Ask HN: What should I do in this situation?
46 comments
They almost certainly won't fire you for asking for a raise. Like you said yourself, your replacement would certainly be more expensive, and they'll lose at least 3 months of productivity even if the replacement is adequate.
I'd start looking for other jobs and, in parallel, tell the boss that you value the lack of the commute quite highly and that if they want you to commute you'll be happy to consider their offer for what is essentially a new job. If they suggest "Your current salary" you say "Hah, good one. No seriously, what is your offer, knowing how valuable of an employee I am and how difficult I would be to replace?"
More generally: most engineers who feel they are getting screwed are indeed getting screwed. (And many engineers who feel adequately compensated are in fact getting screwed but have psychological issues and asymmetric information which makes this less than obvious.) People will NOT fix this for you. You have to take responsibility for your own career.
P.S. Ducking meetings with you is a negotiating tactic! And it is working! You have to summon a modicum of intestinal fortitude and say "Boss, the fact of the upcoming move means my salary is going to get renegotiated. You get to pick whether that renegotiation happens in your office or not."
I'd start looking for other jobs and, in parallel, tell the boss that you value the lack of the commute quite highly and that if they want you to commute you'll be happy to consider their offer for what is essentially a new job. If they suggest "Your current salary" you say "Hah, good one. No seriously, what is your offer, knowing how valuable of an employee I am and how difficult I would be to replace?"
More generally: most engineers who feel they are getting screwed are indeed getting screwed. (And many engineers who feel adequately compensated are in fact getting screwed but have psychological issues and asymmetric information which makes this less than obvious.) People will NOT fix this for you. You have to take responsibility for your own career.
P.S. Ducking meetings with you is a negotiating tactic! And it is working! You have to summon a modicum of intestinal fortitude and say "Boss, the fact of the upcoming move means my salary is going to get renegotiated. You get to pick whether that renegotiation happens in your office or not."
Patrick (the commenter I'm replying to) happens to have written the best article you'll ever read on the topic:
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
It really helps put things into perspective.
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
It really helps put things into perspective.
My brother recently tried Patrick's advice interviewing for a sysadmin position at a small family business in the Chicago suburbs. When he attempted to negotiate after they indicated they were offering him employment, his offer was rescinded and they thanked him for his time.
This part of Patrick's article is still great advice in that regard:
"This means you need what political scientists call a commitment strategy: you always, as a matter of policy, negotiate all offers. (In this wide world I’m sure you can find a company who still makes exploding offers, where you get one yay-or-nay and then the offer is gone. You have a simple recourse to them: refuse them and deal with people who are willing to be professionals. You’re not a peasant. Don’t act like one.)"
This I find to be a sticking point, and never forget: "You’re not a peasant. Don’t act like one."
This part of Patrick's article is still great advice in that regard:
"This means you need what political scientists call a commitment strategy: you always, as a matter of policy, negotiate all offers. (In this wide world I’m sure you can find a company who still makes exploding offers, where you get one yay-or-nay and then the offer is gone. You have a simple recourse to them: refuse them and deal with people who are willing to be professionals. You’re not a peasant. Don’t act like one.)"
This I find to be a sticking point, and never forget: "You’re not a peasant. Don’t act like one."
Sounds like a win for your brother in my opinion. That company was probably an awful place to work.
That was our consensus as well.
To be fair from a managers perspective this would act as a good filter, those who are willing to demand negotiation over those who aren't are more likely to want everything they can get in the current market (which is perfectly reasonable). You're more likely to get those who are inexperienced in the job market, or those who are so insecure/timid about their professional lives that they are willing to take what they can get.
Which is great for an employer who doesn't care about his/her workers/
Which is great for an employer who doesn't care about his/her workers/
Yip, excellent article... I pointed a friend to this while giving him a pep-talk on how much he knew and how much he was worth. Went up ~15-20K from his old position...
Thanks, that made my day.
The move has already happened, just now the new manager wants me to come in more.
You hear about things like "negotiation tactics" but I've never experienced this, so it's hard to recognize.
Thanks for the advice.
You hear about things like "negotiation tactics" but I've never experienced this, so it's hard to recognize.
Thanks for the advice.
