North Korean Officials Flood to China, Possible Mass Defection(koreabang.com)
koreabang.com
North Korean Officials Flood to China, Possible Mass Defection
http://www.koreabang.com/2013/stories/north-korean-officials-flood-to-china-possible-mass-defection.html
13 comments
How would it work to 'flush' out malcontents within PRK? It's not like they have freedom of information. How would this even be reported? Surely this information, be it true of false, has arisen from Chinese or South Korean sources
Perhaps higher level officials in the North Korean government can avail themselves of uncensored Internet access? It's possible.
I also wonder about the degree of Western propaganda at work too. Stories about the evilness of specific regimes conveniently saturate the press before governments want to take action.
I am not so sure you have to go about inventing stuff to target North Korea though. Anything you invent is going to be nowhere near as batshit as the official pronouncements of the regime itself.
Given that a couple of decades of nuclear weapons testing and posturing didn't cause any action, I don't think this is going to be the trigger.
For anybody unaware, there is a whole network of sites like this that translate native language stories and commentary into English (depends on the editors, but the content varies from serious news stories like this to silly/interesting slice-of-life stuff from reaction on internet forums).
China: http://www.chinasmack.com Indonesia: http://www.indoboom.com Russia: http://www.russiaslam.com Japan: http://www.japancrush.com Korea: http://www.koreabang.com
China: http://www.chinasmack.com Indonesia: http://www.indoboom.com Russia: http://www.russiaslam.com Japan: http://www.japancrush.com Korea: http://www.koreabang.com
I've checked twice in the last hour, and so far I'm not seeing any uptake of this story by any other news organization. One of the best illustrations of what a tyrannical country the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is is the news vacuum most of the world encounters when trying to find out what's going on there. The ruling party doesn't want the common people of north Korea to know what's going on in their own country, so pervasive censorship and government surveillance make it difficult for anyone to find out what's going on there. I look forward to the day when the people of north Korea can make a transition to civil liberty and democratic, constitutional government.
Wouldn't verification of this story just require talking to the North Korean expatriates in China, though? They have no particular reason to censor their speech.
> They have no particular reason to censor their speech.
They're possible asylum seekers in a nominally allied state, who've (supposedly) fled a totalitarian regime that's shown no compunction about assassinating critics abroad. I can see why they'd not either make their location known, nor wish to talk to foreign media.
And that's assuming the story is true.
They're possible asylum seekers in a nominally allied state, who've (supposedly) fled a totalitarian regime that's shown no compunction about assassinating critics abroad. I can see why they'd not either make their location known, nor wish to talk to foreign media.
And that's assuming the story is true.
China officially don't take North Korean refugees. Once you're identified there's a real risk of being deported back to North Korea.
I don't know how long can they keep them ignorant, given the constant technological advancements. For example mobile phones were banned, but are legal now and a lot of people have them.
You're forgetting than most NK people are brainwashed from birth and have for 3-4 generations how wonderful NK is and that the rest of the world is so awful.
I've found myself arguing that point before, but brainwashing is a difficult topic. I now think it's wrong to claim it, because while the media in PRK obviously lies with intent and that is propaganda, most there probably do not have a frame of reference, and think their situation is what it is and do the best with what they have.
Are North Koreans brainwashed any more than a U.S. citizen? Here in Norway the opinion seems to say: No.
But who are we to judge?
Are North Koreans brainwashed any more than a U.S. citizen? Here in Norway the opinion seems to say: No.
But who are we to judge?
I'm guessing you've never actually seen/heard any of the propaganda they hurl over the NK/SK dmz border via massive loudspeakers have you? It is pretty blatant indoctrination to a level we don't remotely come do in America.
The most "indoctrination" we do in America is perhaps having children in school recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag every morning.
I'm sorry, but America doesn't "brainwash" people remotely to this level:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307937/North-Korea-...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/north-korea-death-ca...
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4885931/north-...
If you think America does, you are mistaken. I'm not judging right or wrong, only that people often don't choose in their own best interests. Especially if their frame of reference is horribly skewed from blatant government brainwashing.
The most "indoctrination" we do in America is perhaps having children in school recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag every morning.
I'm sorry, but America doesn't "brainwash" people remotely to this level:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307937/North-Korea-...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/north-korea-death-ca...
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4885931/north-...
If you think America does, you are mistaken. I'm not judging right or wrong, only that people often don't choose in their own best interests. Especially if their frame of reference is horribly skewed from blatant government brainwashing.
Eh, US propaganda is generic "rah rah we have the freest greatest people".
For example, an American citizen can read your claims about America's flaws. A NKian can't.
NK propaganda is "we have the highest per capita income".
For example, an American citizen can read your claims about America's flaws. A NKian can't.
NK propaganda is "we have the highest per capita income".
Still, it's an unstable arrangement that moves toward an equilibrium of more freedom, commerce... and food.
It's hard to get any footage out of North Korea but Rimjingang Media employs North Korean civilians to take hidden camera into North Korea. The footage returned are shocking.
http://www.asiapress.org/rimjingang/english/
http://www.asiapress.org/rimjingang/english/
Oh wow, those comments were interesting to read. Why the hostility towards North-korean spies? That spy program must have an exceptionally low success rate given that once you're outside North Korea, you will find out what the state of your country actually is compared to the rest of the world, and then what motication would you have to do your job?
The only thing I can think of that would keep them in check is that their family is being held hostage, but that would also make all of them extremely motivated to become double agents?
