noticeably) off the results we were expecting (ie, run on any other machine we had).
I'd love to think floating point is always reliable, and in most cases, it's accurate enough. But sometimes, it becomes a problem and the hardware isn't as reliable as we'd like. FiftyThree had a very similar issue when they were implementing their smug tool: http://making.fiftythree.com/the-precision-behind-blend/
When I checked the values when outputting them as color, there was no difference from one pixel to the next (suggesting a minor variation). When I floored/truncated the value in the fragment shader, and outputted the result as either red or green (0.0 is red, and 1.0 is green). The result was blocked stripes of red surrounded by green.
Prior to doing this, I had changed the precession of float to highp and made sure the vertex shader was passing in 1.0.
re desktop processor: I can't remember the generation of processor, but it was likely designed in 2008-2009. For some background, we used to generate a large set of tests and results that we could test against our framework. Some of those tests required results computed using trig functions. The results of those trig functions would be slightly (but very noticeably) off the results we were expecting (ie, run on any other machine we had).
I'd love to think floating point is always reliable, and in most cases, it's accurate enough. But sometimes, it becomes a problem and the hardware isn't as reliable as we'd like. FiftyThree had a very similar issue when they were implementing their smug tool: http://making.fiftythree.com/the-precision-behind-blend/
I also suspect the 0.9999.. was an actual number in the commenter's inputs to the fragment shader. Unless he checked the binary representation of the numbers in question (in the input) he could have missed what's actually going on. Formatting and printing the number in base 10 hides the only real thing, which is the actual bits that represent the number.
It's not rare for GPUs to be pushed so close to the boundaries of what the underlying hardware can do that you'll see little bits of noise like this.
For 'consumer' stuff this usually does not matter, but I think it is one of the reasons (besides revenues) that Nvidia has a 'compute' line and a 'display' line. Even if they're based on the exact same tech it would not surprise me one bit if the safety margins were eroded considerably on the consumer stuff and if it wasn't tested as good before shipping (on the chip level).
For 'consumer' stuff this usually does not matter, but I think it is one of the reasons (besides revenues) that Nvidia has a 'compute' line and a 'display' line. Even if they're based on the exact same tech it would not surprise me one bit if the safety margins were eroded considerably on the consumer stuff and if it wasn't tested as good before shipping (on the chip level).
ATI would probably be a better example. Nvidia has historically been more precise and has implemented specs pretty faithfully. ATI has of course become AMD, and the reputation of modern AMD graphics cards among developers seems to be pretty great.
It would surprise me if sending the value 1.0 from a vertex program to fragment program ever resulted in anything except 1.0 on a desktop GPU. It's not unusual to truncate a float in a fragment program and the use the resulting integer as an index. I think Nvidia has a fairly rigorous battery of tests which they use to ensure compliance with specs. The tests check to make sure that values are being interpolated correctly, to check for off-by-one errors at the edges of triangles, and other such corner cases. The tests are automated, because once you implement a graphics spec correctly, you can generate an output image which should be the same every time it's generated. That way, if an error creeps into the driver, it should be caught pretty quickly, since it will cause a deviation in the rendered output examined by the test suite.
I'm not sure how often a problem occurs in an Nvidia consumer card but not their 'compute' line. Nvidia tries to use the same driver codebase across as many of their products as possible.
Here's an interesting thread where someone points out that certain OpenCL code was giving the correct result on x86 and Nvidia cards, but not AMD cards: http://devgurus.amd.com/thread/145582
In that thread, it's suggested that the reason Nvidia gave the correct result was because their CUDA compute specs had better error margins compared to OpenCL specs. So in that case, it would appear that Nvidia's compute line actually enhanced their accuracy in other contexts such as OpenCL. Rather than implement a different driver for OpenCL, CUDA, and consumer graphics, it seems that Nvidia uses the same driver to power all three, which seems to enhance accuracy rather than hinder it.
While writing up this comment and researching this, I stumbled across this interesting paper from 2011 that details exactly what programmers can expect when programming to an Nvidia GPU (in this case using CUDA): https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/akamai/cuda... ... It's a pretty fun read which helps to solidify the impression that Nvidia cares deeply about providing accurate floating point results.
I also came across this article which was too awesome not to mention: http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/floating-point-d... ... It's not really related to GPU floating point, but it's an excellent exploration of floating point determinism and the effect of various floating point settings.
For mobile graphics stacks like those in cellphones / iPads etc, I share your skepticism. I'm not sure how rigorously tested mobile GPUs are, or how faithfully those stacks adhere to specs. I was hoping to get more info from the original commenter about how to reproduce the bug in the A7 to get a better idea of what to watch out for on mobile.