I was in somewhat of a similar position earlier in my career. I was afraid to stand up for myself and ended up meekly accepting my employer's BS about how there wasn't money in the budget for raises, but they liked me so much and valued my work and can I please work just a little more unpaid overtime?
I gave away hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of salary for nothing more than a smile and a thank you. And that's not counting the present value of that money had I pooled it with the rest of my investments (nor the opportunity cost of those extra hours worked). In fact the amount I "lost" by being my company's bitch dwarfs my investment returns. And I could have had it without taking on the much larger risks of the stock market. That's maybe the most important lesson.
So don't make the same mistake as me. Get out there and look for a better job. Always be looking for a better job[1]. Give each employer your full effort... And don't hesitate to to jump ship the minute something better comes along. Just like how they would not hesitate to lay you off if it made financial sense to them.
[1] where we define "better" as "job that pays a least the market rate; that you enjoy; learning something that makes you more valuable to your next employer."
You are a business just as much as your employer is. That means you promote your service to potential buyers; understand the value of your service; and charge what the market bear for your service
I gave away hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of salary for nothing more than a smile and a thank you. And that's not counting the present value of that money had I pooled it with the rest of my investments (nor the opportunity cost of those extra hours worked). In fact the amount I "lost" by being my company's bitch dwarfs my investment returns. And I could have had it without taking on the much larger risks of the stock market. That's maybe the most important lesson.
So don't make the same mistake as me. Get out there and look for a better job. Always be looking for a better job[1]. Give each employer your full effort... And don't hesitate to to jump ship the minute something better comes along. Just like how they would not hesitate to lay you off if it made financial sense to them.
[1] where we define "better" as "job that pays a least the market rate; that you enjoy; learning something that makes you more valuable to your next employer."
You are a business just as much as your employer is. That means you promote your service to potential buyers; understand the value of your service; and charge what the market bear for your service
You are a business just as much as your employer is. That means you promote your service to potential buyers; understand the value of your service; and charge what the market bear for your service
This is the piece of advice I wish I knew early in my career. Tape it to the bathroom mirror and ask "What did I do yesterday which increased the enterprise value of Me, Inc. and what is my plan for doing more today?"
This is the piece of advice I wish I knew early in my career. Tape it to the bathroom mirror and ask "What did I do yesterday which increased the enterprise value of Me, Inc. and what is my plan for doing more today?"
I totally get it. It's a complete mindset change and those are a little hard to get started. Definitely appreciate the advice.
You're welcome, I hope you find it useful. And just in case it's not obvious, let me point out that what you're getting here is free advice from strangers on the internet. So please don't blindly follow anything here without taking some time to seriously think through the possible outcomes and consequences.
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The first, small, step is to realize that you are the captain of your career. Your boss might care a little bit, but is mostly concerned with his or her own career prospects. Your company is a legal fiction that doesn't care about you at all. If you want your career to be good, you either float along and hope to get lucky, or you take charge of it yourself.
Personally I think you're likely to be ok. Even if you need to make some career choices for long term strategy and taking the short term hit (like accepting a smaller, or 0, increase than you're happy with so you can continue paying your bills while looking for a better job)
If they are already planning to replace you then nothing you do is going to help and you might as well start looking for another job.
If they are NOT planning to replace you, then I believe it's totally reasonable for you to talk to them about level setting your salary to (at least) the high end of what they currently pay plus offsetting your commute costs (gas + wear&tear)...
AND start looking for another job. (Keeping in mind that you are not morally or legally obligated to accept any job offers.)
For negotiating, the most important things to remember are:
- What happens if you cannot find mutual ground with your boss? What are you going to do? Walk out of your job or start commuting for the same salary? Can you live with that until you find a different source of income?
- Your own goals (eg, how much money do you want? What other perks are important to you?)
For money, consider what you would reasonably expect to be paid if you were coming into it with your current level of experience from a different company (assuming no significant commute)
Separately consider how much someone would have to pay you to drive your proposed commute, every day, during rush hour. How much would that need to be feel like it's a worthwhile use of your time?
Summing those numbers gives you an idea of the minimum baseline amount you should aim for. If you can get that much, then you'll be reasonably happy. you should, of course, try to get a higher number than that. DO NOT GIVE THAT NUMBER TO YOUR BOSS
- Your boss's goals. What does he care about? more importantly, what are you in a position to give him that would make him want to make you happy?
