Ask HN: Feelings of regret over career path?
17 comments
You are in the best possible position and have the ability to craft your career any way you would like.
Your technical skills could command a high salary at a fairly stable company that would provide ample time for extracurricular philosophizing.
You could apply philosophical principles to starting a company. It all depends on what areas interest you.
You could also go the academic route and pursue those ideas in the comfort of the academy.
Personally, I think technical skills free people to apply philosophy. Capitalism and open markets allow you to build whatever you like and test it with your peers. Like I said at the beginning, technical skills allow you to do anything you can imagine. Good luck.
Just decide who you would be and then do what you must do:)
Your technical skills could command a high salary at a fairly stable company that would provide ample time for extracurricular philosophizing.
You could apply philosophical principles to starting a company. It all depends on what areas interest you.
You could also go the academic route and pursue those ideas in the comfort of the academy.
Personally, I think technical skills free people to apply philosophy. Capitalism and open markets allow you to build whatever you like and test it with your peers. Like I said at the beginning, technical skills allow you to do anything you can imagine. Good luck.
Just decide who you would be and then do what you must do:)
I could not agree more. Technical skills are empowering, especially in this world before us where software is still a growth industry.
Also -- if you're like me and you end up feeling guilty for making a shameless run for money, you have a set of skills that you can step outside and help any non-profit with. Its what drew me to law as well -- I figured I can be helpful to many that otherwise lack money for these sorts of things.
Also -- if you're like me and you end up feeling guilty for making a shameless run for money, you have a set of skills that you can step outside and help any non-profit with. Its what drew me to law as well -- I figured I can be helpful to many that otherwise lack money for these sorts of things.
I'll give you a little secret: they let us engineers read whatever books we darn well please. We can also go to coffee houses and drop names of French intellectuals while finger snapping to beat poetry.
We just pretend to be totally square so that nobody notices we can actually be employed while doing this.
We just pretend to be totally square so that nobody notices we can actually be employed while doing this.
I had this same feeling when I finished my junior year as an Electrical Engineering major. The truth is, I chose that major when I was barely 17 years old, and it was accidental. I chose my major from a drop-down list on a web application. I was going to choose Computer Science, but then I saw "Computer Engineering" and thought it sounded more impressive, so I chose that one. Little did I know how different the coursework was at the time. But I stuck with it until I was 21. Then something hit me. I didn't really enjoy my major at all.
At UT-Austin, the "recommended" degree plan for EE only has 1 elective, no foreign language, and probably 8 classes on circuits. I couldn't help but feel like I had missed out on something, so I decided to take some extra time.
So when I reached my senior year, I decided to drop all of my EE classes the next semester and signed up for all Philosophy classes. Took out a student loan and got a couple student jobs as a web developer, and took my time taking 6 hours a semester for the next 2 years. Ended up moving into a student co-op (an awesome experience), partied, met the girl who would become my wife, got 2 years of work experience, read a lot of philosophy books and novels, took a foreign language, learned to play guitar, and did everything else I had wanted to do.
So that's how I ended up as an EE/Philosophy double major and took 6 years to graduate. Don't regret it at all.
At UT-Austin, the "recommended" degree plan for EE only has 1 elective, no foreign language, and probably 8 classes on circuits. I couldn't help but feel like I had missed out on something, so I decided to take some extra time.
So when I reached my senior year, I decided to drop all of my EE classes the next semester and signed up for all Philosophy classes. Took out a student loan and got a couple student jobs as a web developer, and took my time taking 6 hours a semester for the next 2 years. Ended up moving into a student co-op (an awesome experience), partied, met the girl who would become my wife, got 2 years of work experience, read a lot of philosophy books and novels, took a foreign language, learned to play guitar, and did everything else I had wanted to do.
So that's how I ended up as an EE/Philosophy double major and took 6 years to graduate. Don't regret it at all.
I had a somewhat similar experience. I'm pretty much freaked out my junior year, and almost dropped everything to get a music degree. But I stuck it out, got my CS degree, and landed a good job before graduating. After 1.5 years, I quit. I craved that exploration phase which I never felt I got in school. I spent a year setting up a music studio and teaching guitar lessons out of my apartment. I loved it. But I found my self truly missing hacking on things, and when I got back to it, I realized how much I had missed it. I don't regret my decisions at all. Don't worry so much about what you should do; just do SOMETHING. Good luck!