The only thing I can think of that would keep them in check is that their family is being held hostage, but that would also make all of them extremely motivated to become double agents?
1. True believers of the Juche idea are more likely to get postings abroad, and brainwashing from childhood is remarkably effective,
2. The lack of regimented lifestyle and strictly formalized social interactions can make the outside world as frightening to some North Koreans as living in North Korea would be to us, [1]
3. You must return with enormous amounts of hard currency to pay bribes to everyone involved in sending you abroad, so you're kind of constantly hustling, and probably too focused on those daily practical necessities to think about radically changing your life, [1]
4. Some spies do defect, the real defection rate probably isn't publicized by anyone on either side. [2]
[1] These themes are hit upon in some of the "inside NK" lit, I especially liked "A Year in Pyongyang." A bit dated, but NK nonfiction holds up well with age, and it's all free online: http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang_1.html
[2] Former NK spy: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/29/former-north-korean-sp...
[1] These themes are hit upon in some of the "inside NK" lit, I especially liked "A Year in Pyongyang." A bit dated, but NK nonfiction holds up well with age, and it's all free online: http://www.aidanfc.net/a_year_in_pyongyang_1.html
[2] Former NK spy: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/29/former-north-korean-sp...
Read here about a sushi chef from Japan that worked for the Kims:http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201306/kim-jong-i...
Thanks for the read. The story felt surreal.
Why not do research on it instead of just putting forward your uninformed opinion?
As it turns out the North Korean spy program is actually surprisingly successful. It has been responsible for everything from terrorist attacks that have downed airliners (Korean Air Flight 858) to assassination attempts on the South Korean Prime Minister (Blue House Raid, Rangoon bombing) to abductions of foreign nationals so that they can be used as teachers or laborers in North Korea.
And that's aside from their covert weapons trade including trade in missile and WMD technology. Iran's long range ballistic missile systems, for example, are based mostly off of DPRK technology.
As it turns out the North Korean spy program is actually surprisingly successful. It has been responsible for everything from terrorist attacks that have downed airliners (Korean Air Flight 858) to assassination attempts on the South Korean Prime Minister (Blue House Raid, Rangoon bombing) to abductions of foreign nationals so that they can be used as teachers or laborers in North Korea.
And that's aside from their covert weapons trade including trade in missile and WMD technology. Iran's long range ballistic missile systems, for example, are based mostly off of DPRK technology.
This is why many (including me) believe that US's greatest defense against foreign terrorists attacking US soil is to make the US so supportive of immigrants that attackers would just defect on arrival.
Ever heard of the Amish? Some people aren't all that impressed with the state of the wider world or have any interest in its pleasures.
Gosh, why doesn't everyone want to have the same ruling government, the same local culture, and the same new iPhone? Bellies will be full too!
Gosh, why doesn't everyone want to have the same ruling government, the same local culture, and the same new iPhone? Bellies will be full too!
The Amish do that by choice.
Based on my limited experience of Korean culture (I have a dozen or so Korean friends) the number of Koreans who would willingly choose to live a primitive lifestyle is....minimal.
Based on my limited experience of Korean culture (I have a dozen or so Korean friends) the number of Koreans who would willingly choose to live a primitive lifestyle is....minimal.
Do Amish children do that by choice? But you missed my point.
How much do you know of North Korea? Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's? Do you think the spies live a primitive lifestyle? Do you think these athletes live a primitive lifestyle? http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_k... How many people in Pyongyang do you think live a primitive lifestyle? And if they suddenly learned of the outside world (assuming they were completely ignorant beforehand!) they would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned -- in other words, the same types of problems, if perhaps of different local magnitudes. They might also notice a bunch of problems they don't have. They may even just see some of their own problems as caused by the West and reinforce their distaste.
My point is that it's ridiculous to suggest one's way of living will be instantly recognized as superior by someone else one assumed to have an inferior lifestyle. It's also ridiculous to imagine no one in North Korea actually believes in the legitimacy of the government and its goals.
How much do you know of North Korea? Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's? Do you think the spies live a primitive lifestyle? Do you think these athletes live a primitive lifestyle? http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/north_k... How many people in Pyongyang do you think live a primitive lifestyle? And if they suddenly learned of the outside world (assuming they were completely ignorant beforehand!) they would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned -- in other words, the same types of problems, if perhaps of different local magnitudes. They might also notice a bunch of problems they don't have. They may even just see some of their own problems as caused by the West and reinforce their distaste.
My point is that it's ridiculous to suggest one's way of living will be instantly recognized as superior by someone else one assumed to have an inferior lifestyle. It's also ridiculous to imagine no one in North Korea actually believes in the legitimacy of the government and its goals.
"Are you under the impression their culture is the same as the South's?"
Korean culture is at least 2,000 years old, and yes, it's quite homogeneous.
"They would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned"
What in the world are you talking about? Their entire country is an impoverished prison/slave-state, and it's estimated that 2-3 million North Korean people starved to death as recently as the 1990s.
So, yeah, I'm pretty sure they'd see the outside world as superior.
Too bad they're not given the chance to make that decision for themselves, isn't it?
A good rule of thumb on whether people actually want to live in a country: go to the border and check to see how many of the guns are pointed inward.
Korean culture is at least 2,000 years old, and yes, it's quite homogeneous.
"They would probably notice the impoverished, the starving, the homeless, the unjustly imprisoned"
What in the world are you talking about? Their entire country is an impoverished prison/slave-state, and it's estimated that 2-3 million North Korean people starved to death as recently as the 1990s.
