Ask HN: I'm a burned-out developer. Who should I talk to?
I'm burned-out. I talked to a career counselor who didn't know what to say to me, because I told him that I was sick of IT, software development, and anything related to them. He was used to just helping people polish themselves, not to tell them what they should do. He is one of the top two in the area, so I lost some hope there. I'm now thinking of going to a psychiatrist. I've been this way for about ten years. Not sure where to turn. Whether or not I get meds for depression, I am going to need to get a different career. I've asked for help on HN before, but the only advice I got was to lay pipe. Is there a career counselor that specializes in burned out developers that have no other portable skills, no hope, no dreams, and no idea what else to do?
14 comments
I once worked with a programmer who stood up from his desk, walked to the parking lot, and then kicked every single window out of his car. I guess he was a little stressed! But who knew? When the cops arrived, I was the only one who stood up for the guy.
In order not to fire him immediately, the CTO elected me take him to a psychologist. Guy invites me into the session, the sum of which was "go home on time, leave the computer off, and every night, walk until your feet hurt."
Within one week, he was well-rested, smiling and happy. I won't say back to his normal self, because he was a pretty weird dude!
When I felt I was burning out, I tossed my computers, reduced my belongings to a bag, and moved out to a farm to learn goat-herding. It was a deep, soul-recharging experience. I found that in my old city life, I was weak, dumb and blind. I couldn't think and I couldn't hear. When I left there, I felt like Moses, with all kinds of deep insights and shit. And I was healthy as an ox.
Unfortunately, not everyone will make such a radical change. They will have a bunch of excuses, or are looking for a more convenient solution. You know, the same kind of fear, feelings of obligation, and other flawed thinking which gets us into these things in the first place.
My friend, you need good food, sleep, time where you turn everything off, and plenty of exercise. Everything else is just a band-aid.
If the shit hits the fan, all you have is your family and your health, so you get yourself healthy. Scrub toilets and be grateful for it, if that is what you need to do. Level your pride and repair. Opportunity will be waiting for you when you are feeling better and ready for it.
In order not to fire him immediately, the CTO elected me take him to a psychologist. Guy invites me into the session, the sum of which was "go home on time, leave the computer off, and every night, walk until your feet hurt."
Within one week, he was well-rested, smiling and happy. I won't say back to his normal self, because he was a pretty weird dude!
When I felt I was burning out, I tossed my computers, reduced my belongings to a bag, and moved out to a farm to learn goat-herding. It was a deep, soul-recharging experience. I found that in my old city life, I was weak, dumb and blind. I couldn't think and I couldn't hear. When I left there, I felt like Moses, with all kinds of deep insights and shit. And I was healthy as an ox.
Unfortunately, not everyone will make such a radical change. They will have a bunch of excuses, or are looking for a more convenient solution. You know, the same kind of fear, feelings of obligation, and other flawed thinking which gets us into these things in the first place.
My friend, you need good food, sleep, time where you turn everything off, and plenty of exercise. Everything else is just a band-aid.
If the shit hits the fan, all you have is your family and your health, so you get yourself healthy. Scrub toilets and be grateful for it, if that is what you need to do. Level your pride and repair. Opportunity will be waiting for you when you are feeling better and ready for it.
Go to a psychiatrist if you think you need medication, but everything else people are recommending are things that would be more efficiently done by talking to a psychologist/therapist. I am dealing with burnout myself right now, and as I've had therapy before, I was able to utilize those skills I learned in getting myself through the first 6 months.