This is exactly what I want to do! just take a time out to try the things I'm interested to try. I have emailed my advisor to see if something like this is possible.
If you can find part-time employment on campus, you can work for a year and sit in on classes too. That way you can explore without the expense of making it official (most profs are cool with this).
As long as you trust yourself not to slack off during that year.
As long as you trust yourself not to slack off during that year.
Sounds like what I'm doing! Basically, taking more technically-inclined contracts as a web developer, even though I prefer the thinking and managing part of web development just so that I can pursue learning and enjoying life at my leisure.
I think its natural for an intellectually curious person to feel doubts about whatever they choose.
Personally -- I studied Econ as an undergrad, worked at 2 startups for 2 years, then nonprofits for the next 3, and then law school and a big firm job. When I was sitting in that law firm office, I hated my life relative to both the non-profit world and the startup world. Of the 3, the startup world allowed me to live as I most liked.
The thing that I miss about the startup world is that its a meritocracy. Your knowledge and your ability will determine where you stand, not your cultural status or car or whose parents you know. If you know more and can do more than the next guy, you have a voice that people want to hear, regardless of your age, tattoos, vices, etc.
Personally -- I studied Econ as an undergrad, worked at 2 startups for 2 years, then nonprofits for the next 3, and then law school and a big firm job. When I was sitting in that law firm office, I hated my life relative to both the non-profit world and the startup world. Of the 3, the startup world allowed me to live as I most liked.
The thing that I miss about the startup world is that its a meritocracy. Your knowledge and your ability will determine where you stand, not your cultural status or car or whose parents you know. If you know more and can do more than the next guy, you have a voice that people want to hear, regardless of your age, tattoos, vices, etc.
I went a somewhat similar path. I studied Computer Science in undergrad and wasn't sure if that was the route I wanted to take, so I went to law school (three more years of college also sounded fun). I enjoyed my time at law school, especially its relation to philosophy and quasi rule-based systems, inter alia (oh yeah, you pick up some Latin in law school).
However, after a few years out practicing patent law, I miss the hacking, startup, engineering, etc. and related cultures. I obviously took a somewhat circuitous route, but now realize how much more one can do in life hacking things.
Even in patent law, which is highly related to technology and, accordingly, startups, you are just another cog in the creation system, not yourself creating. I find software much more liberating philosophically and mentally. However, practicing patent law does have many positive attributes, e.g., staying abreast of technology is part of your job duties.
I am now heading back, both mentally and hopefully soon career wise, to everything hacking and startup related. My time spent away obviously helped my skill-set in other areas, but, hacking is something too hard to stay away from full-time. Good luck on your journey. I do not think you will regret any path you take.
However, after a few years out practicing patent law, I miss the hacking, startup, engineering, etc. and related cultures. I obviously took a somewhat circuitous route, but now realize how much more one can do in life hacking things.
Even in patent law, which is highly related to technology and, accordingly, startups, you are just another cog in the creation system, not yourself creating. I find software much more liberating philosophically and mentally. However, practicing patent law does have many positive attributes, e.g., staying abreast of technology is part of your job duties.
I am now heading back, both mentally and hopefully soon career wise, to everything hacking and startup related. My time spent away obviously helped my skill-set in other areas, but, hacking is something too hard to stay away from full-time. Good luck on your journey. I do not think you will regret any path you take.
The idea of a meritocracy is something that appeals to me greatly. I hate the feeling that a person's credentials define who they are, and their abilities.
Interesting also that you mentioned law school, since I am also considering looking into that! Are there any law startup type operations out there?
Interesting also that you mentioned law school, since I am also considering looking into that! Are there any law startup type operations out there?
It is the nature of the hacker to question everything, even his inherent hackiness. You're perfectly normal. Now relax and go build something.
I agree. And, the quest for knowledge makes the study of Philosophy look appealing. It appears to be a mysterious field where all truth resides.
Take it from me, it isn't. I got a degree in philosophy. It isn't all bad. It will teach you to read fast, write well, and think logically. It is basically the study of logic and how it relates to language.
