So, leboncoin.fr doesn't like my email alert webapp(lebonmail.com)
lebonmail.com
So, leboncoin.fr doesn't like my email alert webapp
http://lebonmail.com/courrier_lebonmail.com.pdf
13 comments
http://leboncoin.fr
I did it! and they said I couldn't..
I did it! and they said I couldn't..
leboncoin.fr is gonna sue YC now. What have you done...
I'm ashamed to be french when I see this kind of horse shit.
The internet is not compatible with their TOS.
Why are all the French so ashamed to be French all the time?
I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when a Le Pen won something somewhere. I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when an anti piracy group pirates a logo. I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when some president felt the need to compensate for something by blowing up a nuclear bomb in the pacific.
Somehow, anecdotally, being ashamed to be born somewhere is a particularly French phenomenon. Why?
France has all the above things, but also a great healthcare system, nice people, a somewhat functional democracy, and many other great things.
There's 60 million Frenchmen. Are you going to be ashamed every time one of them does something wrong? Do you expect them to be ashamed every time you do something wrong?
Instead of shame, maybe it would be more constructive to organize and do something about it. The ivory tower of the French political elite is notorious, but not unsurmountable.
I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when a Le Pen won something somewhere. I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when an anti piracy group pirates a logo. I've seen Frenchmen ashamed to be French when some president felt the need to compensate for something by blowing up a nuclear bomb in the pacific.
Somehow, anecdotally, being ashamed to be born somewhere is a particularly French phenomenon. Why?
France has all the above things, but also a great healthcare system, nice people, a somewhat functional democracy, and many other great things.
There's 60 million Frenchmen. Are you going to be ashamed every time one of them does something wrong? Do you expect them to be ashamed every time you do something wrong?
Instead of shame, maybe it would be more constructive to organize and do something about it. The ivory tower of the French political elite is notorious, but not unsurmountable.
This is not a French phenomenon. There is a difference between political affairs, such as extreme rights winning elections and a nuclear bomb explosion, than your neighbor being an asshole. Being ashamed of something means people you consider in the same group as you do things you find not acceptable (it could be a country, as it's the case here, but also a community, a football team or whatever). In fact, being ashamed shows you'd prefer this entity to react differently to make you and the group you're considering better.
Yes, we should be ashamed when someone does something wrong. In fact, we shouldn't be ashamed to be ashamed of some dumb decision. Being ashamed doesn't mean we are not doing anything else about it. You've seen Frenchmen being ashamed to be French, and that's OK. It means they're not thinking their country is the best, but they can also learn from their mistakes. And I am proud of this, as a French person, too, though I am ashamed of LeBonCoin's strategy.
Yes, we should be ashamed when someone does something wrong. In fact, we shouldn't be ashamed to be ashamed of some dumb decision. Being ashamed doesn't mean we are not doing anything else about it. You've seen Frenchmen being ashamed to be French, and that's OK. It means they're not thinking their country is the best, but they can also learn from their mistakes. And I am proud of this, as a French person, too, though I am ashamed of LeBonCoin's strategy.
Americans are ashamed of being American, Australians are ashamed of being Australian, the French are ashamed of being French.
It's a pretty common thing across every culture where people attribute the bad things that happen around them to the geography or culture when in reality, there are crappy drivers all over the world.
It's a pretty common thing across every culture where people attribute the bad things that happen around them to the geography or culture when in reality, there are crappy drivers all over the world.
Might be just me, but I've never seen Americans be ashamed of being American in situations like these. Their standard reaction seems to be "boo! call your representative!"
You might have a point. Imagine that I am ashamed at having been ashamed, and I'm often ashamed at french being ashamed for random reasons.
Maybe we have too high expectations.
Because we were once a great nation, so we have high expectations about how we are perceived in the world.
I agree there's nothing to be ashamed here, especially as leboncoin position is quite understandable (and their tone not that menacing).
I agree there's nothing to be ashamed here, especially as leboncoin position is quite understandable (and their tone not that menacing).
It would be a pointless anyway to be ashamed to be French because of leboncoin.fr as the stuff is based on a Swedish technology
> I'm ashamed to be french
No need to, it's just plain old cheap lawyer tactics, it's been around since the beginning of time:
Scare people (i.e. by making them feel they're in danger) and they will do what you want. (Law seems complicated to non-lawyers, so lawyers make use of that, basically by communicating "I'm the specialist and you don't know anything about this domain, so do as I say")
In the case of this story, all I'd suggest the owner of the app, to steer clear of legal issues, is:
a) don't use their name,
b) don't use their logo (or other very distinct parts of their Corporate Identity)
c) re-launch your app (using proxies)
EDIT: On second thought - they don't deserve your exclusive traffic/promotion/value you add. If you keep your app alive, you should multiply your sources (add as many similar sites as possible).