The dark side to that, or course, is "what does your boss fear and how can you take advantage of that" though personally I am unwilling to go there.
- What other alternatives do you have RIGHT NOW in your hands? Do you have significant savings? Do you have other sources of income?
Ok... this is getting too long and I'm enjoying the sound of my mental "preaching" voice a little too much. Time to stop opining :)
Good luck! I hope you end up in a happier situation.
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The first, small, step is to realize that you are the captain of your career. Your boss might care a little bit, but is mostly concerned with his or her own career prospects. Your company is a legal fiction that doesn't care about you at all. If you want your career to be good, you either float along and hope to get lucky, or you take charge of it yourself.
Personally I think you're likely to be ok. Even if you need to make some career choices for long term strategy and taking the short term hit (like accepting a smaller, or 0, increase than you're happy with so you can continue paying your bills while looking for a better job)
If they are already planning to replace you then nothing you do is going to help and you might as well start looking for another job.
If they are NOT planning to replace you, then I believe it's totally reasonable for you to talk to them about level setting your salary to (at least) the high end of what they currently pay plus offsetting your commute costs (gas + wear&tear)...
AND start looking for another job. (Keeping in mind that you are not morally or legally obligated to accept any job offers.)
For negotiating, the most important things to remember are:
- What happens if you cannot find mutual ground with your boss? What are you going to do? Walk out of your job or start commuting for the same salary? Can you live with that until you find a different source of income?
- Your own goals (eg, how much money do you want? What other perks are important to you?)
For money, consider what you would reasonably expect to be paid if you were coming into it with your current level of experience from a different company (assuming no significant commute)
Separately consider how much someone would have to pay you to drive your proposed commute, every day, during rush hour. How much would that need to be feel like it's a worthwhile use of your time?
Summing those numbers gives you an idea of the minimum baseline amount you should aim for. If you can get that much, then you'll be reasonably happy. you should, of course, try to get a higher number than that. DO NOT GIVE THAT NUMBER TO YOUR BOSS
- Your boss's goals. What does he care about? more importantly, what are you in a position to give him that would make him want to make you happy?
The dark side to that, or course, is "what does your boss fear and how can you take advantage of that" though personally I am unwilling to go there.
- What other alternatives do you have RIGHT NOW in your hands? Do you have significant savings? Do you have other sources of income?
Ok... this is getting too long and I'm enjoying the sound of my mental "preaching" voice a little too much. Time to stop opining :)
Good luck! I hope you end up in a happier situation.
Don't ever think of this as "what is fair".
This is a negotiation between you and employer and it comes down to supply & demand, market value and who has the upper hand.
If you don't have another job lined up at same (or higher) salary, then the company has the upper hand and you're too afraid to even ask for a raise because you worry that you'll get fired.
As others said, you need to at least try to get another job. You can always apply and not accept the offer but only by applying and going through the process to the point of getting an offer you'll be able to answer the following questions:
1. how hard is it for you to get another job ?
2. if you do get an offer, is it better or worse than the current job ?
If you do get a better offer then you can use it as a leverage to get a better salary at your current company ("Hi boss. I really like working here but I'm paid below my market rate. I have an opportunity to take another job paying $X but I would rather stay here if you can match that salary. Your move.").
But when you do that, you have to be willing to take the other job if your company says no. You can always wipe your tears with the additional dollar bills.
This is a negotiation between you and employer and it comes down to supply & demand, market value and who has the upper hand.
If you don't have another job lined up at same (or higher) salary, then the company has the upper hand and you're too afraid to even ask for a raise because you worry that you'll get fired.
As others said, you need to at least try to get another job. You can always apply and not accept the offer but only by applying and going through the process to the point of getting an offer you'll be able to answer the following questions:
1. how hard is it for you to get another job ?
2. if you do get an offer, is it better or worse than the current job ?
If you do get a better offer then you can use it as a leverage to get a better salary at your current company ("Hi boss. I really like working here but I'm paid below my market rate. I have an opportunity to take another job paying $X but I would rather stay here if you can match that salary. Your move.").