So, yeah, I'm pretty sure they'd see the outside world as superior.
Too bad they're not given the chance to make that decision for themselves, isn't it?
A good rule of thumb on whether people actually want to live in a country: go to the border and check to see how many of the guns are pointed inward.
Age of the named culture notwithstanding, the cultures have become divergent in the last 40 years due to the Kim family as well as the extremist christian nationalists. You make these broad generalizations about a group of people we as "the world" know very little about. Many Jews in Ukraine were supportive of the Nazi invasion due to the awful treatment received from the Russians. Iraq was a complete wreck, and America still managed to have thousands of adversaries. There are many examples of people acting irrationally in the face of "the facts" of their situation. Your border comment is colorful but misleading. You act as if the guns are cemented pointing one direction.
What "broad generalizations" would those be?
That South Korea allows people to leave if they want, while North Korea doesn't?
That millions of North Koreans have been starved to death or otherwise murdered by their own government?
Sorry, those are facts, your attempts to change the subject notwithstanding.
That South Korea allows people to leave if they want, while North Korea doesn't?
That millions of North Koreans have been starved to death or otherwise murdered by their own government?
Sorry, those are facts, your attempts to change the subject notwithstanding.
Good job sighting your sources.
For you to just say, "i know a few Koreans" and "they are 2 thousand years old and therefore predictable" are the generalizations i mentioned.
I am not arguing that NK is doing anything right. Far from it. I just happen to have some familiarity with the subject (my uncle is an adopted Korean refugee, i live in a place that is 30%+/- Korean, i can read more than a web page). It is an ugly problem, but it is the way it is now because of the US and China. Both the North and The South have had dictators and have caused unnecessary trouble to the other. As an American, i want to stay on the side of human rights and personal liberty. Through that lens, both governments are shit (...as well as US and most of Europe.)
For you to just say, "i know a few Koreans" and "they are 2 thousand years old and therefore predictable" are the generalizations i mentioned.
I am not arguing that NK is doing anything right. Far from it. I just happen to have some familiarity with the subject (my uncle is an adopted Korean refugee, i live in a place that is 30%+/- Korean, i can read more than a web page). It is an ugly problem, but it is the way it is now because of the US and China. Both the North and The South have had dictators and have caused unnecessary trouble to the other. As an American, i want to stay on the side of human rights and personal liberty. Through that lens, both governments are shit (...as well as US and most of Europe.)
"Good job sighting your sources."
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
Also:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Korean_peninsula_at_n...
"Both the North and The South have had dictators and have caused unnecessary trouble to the other"
The fact remains that South Koreans are allowed to leave the country, and North Koreans aren't, your attempts to spin some kind of bogus moral equivalence between "dictators" notwithstanding.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
Also:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Korean_peninsula_at_n...
"Both the North and The South have had dictators and have caused unnecessary trouble to the other"
The fact remains that South Koreans are allowed to leave the country, and North Koreans aren't, your attempts to spin some kind of bogus moral equivalence between "dictators" notwithstanding.
So your only metric for "better" is the ability to leave? How do refugees fit into your world view?
[Edit]Excellent links. So much reading to do. Thank you. If the argument of which side of Korea is Better Korea, then it is obvious that it is the South. If the argument is about which side of Korea is Best Korea, then there is no debate.
[Edit]Excellent links. So much reading to do. Thank you. If the argument of which side of Korea is Better Korea, then it is obvious that it is the South. If the argument is about which side of Korea is Best Korea, then there is no debate.
Many Jews in Ukraine were supportive of the Nazi invasion
I can't imagine that the honeymoon period lasted all that long, given what the Nazis did in the Ukraine. Are you a crazy person?
I can't imagine that the honeymoon period lasted all that long, given what the Nazis did in the Ukraine. Are you a crazy person?
Do Amish children do that by choice?
Amish children aren't Amish. You have to choose to be Amish as an adult, they are exceedingly strict about that.
edit - If the Amish did mysteriously find themselves in charge of North Korea all of a sudden, by the rules of the Amish within about a year or so, depending on the harvest, there would be a very small Amish state in the middle of a brand new country that would rather confusingly now be called England.
Amish children aren't Amish. You have to choose to be Amish as an adult, they are exceedingly strict about that.
edit - If the Amish did mysteriously find themselves in charge of North Korea all of a sudden, by the rules of the Amish within about a year or so, depending on the harvest, there would be a very small Amish state in the middle of a brand new country that would rather confusingly now be called England.
> Do Amish children do that by choice?
Yes, actually. During Rumspringa, they choose whether they want to be members.
Yes, actually. During Rumspringa, they choose whether they want to be members.
What a nice of keeping the community stable and getting rid of the children on whom the brainwashing didn't take.
Presumably you are happy with the brainwashing you received?
Or did you think your current culture is somehow special and the best one ever?
It's utterly disgusting how people call everyone else's culture except their own "brainwashing". Religious? Brainwashed. Atheist? Brainwashed. Likes sports? Brainwashed.
The only time you can legitimately call "brainwashing" is in a culture where there is one "master" person, and everyone else is utterly obedient to them.
Or did you think your current culture is somehow special and the best one ever?
It's utterly disgusting how people call everyone else's culture except their own "brainwashing". Religious? Brainwashed. Atheist? Brainwashed. Likes sports? Brainwashed.
The only time you can legitimately call "brainwashing" is in a culture where there is one "master" person, and everyone else is utterly obedient to them.