If it makes the OP feel better, I went Philosophy, Law, and now all I want to do is hack. The grass is always greener.
Now, we should both just make something.
Take it from me, it isn't. I got a degree in philosophy. It isn't all bad. It will teach you to read fast, write well, and think logically. It is basically the study of logic and how it relates to language.
If it makes the OP feel better, I went Philosophy, Law, and now all I want to do is hack. The grass is always greener.
Now, we should both just make something.
First and foremost, procrastination is death. We were born to take action, even if the action we take is not in the direction of our ideal life, it still enables us to begin a journey and experience everything that the world will present on our path. I believe that life is a puzzle, made up of millions of pieces, or in other words experiences; career, school, relationship, money, vacation, camp, good times, bad times, sickness, regret, deceit, etc. This list could literally go on forever, but what is important to realize is that every single experience that takes place in your world will provide you with a piece to your puzzle of life. Each of these pieces will enable you to get closer to completing your puzzle and having your ideal life being revealed to the world. Now you might be asking yourself, how many people get to the point of actually completing their puzzle? And the answer is extremely few, if any, because human nature is most comfortable, in an uncomfortable way, to be a “fence sitter.” The definition of a “fence sitter” is someone whose complacency and over-analysis of every situation prevents personal growth, and ultimately the puzzle from being completed. So, what I ask you to keep in mind as you begin to make the first magnanimous decision in your life is to listen to what your “gut” is telling you to do. Your intuition will never lead you in a path where you will not grow and when making a decision, if you are unable to look in the mirror and feel comfortable with the person who looks back, then realize that you lying to yourself. The feeling of doubt is called “The Unknown,” because regardless of what path you take, it will be uncharted territory in your world. But like Alan Alda once said, “You have to leave the city of your comfort and go into the wilderness of your intuition. What you’ll discover will be wonderful. What you’ll discover is yourself.” Trust yourself…we are all born with all of the tools that we need to live a life filled with endless opportunities, but it is your choice if you decide to use all of them! Good luck….
I remember having similar feelings when I left University. For me it some of my concerns were about the change, I'd become so used to studying that I found the idea of the working world a little daunting. There are a few things that I've found out:
- No two jobs are the same: technology, opportunities and people change.
- Many more opportunities present themselves in industry, I know many who have very different careers from their degree. The working world has far more jobs for your skills than you might think.
- So far outsourcing software seems just to have caused more software to be written and more innovation. The demand for software has increased.
- You can get into a way of thinking that whatever you do there is always something better: accept the choices you make and see where they lead. It's more rewarding to play to your skills rather than to try and develop completely new skills from scratch (I'm not saying don't try anything new, but by playing to your strengths when you do).
- No two jobs are the same: technology, opportunities and people change.
- Many more opportunities present themselves in industry, I know many who have very different careers from their degree. The working world has far more jobs for your skills than you might think.
- So far outsourcing software seems just to have caused more software to be written and more innovation. The demand for software has increased.
- You can get into a way of thinking that whatever you do there is always something better: accept the choices you make and see where they lead. It's more rewarding to play to your skills rather than to try and develop completely new skills from scratch (I'm not saying don't try anything new, but by playing to your strengths when you do).
Familiar feelings, ha ha. I believe it is human nature to occasionally doubt what you and whether directions you are heading is a right path. I have heard it countless number of times. Though at any given period of time you have to have predominant focus otherwise you will get lost in your choice and will never try either path. The way I solve it, I just act upon the situation, circumstances and intuition coupled with my desires at particular moment of making a decision. I wanted to get PHD in CS but ended up getting master because I was not sure what to concentrate in. Well, now I am in the business world wondering what is next(I might still go for PHD but likely in different field than I though or have successful start up if not both) . I have changed my directions several times but unless you try one you will never know if it is something for you or not.(and there is no negative outcome, you learn on the way plus get understanding if these is something you want or do not). Just try what you believe is desirable and most optimal at this point, listen to your intuition and keep your eyes and mind open to opportunities when they are to come(you will know it).
Other thing I noticed, is depending what direction you chose your priorities change so your choose are likely to change along the line. The only thing that works against you is time but that what our life is about.