It would surprise me if sending the value 1.0 from a vertex program to fragment program ever resulted in anything except 1.0 on a desktop GPU. It's not unusual to truncate a float in a fragment program and the use the resulting integer as an index. I think Nvidia has a fairly rigorous battery of tests which they use to ensure compliance with specs. The tests check to make sure that values are being interpolated correctly, to check for off-by-one errors at the edges of triangles, and other such corner cases. The tests are automated, because once you implement a graphics spec correctly, you can generate an output image which should be the same every time it's generated. That way, if an error creeps into the driver, it should be caught pretty quickly, since it will cause a deviation in the rendered output examined by the test suite.
I'm not sure how often a problem occurs in an Nvidia consumer card but not their 'compute' line. Nvidia tries to use the same driver codebase across as many of their products as possible.
Here's an interesting thread where someone points out that certain OpenCL code was giving the correct result on x86 and Nvidia cards, but not AMD cards: http://devgurus.amd.com/thread/145582
In that thread, it's suggested that the reason Nvidia gave the correct result was because their CUDA compute specs had better error margins compared to OpenCL specs. So in that case, it would appear that Nvidia's compute line actually enhanced their accuracy in other contexts such as OpenCL. Rather than implement a different driver for OpenCL, CUDA, and consumer graphics, it seems that Nvidia uses the same driver to power all three, which seems to enhance accuracy rather than hinder it.
While writing up this comment and researching this, I stumbled across this interesting paper from 2011 that details exactly what programmers can expect when programming to an Nvidia GPU (in this case using CUDA): https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/akamai/cuda... ... It's a pretty fun read which helps to solidify the impression that Nvidia cares deeply about providing accurate floating point results.
I also came across this article which was too awesome not to mention: http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/floating-point-d... ... It's not really related to GPU floating point, but it's an excellent exploration of floating point determinism and the effect of various floating point settings.
For mobile graphics stacks like those in cellphones / iPads etc, I share your skepticism. I'm not sure how rigorously tested mobile GPUs are, or how faithfully those stacks adhere to specs. I was hoping to get more info from the original commenter about how to reproduce the bug in the A7 to get a better idea of what to watch out for on mobile.
Even on desktop machines, I had similar problems with large sets of tests that would produce different results depending on which (modern desktop) processor they ran on.
If you're talking about x86 and can isolate a test case, then I'm sure Intel and AMD would be very, very interested in hearing about it. Even better if it is reproducible in something common like Windows' calculator.
Despite the fact that people think of FP math as "inexact" the truth is that it is theoretically exact in the sense that all the arithmetic operations are defined in terms of simple operations on bits just like with integer math (although with more complex combinations of operations), and there is no nondeterminism - the same operation on the same operands should always yield the same bit representations for all combinations of operands. The only inexactness comes from the use of binary fractions, but it is still deterministic.
I suppose for GPUs there is a line of reasoning that says "if the viewer won't notice the diference, then maybe it doesn't matter and we can accept a quantifiably nonzero error rate" but this would be absolutely unacceptable for GPGPU, and I very strongly hope designers of general-purpose FPUs (like x86 and ARM) never go down this dangerous path.
(Of course, you should rule out things like overclocked hardware causing these differences.)
If you're talking about x86 and can isolate a test case, then I'm sure Intel and AMD would be very, very interested in hearing about it. Even better if it is reproducible in something common like Windows' calculator.
Despite the fact that people think of FP math as "inexact" the truth is that it is theoretically exact in the sense that all the arithmetic operations are defined in terms of simple operations on bits just like with integer math (although with more complex combinations of operations), and there is no nondeterminism - the same operation on the same operands should always yield the same bit representations for all combinations of operands. The only inexactness comes from the use of binary fractions, but it is still deterministic.
I suppose for GPUs there is a line of reasoning that says "if the viewer won't notice the diference, then maybe it doesn't matter and we can accept a quantifiably nonzero error rate" but this would be absolutely unacceptable for GPGPU, and I very strongly hope designers of general-purpose FPUs (like x86 and ARM) never go down this dangerous path.
(Of course, you should rule out things like overclocked hardware causing these differences.)
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For the really ambitious, there's always Knuth's treatment in TAoCP volume 2: Semi-Numerical Algorithms. It runs about fifty pages, covers such interesting topics as the statistical distribution of floating point numbers in order to determine average running time, and of course, includes exercises like [42] Make further tests of floating point addition and subtraction, to confirm or improve on the accuracy of Tables 1 and 2.
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Computer-Programming-Volume-Seminu...
On the more social side, Dr. Chuck's interview with William Kahan on the history of the IEEE standard is a good read:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ieee754status/754story.ht...
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Computer-Programming-Volume-Seminu...
On the more social side, Dr. Chuck's interview with William Kahan on the history of the IEEE standard is a good read:
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ieee754status/754story.ht...