But when you do that, you have to be willing to take the other job if your company says no. You can always wipe your tears with the additional dollar bills.
You should have left 3+ months ago. Your not valued there.
No one gets a raise out of niceness. You get a raise because they're Damn afraid you are going to leave.
If they don't push to promote you, then get out and promote yourself.
If they promote you, still get out and promote yourself harder.
Mind your own business.
No one gets a raise out of niceness. You get a raise because they're Damn afraid you are going to leave.
If they don't push to promote you, then get out and promote yourself.
If they promote you, still get out and promote yourself harder.
Mind your own business.
Depending on the kind of job, remote working is a perfect way to get the job done. If you feel this can be your case, then maybe your boss is not acting very smart.
In terms of job alternatives, if you feel that you would need to commute anyway, look around, I bet there are several open positions for which you would be able to work remotely (in some cases you might trade something like 1 day a week at the office).
At the end, give your boss another chance to understand your situation, go talk with him. It will be the ultimate way to know if that's the place you still want to work at or not.
In terms of job alternatives, if you feel that you would need to commute anyway, look around, I bet there are several open positions for which you would be able to work remotely (in some cases you might trade something like 1 day a week at the office).
At the end, give your boss another chance to understand your situation, go talk with him. It will be the ultimate way to know if that's the place you still want to work at or not.
The gas card will pay for gas. It won't pay for wear and tear on your car and the 2 hours (possibly much more, depending on traffic) that you're going to lose every single workday.
Look at it this way: you're trading your time for their money. You're going to increase your job-related time expenditure by 25% or more (if you normally spend 8 hours working), plus incurring car expenses. It's going to take a hefty raise to make up for that.
I agree with several of the others: it's probably time to look for a new job.
Look at it this way: you're trading your time for their money. You're going to increase your job-related time expenditure by 25% or more (if you normally spend 8 hours working), plus incurring car expenses. It's going to take a hefty raise to make up for that.
I agree with several of the others: it's probably time to look for a new job.
I am speaking from my own experience.
My boss left as a result of corporate incompetence (not his, the company). I will not go into that, but as a very senior and generally well liked person in a very large company, with the ability to bring a lot of work in (100s of jobs per year, approaching 1000s), these were big shoes to fill. He was the greatest manager I'd ever had. He didn't manage, he led.
His role was filled by someone quite new to the organisation. I hated it for months, but 1.5 years later, I liked him a lot.
He needed to show his boss that he could fill the shoes. That meant exceeding expectations. New, out-larged goals, visible checklists for what should be done, regular follow-ups.
But after a few months I realised his vulnerability in still feeling vulnerable. We didn't chat explicitly, and in retrospect we should have, but on a particularly difficult challenge that all thought impossible, we were achieved a big result, and bonded on that.
This was a management role where it easy to hire 'workers' but painfully hard to find people with requisite domain knowledge and demonstrable management experience, in a location it was very hard to get people to relocate (internally) to. If the salary offers you're seeing are higher, it is likely you are in an equally illiquid market. I also never explicitly asked for a raise, but after some time and trust had developed he bumped me up quite a bit.
It may be the case that the new incumbent in the role feels they do not have control. Let them feel they have control: document your work, stick to deadlines, and see each other face-to-face to discuss. They could well feel more vulnerable than you do now, despite a position of authority. Make it a partnership.
My boss left as a result of corporate incompetence (not his, the company). I will not go into that, but as a very senior and generally well liked person in a very large company, with the ability to bring a lot of work in (100s of jobs per year, approaching 1000s), these were big shoes to fill. He was the greatest manager I'd ever had. He didn't manage, he led.
His role was filled by someone quite new to the organisation. I hated it for months, but 1.5 years later, I liked him a lot.
He needed to show his boss that he could fill the shoes. That meant exceeding expectations. New, out-larged goals, visible checklists for what should be done, regular follow-ups.
But after a few months I realised his vulnerability in still feeling vulnerable. We didn't chat explicitly, and in retrospect we should have, but on a particularly difficult challenge that all thought impossible, we were achieved a big result, and bonded on that.