It's not brainwashing, that's true. Not for any of the reasons you mention though - I think I'll stick with the generally accepted definition rather than yours - but rather because children are an unwritten page.
To wilfully distort their view on reality deserves a pejorative term, in any case. I guess it's being done by adults who are victims of the same process themselves.
To wilfully distort their view on reality deserves a pejorative term, in any case. I guess it's being done by adults who are victims of the same process themselves.
> To wilfully distort their view on reality
And what exactly makes you think that your view on reality is the super best most correct and perfect one?
From their point of view you are the one with a distorted view on reality and perhaps your children should be taken from you before you warp them.
Do you really not see this? Or are you so stuck in your viewpoint that it's utterly impossible for you to imagine anyone having a different viewpoint?
And what exactly makes you think that your view on reality is the super best most correct and perfect one?
From their point of view you are the one with a distorted view on reality and perhaps your children should be taken from you before you warp them.
Do you really not see this? Or are you so stuck in your viewpoint that it's utterly impossible for you to imagine anyone having a different viewpoint?
You are attacking a straw man in these posts, attempting to paint a nasty picture of someone you know nothing about.
I know what you are trying to say, and I am old enough to both have experience with people looking down on and attacking my culture, and to see young adults run away in fear because of idiotic notions instilled in them by their culture. I have seen how a lot of control over these kids is through misuse of the kids' trust in their elders.
THEIR ability to see other viewpoints has been damaged beyond repair, for many of them for most of their life. And thus their culture is maintained.
Anyway, enough of this.
I know what you are trying to say, and I am old enough to both have experience with people looking down on and attacking my culture, and to see young adults run away in fear because of idiotic notions instilled in them by their culture. I have seen how a lot of control over these kids is through misuse of the kids' trust in their elders.
THEIR ability to see other viewpoints has been damaged beyond repair, for many of them for most of their life. And thus their culture is maintained.
Anyway, enough of this.
Are you really comparing the Amish to the north korean? Are you insane?
I think you missed my point too. Anyway, who says I can't pass "the Amish" and "the north korean" to compare() along with a custom comparator function? Apples can be compared to oranges, you know. For instance, both apples and oranges are fruit, oranges are more orange than apples...
As someone who has spent time with Mennonites as well as Amish i am inclined to agree with you. We wonder if they see the phones and music and bright lights and get depressed or disgruntled. They wonder if we notice the insulation from emotions, they dissolution of our basic family structure, our disobedient and spoiled children, and our ballooning bodies. Perspective is a very important aspect when predicting peoples reactions, and most of the time, we amerifats are just convinced we have it better.
I got your point, but it is sad to see how pervasive the western dominance ideology is, as illustrated by someone calling you insane for being unexpected. Interesting, but largely sad.
I got your point, but it is sad to see how pervasive the western dominance ideology is, as illustrated by someone calling you insane for being unexpected. Interesting, but largely sad.
The Amish do not have multi-generational prison sentences for disobedience, you just get asked to leave.
North Korea is not some peasant utopia that just wants to be left alone, it is a nuclear armed totalitarian state that constantly prepares its citizenry for a ficticious total war.
As for your self titling of we amerifats are just convinced we have it better, well, this belies a core truth, many people suspect you might well have it better simply by so many people in your culture being able to get so fat.
There is a massive difference from a society trying to live simply and one in abject poverty due to mismanagement by a series of crazed mass murderers.
North Korea is not some peasant utopia that just wants to be left alone, it is a nuclear armed totalitarian state that constantly prepares its citizenry for a ficticious total war.
As for your self titling of we amerifats are just convinced we have it better, well, this belies a core truth, many people suspect you might well have it better simply by so many people in your culture being able to get so fat.
There is a massive difference from a society trying to live simply and one in abject poverty due to mismanagement by a series of crazed mass murderers.
I have read through your comments on this thread. I will respond but i want you to know that i think you are a troll. The worst kind, actually, because you think you actually have a point. You are an undercover troll. you are the Sharon Valeri of trolls. Believing this, i waited for the thread to become vacant to respond to you, you silly billy.
You seem to know very little about the Amish, as everything you have stated about them is Wikipedia grade generalities. They do not need to imprison anyone, as they could just kick anyone out. The system is staggeringly effective, especially if you raise people to believe they belong somewhere but the must make the right series of choices to stay where they belong.
North Korea actually is a peasant utopia that wishes to be alone. (largely peasant population, check. a completely fanciful view of their existence in regards to the world at large, check. wishes to be left alone, infini-check.)
>NK is a nuclear armed totalitarian state that constantly prepares its citizenry for a fictitious war. I should email your previous comments to Kim Jong Un; he could use them as justification for sabre rattling. Your observation could be applied to Israel, Pakistan, India, China, and the United States. If you subtract the Nuclear capability, it could be said about every nation on earth with a standing military. The point of a standing army is not the wars you fought, but the ones you will fight.
>...being able to get so fat. There are fatties everywhere. It boggles the mind.
>...by a series of crazed mass murderers. I want to be very clear about this, and i do not want you to be confused about what i am saying:
You are a shill and a simpleton, and you may not play with my blocks, because i do not want to have to wash off the stupid that will inevitably get all over them from your copious amounts of naivety.
You seem to know very little about the Amish, as everything you have stated about them is Wikipedia grade generalities. They do not need to imprison anyone, as they could just kick anyone out. The system is staggeringly effective, especially if you raise people to believe they belong somewhere but the must make the right series of choices to stay where they belong.