But... understanding myself didn't help with avoiding the trap I fell into that caused all this - I got screwed over by a 100% sociopath, and even though right now I can "see" how my blind spots were preventing me from properly dealing the situation, I still am going to go to a therapist to work out not the "understanding" of what went on, but to deal with the emotional impact of it all - it is much easier to do so with the help of someone and not by yourself
I'm certainly not recommending years of therapy - tell the therapist you're interviewing you see no need for sessions about your mommy and daddy (if you don't think that was a factor). You have a general goal - to get over the burnout, understand how you fell into it, and to figure out the next direction you want to go in (right?). Then a good therapist would draw boundaries around that - e.g. 10 sessions, then check to see how complete the goal is. Thus you need not get drawn into years of psychoanalytical blah blah. IF the therapist pushes you to do otherwise, then they are not the right one for you.
I too am conflicted on what I want to do next, and I need to understand my ambivalence - then hopefully I will get the confidence or energy needed to tackle the problem. But there is no need for extensive navel gazing at this time.
But... understanding myself didn't help with avoiding the trap I fell into that caused all this - I got screwed over by a 100% sociopath, and even though right now I can "see" how my blind spots were preventing me from properly dealing the situation, I still am going to go to a therapist to work out not the "understanding" of what went on, but to deal with the emotional impact of it all - it is much easier to do so with the help of someone and not by yourself
I'm certainly not recommending years of therapy - tell the therapist you're interviewing you see no need for sessions about your mommy and daddy (if you don't think that was a factor). You have a general goal - to get over the burnout, understand how you fell into it, and to figure out the next direction you want to go in (right?). Then a good therapist would draw boundaries around that - e.g. 10 sessions, then check to see how complete the goal is. Thus you need not get drawn into years of psychoanalytical blah blah. IF the therapist pushes you to do otherwise, then they are not the right one for you.
I too am conflicted on what I want to do next, and I need to understand my ambivalence - then hopefully I will get the confidence or energy needed to tackle the problem. But there is no need for extensive navel gazing at this time.
A psychiatrist will almost certainly try to remediate your feelings of burnout, rather than help you identify what you'd rather be doing instead - but if you're depressed, you should still go see one. I'm pretty surprised to hear how useless the career counselor was; that must have sucked. If you can afford to consult one of the best in the industry, does that also mean you can afford to (metaphorically) lie on a beach for several months until you develop alternative interests?
What do you do in your spare time - read, watch movies, follow sports...? If so, what are your preferences? Also, while I don't suggest wallowing in your feelings of depression, it is worth learning to listen to your depressed mental monologue for clues about whatever-it-is that you are not doing because you're stuck on an IT treadmill, 'eg 'to think that I used to dream of being an Olymic figureskater but I ended up writing middleware....grar...'. Most likely you still have dreams, but being mired in depression means everything is covered in a sludge of negativity and you 'know' that none of them are achievable now so that you have trained yourself not to let your imagination run free.
What do you do in your spare time - read, watch movies, follow sports...? If so, what are your preferences? Also, while I don't suggest wallowing in your feelings of depression, it is worth learning to listen to your depressed mental monologue for clues about whatever-it-is that you are not doing because you're stuck on an IT treadmill, 'eg 'to think that I used to dream of being an Olymic figureskater but I ended up writing middleware....grar...'. Most likely you still have dreams, but being mired in depression means everything is covered in a sludge of negativity and you 'know' that none of them are achievable now so that you have trained yourself not to let your imagination run free.
I don't really have a lot of motivation, so what I do with my spare time is to waste it. I am naturally talented musically, but have little formal training, and I can't feed my family with that. I don't have enough money to lie on a beach for an extended time without fucking my savings.
Good advice about trying to let go of the things that are holding me back. I've thought more about going back to school, but not sure what I'd want to study.
Good advice about trying to let go of the things that are holding me back. I've thought more about going back to school, but not sure what I'd want to study.
Well, music is indeed a super-risky career since the bimodal distribution skews towards Poverty....Megabux, although as someone who makes electronic music I am only familiar with the left end of that graph ':->
But it would give you something nice to do outside of work, and you can leverage technology as much or as little as you prefer. This would at least 'stop the rot' by compensating yourself for The Job You Hate in the short term, and might help you open up mentally to other possibilities int he longer term. If you're naturally talented you certainly have an edge over me.
