Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/09/26/spaniards-are-less-productive-constantly-tired-because-spain-is-in-the-wrong-time-zone/?hpid=z4
21 comments
> I also know that folks in most of Latin America, India, Thailand, etc. eat at 8-9pm or so
I can only speak for Mexico, but the reason for this is that dinner is not the most important/bigger meal of the day, lunch is.
Mexico: medium breakfast, big lunch, small dinner.
USA: small breakfast, medium lunch, big dinner.
Over here people will just have a sandwich or two for dinner, that's why it doesn't matter if it happens at 8 or 9 p.m.
I can only speak for Mexico, but the reason for this is that dinner is not the most important/bigger meal of the day, lunch is.
Mexico: medium breakfast, big lunch, small dinner.
USA: small breakfast, medium lunch, big dinner.
Over here people will just have a sandwich or two for dinner, that's why it doesn't matter if it happens at 8 or 9 p.m.
Lunch as the primary meal of the day is a staple of Mediterranean cultures. Italy, Spain, Greece, et. al., all have large lunches and small dinners. Latin America is also in many ways a Mediterranean culture so many Latin and Hispanic countries share in that trait.
In every university cantina in Spain you will find a multiple-course lunch. Better yet, (at least in Madrid) every institute has its own cantina, so you can decide between different lunch options: "Wanna go to physics today?", "No, I'll eat at the Ophtamologists".
I don't think this is only applicable to Mediterranean cultures. Eastern Europe seems to follow the same medium/large/small pattern as well.
Hot meals in he afternoon also were common in Western Europe, as is clear from the etymology of the word 'dinner' (via the French 'dejeuner' from the Latin for 'breakfast', which was eaten at noon or thereabouts) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinner:
Originally, dinner referred to the first meal of a two-meal day, a heavy meal occurring about noon.
[...]
In Europe the fashionable hour for dinner began to be incrementally postponed during the 18th century, to two and three in the afternoon, until at the time of the First French Empire an English traveler to Paris remarked upon the "abominable habit of dining as late as seven in the evening".
India also has hot meals during lunchtime (nice story at http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2882-the-incredible-delivery-...)
I think it made sense to have a hot meal during lunchtime in places where the sun may set early at night because cooking in the relative dark would be more dangerous than cooking during daylight (swaying around a burning stick inside a wooden house to search for ingredients, spare wood, etc, is not a good idea)
Originally, dinner referred to the first meal of a two-meal day, a heavy meal occurring about noon.
[...]
In Europe the fashionable hour for dinner began to be incrementally postponed during the 18th century, to two and three in the afternoon, until at the time of the First French Empire an English traveler to Paris remarked upon the "abominable habit of dining as late as seven in the evening".
India also has hot meals during lunchtime (nice story at http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2882-the-incredible-delivery-...)
I think it made sense to have a hot meal during lunchtime in places where the sun may set early at night because cooking in the relative dark would be more dangerous than cooking during daylight (swaying around a burning stick inside a wooden house to search for ingredients, spare wood, etc, is not a good idea)
As do much of England outside of London and much of the American Midwest.
English-speaking cultures use the word "dinner" for the main meal of the day whenever it happens. Cultures that eat breakfast, dinner, and supper have a large midday meal and a small evening meal. Cultures that eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner are the other way around. It just so happens that the English-speaking cultures that make more movies and TV shows (namely London and the coasts) are breakfast-lunch-dinner cultures, so people assume this is normal everywhere.
English-speaking cultures use the word "dinner" for the main meal of the day whenever it happens. Cultures that eat breakfast, dinner, and supper have a large midday meal and a small evening meal. Cultures that eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner are the other way around. It just so happens that the English-speaking cultures that make more movies and TV shows (namely London and the coasts) are breakfast-lunch-dinner cultures, so people assume this is normal everywhere.
Here in Berlin that's what it's like as well. We have a big lunch, at least those of us who work in an office.
In Portugal dinners are like lunches, although we also eat late, but one can probably say we are more Atlantic than Mediterranean.
what's so condescending about the work "quirk"? as far as i'm concerned, the word has never been known to be used in a derogatory manner.
Quirk implies that it's not very common, actually there's a large number of countries that do the same thing.
So I assume your blindness to the possibility of condescension from someone indicating that another countries cultural norms are nothing more than a peculiar idiosyncracy, thus indicating that their own cultural standards should be considered to be the norm, must be just a quirk in your character and nothing to really take particularly seriously then.
(note, this comment is meant illustratively)
(note, this comment is meant illustratively)
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[deleted]
Hogwash.
What about the higher productivity of Scandinavians? They shift back and forth on "time-zones" due to the constant change of amount of light because of the very hash winter. Sometimes with as few as 3 hours of light, not sun, but still maintain the same level of productivity.
Currently, Spanish primetime stretches until after midnight <- Well what about making less time for primetime? Or less siestas?
What about the higher productivity of Scandinavians? They shift back and forth on "time-zones" due to the constant change of amount of light because of the very hash winter. Sometimes with as few as 3 hours of light, not sun, but still maintain the same level of productivity.