North Korea actually is a peasant utopia that wishes to be alone. (largely peasant population, check. a completely fanciful view of their existence in regards to the world at large, check. wishes to be left alone, infini-check.)
>NK is a nuclear armed totalitarian state that constantly prepares its citizenry for a fictitious war. I should email your previous comments to Kim Jong Un; he could use them as justification for sabre rattling. Your observation could be applied to Israel, Pakistan, India, China, and the United States. If you subtract the Nuclear capability, it could be said about every nation on earth with a standing military. The point of a standing army is not the wars you fought, but the ones you will fight.
>...being able to get so fat. There are fatties everywhere. It boggles the mind.
>...by a series of crazed mass murderers. I want to be very clear about this, and i do not want you to be confused about what i am saying:
You are a shill and a simpleton, and you may not play with my blocks, because i do not want to have to wash off the stupid that will inevitably get all over them from your copious amounts of naivety.
Oh, I think you left a rubber duck. If you don't mind, I'm going to keep him and name him Derek.
Kepp him. I didn't want him anyway.
...stupid duck.
sniff
...stupid duck.
sniff
forced comparision.
I hate democracy, but I will choose it over any other method for transfer of power. The only credit I can give to democracy is, it ensures transfer of power without bloodshed and in a civilized manner, rest is all crap as we know it.
Given that people in general are often confused, disorganised and prone to bouts of extreme irrationality for extended periods of time and this seems to apply at all sections of society, I am pretty amazed really that we have any ways of even slightly reliably transferring power without bloodshed.
Democracy isn't perfect, but neither are people when you get down to it, I mean, I used to be annoyed with how rubbish a lot of stuff is, but the more I pay attention to how people actually are, the more cheerfully impressed I am that anything works at all.
Democracy isn't perfect, but neither are people when you get down to it, I mean, I used to be annoyed with how rubbish a lot of stuff is, but the more I pay attention to how people actually are, the more cheerfully impressed I am that anything works at all.
It's not on Chosun Ibo and that is the most reliable source for actual defections and general DPRK instability warning.
http://english.chosun.com/
http://english.chosun.com/
Chosun Ilbo might sometimes have some information, but they are basically South Korea's Fox News. You can trust them to have more misinformation than anyone else.
A typical example: in 1998, Chosun Ilbo led a witch hunt against a liberal historian (Choi Jangjip) based on one of his history paper contained the phrase "...thus Kim Il-Sung made the historic decision of invading South Korea." Chosun Ilbo's rationale: only good things can be called "historic". Choi just described Kim's invasion as a historic decision. Clearly he thinks North Korea was right in starting the Korean War: he's a commie!
Apparently the Korean wikipedia has a whole article on the shitness of Chosun Ilbo: http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A1%B0%EC%84%A0%EC%9D%BC%EB%...
These "conservatives" also have been saying North Korea will fall any day since Kim Il-Sung died in 1994, so take their "instability warning" with a grain of salt. Somehow the NK government keeps defying everybody's hope that it would die (or change) someday.
A typical example: in 1998, Chosun Ilbo led a witch hunt against a liberal historian (Choi Jangjip) based on one of his history paper contained the phrase "...thus Kim Il-Sung made the historic decision of invading South Korea." Chosun Ilbo's rationale: only good things can be called "historic". Choi just described Kim's invasion as a historic decision. Clearly he thinks North Korea was right in starting the Korean War: he's a commie!
Apparently the Korean wikipedia has a whole article on the shitness of Chosun Ilbo: http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A1%B0%EC%84%A0%EC%9D%BC%EB%...
These "conservatives" also have been saying North Korea will fall any day since Kim Il-Sung died in 1994, so take their "instability warning" with a grain of salt. Somehow the NK government keeps defying everybody's hope that it would die (or change) someday.
It's basically the 386 generation (just like Intel 386!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/386_Generation in Korea, now holding the jobs as professors, teachers, politicians, lawyers and judges that arouse a lot of suspicion from the previous generation which were right wing unlike the 386 who are left wing. The 386 were largely responsible for electing a left wing government from 1998 to 2003, and 2003 to 2008. That's 10 years of anti-American, pro-sunshine policy (billions of slush funds sent to North Korea used to build their ICBM today) which has largely turned into a gun pointed at South Korea. Because of the naive blinding trust that South Korean left wings placed in Nouth Korea, it has resulted in an increasingly dangerous standoff with North Korea (supposedly has mini nukes now thanks to the 1998~2008 administration), much of South Korea understandably has growing animosity towards left-wing supporters. I admit, there is a blanket identification with left-wing being pro-North Korea which is simply not true, but this is unfortunately the case with South Korea, where herd mentality is still rampant.
The fear of North Korean support within South Korea from the left leaning group is well founded. Recently, a member of the national assembly was found to have been part of a group called RO (Revolutionary Organization, how original) and evidence of coordinated sabotage on sensitive infrasturcture in case a war breaks out with the North. RO was found to have been in contact with North Korean agents in the United States.
It's no wonder the 'red scare' is very real in Korea. The list of spies currently operating in South Korea is in the unknown figure but widely suspected to be hiding in plain sights (if a national assemblyman was actively promoting terrorism, imagine where else they could be).
Various professors and educational board in South Korea have been caught attempting to change the history of Korean War by putting North Korea in a favorable light.
The list goes on and on.
However, I would agree Chosun Ilbo is the most right wing out of all.