Interesting that you mentioned philosophy, being technical with analytical mind, lately I started to get in more and more into philosophy; wonder if is a normal evolutionary trend for hackers or it is just me…
So far I have been quite fortunate to try many technical things, due to a variety of internships (6!) at a seriously varied set of companies. I have tried to pursue what you mentioned, being open to new and interesting paths that present themselves.
I'm glad that there are other people out there like me, and that compulsively trying new things is not necessarily a hindrance.
Also, on your comment about philosophy: I think that on some level, all hackers are philosophers. The field of philosophy itself is often marginalised by technical people (and perhaps rightly so), but the application of logic and analysis is universal in the hacker world view.
I'm glad that there are other people out there like me, and that compulsively trying new things is not necessarily a hindrance.
Also, on your comment about philosophy: I think that on some level, all hackers are philosophers. The field of philosophy itself is often marginalised by technical people (and perhaps rightly so), but the application of logic and analysis is universal in the hacker world view.
One important thing is we are all so different even though we share same commonalities. So you have to make that chose and the best advice in the world might not suit to you.
I got two engineering degrees (ME and EE), and you know what I learned? I learned that engineering is an amazing field and a boring career (for me anyway)!
So, I started doing something else. I now own two companies and in the 6 months since quitting my engineering job, I've doubled my income. No regrets, just decisions and action.
I wouldn't be here had I not went to school and gotten my degrees. Sure, I could probably be somewhere else equally exciting, but this is what I've done, and I enjoyed all of it greatly. When I realized I wasn't enjoying my path at any point, I figured out why and turned.
My one piece of advice is this: don't turn until you've figured out exactly why you're not happy.
So, I started doing something else. I now own two companies and in the 6 months since quitting my engineering job, I've doubled my income. No regrets, just decisions and action.
I wouldn't be here had I not went to school and gotten my degrees. Sure, I could probably be somewhere else equally exciting, but this is what I've done, and I enjoyed all of it greatly. When I realized I wasn't enjoying my path at any point, I figured out why and turned.
My one piece of advice is this: don't turn until you've figured out exactly why you're not happy.
Got a Bachelor's in Computer Science and a Master's in Philosophy here.
If you're seriously into philosophy, do have in mind that casual evening readings will probably not match a year or two of intense study. On the one hand, I think one has to live for a while in academia to get a decent understanding of philosophy. It took me about a year of full-time study for philosophy to really "click". On the other hand, shallow study will not be enough to get somewhat sick of the subject and start avoiding it, which I jokingly consider to be one of the best things about my philosophy education.
Full time study is a fairly big investment in terms of time though, and keep in mind that you will probably want to get back to hacking afterwards.
If you're seriously into philosophy, do have in mind that casual evening readings will probably not match a year or two of intense study. On the one hand, I think one has to live for a while in academia to get a decent understanding of philosophy. It took me about a year of full-time study for philosophy to really "click". On the other hand, shallow study will not be enough to get somewhat sick of the subject and start avoiding it, which I jokingly consider to be one of the best things about my philosophy education.
Full time study is a fairly big investment in terms of time though, and keep in mind that you will probably want to get back to hacking afterwards.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
- Bertrand Russell
- Bertrand Russell
I am not sure if it is a problem because doubt and curiosity leads you to make changes, create and progress
Those that are so certain of themselves often don't allow the more creative thinkers the luxury of being uncertain. They demand action, right now, and typically their foolish brand of action.
I am interested in philosophy, and this is the _reason_ I chose computer engineering. You now have the tools to find the answers to your philosophical questions, in a way that has never before been practical - you can study the nature of the mind by developing models in computational neuroscience; you have enough background in mathematics and logic to study Godel, Turing, Russell, and the meaning of knowledge and truth; you can shed light on the existence free will by developing FMRI analysis tools. Maybe you can look at your ECE degree as the first part of your education.
The questions you mentioned are scientific rather than philosophical. I'd say the discerning feature of most philosophical questions is that no empirical evidence can give a conclusive answer to them. So, no, exposure to science will give you some prejudice (in both a good and bad way) at the beginning of a philosophical argument, but after that, you will mostly be relying on logic.
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Sounds an awful lot like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis#Personal_ana... . I've certainly been there (well, I am there), and I don't know of a solution, if there is such a thing. The conclusion I've come to for myself is to use my doubt and let it inform me, but refuse to let it paralyze me. If that sounds vague, well, it is :).