Currently, Spanish primetime stretches until after midnight <- Well what about making less time for primetime? Or less siestas?
some of it is due to the really harsh climate. But I guess most of it might be lifestyle.. but then again, wouldn't that be due to climate in the first place?
Harsh climate? The summers where I live are regularly 100+ days of 39C. I don't think it's down to the climate.
I don't think the climate in general is harsh. Maybe for very inland locations, and some places in the northernly parts.
The productivity problem is not about the timezone is about the here all the people work normally 9-13 break until 15 and 15-19 more or less so we spend all the day in office because not all the peole can take the lunch in home.
Pd: yes, we take siesta because we have longs timebreaks.
Pd: yes, we take siesta because we have longs timebreaks.
To back up this argument china should be in five different time zones because the country is so wast, but it is in one time zone and does not seem to suffer from productivity problems.
The so called (in English) "siesta", which in Spanish would be just "the lunch break", is a compulsory long break in many professions. Many would rather close shop at 5 or 6 than at 9pm, but everyone has to do it at once or it won't work.
The solution most would expect to succeed is a legal one: I know of a dev shop that could easily switch to a 9-5 schedule, as many banks and civil servants have already, but it has to keep a split timetable just because management wants it so.
The solution most would expect to succeed is a legal one: I know of a dev shop that could easily switch to a 9-5 schedule, as many banks and civil servants have already, but it has to keep a split timetable just because management wants it so.
[deleted]
> Many would rather close shop at 5 or 6 than at 9pm
Wait, how does extending lunch by an extra hour push closing time by 3-4 hours?
Wait, how does extending lunch by an extra hour push closing time by 3-4 hours?
I guess everyone is slow after a two hour lunch having three or six cervezas for an extra hour or two of the afternoon?
I don't know, that's a good question.
I don't know, that's a good question.
> I guess everyone is slow after a two hour lunch having three or six cervezas for an extra hour or two of the afternoon?
What are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
I'm not accusing anyone of being an alcoholic, I just know what I would be doing if I had a mandatory 2-hour lunch every day! And it's not eating (probably not as much as I do now)
EDIT: On the chance that my ambiguous grammar has got you tied... in the right order, I would be a bit slow for an hour or two in the afternoon, after having three or six cervezas.
EDIT: On the chance that my ambiguous grammar has got you tied... in the right order, I would be a bit slow for an hour or two in the afternoon, after having three or six cervezas.
I know successful people who took advantage and opened his own shop earlier and closed later.
What about the higher productivity of Scandinavians? They shift back and forth on "time-zones"
What? We have summer time (DST) and regular time - just like most other European countries. If you're talking about Scandinavia's location relative to its time zone, most of Scandinavia is within its "natural" time zone [1].
And your "very hard winter" and "as few as 3 hours of light" comments mostly apply to the very Northern (and sparsely populated) parts of Norway and Sweden. The Danish climate is more like the UK's.
The distance from the northernmost part of Scandinavia to the southernmost part is like the distance from Minnesota to Texas, so obviously the climate varies a lot.
1) http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/images/world_t...
What? We have summer time (DST) and regular time - just like most other European countries. If you're talking about Scandinavia's location relative to its time zone, most of Scandinavia is within its "natural" time zone [1].
And your "very hard winter" and "as few as 3 hours of light" comments mostly apply to the very Northern (and sparsely populated) parts of Norway and Sweden. The Danish climate is more like the UK's.
The distance from the northernmost part of Scandinavia to the southernmost part is like the distance from Minnesota to Texas, so obviously the climate varies a lot.
1) http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/images/world_t...
I live 60 degrees north (which is not north enough to be Northern Norway) and the winters do get quite dark. It also gets compounded if you live in a valley, which many/most in my part of the country do. And living near the coast, the climate is so mild that the winter sees little in the way of snow, which makes it even more dark since there is no snow to reflect the sunlight.
Sure, but Denmark's part of Scandinavia, too, and the weather here isn't quite as bad as the commenter suggested.
Did I try to contradict that? My comment was a response to the claim that winters aren't really that dark except for the northern parts of Norway and Sweden, which is not my experience.
I lived in Spain for about a year. Blame it on the time zone, but inherently the culture is "work to live" not "live to work".
I miss it and sincerely cherish that country and all the great people in it.
I miss it and sincerely cherish that country and all the great people in it.
Yet nobody I know in Spain likes the compulsory 2 hour lunch breaks.
Few places do this anymore, it's more common in the south which is insanely hot at mid day
In my experience it is quite normal in Madrid, which does get blazingly hot in the summer but is pretty okay the rest of the year.
Depends on what you're looking at. If it's public-facing, then, yes, but only because demand at those times is very low.
Otherwise, for office work, lunch breaks are short. European style.
Otherwise, for office work, lunch breaks are short. European style.
It is a serious burden if you work in an office which is air conditioned anyway. The most serious problem being that the long (and it was generally 3 hours in the south where I was staying) break is intended for sleeping.
Problem is, most people now don't live 5 minutes walk from their place of work, so there isn't time to get home and sleep before returning to the office. But there is nothing else to do. Everyone else is on the same break. You can't run your errands for the day because everywhere else is shut as well.