No need to, it's just plain old cheap lawyer tactics, it's been around since the beginning of time:
Scare people (i.e. by making them feel they're in danger) and they will do what you want. (Law seems complicated to non-lawyers, so lawyers make use of that, basically by communicating "I'm the specialist and you don't know anything about this domain, so do as I say")
In the case of this story, all I'd suggest the owner of the app, to steer clear of legal issues, is:
a) don't use their name,
b) don't use their logo (or other very distinct parts of their Corporate Identity)
c) re-launch your app (using proxies)
EDIT: On second thought - they don't deserve your exclusive traffic/promotion/value you add. If you keep your app alive, you should multiply your sources (add as many similar sites as possible).
It was more about the TOS than the lawyer letter. People from all around the world get to be ashamed by their lawyers.
A lot of websites use similar rules in their TOS. I think those terms are deliberately broad so they can cover a lot of use cases if necessary.
This post is confusing both because I do not speak French and because the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet, so I read that as LeBron Coin. Which doesn't seem all that bad for a gimmicky crypto currency, honestly.
So there's this website that's the 7th in france according to Alexa (http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/FR) It's the craigslist of france. They don't have email alerts so I built a web app that does just that.
Then they noticed the traffic from my server (I guess) and blocked my IP from scraping their site, making the app basically useless, so I just forgot about it.
Now they are telling that I'm using their trademark in a way that can make users confuse my service with theirs, that according to their TOS I can't event link to their website without authorization (am I even bound by their TOS if I don't use their website?) and so on and so forth.
It was just a side project for me, so I don't mind dropping it.
The source code is on Github though if anyone is interested (https://github.com/jfoucher/lebonmail)
Then they noticed the traffic from my server (I guess) and blocked my IP from scraping their site, making the app basically useless, so I just forgot about it.
Now they are telling that I'm using their trademark in a way that can make users confuse my service with theirs, that according to their TOS I can't event link to their website without authorization (am I even bound by their TOS if I don't use their website?) and so on and so forth.
It was just a side project for me, so I don't mind dropping it.
The source code is on Github though if anyone is interested (https://github.com/jfoucher/lebonmail)
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Use proxies.
That's a bad idea - doing that shows intent to circumvent an intended block.
See the last notable case "Craigslist v. 3Taps": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#No...
See the last notable case "Craigslist v. 3Taps": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#No...
I'm not sure if this is applicable to French/European law.
Nevertheless: If somebody doesn't want you to scrape, don't do it.
Nevertheless: If somebody doesn't want you to scrape, don't do it.
For those who don't read French and don't wish to investigate too much, "leboncoin" (le bon coin) roughly means "the good neighborhood/hangout" (and literally means "the good corner") in French.
In brief , Craiglist french website version known as "leboncoin.fr" sent a letter to the author of "lebonmail.fr" a website that uses leboncoin.fr API to send its users a daily email alerts of items to be sold on "leboncoin.fr".
The letter ask the author to stop using the service provided by leboncoin.fr immediately .
In the U.S., this would be like someone creating a Craigslist screen scraper and calling it Craigsmail. Craiglist might have something to say about that.
There is no official API for Leboncoin, neither alert option, explaining the creation of the op website.
Yes there is no official API , basically the tool scrap HTML website content, I don't know if that is legal or illegal according to EU laws.
but its like scrapping Google search result, and I remember that it was illegal in the US law.
I think leboncoin.fr has the right to ask him to stop the service. but they also have to offer an API to the developers who seek to tweak the service .
I think leboncoin.fr has the right to ask him to stop the service. but they also have to offer an API to the developers who seek to tweak the service .
They have to? I don't think so...
Next time build a browser extension or a mobile app.
This way the traffic comes from all your users, not one single IP address and you have a better chance to stay off the radar.
This way the traffic comes from all your users, not one single IP address and you have a better chance to stay off the radar.
Scraping is clearly covered by robots.txt, one of the earliest conventions on the web. In their case (http://www.leboncoin.fr/robots.txt) they allow the spiders from most commercial search engine, but disallow all others.
I think it's a terrible idea from Schibsted (the Norwegian owners of the company) to react like this; but then again, lawyers...
I think it's a terrible idea from Schibsted (the Norwegian owners of the company) to react like this; but then again, lawyers...