This was a management role where it easy to hire 'workers' but painfully hard to find people with requisite domain knowledge and demonstrable management experience, in a location it was very hard to get people to relocate (internally) to. If the salary offers you're seeing are higher, it is likely you are in an equally illiquid market. I also never explicitly asked for a raise, but after some time and trust had developed he bumped me up quite a bit.
It may be the case that the new incumbent in the role feels they do not have control. Let them feel they have control: document your work, stick to deadlines, and see each other face-to-face to discuss. They could well feel more vulnerable than you do now, despite a position of authority. Make it a partnership.
P.S.
No harm in circulating your CV around headhunters to learn your general market worth.
No harm in circulating your CV around headhunters to learn your general market worth.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it seems very likely that you are not highly appreciated by your new boss. He is probably hoping you quit; he's not doing anything to encourage you to stay. I doubt he will offer much in the way of a raise to keep you on.
In a situation like this, the fact that you are infrequently on site has probably contributed to your ending up on the short side of the stick wrt office politics. You have likely missed important social cues related to the new boss' style and expectations. You have not been physically present to make sure you get credit for your work, and to counteract any negative karma that might have been thrown your way.
No it's not exactly fair, but employment is generally 'at will', there is no guarantee of fairness or bulwark against capricious or petty treatment.
In a situation like this, the fact that you are infrequently on site has probably contributed to your ending up on the short side of the stick wrt office politics. You have likely missed important social cues related to the new boss' style and expectations. You have not been physically present to make sure you get credit for your work, and to counteract any negative karma that might have been thrown your way.
No it's not exactly fair, but employment is generally 'at will', there is no guarantee of fairness or bulwark against capricious or petty treatment.
You have worked there for two years, without a single raise. And you make the lowest amount for this position.
This is a good thing and a bad thing - Good thing: since it is the lowest amount for this position, you have an upper hand. Its difficult (and costly) for them to replace you.
Bad thing - why did you not get a raise and why you are at that lower end - does it have something to do with your performance, or is it just some crappy office politics keeping your pay down?
If you performed well you deserve to get a raise - at least to compensate for the move to office. So definitely ask for it.
Also, do you go to office for 1-2 weeks in a period of about 6 months or so - It is also important to get a feel of your office environment if you all were not a completely remote team.
This is a good thing and a bad thing - Good thing: since it is the lowest amount for this position, you have an upper hand. Its difficult (and costly) for them to replace you.
Bad thing - why did you not get a raise and why you are at that lower end - does it have something to do with your performance, or is it just some crappy office politics keeping your pay down?
If you performed well you deserve to get a raise - at least to compensate for the move to office. So definitely ask for it.
Also, do you go to office for 1-2 weeks in a period of about 6 months or so - It is also important to get a feel of your office environment if you all were not a completely remote team.
If you can avoid making it an adversarial situation, that may help. Make it obvious to them that you feel like you're a very valuable employee, that you are very productive for them and losing three hours/day on a commute is just wasting either your time or theirs. You'll be most productive when you're happy, not with the drudgery of an big drive twice a day.
Can they make an exception for your being in the office, or make it a day per week or something like that? I agree with someone else who said that three hours/day driving wouldn't be worth whatever they're likely to offer.
Can they make an exception for your being in the office, or make it a day per week or something like that? I agree with someone else who said that three hours/day driving wouldn't be worth whatever they're likely to offer.
You should probably start looking for a new job now.
Before you pitch the new boss with the idea that you deserve more money and the ability to continue working remote office-- read this book > http://pitchanything.com/book/
There's an attitude and posturing element to this, you're The Prize. He's lucky you're on the team. Not arrogant, but self-assured.
There's an attitude and posturing element to this, you're The Prize. He's lucky you're on the team. Not arrogant, but self-assured.
Maybe it's time to start looking for a new job. Are there opportunities available closer to your home?
Yes, but many involve a commute nearly as rough as the one I'm facing now. But I suppose in that situation, I could negotiate a higher salary from the get-go.
If your current employer isn't entertaining the idea of a raise (especially a substantial raise), you should wonder how much they really value you as an employee (the answer: probably not too much).
You should always have your eyes open for a better opportunity, especially if you don't feel all that happy with your current situation (that's one small luxury we currently have in the software development industry—take advantage of it!).