I think that there is even more chance of collapse in Korea because of the recent purge (Jang was China's go-to-guy, practical and a moderate), Kim Jong Un would be unbridled and trigger happy and that their revenue streams have taken a toll. All the more reasons to build
The fear of North Korean support within South Korea from the left leaning group is well founded. Recently, a member of the national assembly was found to have been part of a group called RO (Revolutionary Organization, how original) and evidence of coordinated sabotage on sensitive infrasturcture in case a war breaks out with the North. RO was found to have been in contact with North Korean agents in the United States.
It's no wonder the 'red scare' is very real in Korea. The list of spies currently operating in South Korea is in the unknown figure but widely suspected to be hiding in plain sights (if a national assemblyman was actively promoting terrorism, imagine where else they could be).
Various professors and educational board in South Korea have been caught attempting to change the history of Korean War by putting North Korea in a favorable light.
The list goes on and on.
However, I would agree Chosun Ilbo is the most right wing out of all.
I think that there is even more chance of collapse in Korea because of the recent purge (Jang was China's go-to-guy, practical and a moderate), Kim Jong Un would be unbridled and trigger happy and that their revenue streams have taken a toll. All the more reasons to build
And I should point out West Germany found out after the Germany reunification that East Germany had thousands of spies working for East Germany in West Germany.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/shocking-new-res...
I have NO DOUBT what so ever that there are thousands of spies in S Korea working for N Korea, because of money/ideology/stupidity.
Come on people, the ex national assembly now being tried as a spy REFUSED to sing the S Korean national anthem in national assembly hall, claiming S Korean govt wasn't legit or something of that line. Of course when he was finally exposed and under threat of prison, he sang the S Korean national anthem just fine.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/shocking-new-res...
I have NO DOUBT what so ever that there are thousands of spies in S Korea working for N Korea, because of money/ideology/stupidity.
Come on people, the ex national assembly now being tried as a spy REFUSED to sing the S Korean national anthem in national assembly hall, claiming S Korean govt wasn't legit or something of that line. Of course when he was finally exposed and under threat of prison, he sang the S Korean national anthem just fine.
It's pretty scary....what drives these people I wonder. Is it revenge against Korean society? Is it the honest belief that North Korea is a better place to live? If they believe in it so much, why don't they go over there? Why not experience what it's like to live under the glorious leader that they revere so much? It makes no sense!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_plot_of_UPP_against_S...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_plot_of_UPP_against_S...
South Korea's Democratic Party and presidents Kim Dae Jung & Roh are/were about as "left wing" as Barack Obama is.
In other words, there are a bunch of clueless South Koreans who sincerely believe that they are the pawn of North Koreans, the devil incarnate, the antithesis of freedom and all they are doing is to pave way for North Korean invasion. Or something like that.
* For some inexplicable reason, those "leftist" presidents thought it was very important for South Korea to have modernized military. The result was "Military Reform Plan 2020" (국방개혁 2020), drafted in 2005, which planned to purchase and/or develop billion dollars worth of modern weapons, including submarines, helicopters, aegis destroyers, and what not.
The conservative pro-American president Lee Myung Bak largely put a hold on this plan. Who need modern weapons when you have your "blood-ally" America who will always stand by you and think of you first? They even practically begged the Americans to keep wartime military command of the whole Korean military. (It's a little dirty secret of South Korea: when any war breaks out here, the US generals automatically assumes control of all our military power. What kind of "conservatives" advocate handing the whole military chain of command to another nation?)
By the way, about those "Revolutionary Organization" (yeah, they are a bunch of clueless pro-NK idiots), so far the court decided to reject many of the evidences brought by prosecutors, saying they don't constitute legal evidence. It was clear from the onset that the whole scandal was politically motivated at a very convenient timing (or, rather, a very inconvenient timing, as South Korea's NIS has been under heavy fire for having generated 22 million(!!) tweets during the last presidential election, to sway public opinion and disparage "leftist" candidate Moon. The finest display of patriotism from our "conservatives".)
In other words, there are a bunch of clueless South Koreans who sincerely believe that they are the pawn of North Koreans, the devil incarnate, the antithesis of freedom and all they are doing is to pave way for North Korean invasion. Or something like that.
* For some inexplicable reason, those "leftist" presidents thought it was very important for South Korea to have modernized military. The result was "Military Reform Plan 2020" (국방개혁 2020), drafted in 2005, which planned to purchase and/or develop billion dollars worth of modern weapons, including submarines, helicopters, aegis destroyers, and what not.
The conservative pro-American president Lee Myung Bak largely put a hold on this plan. Who need modern weapons when you have your "blood-ally" America who will always stand by you and think of you first? They even practically begged the Americans to keep wartime military command of the whole Korean military. (It's a little dirty secret of South Korea: when any war breaks out here, the US generals automatically assumes control of all our military power. What kind of "conservatives" advocate handing the whole military chain of command to another nation?)
By the way, about those "Revolutionary Organization" (yeah, they are a bunch of clueless pro-NK idiots), so far the court decided to reject many of the evidences brought by prosecutors, saying they don't constitute legal evidence. It was clear from the onset that the whole scandal was politically motivated at a very convenient timing (or, rather, a very inconvenient timing, as South Korea's NIS has been under heavy fire for having generated 22 million(!!) tweets during the last presidential election, to sway public opinion and disparage "leftist" candidate Moon. The finest display of patriotism from our "conservatives".)
Why go to China when you want to defect to South Korea? I mean I know the obvious answer: the border between the two can't be passed.
But what's in it for China to pass them on to the South?
Also of course, general disclaimer: this may be misinformation by SK to help a perceived revolutionary tide.
