Obama cancels visit with Putin(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Obama cancels visit with Putin
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/07/obama-putin-talks-canceled-snowden
23 comments
The US is like a screaming child throwing a tantrum right now. We were not so long ago lauded as the greatest nation in the world. Now we're stamping our feet and breaking relations with other powerful nations over the stupidest issue. Here's a thought: if you don't want whistleblowers, don't do things that make people blow the whistle.
Maybe in the next few decades we'll learn that meddling in everyone else's business, committing crimes against our own citizens, and blanket bombing other countries doesn't pay off in the end.
Or maybe the US government will become the totalitarian regime it's shaping up to be and keep us under military rule whilst somehow twisting our view with propaganda to make us think it's all for the greater glory (and still constitutional, of course). We do, after all, have to stop terrorism. Surely the best way to do this is to kill/torture people until everyone likes us. You can't do this with a bunch of whiny citizens blubbering about their rights.
My country is really pissing me off right now.
/rant
Maybe in the next few decades we'll learn that meddling in everyone else's business, committing crimes against our own citizens, and blanket bombing other countries doesn't pay off in the end.
Or maybe the US government will become the totalitarian regime it's shaping up to be and keep us under military rule whilst somehow twisting our view with propaganda to make us think it's all for the greater glory (and still constitutional, of course). We do, after all, have to stop terrorism. Surely the best way to do this is to kill/torture people until everyone likes us. You can't do this with a bunch of whiny citizens blubbering about their rights.
My country is really pissing me off right now.
/rant
> We were not so long ago lauded as the greatest nation in the world.
Only Americans ever thought this. The rest was propaganda.
Only Americans ever thought this. The rest was propaganda.
It's not a very good phrase, since "greatest" means whatever the speaker wants it to mean. You could plausibly say that about almost any country - everyone has something they're "the greatest" at.
To be fair, though, I reckon that there was a period in time in which the USA did seem to be holding the generally accepted global flag for "the country that's doing things right". Not perfect, but the USA had a much better reputation than it does now for generally having its shit together and moving in the right direction.
Cracks started to appear in the 1970s, I'd say, and the edifice had completely crumbled by the mid 90s.
To be fair, though, I reckon that there was a period in time in which the USA did seem to be holding the generally accepted global flag for "the country that's doing things right". Not perfect, but the USA had a much better reputation than it does now for generally having its shit together and moving in the right direction.
Cracks started to appear in the 1970s, I'd say, and the edifice had completely crumbled by the mid 90s.
Interesting. Thanks for the perspective. I guess I was never privy to the propaganda until recently when it became really blatant and obvious.
Also, relevant username ;).
Also, relevant username ;).
Absolutely spot on.
And: People are repeating "Never forget." - and at the same time, people seem to have forgotten that there was a time when we had no terrorism (true story!).
The question nobody's asking anymore: What is the reason for terrorism? How did we get there?
Nowadays, fighting some symptons seems to be all we can come up with. (The only reason I can see for this is: Because it's big business.)
And: People are repeating "Never forget." - and at the same time, people seem to have forgotten that there was a time when we had no terrorism (true story!).
The question nobody's asking anymore: What is the reason for terrorism? How did we get there?
Nowadays, fighting some symptons seems to be all we can come up with. (The only reason I can see for this is: Because it's big business.)
I agree there are most likely big business/defense interests behind a lot of this.
But any intelligent person would see that our reaction to terrorism (bombing countries in the Middle East) is only going to create more terrorists. For every terrorist we kill, there are others we kill who are not...what if we kill someone's child? Or even if we kill a child's dog? This is the kind of ill-will that harbors "terrorism" and makes people our supposed enemies.
Of course people are going to hate us if we're bombing them all the time.
So on one end we're trying to stop terrorism by killing every last one of them (heh, good luck) and in reality are trying to provoke more attacks so our government can gain more power in the hopes of "stopping" terrorism. The cycle continues, the contractors win, the government wins, the citizens lose, the terrorists keep fighting.
But any intelligent person would see that our reaction to terrorism (bombing countries in the Middle East) is only going to create more terrorists. For every terrorist we kill, there are others we kill who are not...what if we kill someone's child? Or even if we kill a child's dog? This is the kind of ill-will that harbors "terrorism" and makes people our supposed enemies.
Of course people are going to hate us if we're bombing them all the time.
So on one end we're trying to stop terrorism by killing every last one of them (heh, good luck) and in reality are trying to provoke more attacks so our government can gain more power in the hopes of "stopping" terrorism. The cycle continues, the contractors win, the government wins, the citizens lose, the terrorists keep fighting.
"there was a time when we had no terrorism"
I remember that. I think it may have been a Tuesday.
I remember that. I think it may have been a Tuesday.
It's not the stupidest issue. Absolutely not
Don't you think he's getting some "interesting" visits and talking about "curious" topics?
What else does Edward knows about?
Don't you think he's getting some "interesting" visits and talking about "curious" topics?
What else does Edward knows about?
I'm sure there would be much less "interested" parties in other countries, say in South America? Why would we try to force any planes down supposedly carrying him there if we really wanted him to leave Russia? I would think he'd be a lot easier to extract (via Seal team et al) from a poorer South American country than a superpower like Russia.