As a student living 5 minutes from my classes, I found the dual sleep (usually about 4am til 8am and 1pm til 3pm) with the main meal in the middle of the day to be fantastic, but for modern working conditions and commuters it is a serious problem.
Problem is, most people now don't live 5 minutes walk from their place of work, so there isn't time to get home and sleep before returning to the office. But there is nothing else to do. Everyone else is on the same break. You can't run your errands for the day because everywhere else is shut as well.
As a student living 5 minutes from my classes, I found the dual sleep (usually about 4am til 8am and 1pm til 3pm) with the main meal in the middle of the day to be fantastic, but for modern working conditions and commuters it is a serious problem.
When I entered Barcelona, my heart stayed there. Absolutely stunning city. Not to mention nearly every woman is a 9/10. I remember walking down the beach and joining a drum circle, started playing guitar with them. Someone passes me a joint, the cops roll by, and I tried to play it cool by putting it out and walking really fast away from the circle. I realized nobody was with me, I look back, cops talking to everyone, laughing, asking how their night is. I walked back like an idiot, the cop laughed at me and told me to take a seat, then they just strolled along. Such a small event felt so surreal.
I unexpectedly stumbled upon Mercè this year, and it was a magical experience (I even have a burn from the correfoc to show for it). Barcelona was definitely my favorite of the several European cities I visited during a trip across Europe this past month.
Perhaps that was more of a culture coping mechanism?
With an unemployment rate of a staggering 50% for those under 25, and with 68% of them leaving Spain to find work, and 12% overall unemployment for everyone else: that sounds like a lot of people that don't even have a job.
That's not a good thing, perhaps the attitude of work to live, as said previously, is more of a coping mechanism. Otherwise, maybe this is at the core of their unemployment problems? The more I read about their labor laws, it just sounds bad in Spain. And the youth unemployment problem sounds like a disaster in the making.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_Spanish_financial_crisi...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_Spanish_financial_crisi...
With an unemployment rate of a staggering 50% for those under 25, and with 68% of them leaving Spain to find work, and 12% overall unemployment for everyone else: that sounds like a lot of people that don't even have a job.
That's not a good thing, perhaps the attitude of work to live, as said previously, is more of a coping mechanism. Otherwise, maybe this is at the core of their unemployment problems? The more I read about their labor laws, it just sounds bad in Spain. And the youth unemployment problem sounds like a disaster in the making.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_Spanish_financial_crisi...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_Spanish_financial_crisi...
> Perhaps that was more of a culture coping mechanism?
If it's a new thing, it's a coping mechanism. (I'm pretty sure it's not)
If it's a new thing, it's a coping mechanism. (I'm pretty sure it's not)
more likely it's the opposite, the reason for the unemployment rates and poor GDP is because of this attitude to work. Its like trying find a ton of explanations for something when the big pink elephant in the room is being ignored. Ever since the British defeated their "invincible" Armada Spain has tried to compete with the rest of Europe and struggled, culminating with the current financial crisis. The time zone nonsense has nothing to do with it.
Compare the UK manufacturing sector to the Spanish. The only reason that we are not (yet) in much worse straights than Spain and Italy is because we are the place to route the money through.
On paper the UK has the worst economic exposure in the OECD and produces very little indeed.
We are little more than a service economy for banking at this point, and UK banking has the lion's share of our total debt, dwarfing what is owed by the public sector. Luckily we are considered the stable place, so people continue to put their money here, but I suspect that is more of a confidence trick than anything else.
On paper the UK has the worst economic exposure in the OECD and produces very little indeed.
We are little more than a service economy for banking at this point, and UK banking has the lion's share of our total debt, dwarfing what is owed by the public sector. Luckily we are considered the stable place, so people continue to put their money here, but I suspect that is more of a confidence trick than anything else.
So the roots of the current real state bust may be found in the invincible Armada in the 1600s(BTW nobody in Spain put it that name, and that episode wasn't the end of the war, which didn't end so badly to Spain). Yeah, great analysis, thank you. Trafalgar didn't appeal to you?
The reasons of Spanish underdevelopment during the past centuries are several and have been studied thoroughly and have nothing to do with "being lazy" as you seem to suggest.
I detest how every news that involves Spain is linked to the current crisis. Just 5 years ago Spain was a model of economic growth and progress and we lived at the same Time Zone.
The reasons of Spanish underdevelopment during the past centuries are several and have been studied thoroughly and have nothing to do with "being lazy" as you seem to suggest.
I detest how every news that involves Spain is linked to the current crisis. Just 5 years ago Spain was a model of economic growth and progress and we lived at the same Time Zone.
> the reason for the unemployment rates and poor GDP is because of this attitude to work.
And exactly what attitude to work have Spaniards?
And exactly what attitude to work have Spaniards?
"Everyone in Spain feels jetlagged all the time"
Hahahahaah, I live in Spain and that is bullshit.
Hahahahaah, I live in Spain and that is bullshit.
This isn't a Spanish problem, it's a Southern European problem. You cannot be lazy and expect to lead a good life - the math just won't add up.