But what's in it for China to pass them on to the South?
Also of course, general disclaimer: this may be misinformation by SK to help a perceived revolutionary tide.
Yes, that's why China is helping N Korean agents hunt down and return the would be refugees.
Nah, I doubt even S Korean govt would welcome a reunified korea. The cost and turmoil will be enormous...
Nah, I doubt even S Korean govt would welcome a reunified korea. The cost and turmoil will be enormous...
Horseshit. A reunified Korea would be a global economic powerhouse within a generation, anybody with eyes in their skull can see that. And the humanitarian benefits to the entire population of the North would be immense, turmoil and cost be damned.
A reunified Korea would be a global economic powerhouse within a generation, anybody with eyes in their skull can see that.
Alternatively, combining a modern, hi-tech, highly educated nation of 50 million with a nation of 25 million badly-educated, borderline-starving people, many of whom would never be able to adjust, would cripple the South Korean economy for two generations.
South Korea is an economic powerhouse now. Introducing an extra 50% population of which the vast majority are skilled only in subsistence-level farming with tools other nations abandoned a century ago will not be economically helpful. Maybe if South Korea was at the stage of development in which vast numbers of unskilled labourers underpinned the economy, it would be, but they aren't.
Alternatively, combining a modern, hi-tech, highly educated nation of 50 million with a nation of 25 million badly-educated, borderline-starving people, many of whom would never be able to adjust, would cripple the South Korean economy for two generations.
South Korea is an economic powerhouse now. Introducing an extra 50% population of which the vast majority are skilled only in subsistence-level farming with tools other nations abandoned a century ago will not be economically helpful. Maybe if South Korea was at the stage of development in which vast numbers of unskilled labourers underpinned the economy, it would be, but they aren't.
would cripple the South Korean economy for two generations.
Firstly, that is a nonsensical figure. On what basis do you make a prediction that Korea would take two generations to recover from unification? It has been split up for only slightly longer than that and if you look to history, entire empires have come and gone in the timespan of two generations. Also, it just sounds like more of the same that was said by people about the reunification of Germany.
Firstly, that is a nonsensical figure. On what basis do you make a prediction that Korea would take two generations to recover from unification? It has been split up for only slightly longer than that and if you look to history, entire empires have come and gone in the timespan of two generations. Also, it just sounds like more of the same that was said by people about the reunification of Germany.
Very obviously a nonsense figure, would you say? Really, really obviously a nonsense figure with no evidence, wouldn't you say? Really, REALLY obviously? Funny coincidence too, presenting the timescale in terms of generations, just like in the parent post? I wonder if perhaps that's deliberate...
I deliberately echoed the post I was responding to, but increased it, to illustrate that the original statement was devoid of evidence; in essence, the point was to emphatically and obviously have no evidence of timescale in order to highlight the absurdity of the original post's timescale. You did get the point, though, so I suppose it worked.
I deliberately echoed the post I was responding to, but increased it, to illustrate that the original statement was devoid of evidence; in essence, the point was to emphatically and obviously have no evidence of timescale in order to highlight the absurdity of the original post's timescale. You did get the point, though, so I suppose it worked.
I got the point that your argument was nonsensical, I wasn't aware you were doing it for effect.
What is more, a large section of SKoreans yearn for the reunification. Presumably, there are many in the North that feel the same. This is one of the problems with Governments getting to be the "mouthpiece" for an entire society. Given the way "democracy" works, you tend to get overly solvent, largely isolated ideologues as your representatives. These folks come exclusively from the wealthiest families, and are therefore more inclined to maintain the status quo.
Regardless of the posturing of both sides governments, Korea is one country with a grievous split artificially placed between the two by the warring strongmen placed in their positions by superpowers with limited or non-existent information about the native culture.
I would also like to point out something we tend to forget here. The losses on both sides (excluding UN/Americans) were immense. The climate, terrain, and technology coincided to create massive casualties and widespread suffering. After a shaky armistice, the US just kind of left, but the war never ceased. We as typical Americans feel as if bygones should be bygones (we tend to be best friends with the countries we fight... afterwords, of course), but we oftentimes fail to take into account the massive list of dead.
Anecdote: i was hanging out with a Vietnamese friend from high school and we were (unaccountably) watching Rambo 7 or something (whichever one is the newest/most embarrassing) and we ere both growing increasingly uncomfortable. I kept making comments about cinematography and acting, whilst my buddy just grew more and more aghast. Finally we turned it off. I went on at great length about all the technical reasons i thought the film was poor. Finally, my friend pointed out the amount of Filipino extras that were slaughtered by that 'roided asshole with the wrecked face. And that was it. That was "all" that bothered him. I never really realized before that moment just how callus American storytelling is to the lives of Asians and their struggles. "We" literally killed so many Koreans and Asians in certain battles that left stacks of dead higher than a man stands. Untold numbers were left to die from maneuvers alone.
I do not say this to inspire guilt or launch a recriminatory flame war, but i think it is important that we all consider why the North is so damned sullen and obnoxious. The ear of blaming everything on "communism" needs to end.
Regardless of the posturing of both sides governments, Korea is one country with a grievous split artificially placed between the two by the warring strongmen placed in their positions by superpowers with limited or non-existent information about the native culture.
I would also like to point out something we tend to forget here. The losses on both sides (excluding UN/Americans) were immense. The climate, terrain, and technology coincided to create massive casualties and widespread suffering. After a shaky armistice, the US just kind of left, but the war never ceased. We as typical Americans feel as if bygones should be bygones (we tend to be best friends with the countries we fight... afterwords, of course), but we oftentimes fail to take into account the massive list of dead.