Also, if the US hadn't waved around words like "treason" maybe he'd be a bit keener on coming back of his own accord.
I think we've screwed up multiple times here on an issue that, in the grand scheme of things, is fairly petty. Now we're digging ourselves deeper.
Also, if the US hadn't waved around words like "treason" maybe he'd be a bit keener on coming back of his own accord.
I think we've screwed up multiple times here on an issue that, in the grand scheme of things, is fairly petty. Now we're digging ourselves deeper.
Politics and diplomacy is and always has been childish. The US isn't acting any different than any other country has in the same situation.
They're all playing the same game.
They're all playing the same game.
Perhaps you're right, however I hold my country to a higher standard than "I'm not talking to you because, um, you won't give my balloon back!!"
I have lived a short life compared to some, but I've never seen anything that equates to what is happening now.
I have lived a short life compared to some, but I've never seen anything that equates to what is happening now.
> /rant
It's not a rant sir, it's rather a serious thought. Calling it a rant unnecessarily trivializes the problem at hand.
It's not a rant sir, it's rather a serious thought. Calling it a rant unnecessarily trivializes the problem at hand.
The funny thing, is that Snowden got stranded in Russia because his passport was cancelled and other countries got pressed.
And Russia could not extradite him, because when Russia invited (more than once) US to make a extradition pact, US refused.
So, US strand their citizen somewhere else, in a somewhere where they ensured themselves this stranded citizen could not be extradited, and then throw a tantrum.
And Russia could not extradite him, because when Russia invited (more than once) US to make a extradition pact, US refused.
So, US strand their citizen somewhere else, in a somewhere where they ensured themselves this stranded citizen could not be extradited, and then throw a tantrum.
How about every european country refusing to speak with president Obama because there has been "not enough recent progress in our bilateral agenda" citing lack of proof that US gov. has indeed stopped all kind of wire tapping on our communications...
Yeah, I'd like to see other countries do this to US, not US being the one pretending to be "upset" about it.
Surely less dialog with potential adversaries will help the situation.
This kind of posturing is such a clear sign of weakness... It's embarrassing to me as a US citizen.
This kind of posturing is such a clear sign of weakness... It's embarrassing to me as a US citizen.
International politics seem to always be done at the most base level. Our only two options are the carrot and the stick. If an opportunity to use one of those options doesn't present itself, we go home and sulk.
When I first clicked on this I assumed it was over the blatant homophobia in Russia, but no it's over them giving asylum to a whistleblower because if he goes back to the US he will almost certainly spend the rest of his life in jail + 23hrs/day in his cell.
I'm beginning to wonder whether the US even cares anymore about maintaining the illusion of its moral superiority.
Obama, what a disappointment you turned out to be.
UPDATE: That'll teach me for not fully reading TFA. He does mention the homophobia but seemingly in passing. The Snowden issue takes priority, apparently. My points stand.
/politics
I'm beginning to wonder whether the US even cares anymore about maintaining the illusion of its moral superiority.
Obama, what a disappointment you turned out to be.
UPDATE: That'll teach me for not fully reading TFA. He does mention the homophobia but seemingly in passing. The Snowden issue takes priority, apparently. My points stand.
/politics
how about : "we the people approve of Russia's actions and therefore order you, president Obama, to represent us at the summit."
As much as I wish this was an option, there is a very large rift between the US citizens and the US government. It has been separating for years now, and it would take a critical mass of citizens in agreement about something to enact any change.
Unfortunately people are too distracted working or playing farmville to care about what's happening in our country. What's more is our media completely distracts us with things like abortion and gay rights (they are important, mind you, but not as important as constitutional issues that affect basic rights IMO) so that there's no chance of standing next to someone from the other political party. As the citizens become more divided, the government grows stronger. We've seen what it does with this power.
Unfortunately people are too distracted working or playing farmville to care about what's happening in our country. What's more is our media completely distracts us with things like abortion and gay rights (they are important, mind you, but not as important as constitutional issues that affect basic rights IMO) so that there's no chance of standing next to someone from the other political party. As the citizens become more divided, the government grows stronger. We've seen what it does with this power.
Oh great, Obama is pouting.
How about we all flag political articles on HN?
Russia gave Snowden asylum so we hate them now. Obama will still come to the party but he's not going to talk to the birthday boy. You suck Russia! Nerrr!
We're best friends with Sweden now! They raided the pirate bay and ginned up some charges against Assange that almost worked! Sweden's our friend! We're going to Sweden's house!
It's just incredible to me that with all their trillions of dollars, awesome militaries, mighty departments of state and the best advisors money can buy - the actions of these superpowers are basically indistinguishable from the machinations of a high school "popular kids" group.
And I wonder what countries like Sweden actually get, or don't get, from bending over for the USA like this. There has to be something. What's the carrot and/or the stick?
Putin is by all accounts an awful man, a cynical, manipulative politician, a misogynistic, bullying, egotistical prat, but geeze, it's good to see someone, just one head of state, tell the USA where to go. Masterfully played, too, politically. Just when Russia should by all rights be an absolute pariah with its disgusting attacks on homosexuals - they've finessed themselves into the role of protectors of free speech and whistleblowers, darlings of the techno-elite set everywhere. Masterful.