Leboncoin is so badly made it's a joke, and they completely monopolize the market. I'm raging just thinking I'm gonna have to use it to look for an apartment and sell my furniture in Bordeaux those next months. Makes me want to build a competition.
Salut confrère Bordelais!
The thing is that with 24 M+ listings and a free basic service, no one will ever be able to compete. Maybe alternatives would be possible if limited to a specific area.
The weak spot of leboncoin is that you need to pay a stranger before getting your stuff. There is a non negligible portion of scam.
If you want a hand...
The weak spot of leboncoin is that you need to pay a stranger before getting your stuff. There is a non negligible portion of scam.
If you want a hand...
Hello Bordeaux, Ici Rennes.
LeBonCoin spent like 2M€ in adwords the year they started. I've seen them grow like crazy. I really doubt someone can compete head to head with them today. That would need to be very disruptive or very niche.
LeBonCoin spent like 2M€ in adwords the year they started. I've seen them grow like crazy. I really doubt someone can compete head to head with them today. That would need to be very disruptive or very niche.
Leboncoin is also filled with stolen goods. I've spent quite a while researching used bikes there and I've visited a couple shady characters with garages full of bikes…
Comparing with a similar search on Craigslist in Boston, I'd say that leboncoin is much worse in this respect, and that's saying something.
Comparing with a similar search on Craigslist in Boston, I'd say that leboncoin is much worse in this respect, and that's saying something.
> I'm raging just thinking I'm gonna have to use it to look for an apartment
Holy first world problems batman!
Holy first world problems batman!
Well you don't need it to find an apartment, there are alternatives.
I see Leboncoin as Craiglist, they are ugly etc but they just work.
I see Leboncoin as Craiglist, they are ugly etc but they just work.
This is a challenge I would gladly undertake with you if you have a plan. I'm from Bordeaux too btw ;)
That being said I wrote my own scraper & mail notifier for the same site to find an appartment about 1 year ago (it was june too) and it proved very valuable. I was notified on my mobile right when ads went online and was always first to call. I quickly found a nice place, affordable, direct to the owner and without all the paper hurdles. The code was in python and one of my friends may still have it around if you're interested.
I am interested!
I wanted to write a python wrapper (scraper) for leboncoin, but building a new one is tempting.
to sum up the author of the news and recipient of the mail cannot read french correctly.
It is a cease and desist letter on the use of a name «lebonXXX.fr» that in all due respect seem is a clear parasitism of a registred brand: it bears a similar name, it is related to the activity of the original site. And le boncoin.fr is registered @ l'INPI (national registration office of brands).
In PI law, the infringement is about the confusion that results in the brand aka reputation and not on the use of an external API.
It does not mean I support leboncoin, because I could not care less. @ least I don't appreciate people misleading others based on fake victimisation.
Cher jonathan: en matière de droit «nul ne peut se prévaloir de ses propres turpitudes»
It is a cease and desist letter on the use of a name «lebonXXX.fr» that in all due respect seem is a clear parasitism of a registred brand: it bears a similar name, it is related to the activity of the original site. And le boncoin.fr is registered @ l'INPI (national registration office of brands).
In PI law, the infringement is about the confusion that results in the brand aka reputation and not on the use of an external API.
It does not mean I support leboncoin, because I could not care less. @ least I don't appreciate people misleading others based on fake victimisation.
Cher jonathan: en matière de droit «nul ne peut se prévaloir de ses propres turpitudes»
You have a point, but even if the author rebranded his website, he would still violate the TOS when providing direct links to listings (and maybe when scraping the website but this is not clearly forbidden in the TOS).
The discussion is mostly about this (I think).
Who cares about TOS? They're not binding to users in any way whatsoever, unless the users want it to be binding (i.e., as a contract to buy goods/services from them according to that ToS)
The service can disable their accounts (if any exist) and block their IP's; the service can stop doing any business with them if they don't like the ToS; but the service can ask them to comply, but can't really demand that they comply with ToS, it's not a law nor a contract that they've agreed to.
The service can disable their accounts (if any exist) and block their IP's; the service can stop doing any business with them if they don't like the ToS; but the service can ask them to comply, but can't really demand that they comply with ToS, it's not a law nor a contract that they've agreed to.
This would be another infraction :)
And the author is misdirecting the readers by providing a document not related to the claim he makes (TOS infringement vs «droit des marques» infringement).