On the flip side, if you're satisfied where you are, and you're on a great team, feel free to stay, but know that any kind of raise would be an uphill battle.
You should always have your eyes open for a better opportunity, especially if you don't feel all that happy with your current situation (that's one small luxury we currently have in the software development industry—take advantage of it!).
On the flip side, if you're satisfied where you are, and you're on a great team, feel free to stay, but know that any kind of raise would be an uphill battle.
This is how I'm starting to feel. I love the team. Part of me thinks I'm blowing this out of proportion and ascribing nefarious motives to the higher-ups when they don't actually have any... but I also think I'm telling myself that so I don't have to face reality.
There's nothing particularly nefarious to "We have him at $X and have not been presented with any rational reason to offer $X + $Y." ("I deserve more" is not a rational reason. "You cannot purchase my services for $X and you want those services" is a rational reason.)
"wants everyone in the office more, including me"
Well, one day a year is more than none. You could make the trip once and talk face to face.
In that meeting, you could reveal what you've learned about your salary relative to new hires, ask for a raise, and schedule another trip for 6 months down the line.
Well, one day a year is more than none. You could make the trip once and talk face to face.
In that meeting, you could reveal what you've learned about your salary relative to new hires, ask for a raise, and schedule another trip for 6 months down the line.
I guess it depends on what kind of company you're working for. I work for an enterprise software company, and if my situation were like yours, I would be looking around for either a new job or a house/apartment closer to the office.
I can’t remember where I read it, but “studies“ have shown that to retain the same level of happiness you need to make $40K more per additional hour of commute.
Maybe that can be a starting point for negotiating a raise.
Maybe that can be a starting point for negotiating a raise.
[deleted]
Using the lens of 'what makes the most sense in the long term', could you really handle commuting 54 miles? Personally I couldn't handle that commute for any price.
I tell myself I could, but it's rough. A good 3+ hours in the car every day.
That's two good hobbies and sixpack abs right there, if you spend that time on self improvement instead of sitting in a car. Commutes over on hour per day are a huge sacrifice from your most precious resource: unallocated time
Honestly, the mornings and the evenings are the time I get to spend with my wife and daughter. I value time with them infinitely more than I value listening to audiobooks/podcasts in rush hour traffic for 15 hours a week.
I think he means what you mean, that you could be doing far better things in the 3 hours you waste in the car.
Yeah, you're totally right. I completely missed the "instead of sitting in the car" part. Thanks. Sorry nikanj.
Talk to a lawyer and get them to talk to your boss about the remote work situation and the initial contract.
Assuming the OP is an at-will employee (which is what it sounds like), I don't think the initial agreement matters. The cool thing about being at-will is you can quit whenever you want. Nobody can force you to stay there. The bad thing is they can fire you whenever they want for (almost) any reason.
That said, if you want to know your legal options, you absolutely should talk to a lawyer.
That said, if you want to know your legal options, you absolutely should talk to a lawyer.
I don't see any reason to get a lawyer involved. They've paid him everything they owed him for the work he's done so far. They've made him a bad offer for the future (crap salary plus crap working conditions) that he would be very unwise to take, but there's nothing illegal about making a bad offer, any more than it would be illegal for him to offer to work for a million dollars an hour. He just needs to make it clear that he's not willing to work for them unless he gets either good pay or good working conditions.
It was just an oral agreement. Nothing on paper.
In other words, it was a fiction entertained by two people, one of whom no longer works there.
He still works there and can probably vouch for the agreement, but he's no longer my direct supervisor.
Oh... my mistake then, sorry.
Still probably not binding though.
Still probably not binding though.
Since then, we've gotten a new boss that wants everyone in the office more, including me. I told him we need to discuss my salary if he's changing the conditions of the job I accepted. He's been blowing me off for a few weeks now.
I haven't received any raises there and I found out that they're expanding the team and my salary is the lowest they're willing to pay for a new person in my position.
What I want to know is, what should I do with this information? I'm afraid that if I ask for more money, they might fire me, since they're hiring for my position anyway (for a different team, they say).
However, I don't think it's fair that I haven't received a single raise and that I make the lowest amount for this position, especially after two years of nothing but great work.
What should I do? Any help would be appreciated.
EDIT: I received word from my boss about a gas card...