I studied Philosophy and Political Science in college and I hack for a living. There's nothing that says you must have a formal education in a particular discipline to do something as a career.
I say pursue the discipline you have the most interest and ability in.
I say pursue the discipline you have the most interest and ability in.
I struggled with what to do when I was in college, and ended up with a philosophy bachelor's and CS masters. I've been working as a software engineer since then.
One of the hard parts for me, both in school and later, was that I never really fit in with the CS crowd, since I wasn't nearly geeky enough (I didn't grow up with computers, I learned to program starting sophomore year of college, etc.), and my philosophical leanings lead me to see the world in shades of gray whereas, no offense to anyone here, engineers tend to see the world in more black and white terms than humanities majors. In engineering, there are right answers (does it work? is it faster?). In philosophy or history, there aren't. So that conflict always lead me to feel like maybe I was going the wrong direction, since I just didn't really fit in with the real hard-core hacker types. Was I going to enjoy it? Was I going to be able to keep up? It's often hard to tell just how good you can be or how much you'll enjoy something professionally until you give it a chance.
What eventually tipped me was that I burned out on philosophy; I enjoyed the study of it, I enjoyed the process of it, but at the end of the day no one ever has an answer. Any crazy position on any subject you can think of has someone with tenure that made their reputation by staking out that crazy position, and fundamentally there just aren't hard truths that you can easily cling to to dislodge them. So after my undergrad was done, I was pretty done with it: I'd learned a huge amount, become a better writer and clearer thinker, and learned better how to be objective and how to accept being wrong (and to not care about being right, but rather about getting to the right answer), but my desire for answers and progress wasn't going to be met by further pursuing philosophy, and it was time for me to go out and do something. Philosophy might have answers for you, on a personal level (it did for me), but you're not going to be able to convince other people of those answers no matter how good you are, unless you're one of the 3 best philosophers in any given generation. If just the process alone is enough for you to be fulfilled, more power to you, but for me it wasn't.
I do still wish I could do philosophy, and I miss the absorption in reading philosophy as well as the writing and thinking it entails. I could do more of that on my own time, but I have a hard time splitting my attention like that; both software and philosophy require a lot of mental energy and certain type of lose-your-self absorption in the problems at hand. But I've also found outlets for those impulses: I think a lot about how to make things better in our code base, or how to structure programs, or about language design, or about our development process. When I get the urge to write, I blog about software development and engineering. Software is such an involved, flexible field that you can exercise a lot of different skills and scratch a lot of different itches even within the field. So I don't regret my career choice at all; you can only choose one path in life, so there are always things you'll wish you could have done, and the best you can do is find a path where you're happy and enjoy life.
Perhaps most important to me is that the act of creating something new is, I think, a very special sort of act, and getting paid to do it, to create something new that wasn't there before, is something not a lot of people get to experience. The joy of that alone, I think, is really what drives a lot of software developers, and if you have that deep-seated urge to build things and take joy in creating something new, you'll probably be happy as a professional developer provided you find the right sort of environment.
And on a related note: honestly, no one enjoys their job 100% of the time. Maybe 0.1% of the population actually does, and the rest of us just lie about it in interviews with magazines or TV shows ("I love my job, I get to . . ." and "I have the best job in the world . . .") thus distorting everyone else's perception of normalcy, but regardless of what you do you'll have days where you come home and say, "I just want to go read books all day" or "I just want to go work on a farm" or "I just want to do anything but go to work tomorrow and deal with all this stuff again." It happens to everyone no matter what they're doing or how passionate they are about it.
One of the hard parts for me, both in school and later, was that I never really fit in with the CS crowd, since I wasn't nearly geeky enough (I didn't grow up with computers, I learned to program starting sophomore year of college, etc.), and my philosophical leanings lead me to see the world in shades of gray whereas, no offense to anyone here, engineers tend to see the world in more black and white terms than humanities majors. In engineering, there are right answers (does it work? is it faster?). In philosophy or history, there aren't. So that conflict always lead me to feel like maybe I was going the wrong direction, since I just didn't really fit in with the real hard-core hacker types. Was I going to enjoy it? Was I going to be able to keep up? It's often hard to tell just how good you can be or how much you'll enjoy something professionally until you give it a chance.