EDIT/PS «nul ne peut se prévaloir de ses propres turpitudes» means that you cannot prevail your self of any wrongs if it is initially resulting from you not respecting the law. For instance if you build your company on a clearly fraudulent base (parasitism), you cannot claim for any reparation if you are shut down because it is a clear consequence of your actions. As a result, for the lawyer «faisceau de présomption valant preuve» his credibility in front of any juridiction would be voided.
And the author is misdirecting the readers by providing a document not related to the claim he makes (TOS infringement vs «droit des marques» infringement).
EDIT/PS «nul ne peut se prévaloir de ses propres turpitudes» means that you cannot prevail your self of any wrongs if it is initially resulting from you not respecting the law. For instance if you build your company on a clearly fraudulent base (parasitism), you cannot claim for any reparation if you are shut down because it is a clear consequence of your actions. As a result, for the lawyer «faisceau de présomption valant preuve» his credibility in front of any juridiction would be voided.
This other infraction is also clearly mentionned in the lawyer letter.
Hi Julie,
I do not claim anything, nor do I victimize myself, I just stated the obvious namely that leboncoin.fr dosen't like my webapp. The letter is theirs.
It might be possible to register a domain with INPI but not a wildcard like lebonXXX.fr
You might be right though, which is why I complied and removed all mention of their brand name and any functionality related to it from my site as soon as I received their letter.
I do not claim anything, nor do I victimize myself, I just stated the obvious namely that leboncoin.fr dosen't like my webapp. The letter is theirs.
It might be possible to register a domain with INPI but not a wildcard like lebonXXX.fr
You might be right though, which is why I complied and removed all mention of their brand name and any functionality related to it from my site as soon as I received their letter.
Cher Jonahtan,
You can call me Julien, I am a girl on the internet for it is more efficient to get answers to technical questions from geeks and it is funnier for trolling.
The cease and desist is NOT about the app. It is about parasitism of the brand.
The use of the API is secondary, but just a part of a proof in a dispute based on the claim of a brand that you are parasiting their immaterial actif called BRAND.
But you don't seem to know how french law works:
* the «raison sociale» of a company has not to be different from another company (ex: Mont Blanc = pen + desert + city), it has to be considered not too close on the naming and on the «secteur d'activité» to be considered parasitism. When you received your kit for funding your society (for instance @chambre de commerce), it is written black on white how the naming of a society should be done. Any brain dead accountant like mine even told me it is wise when choosing a «raison sociale» to first pay a (way too expensive) check into the INPI DB.
* a brand at the opposite of a software is not protected at his divulgation, but at its «territorial» registering (hence INPI and strong advice to make a search at the creation that given your SIRET no company has a name close to yours because else, parasitisme is almost already proven)
* the added presumption of an act are enough to be a proof (faisceau de présomption vaut preuve)
* AND you are dumb enough to make money in the sillon of leboncoin.
Constituting EXACTLY what the french law call parasitism.
I don't support them, but you are legally dumb or dishonest.
I would have respected you if :
* either you had been smart (making money from leboncoin, but registering the brand in a country where leboncoin had not registered (tuvalu? trinidad & tobago)) (remember the territorial part of the brand)
* either you were saying : I know I broke the law, but I think infringing (c) law is stupid because ....
BTW brand are covered by an international convention, so it would have been the same if leboncoin was german, US, or russian.
The cease and desist is NOT about the app. It is about parasitism of the brand.
The use of the API is secondary, but just a part of a proof in a dispute based on the claim of a brand that you are parasiting their immaterial actif called BRAND.
But you don't seem to know how french law works:
* the «raison sociale» of a company has not to be different from another company (ex: Mont Blanc = pen + desert + city), it has to be considered not too close on the naming and on the «secteur d'activité» to be considered parasitism. When you received your kit for funding your society (for instance @chambre de commerce), it is written black on white how the naming of a society should be done. Any brain dead accountant like mine even told me it is wise when choosing a «raison sociale» to first pay a (way too expensive) check into the INPI DB.
* a brand at the opposite of a software is not protected at his divulgation, but at its «territorial» registering (hence INPI and strong advice to make a search at the creation that given your SIRET no company has a name close to yours because else, parasitisme is almost already proven)
* the added presumption of an act are enough to be a proof (faisceau de présomption vaut preuve)
* AND you are dumb enough to make money in the sillon of leboncoin.
Constituting EXACTLY what the french law call parasitism.
I don't support them, but you are legally dumb or dishonest.
I would have respected you if :
* either you had been smart (making money from leboncoin, but registering the brand in a country where leboncoin had not registered (tuvalu? trinidad & tobago)) (remember the territorial part of the brand)
* either you were saying : I know I broke the law, but I think infringing (c) law is stupid because ....