But it would give you something nice to do outside of work, and you can leverage technology as much or as little as you prefer. This would at least 'stop the rot' by compensating yourself for The Job You Hate in the short term, and might help you open up mentally to other possibilities int he longer term. If you're naturally talented you certainly have an edge over me.
I wouldn't discard your IT career just now. You're likely to be hating some particular aspects of your current job (long hours/little vacation? monotonny? stupid management? dull coworkers? feeling of isolation?). If I were you, I'd try to pinpoint them and try to work myself into a position (most likely by changing jobs, maybe going into a different specialisation) where they aren't such an issue. Even if that transition isn't easy to accomplish, it'll give you some goal to strive for, which in itself works wonders for mental well-being.
Please, don't make any long range decisions like school right now. Try a week of walking out in the sunshine and fresh air whenever you have time, instead of just wasting the spare time. This will help you sleep, and sleep will help everything.
It may be hard to find someone who understands your situation very well, but I would recommend trying to find the small nuggets of insight or underlying thought you can find from those you speak to about it.
Anecdotally, I consider myself lucky to have been convinced to see a psychiatrist (after considering it frequently over the previous decade). After a few months on medication, a few talks with some friends and colleagues about what was going on (and discovering that some of them have had similar experiences), I started to get a degree of perspective I hadn't felt before about my relationship to work. Not terribly much longer I started doing side projects for fun, after years of declining interest in pretty much everything I used to enjoy.
Finding a job you enjoy can be hard and take some time, even if not considering a career change. I would caution against wholesale avoiding using your existing skills - they may be useful as a way into a new job that will afford you an opportunity to try get closer to something you are interested in trying out. Also, trying a totally different type of organisation, if available, is also something to try, even if using the same set of skills, since often people enjoy doing things more with the right people, or with the right mission or feeling of doing good in the world. (So, maybe a charity/non-profit, or a family concern instead of a "company".)
Try not to be too afraid of taking incrementally-closer-to-what-you-want jobs as you find them (ie, always be looking and talking to companies), even if it means only spending a few months at one or two companies on the way (assuming your previous career shows a stability future employers might want to find).
(I'm happy to speak to you offline if you like - my contact details are in my profile.)
Anecdotally, I consider myself lucky to have been convinced to see a psychiatrist (after considering it frequently over the previous decade). After a few months on medication, a few talks with some friends and colleagues about what was going on (and discovering that some of them have had similar experiences), I started to get a degree of perspective I hadn't felt before about my relationship to work. Not terribly much longer I started doing side projects for fun, after years of declining interest in pretty much everything I used to enjoy.
Finding a job you enjoy can be hard and take some time, even if not considering a career change. I would caution against wholesale avoiding using your existing skills - they may be useful as a way into a new job that will afford you an opportunity to try get closer to something you are interested in trying out. Also, trying a totally different type of organisation, if available, is also something to try, even if using the same set of skills, since often people enjoy doing things more with the right people, or with the right mission or feeling of doing good in the world. (So, maybe a charity/non-profit, or a family concern instead of a "company".)
Try not to be too afraid of taking incrementally-closer-to-what-you-want jobs as you find them (ie, always be looking and talking to companies), even if it means only spending a few months at one or two companies on the way (assuming your previous career shows a stability future employers might want to find).
(I'm happy to speak to you offline if you like - my contact details are in my profile.)
2 best years of my 20s were spent getting away from computers altogether. I quit programming in that time and got back in with help from some old coworkers offering me a job. This was after I had a) finished my degree, b) travelled south america, and c) rode around the US on a motorcycle. Get away from computers is my advice.
Something similar has happened to me during last 6 months... but 10 years - man, you are in your own category. The biggest issue is that after a while you get used to that time wasting, you simply start living like that.