What eventually tipped me was that I burned out on philosophy; I enjoyed the study of it, I enjoyed the process of it, but at the end of the day no one ever has an answer. Any crazy position on any subject you can think of has someone with tenure that made their reputation by staking out that crazy position, and fundamentally there just aren't hard truths that you can easily cling to to dislodge them. So after my undergrad was done, I was pretty done with it: I'd learned a huge amount, become a better writer and clearer thinker, and learned better how to be objective and how to accept being wrong (and to not care about being right, but rather about getting to the right answer), but my desire for answers and progress wasn't going to be met by further pursuing philosophy, and it was time for me to go out and do something. Philosophy might have answers for you, on a personal level (it did for me), but you're not going to be able to convince other people of those answers no matter how good you are, unless you're one of the 3 best philosophers in any given generation. If just the process alone is enough for you to be fulfilled, more power to you, but for me it wasn't.
I do still wish I could do philosophy, and I miss the absorption in reading philosophy as well as the writing and thinking it entails. I could do more of that on my own time, but I have a hard time splitting my attention like that; both software and philosophy require a lot of mental energy and certain type of lose-your-self absorption in the problems at hand. But I've also found outlets for those impulses: I think a lot about how to make things better in our code base, or how to structure programs, or about language design, or about our development process. When I get the urge to write, I blog about software development and engineering. Software is such an involved, flexible field that you can exercise a lot of different skills and scratch a lot of different itches even within the field. So I don't regret my career choice at all; you can only choose one path in life, so there are always things you'll wish you could have done, and the best you can do is find a path where you're happy and enjoy life.
Perhaps most important to me is that the act of creating something new is, I think, a very special sort of act, and getting paid to do it, to create something new that wasn't there before, is something not a lot of people get to experience. The joy of that alone, I think, is really what drives a lot of software developers, and if you have that deep-seated urge to build things and take joy in creating something new, you'll probably be happy as a professional developer provided you find the right sort of environment.
And on a related note: honestly, no one enjoys their job 100% of the time. Maybe 0.1% of the population actually does, and the rest of us just lie about it in interviews with magazines or TV shows ("I love my job, I get to . . ." and "I have the best job in the world . . .") thus distorting everyone else's perception of normalcy, but regardless of what you do you'll have days where you come home and say, "I just want to go read books all day" or "I just want to go work on a farm" or "I just want to do anything but go to work tomorrow and deal with all this stuff again." It happens to everyone no matter what they're doing or how passionate they are about it.
I dont know about the others but I do feel just like you. I had also posted something like this here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=824178.
And about philosophy I think every true hacker is a philosopher in its true sense. Hacking is in my opinion a type of philosophy of living. Philosophy can be summed up to being investigation of questions and also analysis of the answers. And every hacker does just that. And even if the questions are not exactly about life, but hacking is philosophy in its own right.
And about philosophy I think every true hacker is a philosopher in its true sense. Hacking is in my opinion a type of philosophy of living. Philosophy can be summed up to being investigation of questions and also analysis of the answers. And every hacker does just that. And even if the questions are not exactly about life, but hacking is philosophy in its own right.
philosophy = physics without the math
Do the world a favor and stick with hacking: build something.
Do the world a favor and stick with hacking: build something.
I disagree. I'm more inclined to say:
philosophy = science - assumptions
Also, mathematics came from philosophy... So did Science, actually.
philosophy = science - assumptions
Also, mathematics came from philosophy... So did Science, actually.
I'm not sure I follow you there. Quite a few philosophers are mathematicians-- René Descartes, Bertrand Russel, and Kurt Gödel are a few famous examples. It's also not at all clear the world would have been better off if they'd chosen to be engineers instead.
Sometimes I am sure that I want to hack software for the rest of my life, sometimes I am sure that I want to get a masters degree in a technical field, and occasionally I want to give it all up and study philosophy!
I know that a certain amount introspection is healthy, but I am concerned that if I truly have so many doubts about my field, perhaps I am not meant to be here, you know?
I was just curious if any of my fellow hackers have felt intense feelings of doubt about their future, and regrets that they didn't pursue something different? If so how have you coped with this continually shifting frame of reference?