BTW brand are covered by an international convention, so it would have been the same if leboncoin was german, US, or russian.
they did the same thing to lebitcoin.fr last year
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/26352-le-bon-coin-demande-a...
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/26352-le-bon-coin-demande-a...
It's interesting to see that they allow http://www.site-annonce.fr to use their ads.
I think there is a lack of a geolocalisation service on the lbc website.
I know that http://www.spothers.com/fr/ is working on it. A umpteenth tentative to beat lbc.
I think there is a lack of a geolocalisation service on the lbc website.
I know that http://www.spothers.com/fr/ is working on it. A umpteenth tentative to beat lbc.
Correct me if I am wrong, but maybe one way to look at the CFAA or situations like this one is that every website has the right to deny access to any particular user.
This can be done via firewall ruleset but also via cease and desist letter.
That seems reasonable.
But... for this type of approach to make sense with respect to a website that wants as much traffic as posssible, we have to make certain assumptions.
One assumption is that few if any users will automate their usage.
If hundreds of people began to write their own "apps" to automate how they use this website, then the lawyers would have a more serious problem that they might not be able to solve.
The website operators might have to reconsider their access model.
Could they move to a subscription-only service?
Could they use a whitelist of IP address blocks?
Could they still be competitive if they began to move away from open access?
In my opinion, the practicality of the cease and desist letter approach to website access (anyone can access except if we tell you to stop) is reliant on expected patterns of usage.
When kids learn how to program in school, should that day ever come, then they will learn how to automate. They wil be able to write their own "apps".
Will cease and desist letters and the judicial system be fully automated at that point? (The evolution of the DMCA comes to mind.)
The RIAA and others have tried to sue large groups of users all at once and it did not achieve anything except bad PR. Could website operators bring proceedings against large numbers of users and succeed?
This can be done via firewall ruleset but also via cease and desist letter.
That seems reasonable.
But... for this type of approach to make sense with respect to a website that wants as much traffic as posssible, we have to make certain assumptions.
One assumption is that few if any users will automate their usage.
If hundreds of people began to write their own "apps" to automate how they use this website, then the lawyers would have a more serious problem that they might not be able to solve.
The website operators might have to reconsider their access model.
Could they move to a subscription-only service?
Could they use a whitelist of IP address blocks?
Could they still be competitive if they began to move away from open access?
In my opinion, the practicality of the cease and desist letter approach to website access (anyone can access except if we tell you to stop) is reliant on expected patterns of usage.
When kids learn how to program in school, should that day ever come, then they will learn how to automate. They wil be able to write their own "apps".
Will cease and desist letters and the judicial system be fully automated at that point? (The evolution of the DMCA comes to mind.)
The RIAA and others have tried to sue large groups of users all at once and it did not achieve anything except bad PR. Could website operators bring proceedings against large numbers of users and succeed?
Anyone care to explain, to the non-french-speaking crowd, exactly what leboncoin is? And what the letter says?
This is our craiglist. And they also have the craiglist of many other countries. The website op made crawls leboncoin and other websites to look for specific items for people. The letter mentions both the use of a "closely" related name and the linking of listings as in violation of the TOS.
Thanks!
That's, fairly crazy.
That's, fairly crazy.
Hi Johnathan, they deliberately don't want to provide email alerts or even a decent search because that would break their rather excellent business models (users spend hours browsing pages of listing rather than searching which drives page views and ads impressions). They killed a site similar to yours a few years ago (leboncoinrss or something along the lines I believe). I wouldn't try to base a business on something which hijack the user experience they have created. On my spare time I'm scrapping their site to do some data analysis and so far despite the traffic I generate no problem. Let me know if you want to discuss that.
Hello,
I am now building some kind of (read) API to the website.
The work is in progress, and on a restricted area (one country) I am able to index all pages in near real time (near...).
Maybe someone of you may be interested into some info or collaboration ?
Here is my email jhin2g9e8o2ik7j at jetable dot org
Bye Lbr
I am now building some kind of (read) API to the website.
The work is in progress, and on a restricted area (one country) I am able to index all pages in near real time (near...).
Maybe someone of you may be interested into some info or collaboration ?
Here is my email jhin2g9e8o2ik7j at jetable dot org
Bye Lbr
I have mailed you
leboncoin.fr is known for developing all necessary tools internally. So... they should hire this guy, that's all! losers...
An extract (translated to English): "no hyperlink TO [our site] can be done without prior agreement". I hope they're suing Google too :)