Spain has average productivity compared to the rest of the European Union, so you're plain wrong. Check out the data ok oecd.org yourself, if you're not too lazy.
Bullshit. There is exactly zero statistical correlation between the amount of work you do and the quality of life you lead. Furthermore, it is extremely hypocritical to make comments like yours.
In Europe the correlation is rather in the other direction. Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest [edit: oops, actually Dutch [1]].
Here in prosperous Denmark, the official workweek is 37 hours, not 40, and the limit is taken seriously. When we do joint projects with Southern Europeans, they seem to regularly be working weekends and evenings, and get paid less than us for it.
[1] http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
Here in prosperous Denmark, the official workweek is 37 hours, not 40, and the limit is taken seriously. When we do joint projects with Southern Europeans, they seem to regularly be working weekends and evenings, and get paid less than us for it.
[1] http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
> Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest.
Also taking into account GDP divided by population, that implies Greeks get less done per hour than Belgians. To call Southern Europeans ‘lazy’ would be a bit much, but I do think the numbers support that they have a different work ethic from Northern Europeans.
I live in the Netherlands, where people work 30 hours a week on average. Yet, the Netherlands is one of the most productive countries in the world, if GDP (PPP) is to be believed[1]. (Then again, on that chart, Greece is placed only one spot lower, so that may not be the best source.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...
Also taking into account GDP divided by population, that implies Greeks get less done per hour than Belgians. To call Southern Europeans ‘lazy’ would be a bit much, but I do think the numbers support that they have a different work ethic from Northern Europeans.
I live in the Netherlands, where people work 30 hours a week on average. Yet, the Netherlands is one of the most productive countries in the world, if GDP (PPP) is to be believed[1]. (Then again, on that chart, Greece is placed only one spot lower, so that may not be the best source.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...
Sure, I'm simply responding to the "laziness" argument.
Greece's problem is indeed productivity, not lack of hard work. There are a lot of hard-working mom-and-pop shops which put in many hours, but cannot anymore compete in a globalized economy, when their international competitors are streamlined corporations. Here in Denmark we work fewer hours, but rather than work them in a DIY import/export business like is common in Greece, in Denmark those hours are put into a giant globalized logistics business like Maersk. The end result is more productivity, not because the individual Maersk employee is more hardworking while the Greek import/export guy is lazy (the opposite is likely true), but simply because 10,000 mom-and-pop businesses put together cannot compete with a well-oiled machine like Maersk.
Greece's problem is indeed productivity, not lack of hard work. There are a lot of hard-working mom-and-pop shops which put in many hours, but cannot anymore compete in a globalized economy, when their international competitors are streamlined corporations. Here in Denmark we work fewer hours, but rather than work them in a DIY import/export business like is common in Greece, in Denmark those hours are put into a giant globalized logistics business like Maersk. The end result is more productivity, not because the individual Maersk employee is more hardworking while the Greek import/export guy is lazy (the opposite is likely true), but simply because 10,000 mom-and-pop businesses put together cannot compete with a well-oiled machine like Maersk.
I agree. I also think that education level might have something to do with it. As a farmer or factory worker, you’ll likely work hard, but your contribution probably won’t be reflected as much in GDP as an engineer’s work.
For people aged from 25 to 34, Spain has a higher level of tertiary attainment than Germany.
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2013-en/10/01/06...
Personally I think the current economic difficulties are mostly structural, rather than to do with individual attainment or character of the populous. You can have wealthy agricultural societies and you can have poor industrial ones.
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2013-en/10/01/06...
Personally I think the current economic difficulties are mostly structural, rather than to do with individual attainment or character of the populous. You can have wealthy agricultural societies and you can have poor industrial ones.
We have plenty of engineers in spain (me being one).
http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/st...
http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/gr...
http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/st...
http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/gr...
I wasn’t suggesting there aren’t any engineers in Spain. But to compare the Netherlands and Spain using the chart you cited:
Students who graduated in 2010 in the fields of mathematics, science and technology:
The Netherlands: 15,000, on a population of 17 million. At that time, the country had 985 thousand people between the ages of 20 and 24. The percentage of 2010 graduates in STEM fields is 1.5% of that group.
Spain: 25,000, on a population of 47 million. At that time, the country had 3,34 million people between the ages of 20 and 24. The percentage of 2010 graduates in STEM fields is 0.75% of that group.
So, relatively, twice as many Dutchmen graduate in STEM fields than Spaniards and it’s certainly not a new trend. I think it’s safe to say that, relatively, the Netherlands has at least twice as many people who graduated in STEM fields.
Of course, my mention of engineers were just an example. The Netherlands is tiny, Spain is 11 times larger in area. That’s one of the reasons why the Netherlands has a far smaller group of agricultural workers. However, despite it being cramped, the Netherlands has more than half of the GDP Spain has.
Students who graduated in 2010 in the fields of mathematics, science and technology:
The Netherlands: 15,000, on a population of 17 million. At that time, the country had 985 thousand people between the ages of 20 and 24. The percentage of 2010 graduates in STEM fields is 1.5% of that group.