Anecdote: i was hanging out with a Vietnamese friend from high school and we were (unaccountably) watching Rambo 7 or something (whichever one is the newest/most embarrassing) and we ere both growing increasingly uncomfortable. I kept making comments about cinematography and acting, whilst my buddy just grew more and more aghast. Finally we turned it off. I went on at great length about all the technical reasons i thought the film was poor. Finally, my friend pointed out the amount of Filipino extras that were slaughtered by that 'roided asshole with the wrecked face. And that was it. That was "all" that bothered him. I never really realized before that moment just how callus American storytelling is to the lives of Asians and their struggles. "We" literally killed so many Koreans and Asians in certain battles that left stacks of dead higher than a man stands. Untold numbers were left to die from maneuvers alone.
I do not say this to inspire guilt or launch a recriminatory flame war, but i think it is important that we all consider why the North is so damned sullen and obnoxious. The ear of blaming everything on "communism" needs to end.
>> turmoil and cost be damned
Sure, as long as it's Not in your backyard...
Sure, as long as it's Not in your backyard...
The titles in the sidebar:
>Korean Government Turns Its Back on Abandoned Babies
>Korean Woman Kills Stepdaughter By Force Feeding Her Salt
>Man Forces Three Runaway Middle School Girls into Prostitution
Wtf humans? Not that it compares to the atrocities in North Korea.
>Korean Government Turns Its Back on Abandoned Babies
>Korean Woman Kills Stepdaughter By Force Feeding Her Salt
>Man Forces Three Runaway Middle School Girls into Prostitution
Wtf humans? Not that it compares to the atrocities in North Korea.
I think the image in the article may have been photoshopped though.
Regardless, gotta love how Dennis Rodman looks the other way and doesn't give a shit about people.
[deleted]
Here's the original Korean article translated to English
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&prev...
Often South Korean newspapers are the first to get news about North Korea as South Korean intelligence groups have good source of HUMINT gathered from North Korean defectors and officials willing to give up state secrets in exchange for safety and money.
There were notable cases of high ranking North Korean officials defecting to the South, for example Mr. Hwang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Jang-yop) and even Kim Jong-Il's relatives like Mr. Yi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Han-yong) who was gunned down in an elevator while living in South Korea by North Korean agents.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&prev...
Often South Korean newspapers are the first to get news about North Korea as South Korean intelligence groups have good source of HUMINT gathered from North Korean defectors and officials willing to give up state secrets in exchange for safety and money.
There were notable cases of high ranking North Korean officials defecting to the South, for example Mr. Hwang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Jang-yop) and even Kim Jong-Il's relatives like Mr. Yi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Han-yong) who was gunned down in an elevator while living in South Korea by North Korean agents.
Apparently the execution was over who controls profits from their shellfish exports.
You'd think they would maybe feed their people with the profits.
If they get that nuclear bomb in portable form, there is going to be hell with that child at the helm.
You'd think they would maybe feed their people with the profits.
If they get that nuclear bomb in portable form, there is going to be hell with that child at the helm.
> Oh and he was educated in the USA, another one we raised.
Can you supply a source for that claim? I've only read into the the Kim family a bit, but my impression was that most of the family members were educated in other socialist countries or somewhere neutral/friendly like Switzerland.
Can you supply a source for that claim? I've only read into the the Kim family a bit, but my impression was that most of the family members were educated in other socialist countries or somewhere neutral/friendly like Switzerland.
I edited that one out, I was very mistaken. Thinking of someone else.
So is Switzerland a bad place for educating him or only when it's America?
Presumably the "we" is out of place if it's not your country.
If they get a portable nuke, it will still be the same old shit. Even with 10 nuke tipped rockets (they have placed a satellite in orbit, in theory they can make ICBMs) the scenario does not fundamentally change for them. They either pound one city (Seoul) or a dozen, but at most a few days later they are rubble.
Even in their best case scenario, hundreds of nukes on ICBMs, the most they could count on would be a 'mutually ensured destruction' draw.
The only "winning" scenario they have is staying all bark, no bite. Maintaining the status-quo is the best they can do, which is why they've been doing it for decades.
Even in their best case scenario, hundreds of nukes on ICBMs, the most they could count on would be a 'mutually ensured destruction' draw.
The only "winning" scenario they have is staying all bark, no bite. Maintaining the status-quo is the best they can do, which is why they've been doing it for decades.
A Korean Joffrey Baratheon!
I wonder sometimes if these sorts of things are 'leaked' to see if anyone inside the country will flinch and take action, sometimes I wonder if they are wishful thinking on the part of people would like to see the PRK gone. It is always unsettling though to have a nuclear power that is quite unstable near a critical resource to the work (S. Korea). So emphasizing that instability is a great tool for news services to ratchet of the fear views.
Lets consider three possible scenarios:
1) I its a hoax.
Ok, so far (5:30PST) the mainstream press hasn't picked it up (and they would if they had any sort of confirmation). Who benefits? Asia Press?
2) Its disinformation.
So if the PRK "leaked" this to flush out malcontents in the PRK, how would that work? Would people who read this self identify as potential targets and head for the hills? (Thus calling them out as targets for the current government)
3) Its "real"
And there are a bunch of high level military and diplomatic personnel in China waiting to be processed through into the country. What is the PRK reaction? Anger? Retailiation? Do they do something stupid and try to kill their missing minions in China?
All it does it raise questions.