The only thing that I can advise (and that helped me a bit) is to make a change, ANY change. Even picking something addictive like http://na.leagueoflegends.com and playing it helps if you make a __realistic__ goal (I'll get to XX elo) and then follow up to getting to that point. Satisfaction mostly comes from making the goals you set and probably your biggest problem was that you had no motivation even to set the goals (that's why I suggested something addictive in which it'll be easy to get motivation for goal setting).
The only thing that I can advise (and that helped me a bit) is to make a change, ANY change. Even picking something addictive like http://na.leagueoflegends.com and playing it helps if you make a __realistic__ goal (I'll get to XX elo) and then follow up to getting to that point. Satisfaction mostly comes from making the goals you set and probably your biggest problem was that you had no motivation even to set the goals (that's why I suggested something addictive in which it'll be easy to get motivation for goal setting).
I'm 37, picked up League of Legends last year, totally addicted. But I find the mental exercise involved with playing is worth the time invested. Plus, it's fun to play with the surprising amount of my friends who also play. I second the recommendation to pick up the LoL addiction.
10 years?! You obviously aren't going to just push through. I would think about other roles you could move in to within your company (management, business development, sales, QA, sysadmin) as it is more likely that someone who knows you will take a risk on you in a different role. If the thought of that is nauseating perhaps you should consider a development role at a different company in a wildly different industry. Perhaps a new setting with a completely different set of people, problems, technologies etc. would help.
It is hard to give very specific advice without knowing more about your particular situation.
It is hard to give very specific advice without knowing more about your particular situation.
Have worked in a variety of situations and companies and currently not in a company where I could transition to anything else. I have thought about becoming a technical writer, but I've heard you can't just hop into it- they expect you have a relevant degree and experience. Basically, this career has fucked my chance of doing anything else but something related to technology.
I am assuming then that you are fairly dependent on your current salary level. Painting houses was one of the most satisfying jobs I have ever held. Perhaps lowering your monthly burn rate could open other opportunities outside your current field.
My man! I feel you. I burned out a while back. I'd made some bad choices, and I was really sick of coding. It was that way for several years, at least 5.
I turned to sales engineering. A few years ago I noticed that I'd gotten better at socializing and social interaction, and, more importantly, at the end of a day where I spent a lot of time with people, rather than my computer, I felt more energetic.
As a sales engineer you can make a similar salary and leverage all of your skills and your abilities. What do you think?
I turned to sales engineering. A few years ago I noticed that I'd gotten better at socializing and social interaction, and, more importantly, at the end of a day where I spent a lot of time with people, rather than my computer, I felt more energetic.
As a sales engineer you can make a similar salary and leverage all of your skills and your abilities. What do you think?
[deleted]
Throwaway. Similar position to OP. What was your experience in getting started in sales engineering?
I love the goat-herding idea, but here's something that may help you short of taking such a big step. Grab a plastic garbage bag, and go walk two miles out along a road, and then on the two miles back, pick up all the garbage you can.
(It's not a solution to all your problems, it's just an experiment to see how it affects your consciousness.)
(It's not a solution to all your problems, it's just an experiment to see how it affects your consciousness.)
I faced the same issue 3 years ago. So I decided to change job and apply for Sales Engineer.
Yes, it's very difficult to switch from software engineering to sales/marketing field. But I learnt a lot more about software engineering when I worked as Sales guy.
Currently I work as Software Developer cum Sales Engineer.
Yes, it's very difficult to switch from software engineering to sales/marketing field. But I learnt a lot more about software engineering when I worked as Sales guy.
Currently I work as Software Developer cum Sales Engineer.
DMAE. Worth a try. For many people, cures minor burnout in a couple of days. Maybe a six month course would change your life: note the long history of clinical use for developmental disorders, and its current over-the-counter status.
Like @wilbertliu if you would like to chat we can. DM me on twitter @mattwritescode with some contact information if you like.
Want to talk and chat? Would be glad to help :)