Spain: 25,000, on a population of 47 million. At that time, the country had 3,34 million people between the ages of 20 and 24. The percentage of 2010 graduates in STEM fields is 0.75% of that group.
So, relatively, twice as many Dutchmen graduate in STEM fields than Spaniards and it’s certainly not a new trend. I think it’s safe to say that, relatively, the Netherlands has at least twice as many people who graduated in STEM fields.
Of course, my mention of engineers were just an example. The Netherlands is tiny, Spain is 11 times larger in area. That’s one of the reasons why the Netherlands has a far smaller group of agricultural workers. However, despite it being cramped, the Netherlands has more than half of the GDP Spain has.
And we can start talking about the real worked hours and not the official ones
That's using real worked hours (well, estimates of them by the OECD). In Greece's case the official hours are actually not particularly high for people with regular jobs, just the usual 40 hours/week. But the actual worked hours are quite high, because of the prevalence of unpaid overtime in the private sector, and the large number of mom-and-pop shops that can't afford to hire employees, so work the shop themselves from open 'til close. This contrasts with Northern European work culture, which tends to work exactly the official workweek and not a minute more.
I misremembered Belgium, though; it was the Netherlands that's the lowest in the OECD. Here is the list: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
I misremembered Belgium, though; it was the Netherlands that's the lowest in the OECD. Here is the list: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
Is there anything besides prejudice that makes you say that? Because reports and studies about my country's have consistently shown that the biggest hurdle is incompetent and poorly prepared managers (often the business owners) and institutional corruption, not lazy workers.
Spain has a higher productivity per employed worker than Germany, however since the collapse of the construction industry they have rampant unemployment. The Spanish are not lazy, although your argument certainly is.
http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/southern-european-worke...
http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/jobs-and-productivity-i...
http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/southern-european-worke...
http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/jobs-and-productivity-i...
The productivity is measured in an abstract unit (currency), not the actual quality and quantity of product - thus it is open to distortions (such as abnormally high foreign investment).
Fair enough.
If we ignore the numbers and just look at the situation a little more generally then, Spain has gone through a massive construction boom that was typified by speculative overbuilding, which is part of the current problem now that too much has been built and the real estate prices have collapsed.
Building far too much is not often associated with lazyness on the part of the workforce.
If we ignore the numbers and just look at the situation a little more generally then, Spain has gone through a massive construction boom that was typified by speculative overbuilding, which is part of the current problem now that too much has been built and the real estate prices have collapsed.
Building far too much is not often associated with lazyness on the part of the workforce.
It looks like about half of the countries in that little map are off of their natural time zone by at least as much as Spain. Including basically all of the former Soviet Union, except the Ukraine and Baltics. And Iceland. And, well, France, which mostly overlaps Spain time-zone-wise.
In Russia we also don't have daylight worth speaking of - most of the time of year. Nothing to synchronize to.
Indeed, it seems like an incomplete explanation at the very least.
France largely overlaps Spain in terms of [latitude] longitude, is in the same time zone, shares some of the traditions cited in the article (long lunch break, midddle-of-the-morning and middle-of-the-afternoon coffee breaks, dinner at 8pm), and has one of the highest productivities in the world, in line with the US, Japan or the UK (above if you count it per hour worked).
So maybe they should look for an explanation somewhere else
Edit : fixed latitude instead of longitude
France largely overlaps Spain in terms of [latitude] longitude, is in the same time zone, shares some of the traditions cited in the article (long lunch break, midddle-of-the-morning and middle-of-the-afternoon coffee breaks, dinner at 8pm), and has one of the highest productivities in the world, in line with the US, Japan or the UK (above if you count it per hour worked).
So maybe they should look for an explanation somewhere else
Edit : fixed latitude instead of longitude
You most definitely meant "longitude", not "latitude", right?
I did, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out !
I love to talk about prejudices and cultural biases. I always recommend an excellent paper: Cultural Biases in Economic Exchange http://m.nber.org//papers/w11005 (free download)
Ha! I thought they were going to say that Spain should be in the Eastern Timezone of the United States.
Seriously, the Spaniards I worked with were up until 2am regularly - and the country eats dinner at 10pm at the earliest - yet get up for a 9am workday. Is there any doubt why they are tired?
Seriously, the Spaniards I worked with were up until 2am regularly - and the country eats dinner at 10pm at the earliest - yet get up for a 9am workday. Is there any doubt why they are tired?
Not to mention partying to 6 am. But staying up 'till 2 am is not necessarily a problem if they take a midday nap.
I also have to say in Spain almost 2/3 of PIB is generated by services sector (Turism is a big thing here) and the rest by manufacturing industries and primary sector (Fishing and agriculture) and in services sector the productivity is minor than in the other sector because you can't improve your production with technichal changes, you have to hire more people with the same productivity.
Pd: If you see the stats is not really a problem. The differences aren't so big.
Pd: If you see the stats is not really a problem. The differences aren't so big.
Did the Spanish government commission a study to place their economic woes on a time zone issue?
This feels incredibly hand wavy. I moved to Spain from the UK last year and one of the huge benefits for me is that the hours feel far more natural. I tend to go out fairly late in the evenings (usually 1 or 2), get up earlyish (around 9:30) and then crash for a bit in the afternoon. I naturally tend towards this cycle but obviously in the UK it's a bit difficult (no siesta and the pubs tend to shut about 11:30).
With regards to time spent at home, the Spanish seem to spend a far greater portion of their normal lives socialising. I really don't see how more time spent at home could be listed as a positive thing. In the UK it makes me think of long cold winters when no one wants to leave the house because it's so miserable outside.
With regards to time spent at home, the Spanish seem to spend a far greater portion of their normal lives socialising. I really don't see how more time spent at home could be listed as a positive thing. In the UK it makes me think of long cold winters when no one wants to leave the house because it's so miserable outside.
In this age of software and asynchronous communication, there is little reason to have so few time zones, or to have one 1d timezones rather than 2d. It would be nice if local time continuously skewed a few seconds each day (sometime around three a.m. perhaps) such that sunrise was always at seven a.m. Most (non-cave-dwelling) humans evolved to rise with the sun.
Timezones were introduced exactly to prevent the very thing that you propose: need to adjust clocks a few seconds each day. It was just too annoying.
Sure, but software clocks could adjust themselves automatically based on your GPS location. Almost nobody uses a mechanical clock anymore.
I love when they talk about the magical properties of time zones.
No, moving the clock an hour up or down is not going to have a huge effect into a country in the long term. That's magical thinking.
No, moving the clock an hour up or down is not going to have a huge effect into a country in the long term. That's magical thinking.
I'm Spanish and I've software company. Here is my schedule:
9-14 morning work
14-15 lunch
15-18 evening work
18-20 (aprox) partners-only work
Dunno in construction or other sectors, in consultancy we work more hours and I've never seen anybody taking siesta on labor days. Some people make siesta when 2 of the following 3 things are true: Summer + Old people + Sunday.
9-14 morning work
14-15 lunch
15-18 evening work
18-20 (aprox) partners-only work
Dunno in construction or other sectors, in consultancy we work more hours and I've never seen anybody taking siesta on labor days. Some people make siesta when 2 of the following 3 things are true: Summer + Old people + Sunday.
I don't think that changing the time zone is going to make any productivity or 'family time' change. We work a lot of hours because there are more employees than companies. Market laws.
I think, however, that changing the time zone will improve our reputation. Currently we're at sync with sun time, but from the point of view of a tourist it means that we have lunch, get out of work, have dinner and go to bed at least 1 hour later than on 'normal countries', and this contributes to the fame of 'lazy country'.
Once we change the hour, after a period of adaptation, we will do everything pretty much the same but S&P will come an say... hey! look at Spain, now they deserve credit because they go to bed earlier, we should lend them money!.
Finally, we currently go into work at 9 as everyone else, but for us the sun is at 8. Nobody realizes because we have more sun hours (in winter).
I think, however, that changing the time zone will improve our reputation. Currently we're at sync with sun time, but from the point of view of a tourist it means that we have lunch, get out of work, have dinner and go to bed at least 1 hour later than on 'normal countries', and this contributes to the fame of 'lazy country'.
Once we change the hour, after a period of adaptation, we will do everything pretty much the same but S&P will come an say... hey! look at Spain, now they deserve credit because they go to bed earlier, we should lend them money!.
Finally, we currently go into work at 9 as everyone else, but for us the sun is at 8. Nobody realizes because we have more sun hours (in winter).
What? This doesn't even begin to make sense, just like the article says in the beginning -- Americans are an hour off for the majority of the year, and it doesn't seem to be harming anything.
If there's any kind of special Spanish fatigue, I can't believe it has anything to do with their timezone -- it's the entire cultural thing of sleeping/relaxing at siesta, and staying up late. Spaniards don't work late because of anything to do with the natural setting of the sun, it's the fact that they take a three-hour "lunch"!
Yet somehow the article neglects to mention this at all...
If there's any kind of special Spanish fatigue, I can't believe it has anything to do with their timezone -- it's the entire cultural thing of sleeping/relaxing at siesta, and staying up late. Spaniards don't work late because of anything to do with the natural setting of the sun, it's the fact that they take a three-hour "lunch"!
Yet somehow the article neglects to mention this at all...
Daylight Savings Time drives me into a borderline suicidal apathy for most of the year. Halloween is the perfect prelude to 6 months of stormy irritability for me, during that miserable span of the year when I wake up in darkness, travel home in darkness, and suffer through my miserable hell of 9-to-5 drudgery bathed in a buzzing, artificial flourescent light.
I am an American who lives his life an hour off for the majority of the year, and I will tell you that it pretty much harms everything, from my point of view. But I just sit here and take it.
You see, that's the thing about the apathy this institutionalized circadian chaos and lack of sunlight induces. It immerses you into a hell you can't be bothered to alleviate yourself from. And when you grow up in public schools which heap layer, upon layer of pointlessness atop your life, this is just one more thing, and at some point you just stop caring and capitulate to the stupidity of TV dinners, 2 liter bottles of soda, and mindless sitcoms that you hate but can't stop watching.
It's a sort of perpetual, depressive cabin fever, where there are never any trees or animals or sky. You're ferried back and forth to your stations in life by automobiles, buses, or underground trains, wondering what happened to the timeless but fleeting enthusiasm of summer, and you stare out the window all day, but you'll never feel enough sunlight and wind on your face at the same time during the winter. In my gut there has always been an undeniable sensation that there's something wrong with that. These compulsory, artificial extremes.
I envy you and your life which is so insulated from this annual exercise in negation.
I am an American who lives his life an hour off for the majority of the year, and I will tell you that it pretty much harms everything, from my point of view. But I just sit here and take it.
You see, that's the thing about the apathy this institutionalized circadian chaos and lack of sunlight induces. It immerses you into a hell you can't be bothered to alleviate yourself from. And when you grow up in public schools which heap layer, upon layer of pointlessness atop your life, this is just one more thing, and at some point you just stop caring and capitulate to the stupidity of TV dinners, 2 liter bottles of soda, and mindless sitcoms that you hate but can't stop watching.
It's a sort of perpetual, depressive cabin fever, where there are never any trees or animals or sky. You're ferried back and forth to your stations in life by automobiles, buses, or underground trains, wondering what happened to the timeless but fleeting enthusiasm of summer, and you stare out the window all day, but you'll never feel enough sunlight and wind on your face at the same time during the winter. In my gut there has always been an undeniable sensation that there's something wrong with that. These compulsory, artificial extremes.
I envy you and your life which is so insulated from this annual exercise in negation.
I'm guessing you live in Portland based upon your handle. I live in Seattle and have dealt with SAD-like symptoms every winter for the ten years I've been here. I highly recommend buying a high-lux lightbox. I got one last winter and it marked a sea change in my mood during the darker months.
Please move or at least go get some help instead of posting rants like this.
If Halloween marks the beginning, then I'm afraid it is not Daylight Saving Time which causes your trouble. Rather, it is DST which alleviates it, and you suffer during periods of "natural" time.
DST is in the summer. And now, in the US, much of the spring and fall as well, since it got moved to November and March. Winter time is "natural" time, where wall time corresponds more closely to solar time.
DST is in the summer. And now, in the US, much of the spring and fall as well, since it got moved to November and March. Winter time is "natural" time, where wall time corresponds more closely to solar time.
Hm. This does not quite agree with my experience.
A few years back, when I lived in Madrid, I noticed that this city has an insane grind. To me it looked as if the culture there started off with a "begin work early, have siesta, end work late" setup, but at some point along the way they lost the siesta part.
Many Spaniards work really hard all day, all week, then (at least the young ones) party just as hard all weekend. Repeat ad infinitum.
Don't know about the time zone though. That seems dubious.
A few years back, when I lived in Madrid, I noticed that this city has an insane grind. To me it looked as if the culture there started off with a "begin work early, have siesta, end work late" setup, but at some point along the way they lost the siesta part.
Many Spaniards work really hard all day, all week, then (at least the young ones) party just as hard all weekend. Repeat ad infinitum.
Don't know about the time zone though. That seems dubious.
Right. Siesta on working days? I don't think I've ever meet anyone whose job allows it, except teachers.
The siesta does not reduce the number of hours worked in the day. It just shifts them.
If you actually read the article you'd know that the complaint is that they work too much and that it's because their timezone is out of sync with daylight. Which is what distinguishes their situation from ours here with DST -- we're actually better sync'd with daylight because of it.
If you actually read the article you'd know that the complaint is that they work too much and that it's because their timezone is out of sync with daylight. Which is what distinguishes their situation from ours here with DST -- we're actually better sync'd with daylight because of it.
> it's the entire cultural thing of sleeping/relaxing at siesta,
I'm Spanish, from Barcelona and I don't know anybody that sleeps or relaxes at "siesta" time. Well, I don't know about siesta time.
> it's the fact that they take a three-hour "lunch"!
Also, I don't know anybody that takes a three hour lunch
I'm Spanish, from Barcelona and I don't know anybody that sleeps or relaxes at "siesta" time. Well, I don't know about siesta time.
> it's the fact that they take a three-hour "lunch"!
Also, I don't know anybody that takes a three hour lunch
I spent a couple of weeks in the south of Spain, working... and not everyone actually napped, but everyone certainly took off from about 1-4 pm, or 2-5 depending. A friend of mine doing an MBA in Madrid also talked about a similar gap in the schedule. I'm not Spanish though, I'd love to know about regional/industry differences.
The siesta is alive and kicking in Mexico as well -- a friend of mine who's a well-to-do lawyer in Mexico City, his whole firm takes off 3 hours an afternoon as well, and he explained it's a pretty normal thing to do -- particularly so you can have lunch with your family. Of course, doubling your daily commute has its own problems...
The siesta is alive and kicking in Mexico as well -- a friend of mine who's a well-to-do lawyer in Mexico City, his whole firm takes off 3 hours an afternoon as well, and he explained it's a pretty normal thing to do -- particularly so you can have lunch with your family. Of course, doubling your daily commute has its own problems...
Indeed the article starts in a ridiculous way.
"Everyone in Spain feels jetlagged all the time, even if they haven't been traveling"
I live in the north of Europe now and when I can I take siesta, just I don't do it longer than 25 min. and never too late(around 14:00).
"Everyone in Spain feels jetlagged all the time, even if they haven't been traveling"
I live in the north of Europe now and when I can I take siesta, just I don't do it longer than 25 min. and never too late(around 14:00).
This article ignores the fact that one region in Spain (the Canary Islands) operates on the "correct" time zone. I have lived both in the Canaries and in mainland Spain and I can tell you that there is no appreciable difference in the attitudes described by the article. Spain's problems (if indeed they are problems) are cultural and cannot be attributed to hours of sunlight.
This is clearly just an example of the Spanish parliament looking for a scapegoat for the woeful state of the Spanish economy.
This is clearly just an example of the Spanish parliament looking for a scapegoat for the woeful state of the Spanish economy.
Actually Canary Islands is also in the wrong time zone.
Spain should be in 0 (and France, Moroco, Argelia, etc...) just as UK.
Portucal could chose, since it just in the middle, currently is 0.
Canary Islands should go to -1.
http://www.travel.com.hk/region/time_95.jpg
Anyway, I think it will be a good marketing movement for Spain, as I've explained, so we get rid of a little bit of the lazy country fame.
Spain should be in 0 (and France, Moroco, Argelia, etc...) just as UK.
Portucal could chose, since it just in the middle, currently is 0.
Canary Islands should go to -1.
http://www.travel.com.hk/region/time_95.jpg
Anyway, I think it will be a good marketing movement for Spain, as I've explained, so we get rid of a little bit of the lazy country fame.
Funny, I was just thinking about this earlier today. Specifically, I was comparing the sunrise/sunset times for A Coruña, Spain and Niš, Serbia, two cities that share a time zone despite over 1500 miles between them. (I chose these cities because they're at approximately the same latitude near one of the widest points of the CET zone.) Their respective sunrises are a whole two hours apart:
http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/a-coruna.html
http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/nis.html
The Central European time zone could probably use a bit of fragmentation.
A more extreme example is China, which has been "unified" under one single time zone since 1949, despite the fact that the country's over 3000 miles wide. That makes for a four hour difference in sunrises between east and west. Of course, this is a bit problematic for the west:
http://www.wisegeek.org/why-does-china-have-only-one-time-zo...
http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/a-coruna.html
http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/nis.html
The Central European time zone could probably use a bit of fragmentation.
A more extreme example is China, which has been "unified" under one single time zone since 1949, despite the fact that the country's over 3000 miles wide. That makes for a four hour difference in sunrises between east and west. Of course, this is a bit problematic for the west:
http://www.wisegeek.org/why-does-china-have-only-one-time-zo...
As a Spaniard living in Chicago, I can't stress enough how AWESOME it is to have the time zone we have in Spain and how much I HATE when Sun sets at 4:30 PM in Winter in Chicago, despite being at comparable latitudes. All my Spanish friends here agree with me, if it was up to us we'd change Chicago's timezone to EST! And also for the other side, sun setting at 10 PM in Summer is Happiness with a capital H. Go ask German or British summer tourists, go ask them :)
If that was true that Spaniards are less productive and constantly tired (which is not, as many of HNers have pointed out) it is not because of the time zone. It's simply because of the toxic work culture that exists in most places, more oriented towards "appearance" of working hard, and that means long hours more than plain simple productivity.
Again, don't get the wrong picture. Most companies in Spain do not have siesta, do not stop three hours for lunch, though 45 min-1 hour is usually the norm and I find it better than having lunch at the desk US-style. The problem is that working from 9 AM to 7 PM is the . If you don't do that, even if you're a top performer, you'd be suggested to "improve yourself", simply because people are envious of your sane working hours. So they say, envy is Spain's national sin.
If that was true that Spaniards are less productive and constantly tired (which is not, as many of HNers have pointed out) it is not because of the time zone. It's simply because of the toxic work culture that exists in most places, more oriented towards "appearance" of working hard, and that means long hours more than plain simple productivity.
Again, don't get the wrong picture. Most companies in Spain do not have siesta, do not stop three hours for lunch, though 45 min-1 hour is usually the norm and I find it better than having lunch at the desk US-style. The problem is that working from 9 AM to 7 PM is the . If you don't do that, even if you're a top performer, you'd be suggested to "improve yourself", simply because people are envious of your sane working hours. So they say, envy is Spain's national sin.
This is the real problem. The only way to cope with that is having a job you like. My week is by contract 40 hours long, but I do at least 45 and 50 is not uncommon either.
Spaniard here. I'd rather have the extra sun hour in my free time than having daylight at my first hour in the office. I don't want it to be dark at 17:00 in winter.
This extra-long workday has given us some fun Spanish cultural quirks, like the 9 p.m. dinner hour and the two-hour lunch break.
I know that folks in the US, Germany and some other countries eat at or around 6pm but I also know that folks in most of Latin America, India, Thailand, etc. eat at 8-9pm or so. So why is this considered a 'cultural quirk' ? A little culturally insensitive I must say.